Do you Still want to Trade Back???
by Highspeed30 on Jan 16, 2012 12:11 PM EST
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The Washington Redskins hold the #6 pick in the upcoming draft in April. There is no doubt about the team's biggest need and that is Quaterback. There are 2 top QB prospects in the draft Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III, and then there is the field of 2nd tier QB's Ryan Tannehill, Nick Foles, Brandon Weeden, Kirk Cousins, Brock Osweiler. Most believe that the Indianapolis Colts will not trade the #1 pick and will select Andrew Luck, and that Robert Griffin III will be picked before Washington's #6 pick. So what do you do to solve the QB problem in Washington do u stand pat and hope RG3 fall to you at the 6 spot or do you put together a trade package to move up to the #2 spot with the Rams, or do you trade back and select on of the 2nd tier QB's to solve your QB problem of the last 2 decades?? Well lets look at the top 2 QB's drafted in each draft for the last 10 drafts prior to 2011(cause you need at least 1 more season to evaluate) and see if picking a 2nd tier QB will solve the QB issue here in Washington.
2010 Draft
Sam Bradford Rd 1 #1, Tim Tebow Rd 1 #25
2010 2nd tier
Jimmy Clausen Rd 2, Colt McCoy Rd 3, Mike Kafka Rd 4
2009 Draft
Matthew Stafford Rd 1 #1, Mark Sanchez Rd 1 # 5
2009 2nd tier
Josh Freeman Rd 1 # 17th, Pat White(not a qb in nfl) Rd 2, Stephen McGee Rd 4
2008 Draft
Matt Ryan Rd 1 #3, Joe Flacco Rd 1 # 18
2008 2nd tier
Brian Brohm Rd 2, Chad Henne Rd 2, Kevin O'Connell Rd 3
2007 Draft
JaMarcus Russell Rd 1 #1, Brady Quinn Rd 1 #22
2007 2nd tier
Kevin Kolb Rd 2, John Beck Rd 2, Drew Stanton Rd 2, Trent Edwards Rd 3
2006 Draft
Vince Young Rd 1 #3, Jay Cutler Rd 1 #11
2006 2nd tier
Kellen Clemens Rd 2, Tarvaris Jackson Rd 2, Charlie Whitehurst Rd 3
2005 Draft
Alex Smith Rd 1 #1, Aaron Rodgers Rd 1 #24
2005 2nd tier
Jason Campbell Rd 1 #25, Charlie Frye, Andrew Walter ,David Greene Rd 3, Kyle Orton, Stefan LeFors Rd4
2004 Draft
Eli Manning Rd 1 #1, Phillip Rivers Rd 1 #4, Ben Rothlisberger Rd 1 #11 *
2004 2nd tier
J.P Losman Rd 1 #22, Matt Schaub Rd 3, Luke McCown Rd 4
2003 Draft
Carson Palmer Rd 1 #1, Byron Leftwich Rd 1 #7
2003 2nd tier
Kyle Boller Rd 1 #19, Rex Grossman Rd 1 #22, Dave Ragone Rd 3, Chris Simms Rd 3, Seneca Wallace Rd 4
2002 Draft
David Carr Rd 1 #1, Joey Harrington Rd 1 #3
2002 2nd tier
Patrick Ramsey Rd 1 #32, Josh McCown Rd 3, David Garrard Rd 4, Rohan Davey Rd 4
2001 Draft
Michael Vick Rd 1 #1, Drew Brees Rd 2 #1
2001 2nd tier
Quincy Carter Rd 2, Marques Tuiasosopo Rd 2, Chris Weinke Rd 4, Jesse Palmer Rd 4
* Ben Rothlisberger was considered to be one of the Top QB prospects along with Rivers and Manning, if Matt Barkley entered this year draft he would have been in the Top tier prospects.
There is a big drop off in talent from the top 2 prospects of the draft and the 2nd tier talent. Which one of the 2nd tier QB's would you want to be the Franchise QB or QB of the future??? So trading back and picking up a couple later round picks and getting a 2nd tier QB might not be such a good idea.
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It certainly does not leave me with a desire to trade up
when you see that the list of tier I QBs include:
Tebow
Sanchez
Quinn
Russell
Young
Smith
Leftwich
Carr
Harrington
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
by Redskin44 on Jan 16, 2012 12:26 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
That list is still smaller that the bust that have come in the second round and beyond
Almost every quarterback that was drafted in the second round or later has been a career backup or a bust.
by JeanBaptiste on Jan 16, 2012 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
But its big enough IMO to make the determination that giving up an additional 1,2 and 3 for griffin is not worth the risk. If he falls to 6th great, take him. BTW, If take the following tier II over the tier 1’s
McCoy over Tebow
Freeman over Sanchez
Kolb & Stanton (and Edwards) over Russell & Quinn
Jackson over Young
Campbel, Orton=Smith
Garrard over Carr & Harrington
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
A-mother-fukin-men Mr. JeanBaptiste
I may push to make both you and HighSpeed authors. We NEED guys like you two pumping some sense into the masses.
Crying Lion
this same info has been pumped to the masses over the course of the past 3 years..
what does this list prove? I disagree with the format of it completely, yet I get the point. Brees of course was drafted in the 2nd round, but was he really a 1st tier QB coming out? If every team skips over you in the first round, then I’d say no. Tebow was a huge reach when he was taken and in no way was he considered a top tier QB
really?
b/c 3 of the top 5 QB’s in the league this year were non first round picks. And throughout the past decade between 4-7 of the top 10 QB’s in the league (in a given year) have been non first round QB’s.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
not or later....
more like one deemed initially as tier 2
late rounders seem better…(may be underscouted?)
Smith could change your mind in 2 years
and actually wind up as a counter argument…that given enough time with the right talent, top tier picks can achieve high levels of success.
I discount, Tebow, Leftwich and Young, who had throwing motion questions that would place them in tier 2 if it weren’t for them being “winners” (Tebow actually was, he should be in the tier 2 list in my opinion)
yes he might
ashame we were not as patient with Campbell
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I think the defintion for this
was the first 2 QB selected= Tier one
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
The Skins are in a tough spot…ideally I would think they would want Luck or RG3 with the contgency plan of signing Matt Flynn but unfortuntaly free agency is before the draft. If they don’t play their cards right they could miss out on all three options. Personally I think the Skins need to suck it up and overpay for the rights for Luck or RG3 because we’re not going anywhere without a franchise type player. Yes, there are risks with overpaying but look the state of the franchise the last few decades without a stud QB and the Skins have already proven what happens when you don’t have a stud QB.
Okay, you get the Golden Whip award
For continuously beating the same dead horse.
Last week you failed to make a compelling case to trade up (and many of the comments were of the "just you wait and see" what happens in the playoffs this weekend in nature) well, we have the results of the weekend and elite quarterbacks didn’t dominate as many predicted.
So this week the argument will be that we cannot trade back… my only response to this would be this:
so you don’t like what the Redskins did in last year’s draft?
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Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Thank you sir, I knew I could count on you
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
My point has always been you have to have Good play @ the QB position
Every team in the playoffs had good QB play this season( TJ yates dont count he was a replacement). Alex Smith has played well this season made plays when he had too. The QB’s that the Redskins have been laying have not played at a high level or the results would be different
And all of them made the team
Because our talent level is not the greatest.
It really gets exhausting having the state the bloody obvious in response to obtuse statements such as this.
You are making more points against your premise then you are for it.
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
At this point I don't care what they do.
It’s not my team, not my money, not my draft picks and not my job on the line.
My family showed the company their displeasure with the product by not renewing season tickets after 50 years.
I know we aren’t the only ones who did that.
No longer do we have a truly “vested” interest in the team, aside from being diehard fans.
This draft will go a long way in determining the future of this team, as a competitive football team and as a business.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 16, 2012 1:07 PM EST via mobile reply actions
The QB situation will be addressed... or Shanny will lose credibility.
The question is how… I believe that it will be a combination of FA and Draft… I just don’t see us trading for an established QB… even if its Bradford!
Agreed
It will be a veteran FA and a draft pick
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I think that is where the smart money is
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
As long as we can get as far away from the two bozo's we had this year ar QB
I’m all for this.
Crying Lion
Excellent
Now will you please try to explain this to highspeed?
We all agree we need to upgrade quarterback, we just seem to disagree on how many resources to throw at it.
There are precious few people here who think that we can stand pat all next year with what we have now.
Please do not villainize those of us who do not want to spend all of our resources on one position–
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
spending all of you resources??
First and foremost the cupboard is bare at the QB position. The Redskins dont have a starter or a backup @ QB. And secondly giving up 1 player this year 2nd rd pick and 2 players next year 1st and say 3rd does not qualify as giving up all your resources. you could even throw in 1 of your 2 4th rd picks this year and it is not all your resources.
Well crap–if that was all it would take
Then sure.
But while we are at it, why don’t we offer a bag of beans for Tom Brady?
This is the problem with this seemingly endless stream of posts about trading up for a quarterback… every premise used to support the position is based on nothing more than ether
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
So what you are saying...
Is that if you dont get the first two quarterbacks that there is hardly a time when it is worth picking a quarterback? So yes, if we have to mortgage the rest of the future for a single player who is at best a 50/50 proposition then we should trade back and pick as many players as we humanly can to fill every other deficiency we have to cover for the mediocre QB we are likely to get anyways.
Get Flynn in free agency if the price is reasonable then draft the best tweener we can get who may be able to grow over 3-4 years into a viable NFL QB. Like a Tannehill, who has shown great promise but lacks for experience that he could learn sitting in a backup role in a stable organization. In the meantime, draft a top CB in this draft, a top WR in the next draft, and a top LB in the next draft-those are the guys you will pass up for a shot at a 50/50 proposition.
The words
reasonable, tweener, viable are not words we need to hear when referring to our QB in DC. This has been the norm here. Time for change is now.
Crying Lion
The words?
Usually around here have been. Over Reach, Over Payed, Over the Hill, and Over Valued. Why can we as fans not be happy with progress. I would rather have am average QB than over reach for a prospect and lose out on three to four potential pro bowlers that would play for several years.
Alex Smith is an average QB that was over valued in his draft. He has plenty of talent around him now and coaching that uses his strenghts.
RG3 is a prospect, a very intriguing one, but I still would not mortgage a minimum of a couple of first rounders for one player. He is not good enough to make up for that loss of talent. If he is available when we pick then pick him. If he is not available, take the next best player or trade back for more picks. Patience wins the day. patience payed for Aaron Rodgers, patience payed for Eli Manning, patience payed for Drew Brees, patience payed for Alex Smith, patience payed for Joe Flacco. All those guys have railed against for years for not living up to the potential but their teams have stuck with them and allowed them to grow into premier roles.
the question you have to ask yourself is what do the team currently have at QB???
Average QB’s and below average QB’s is all the Redskins have had for 2 decades, it is time to make a move. The QB play here has been so bad for so long and the results speak for themselves.
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
I have asked the question
And I do understand. But we are like hamsters on the habitrail. Running as fast as we can and getting nowhere. QB will NOT solve all our problems. If RG3 is available then you take him if you have him rated that high. We have so many holes on this team that we could pick the best available player and come away with a starter at any position. And it would be a position of need. Why would you not fill all your holes with the best available players in the positions you pick?
That said, I also think Flynn if valued right would be an exceptional pick up for our team. If the Skins had reached last year and taken Gabbert-we fail. If we reached last year on Ponder-we have an average QB but our defense would be minus a building block. I truly beleive Shannahan had beleif in both Ponder and Dalton but they got jumped by teams only slightly over reaching. Cinn jumped us to get Dalton but only gave up minimal cost to get him.
I would love to see us take a player like Flynn then pick a Foles or even better Tannehill in the second if he falls that far. Tannehill like RG3 is highly intelligent but lacks the experience he could get learning on an NFL bench for a couple/few years.
We have a history of trading up and giving away value to get that one player. Think of the players we have given up to pick McIntosh, Campbell, Ramsey, Howard, to name only a few. Good players that ended up costing way to much.
by Ghost_Ryder on Jan 17, 2012 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
2007 was just as bad IMO
Kevin Kolb aint prove nothing to me, and he the only QB that is half way decent in that draft
I'm torn
A part of me says stay at 6, grab a corner, and draft a Foles or whoever in the 2nd.
Another part of me says trade back, draft a Tannehill or Foles, and aqcuire more picks, but as we all know, just drafting a guy does not make him the franchise QB that we’ve all been waiting for. Instead, you could see a Chad Henne look alike, or Jimmy Clausen. Just because we draft “our guy” in the 2nd round doesn’t mean he’ll be anything more than serviceable.
That’s what sucks about us trying to mock the draft, we do so with the best expectations that each pick we as fans forecast will work out and those players will contribute to our team.
That mentality is slowly pushing me towards the option of possibly trading up. I’ve been against it for the longest time, and RG3 isn’t even a guarantee to pan out, but at the same time, taking a flyer on a 2nd round guy does not mean we have our guy and he’s going to be here for the next decade. If we don’t get one of the elite prospects, than not drafting a QB in the top 2 rounds next April may actually be the best move, in my own opinion. Maybe a Weeden in the mid rounds to hold down the fort.
Barkley and Tyler Wilson going back really did hurt us, we may have to wait another year. I honestly don’t want to draft someone just so they can say we drafted a QB, I want that bitch to hit, and the guys we “think” to be elite are usually more likely to do so.
Another draft of continued building may be what’s best schematically, I just know the fans and probably the owner would tip over squad cars in the streets if the Redskins don’t take a QB in the top 2 rounds.
One other issue that makes trading back less likely is that
you need more than one option…there is not guarantee 1 or 2 guys will still be there…you never know when a run on QBs will happen…
true but there are plenty of years where QB's fall, Rodgers, Clausen, Brees, Quinn etc.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
These guys all had some ?'s surrounding them
I don’t see many questions with RG3. How about you?
Crying Lion
not too many beyond his size
my point is I don’t think we’ll see a run on QB’s like we did last year. Guys like Tannehill (now with the injury) and Foles will probably still be 2nd round guys (or very late 1st with teams trading up).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I agree
I was just seeing what you though about him transitioning to the pro game. With a lot of these QB’s I have concerns. With him, not so much. I actually had more concerns with Barkley, than I do with RG3. I may even have a few with Luck, that I don’t have with RG3. It’s kind of rare to not have many concerns, but I feel he falls into this for me.
Crying Lion
I still don't get
The questions about his size. I guess Aaron Rogers and Tony Romo are too small as well. May as well write off Barkley next year as well.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
Agree, we would be in a much
better place if barkley and wilson came out this year. i’d take barkley at 6 in a sec
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Dan Snyder
has never been in position to draft a top quaterback since he took over as owner. Not that we havent been in position. but weve always already had a starter when weve drafted in the top 10. Havent we tried drafting the 2nd tier guys already with ramsey and cambell.havent we tried getting a vet to lead the offense with brunell, mc nabb and rex . what makes you think the result would be any different . some of you guys make no sense ( I dont want to move up lets get flynn and hope he doesnt suck but also hope he doesnt do to good so we can be in a simular position next year to get a qb)what makes you people think that if were sitting at 8-8 with the 16th pick that someone will be willing to trade that far back so we can grab a qb and wont it cost a lot more? if you want foles or tannehill thats fine even flynn i can respectfully disagree. but stop saying build depth and trade up next year for a qb. thats like saying i wanna keep sucking until a quterback I like is available
what makes you people think that if were sitting at 8-8 with the 16th pick that someone will be willing to trade that far back so we can grab a qb and wont it cost a lot more?
The fact that trading back this year could net us an extra 1st round pick next year would give us the means to trade up without giving away so many of our own picks.
then every one will say
we need both first round picks we shouldnt trade 2 starters for 1. lets wait and see what happens . We could end up with an extra 1st round pick but thats only if we move way back into the 20’s more than likely we will swap in the teens and pick up an extra 2nd like last year. that really doesnt help us get our qb next year and thatsonly if a team is willing to trade back the browns could offer any of the top 3 teams 2 first round picks this year doesnt mean they will accept the offer if they have there hearts set on someone
I think you are wrong there.....
then every one will say
we need both first round picks we shouldnt trade 2 starters for 1
I think if we had (2) 1st rounders this year….nobody would have a hard time putting them and a possible 1st next year to get Luck. I don’t think anyone would argue over using them both to get RGIII either. This team and fanbase is QB desperate.
Can we please get a mother f***ing QB we can be proud of?!?!?!?!?!?!
i think it will be just like this year
people will be saying trade up and just as many looking at a qb to be there whenever we pick and to use the second 1st round pick on something else you know its true. why cant the browns just offer 2 pick to the colts and get luck ? because teams who need franchise quaterbacks dont trade back when there is one available
You don't get it
You don’t trade away draft picks to get one player when you have as many holes as this team does.
Free agency comes first this year–if we get a playmaker at wide receiver, and a couple of offensive lineman to take care of glaring holes such as right tackle, and bolster the defensive secondary… THEN it might be a good idea to trade up for a quarterback if Shanahan likes what he sees…
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 4:17 PM EST up reply actions
and what one position cant be solved in free agency
what holes cant be filled with a young talented free agent ?the only one i can think of is ………………..Quaterback
what in your mind is the price to move up from #6 to #3 its not gonna be three first round picks
In any given year
Depending on player is available in both the draft and free agency, the market will always set the price.
There are at least five teams that need a quarterback. There are not that many desirable quarterbacks available, therefore the price this year in both the draft and free agency will be higher than the norm for a quarterback.
We live in a capitalist society, this should not come as a shock to anyone here, simple economics
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:22 PM EST up reply actions
Some of those teams including the Redskins may solve their QB problems in FA
and FA come before the draft like it is suppose to, therefore say Miami or Cleveland pick up Flynn or other free agent(Manning) then the field is smaller. having said that nobody was gonna give up 3 1st rd picks anyway. there aint no more Herschel Walker type deals out there
Name five quarterbacks that you think our starter material
That are available in both free agency and the draft-I think you miss the point.
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:35 PM EST up reply actions
Come on man
You’re really not doing yourself any favors here…
Miami
Cleveland
Seattle
Washington
Minnesota
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
Okay, Minnesota is debatable
But they sure are going to twist the knife
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
ok out of those 4 teams
which need to trade up or would be likely to trade up??? and remember 1 of those teams will get Flynn and another may possibly get Manning but i am not gonna count on that
Holmgren is not trading up. Period
I don’t think Peety trades up either. He’ll wait until next year if need be. That leaves us and Miami.
Miami, with the new ownership, and new coach need to make a splash. RG3 would be their splash.
They have an ok line. They have Reggie Bush and Thomas. They have Marshall. RG3 could be right up their alley.
Crying Lion
so if that leaves just Washington and Miami looking to trade up that means the Dolphins would have to trade a lil more to move up they will be 8 or 9. The Rams would be in a better position to get a guy the really like @ 6 vs 8 or 9. And it is possible for them to add a guy like Flynn in the offseason
1977...
this is precisely what we have been posting…
FA OL (Nicks or Grubbs or Myers or a combination of these), perhaps WRs (Bowe or VJax or Colston), perhaps DL or DB; 3 or 4 FAs makes a huge difference.
Then trade up with picks (and I would include Orakpo, given our depth at this position and his value) to get Luck. Or trade up with Rams, which will cost less, to get RG3.
I’m probably more against trading up because I want to build that depth. But they can’t draft a Tannehill or Foles just to draft him, they better be damn sure he has the credentials to be a successful Quarterback for this team. The Jets traded up for Mark Sanchez, and not only did they grab a middle of the pack QB, they lost picks by doing so, picks that could have gone towards other positions of need.
I want an elite guy too, but trading up for Robert Griffin III could be as risky as it could be lucrative.
we do need depth
this is a redskins team that swept the injured giants. struggled to beat rams, cards and sea and lost every onther game but i have faith in the shanaplan to find late gems like last year and tradeback to acumilate more picks in the later round and to get more quality free agents this year i think as a fanbased we have been done wrong by so many free agents that we forget that you can find quality role players there
I’m with you.
There are so many quality starting QBs in this league that were finds and not Top 10 draft picks that I to believe we can find a QB that isn’t named Griffin.
Everyone’s either saying trade up or trade back, I’m fine staying right where we are! There should be tons of great players available at 6, players that could help this team from day 1.
CB, WR, OT, all needs too, and quality guys could be in the mix.
Nobody you will get at the #6 pick will help you as much as having Andrew Luck or RG3
Let’s see who you can get at #6 for a moment. Luck gone, RGII gone, Kalil Gone, Blackmon gone, Claiborne gone.
Who is left??? Trent Richardson, Dre Kirkpatrick,, Riley Reiff, Jonathon Martin or Ashlon Jeffery.
Which of those players are gonna help you as much as Luck or RG3??? let me help you out with that none.
the best you can hope for with that is The Bengals want Richardson and trade both their 1st Rd picks to you 17th and 21.
Riley Reiff is an athletic tackle who would anchor the line from day one, and Kirkpatrick is CB 1A in this draft, not 1 because Claiborne is around. I’d be happy to have either of them, shutdown corner is No. 2 in importance in my book, behind QB.
What has you convinced that Luck is even an option, and what makes you think RG3 will ride up on his majestic steed and whisk us Redskins fans into the sunset? The guy will be one hit away from his career ending, and seeing as we’d have to potentially trade the farm to get him, that’ll forfeit the other high round picks that could’ve been used to help protect the guy.
You can trade back, but the quality of player is cut in half.
One hit away? He's 220 pounds, the weight of most running backs.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
If you could get Anrew Luck?
for the same price it would cost to move up to get RG3 III would you move up to get Luck??
Of course, but that’s because I see Luck as the better prospect. I like Griffin, I think he can be a great starter, but I also think his stock has been inflated just a little bit by the media junkies who get paid to talk. Even though he was playing great before this season, no one talked about him as the No. 2 guy entering the draft until the second half of the season. The hype machine always chugs along this time of year, and like I said, just because Griffin is hyped doesn’t mean I don’t think he can back it up. I just think Luck is a once every 10 years prospect and I think Griffin is getting thrown into that discussion and maybe shouldn’t be.
Me personally, and I’m sure you and many others will disagree, I think Griffin will need a good team around him for his potential to really shine through. I think Luck can come right in and help a struggling offense become efficient.
I said earlier, I wouldn’t be upset if they traded up and drafted him, but I’m just trying to keep a level head and recognize what we forfeit by making such a move. If we do, they better draft Olinemen in the middle rounds that have a great shot at playing.
Fans also need to keep an open mind. Just because a mock draft has us trading up doesn’t mean it happens. If the Redskins can’t match the bid of another team, then what? Then Griffin’s off the board and we have to go else where. I’m just saying, don’t shove all your chips in on Griffin being a Redskin, we need to look at the rest of this class.
I have watched whole games of both Luck and RG3
And it is not just the hype machine behind RG3, Baylor is not a good team they never beat Oklahoma never won 10 games in a season, and dont get the top recruits in the country. Yet Griffin III managed to help them to the best record in school history and bring a the first heisman to the school. Luck have 2 lineman in this years draft that may get picked in the top 15 in Martin and DeCastro. I think Luck is gonna be good but I think RG3 have the potential to be better, and i would take either one of them but i know the Colts are taking Luck and not trading the pick but i would still call them
You simply don't spend the 6th pick on a RT like Reiff
Martin is actually a better fir for this offense, and he could be had a little later.
You actually shouldn’t spend the 6th pick on a RT at all. Look into the 2nd round. Guys like Adcock, Potter, hell even your boy Adams; all better value picks for our RT.
Crying Lion
I look at all the teams that recently have selected tackles in the top ten.
Long, Thomas, Williams, Okung…I’m sure there are others but I can’t think of them.
What are these teams doing?
We NEED a QB.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
you gotta get value for your pick
I believe in taking the BPA not just cause of your needs if Matt kalil fell to me @ 6 I would draft him in a heart beat
Like when The Redskins drafted Trent Williams
I would have took Eric Berry that year cause i thought he was the best player in the entire draft and was defensive Rookie of the year 2010. and got a T with my 2nd pick. when you draft in the top 10 you have to get value for your pick. You can reach later on in the draft
If your drafting that high
and you have needs, a lot of times you just don’t have the luxury of going BPA. We are not one of those teams with that luxury.
Crying Lion
What happens when we can’t make a deal to move up and we’re stuck at 6 cuz no one wants to give us what we’re asking for to trade back?
I would take dre Kirkpatrick if i could not trade down
or maybe Ashlon Jeffery, or DeCastro a lil bit of a reach.
They went to 2 consecutive Championship games
I dont think the Jets are crying about the picks they gave up for Sanchez, and I am not a Sanchez fan and never was but he made the plays to get them there, and he took a step back this year.
considering how much they paid him and how awful he's been I think the Jets do regret Sanchez
they would have been 1,000 times better off sticking where they were and taking Josh Freeman.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
you cant predict how freeman would have handled the New York Media
I am not a Sanchez fan, and never was, but you cant write him off just yet this was his third year. The Media was killing Eli Manning for his first 4/5 years even the year they won the SB so i think it is still premature to say he a bust. The kid has a 4-2 playoff record with all his games been play on the road
i don't think it is the NY media that is the issue for Sanchez
this is the first time they’ve really started to question him. Freeman is simply a more talented QB. Look at his numbers on a FAR worse team compared to Sanchez.
Yes Eli took some time to develop, but look at his pedigree and talent. He’s far more talented than Sanchez ever has been. As bad as Eli’s first 4 years were, they are better than Sanchez’s first 3.
And Sanchez’s playoff record doesn’t impress me. That running game and defense got those wins.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Sanchez rode the Jets defense and
running game to those championship games FYI. Sanchez has not lived up to his billing
by Bryan Black on Jan 16, 2012 5:35 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Where the Redskins are and where the Jets were personnel wise then are completely different. We don’t have the depth to lean on here right now. We draft Griffin now, he’s going to have to be the guy because the weapons around him are few and far between.
Having Robert Griffn III here would elevate what you have here already
Roy Helu and Royster would benefit Davis/Cooley, and a guy like Hankerson and Austin would benefit. the line is a little bit better got some depth in W. Smith, Polumbus, and Hurt. Everyone keep saying we dont have the pieces but you have to start somewhere and if we had the pieces then we would not be 5-11.
We have more pieces, but I wouldn’t say we have all of them and QB is our final one. Hankerson’s too early to tell, and I think the lineman that got experience this year playing is good and all, but some of them aren’t starters. Some of the guys that started this season should be our depth guys, like Chester or Brown on the right side. Right now, outside of Helu, we have no one who can take one to the house when they get in the open field, we just don’t, and weapons that can do that are proving to be quite valuable themselves.
I think Chester is fine
he played a lot better as the season went on.
Give us a C and either a T or G(Draft), and 1 WR in FA and we are looking good……………………that’s if RG3 is here.
Crying Lion
Talk about getting blown off the ball
that’s Monty for ya.
Hurt did a nice job this year. He’s only going to get better with time(and conditioning lol)
Crying Lion
Hurt got pretty abused this year
he gave up more sacks than Chester despite playing only about 40% of the snaps.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Thats to be expected
from a 7th round pick who still has yet to shed his baby fat. Overall, I think he performed pretty well; especially later in the season.
Crying Lion
i think he's extremely raw and shouldn't be counted on to start at all
it could have been worse, but it didn’t give me much hope to expect him to be more than a backup.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
you dont need to have all of them
But the biggest piece of the puzzle you have to have a Franchise QB
Having RG3 here
would take this offense from being one of the most boring, to one of the most exciting. Imagine if we could lure D Jackson away from Philly, and have RG3! Wow……………………….damn!!!!
Crying Lion
No thanks-we already got rid of our Philadelphia trash
No need to go dumpster-diving again
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
Look
you guys can berate Jackson all you want, but when it comes to making plays, he’s got the “it” factor. Guy just wants his money. He’s not a big man at all, and he’s one hit away from having his back broke. That’s why you saw his play decline this year. I don’t blame him. The Eagles have been known to be a cheap organization. They need to pony up and pay this kid.
I know he acts immature at times, but damn, if I’m putting my life on the line for my team, and they are not taking care of me, but I see them paying all these Free Agents big money, I’m going to be pissed too.
Crying Lion
which is exactly how all of the Redskins players
Will feel when we do this again, come on man!
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 4:33 PM EST up reply actions
We actually don't have a high paid skill guy
nor a guy who deserves to be a high paid skill guy
Crying Lion
And we did not have a decent defensive tackle
When we signed fat Albert.
Come on man… we have like 10 wide receivers on the roster, half of whom we drafted and many feel excited about… if we really need a number one receiver to kick this offense into gear, can’t we find somebody better than Jackson? Is he even really a number one? Do you really want to give up on Hank already?
Jackson (either one of them) might make sense for another team, but not the Redskins, not right now
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:07 PM EST up reply actions
Why would signing a WR
be giving up on our young guys?
It would be like getting rid of Stallworth – I’d think we’d all agree, that woud be worth it. Hell, I’d get rid of Moss too. I didn’t really want to sign him last year. He’s going downhill fast.
Crying Lion
and a showboating punk who disappears when everything isn’t going his way. I don’t think his character fits what Shanahan has tried to build in the past 2 years.
Never said he wasn't
Point is, he can play the game, both as a WR and a returner. These guys are showman……..it’s what they do.
Like Russell Crow said in Gladiator: “Are You Not Entertained?”
Crying Lion
The Eagles have always been good of getting rid of guys and trimming the fat when they need to. If they let Jackson walk, I think you’ll eventually see why they did.
There is no denying we could use him though
Randy Moss was a headcase before coming to NE. All he did was have the best season in his career, and kept his mouth shut while doing so.
Crying Lion
I am denying it–as hard as I can
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:08 PM EST up reply actions
Yea! He would be a tremendous addition to our locker room!
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Well
I live in NYC, and can tell you about half the town thinks the Sanchez expirement should come to end, and the other half is willing to give him one more year max. Either way, I think most people regret trading up for him
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
So you saying that
only the Jets were dumb enough to be interested in Sanchez?
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
There was one other
"He who shall not be named" and "he who thinks Claussen is good"
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:10 PM EST up reply actions
You know what they say…
Curiosity killed the cat
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
THIS
But they can’t draft a Tannehill or Foles just to draft him, they better be damn sure he has the credentials to be a successful Quarterback for this team.
If Shanny has his sights set on a guy, let’s do what it takes to get him. I’ll use this same reasoning with Flynn. Just because he seems like he might be the best FA QB option, doesn’t mean we have to run out and sign him just because we need a QB.
Crying Lion
I would like to know
how exactly some QBs are Tier 1 but are drafted behind some of the tier 2 QBs (for example, Josh freeman tier 2 but drafted #17 while Aaron Rodgers is tier 1 but was drafted #24). This seems backwards at worst and completely arbitrary at best.
Furthermore, there is a post not 4 posts below this one, also made by you, on almost the same subject. And my answer to the title of this thread is still a resounding YES.
Look at the 49ers-Saints game.Do you honestly believe that Alex smith is the better of 2 the QBs? He had a decent game, but 80% of it was Vernon Davis on beast mode and his Defense forcing 5 turnovers.
Speaking of turnovers, just to make sure everybody sees it here are the Defensive statistics for every super bowl winning team of the last 15 years.
[Super bowl]-[Team]-[Points Allowed rank]-[TO Forced rank]
45 – Packers – 2nd in points allowed, 5th in turnovers forced.
44 – Saints – 20th in points allowed, 2nd in turnovers forced.
43 – Steelers – 1st in points allowed,7th in turnovers forced.
42 – Giants – 17th in points allowed, 22nd in turnovers forced.
41 – Colts – 22nd in points allowed, 20th in turnovers forced.
40 – Steelers – 3rd in points allowed, 10th in turnovers forced
39 – Pats – 2nd in points allowed, 3rd in turnovers forced.
38 – Pats – 1st in points allowed, 2nd in turnovers forced.
37 – Bucs – 1st in points allowed, 2nd in turnovers forced.
36 – Pats – 6th in points allowed, 6th in turnovers forced.
35 – Ravens – 1st in points allowed, 1st in turnovers forced.
34 – Rams – 4th in points allowed, 6th in turnovers forced.
33 – Broncos – 7th in points allowed, 8th in turnovers forced
32 – Broncos – 7th in points allowed, 8th in turnovers forced
31 – Packers – 1st in points allowed, 4th in turnovers forced.
30 – Cowboys – 3rd in points allowed, 22nd in turnovers forced.
Look at all those top 5 and top 10 numbers. You need a complete team, not just an elite QB.
agreed
if Aaron Rodgers and Roethlisberger are tier 1, than Kyle Boller and J.P. Losman are def. tier one, b/c they had just as much pre draft hype if not more.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Someone pointed out above that the tiers
were based on the top 2 picks…although that is negated by the astericked Big Ben tiering…
fwiw…
hmmm...not sure what happened
this was supposed to say the tiers were based on the top 2 picks, not drafting tiers…but the asterick by Ben seems to negate that…
FWIW
I was just stating that BEn was in the 1st tier or Top prospects that year
Just like Barkley would have been in that top tier this year
yes but then why isn't Clausen or Boller considered top tier?
they had the same amount of hype as Roethlisberger
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
About the defenses.....
your defense will look better when they are not on the field so damn much from consistent 3 and outs and a QB who gives the ball away 2 times a game. If we had a game manager at QB…..let’s say Alex Smith, Jason Campbell, (someone who doesn’t light up the stats but doesn’t turn the ball over), we would have had a top 10 defense this year. Offense and defense rely on each other but our defense would look a lot better with a more complete QB running the show! I otherwise agree!
Can we please get a mother f***ing QB we can be proud of?!?!?!?!?!?!
You are correct
in that less turnovers = better Defense. HOWEVER you don’t need an elite QB to minimize turnovers, just a QB that doesn’t turn the ball over so much – We don’t HAVE to have Luck or Griffin to win games.
Top Prospects are the first 2 QB’s taken in the draft of any year. For instance Luck and RGIII will be the first 2 QB’s taken every other QB taken after that falls into 2nd tier quality QB or 3rd tier or as i like to say projects
What about Matt Leinart? He was drafted before Jay Cutler, yet isn't on the list
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
i missed Matt Leinart
even still you got maybe 2 QB’s in the last 10 drafts, Josh Freeman and Jay Cutler that was not considered Top 2 Prospects in their given draft year that is capable of playing QB at a high level
I'm sure Dan Marino considers himself second tier
It depends on the debth at the position in any given year.
The quarterbacks are combination of where you find them and how you made them
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 4:24 PM EST up reply actions
1977...
the post was restricted to the last 10 drafts, not 30 years ago…
But I’m sure you already knew that…
Your example of QBs in previously drafts hit the nail right on the head. Seeing guys like Eli (gasp!) or Rodgers or Brady play makes every fan say, I want that! Where do we get that? We draft a guy with a top 5 pick because Mel Kiper’s hair tell us that’s where we go to get one of them.
Finding a Quarterback in the NFL is such a crapshoot, and as we know, every draft is the “deepest draft in years,” you just can’t say Andrew Luck is going to be elite. What happens when he rips his shoulder and we forget about him in 3 years?
I know the percentage of success is obviously higher for highly drafted guys, but that percentage doesn’t mean anything to the guy we draft.
I’m sticking with my comment above, I think I am more inclined to not move up and rather take what’s there position wise. If Griffin isn’t there at 6, so be it. I can’t blame them if they trade up, I just personally will be more nervous than excited. We need a QB, but we need so much more too. Of the 4 teams in the championship games right now, the Patriots rely the most on their QB for success. The rest have great players and great weapons to work with, even if Eli has really emerged as (dare I say) an elite guy.
If they trade up, ok, but our problems are not solved with Griffin. In fact, doing so may set us back even longer.
You can’t grade a draft right after it happens, you have to give it time, and if the Redskins decide not to go QB in the first 2 rounds, it’s because they couldn’t get the guy that they felt could win for this team. Their view of Gabbert a year ago gives me faith in their judgment.
Also, of the 4 QBs you have two #1 picks, 3 first rounders and 1 of the top five QBs
ever….which seems to support the value assigned to QBs in relation to Super Bowl contention…
I understand where they were drafted, but their contribution to their team is not necessarily the gleaming reason for why they are there.
Brady and Eli have carried their offenses, I admit that, but can the same be said for Alex Smith or Joe Flacco? Wouldn’t you rather have a Rodgers or Brees who just got knocked out because their defense couldn’t stop a bowel movement?
I’m merely pointing out that, though we are told that having an elite QB is everything, that’s simply not always the case.
Smith had a career game on Saturday, and he needed to, but his regular season statistics did not get them 13 wins, the same can be said of Flacco.
That’s my build the team stance.
this is not a reason to draft someone...
Finding a Quarterback in the NFL is such a crapshoot, and as we know, every draft is the "deepest draft in years," you just can’t say Andrew Luck is going to be elite. What happens when he rips his shoulder and we forget about him in 3 years?
1. that can happen with any position
2. As recently as Stafford, some QBs do have major injuries but are still worth it.
I think other arguments besides, what if he gets hurt, are much more effective.
I’m not saying avoid drafting a guy if you like him, you can’t predict the future. But just because he is Andrew Luck or Robert Griffin does not mean he’ll have a more successful career than say Brandon Weeden in the 3rd or 4th round.
So much more goes into it than just that one player. Personally, I’d like to think our QB is coming into a situation where they will be protected and able to make throws to dangerous playmakers. So many times the young “savior” has been thrown to the wolves and then thrown out of the league years later because he simply wasn’t in the right situation. As the roster stands right now, that could be that situation here.
I LOVE the trade back gang and their use of last year as an example. It's hilarious
So the team went into last year thinking defense all the way, only AFTER Locker was off the board (he would be in burgundy and gold if he wasn’t). So…if a Defensive Line heavy draft they traded back and got two Defensive Linemen (Kerrigan and Jenkins) and picked up extra picks in doing so. Who honestly didn’t think we got hosed in the trade at first? Shanahan has intimated that last year was defense and this year is offense, so where is the abundance of talent on offense in this years draft that the team is trading back for?
OL is not deep in this years draft
RB is but Shanahan can take care of that in the later rounds
WR is not too deep
QB is not deep
TE not much of a need, but those can be had in the later rounds
So…trading back is not as much of an option (IMO) as it was lat year. The DL needed works and there was an abundance of talent to choose from. This years draft looks more like a BPA or trade up kind of draft for the Skins. Who in the lower portion of the draft is trading up with the Skins? After the first 6 picks the majority of the talent projected in the 1st round is Defensive with the exception of WR. Fine…you don’t want to trade up, that’s not even my argument here, IMO trading back isn’t very likely this year.
Redskins @RGIII - 2012
by Copious 1 on Jan 16, 2012 4:03 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
That sucks man.
Remember, it’s always easier to ask for forgiveness than permission.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
Yeah, I know
but ya don’t want to rock the boat too much. Anyways, I bought a new watch today so I’m happy!
Crying Lion
WR and OL are not deep this year
seem pretty deep to me
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
and how RB deep this year? Outside of Polk, Richardarson and Miller there is nobody
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
RB is actually pretty deep
David Wilson, Lemichael James
They are 3rd or 4th round guys
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
thank god Locker was off the board, that would have set this team back so much it isn't even funny
OL and WR are extremely deep in this year’s draft class, and QB is deeper than most people think.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I agree with you, Steve, on Locker...
he was horrific and so were all the QBs last year. I thought it was one of the worst years for QB prospects. Newton definitely surprised, but lets wait and see…
I most definitely was not interested in any of last years options...
even with our history, or lack of, a franchise QB. This year is SO DIFFERENT! It is an opportunity that cannot be missed.
JUST TRADE UP AND GET IT OVER WITH
We should just pull the plug and get RG3 period , why not just get the QB we need for once and move up since we are so near the front of the pack in picks ? next year we might be picking in the teens then what give a load of picks to get a better QB ? just do it now and we can all relax and say dam that was the right choice all along . If we dont pick a good QB in RG3 we will keep sucking for another 20 years again or morgage our future drafts away to were we cant pick any players again like in the past . Flynn would be a waste of time because he played behind a good offensive line , no wonder he was able to put up them numbers like he did . He had a bunch of good reciever unlike we do , he had a good offense to protect him like we dont have , SO WHAT makes you think that FLYNN will have a snowballs chance in HELL to be any good and put up numbers like he did in greenbay ? STOP DREAMING AND PICK UP RG3 NOW this is a once in a lifetime grab for us . Stop getting these FILL INS AT QBs pick a qb that has a good background and worth ethics like RG3 has .Dont get a micheal vic aka dog killer , or vince young aka baby tantrums , or ryan leaf aka drug user . Get a QB with a good work ethic like RG3 he will be way better than a dog killer or drug addict period .
The trade up with the Rams would be perfect
The Rams don’t need a QB, and they should definitly be all ears for a trade offer. Our spot is perfect. They move back 4 spots, grab a linemen, WR or CB, and get an extra 2nd, and a 1st next year. Perfect deal for them.
Crying Lion
I AGREE %100
This is the year we need to pull the plug on a GOOD QB and just get it over with . He at least has good morals and very accurate as well with the deep ball .
by washingtonwin on Jan 16, 2012 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
Plus
he is so charasmatic. He’d definitly be all over TV adds. It would give our team some much needed exposure, and give us a face-of-the-franchise.
Crying Lion
I'm calling it now. FINAL ANSWER: The Skins draft RG3 and I'm sticking by it.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
As far as being charasmatic, he reminds me of Cam in that aspect.
The whole offense appears to be having a lot of fun with him. It’s contagious.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
He's definitly a funny dude
he’s smart, has a great attitude, good size, great speed……………..and by the way, happens to be one hell of a player.
Crying Lion
I doubt it will happen
I think Shanny likes the outcome of last years draft, and want to do something similiar this year. Also, I seem to recall him talking about wanting to add depth
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
when people talk trade up - yes
i will be mr. buzzkill
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Only prob is
we really need a guy like RG3……………………….really bad!
If he were a headcase, project, or overrated, I would want no part, but he’s the exact opposite of these.
Crying Lion
he is going to cost 4
high picks over the next 2 years, so he sure as shit better be the real deal
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
to swap with the Rams
I think it would cost us a 2 and a 4 this year, and a 1 and 3 next year. Remember there will be alot of team trying to get that pick so its going to come at a premium
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
ok so your trade you are giving up 2 players this year. 2nd rd possible starter and 4th rd back up type player. And 2 players next year 1st rd starter and a possible starter/possible back up type player. I dont think that is giving away the farm when you still would have 6 picks this year and at least 5 picks next year. and you have FA where you can plug holes like they did this year basically the whole D-line was FA
I do-
and Im tired of plugging holes with overvalued FAs when we should be building through the draft
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Defense holes are plugged
Offense can be plugged through FA and draft.
QB, OL, WR in the draft will go a long way.
Add in FA, and it’s just icing
Crying Lion
Have you seen our secondary depth chart?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 6:09 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure I agree
Some big questions at safety…and that’s assuming landry stays.
Outside of Wilson, I have huge concerns at CB. May have to live with Hall another year, but barnes is not suited for nickle…might be better at safety.
Down the road ILB will be a problem, and that’s assuming Fletcher stays
Four (ill settle for 3) of the five OL spots need to be upgraded…assumming TW can keep himself on the field
WR at least one stud, and maybe a slot guy down the road…assuming hank pans out
and QB in a pair tree
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Now all of a sudden
Low round draft picks are okay? Remember, we can all read
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 6:10 PM EST up reply actions
To get the face of your Franchise
giving up 2 starters, 1 possible starter and a depth type of player is not too much to give up.
There are a plenty of 4th rounders
that could start for us day 1.
C – Molk
RT – Adcock
TE- Green
WR – McNutt
QB – Weeden
CB – Hayward
When you put a player to the draft position, it doesn’t seem quite the trade up it did
Kinda like O'Dowd was supposed to go in the third...
and went undrafted. There’s a better than real chance that all of these guys last into the 4th or 5th round
Adcock will be late 2nd at absolute worst.
No way Weeden makes it out of the 3rd. McNutt, unless he breaks a leg at the combine, will go 2nd-3rd.
Crying Lion
he's not top 10 at the OT position in the draft...
I seriously doubt 12 tackles are taken in the first 3 rounds
This is my top 10
Kalil – USC
Reiff – Iowa
Martin – – Stanford
Sanders – FSU
Adams – OSU
Potter – Boise State
McCants – UAB
Datko – FSU
Mosley – Auburn
Berstrom – Utah
Sanders, Kalil, Martin and Reiff – yes
Potter and Adams – all around the same(2nd round guys)
The rest – no way are they ahead of Adcock
Crying Lion
You realize Adcock was the only O-Linemen
to make all 4 of the bigger All-American teams.
Crying Lion
And you of course realize...
how a good quarterback can make a tackle look really good.
Remember, Jamaal Brown was a Pro Bowler at one point!!!! haha
Most of the good OT’s had good QB’s
Kalil – Barkley
Potter – Moore
Adcock – Weeden
Martin – Luck
Sanders – E.J.
Iowa and Ohio St seems to be the lone exceptions
Crying Lion
Don't forget
Adams missed 5 games, and I thought he was very rusty when he came back. He also was protecting a mobile QB his entire career at Ohio St. It’s a lot different than blocking for a pocket passer.
So, maybe he’d be ok if we got RG3……………..IDK, I’m not very high on him
Crying Lion
I see two on that list
Adcock and Weeden. And no way Adcock lasts till 4
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
People shouldn't count one of those picks.
Does it really count as giving up a pick if you’re just switching places?
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 16, 2012 5:57 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
And a 4th in 2012 IMO
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
And the picks you give up
can bust just as easy as anyone you would trade up for. Hell, our first rounder next year could be a bum. Worry about next year then, we need something now
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 9:15 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Thanks Vinny
Hell, our first rounder next year could be a bum. Worry about next year then, we need something now
by StephanHart on Jan 17, 2012 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
Based on last years draft
I wouldn’t even include Vinny in the same sentence as Shanny
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 6:20 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
The person making the decisions is
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 9:25 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
To have the MO of "who cares about those future picks, we need what we need now" is very Vinny-esque
What is your proposed plan? I have been screaming for years about trading away picks but I feel with the way this team is developing, the time is now. If we didn’t have such a great draft last year then I might have a differrent tune. Let me guess, your in the thinking that its going to take 7 picks to move up 4 spots? That’s closer to a Vinny thought than anything I have been saying
by Bryan Black on Jan 18, 2012 9:33 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
It is very possible that it would take that much to trade
And I find it disturbing that, after ONE solid draft, you are ready to go back to trading away picks.
What this team really needs is 2 more drafts like the one we had last year to close the talent gap we have put ourselves in with the rest of the division
by StephanHart on Jan 18, 2012 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
So, I'm guessing you are for trading back?
If so what’s your plan at QB then? Are you a Flynn supporter or on the idea of Tannehill or later on with Foles, Weeden…etc?
by Bryan Black on Jan 18, 2012 10:50 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I would like:
1. Flynn signed for less than exorbitant $$$
2. Two trade backs in the 1st round to set up huge 2012 and 2013 drafts.
3. Nick Foles drafted in the 2nd round as our QB of the future.
4. A late round drafted QB, or UDFA QB, to be our 3rd stringer, preferable of the mold of a Joe Webb
5. Rex and Beck off the roster
by StephanHart on Jan 18, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
Good plan
But the Flynn signing scares me ala Derek Anderson and IMO very shortly Ryan Fitzpatrick. These guys are relatively unproven and they get inked to huge deals and flop. I am completely in agreement on a 2nd round QB no matter what happens with our 6th pick. I don’t think we run with 3 QB’s this year. Beck definitely gone, Rex as a backup if worse comes to worse
by Bryan Black on Jan 18, 2012 11:20 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
Well thats why I'm not for signing Flynn to a HUGE deal. It needs to be somewhat reasonable
But draft picks are far more valuable than money.
And no, Rex needs to go. He’s 32 years old, is turnover prone and not going to change, and he’s not apart of anyone’s long-term future.
by StephanHart on Jan 18, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
I disagree with portions of it but can respect the logic behind your scenario
I tend to believe that Shanny is more likely within the line of thinking of NOT trading up at all but sometimes you never know what he will do. I do know for me it is one of the most anticipated drafts that I can recall from my years although the Samuels/ Lavar back to back year was exciting!
by Bryan Black on Jan 18, 2012 1:09 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I do pretty much
the same, except next year I would be game to trade up (assumming we will bedd to) for Bray or Barkley)
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Agreed…we’re in striking distance of drafting a franchise type player AND we want to trade down. Wth all the OL Homers wanting more linemen RG3 will make the OLine look better with his mobility. You sometimes have to give up something to actually get something in return. If the Skins don’t want Flynn then they must go after RG3.
Of course we all want to trade Beck!
Probably could get a ham sandwich for him haha
the ham would be conditional
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Trade up now
I waffle occasionally but currently I am of the mindset to trade up. Are you not wasting resources by not having a good qb? Beck and Grossman are drains on other finite resources such as London Fletcher, Santana Moss etc. etc. For every young player we draft to develop at the non-qb position, other players at other positions are passing their prime and eventually creating new voids.
Also, if you have to draft let’s say 5 Colt Brennan’s over a 10 year period in the hopes one of them develops, aren’t those also wasted resources.
If we trade multiple picks to move up to get RGIII, and let’s say there is a 50/50 shot he is as advertised, then we shouldn’t feel "pressure" to draft another qb for 4-5 years at a minimum.
by jamesumd on Jan 16, 2012 4:32 PM EST reply actions 3 recs
We have all of this discussion about free agents coming here.
If I’m a FA WR I won’t go to Washington if Rex is my QB. If I know RG3 is throwing my way, that’s a different story.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
Bruce will probably talk to that player's agent and tell him of the plans, under a confidentiality agreement.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
WRs follow the money more than any other position, they don't care who the QB is. Look at Holmes and Rice just last year
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I am writing all of your names down
And if we trade up to get either of the "top two" quarterbacks (who in your mind can’t possibly bust) and they underperform, and then you offer up the second reason of at least "we took a swing at it" and then drive back away from the idea of trading up in the first place…
then I will find all of you and make you wear number five jerseys with the name Schuyler on the back… and then we will beat you like the horse pictured at the top of this thread.
How about this? Give me three examples in NFL history where trading up for one player workout for a team. And you do not get to use examples of teams that were "one player away" (because we certainly are not)
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
Here, let me start…
Last year, Julio Jones.
The Atlanta Falcons decided that they needed a playmaker on offense so that they could hang with teams like Green Bay and New Orleans… remind me, how many points did they hang on the Giants?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 4:54 PM EST up reply actions
Julio jones was a rookie and put up decent numbers
54 catches 959 and 8 touchdowns 17.8 ypc that is pretty good for a rookie and 2nd receiver. A.J. Green was 65 1,057 and 7 touchdowns. so the move to get Jones was not just for this one year but a 4-5 year window from Atlanta standpoint
Yes, but your whole argument is that we have to have a quarterback THIS year
And that we cannot wait for the likes of Matt Barkley, Landry Jones etc. etc.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 6:05 PM EST up reply actions
Atlanta already have a franchise QB
I was talking about the Falcons making a move to pick up Julio Jones, it is a good move cause they are looking at a 5 year window to win a SB, they want to take advantage of Matt Ryan’s best years they was 13-3 in 2010 so they feel he will help them in the long run
The think the ultimate arguement is
that we have waited, and waited, and waited…………..and waited, then traded, and brough FA…………and tried later round projects……………………..none of which worked. There are two good QB prospects out there in this draft. Very Good prospects. Why keep waiting?
We know damn well the Rams don’t need Griffin. This is a given. What better opportunity are we going to have, than to trade up this year with them?
To get Barkley, Wilson or Bray next year, we are most likely going to have to be in the top 10 again. I expect us to be better than 5-11 in 2012, even if we still have a weak QB. Plus, I think RG3 is a better prospect than some of next years guys.
We need to stop fearing the unknown. The Schuler mess is far behind us. So is the Ramsey and Campbell experiments.
We need to stop living in the past, and take a big step towards our future.
Crying Lion
Wilson and Murray (may) come out as well
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Never said they couldn't bust
I am just saying building a team without the most important part doesn’t make a lot of sense, unless the other parts can all be cryogenically frozen and then thawed out when it’s time for you to draft your qb when you are “one player away.”
You realize that you just proved my point for me?
You would have to freeze the roster if you trade away too many resources for one position because you then have no depth.
Perennial contenders have depth, we do not end there is no way to get depth other than by using the draft effectively… you cannot build depth through free agency, all Redskins fans should know this by now.
You want to make a one-year run or do you want to build a team properly?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:01 PM EST up reply actions
The Giants have depth along the defensive line (perhaps WR as well) and that's about it
Yet somehow they are in the playoffs, 1 game away from the Super Bowl and everyone is talking about who???
Eli Manning, the QB they traded up for.
"Everyone" are frequently lemmings
I am not talking about Eli, I would make the case that the Giants are a good team because of
Ownership
coaching
Defense(especially the line, having an effective for man rush is key)
above average to good running game
playmakers at wide receiver and quarterback
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 10:26 AM EST up reply actions
The biggest factor is that they had TC like forever.
Give Shanny a 10 year run and we’ll be contending every year.
Giants trading up for Eli – dude has a chip(and could get another this year)
Jets trading up for Revis – guy is the best in the business
Cowboys trading up for Dorsett – HOFer
49ers trading up for Jerry Rice – HOFer
49ers trading up for Steve Young – HOFer
Crying Lion
Okay, off the top of my head
So I could be wrong on some of this…
Eli Manning, did they trade up one spot and pass on Philip Rivers? Kind of hard to be wrong there. And I still think San Diego ended up with more talent in the long run.
Hard to argue against Revis… good example
Cowboys trade up almost consistently it seems for playmakers such as Tony Dorsett, Roy Williams etc. etc. sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t… honestly though, I can’t remember Tony Dorsett playing in a Super Bowl (again, I could be mistaken that was a long time ago)
Jerry Rice-you will get no argument from me on him either– excellent move.
Steve Young-I don’t remember San Francisco drafting him. He played for the LA express in the old USFL… are you sure that he was not signed as a free agent?
The other question I have is how many of the above players were chosen in the top 10? I’m almost positive that Rice, Dorsett, and young were not
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:32 PM EST up reply actions
Dorsett did play
against the Broncos and Steelers I believe
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
The Cowboys traded the 24th pick in the draft and three second-round choices to the Seattle Seahawks to move up to take Dorsett.8 He played with the Cowboys through the 1987 season.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:52 PM EST up reply actions
Dorsett was a monster coming out of Pitt
he was the 2nd overall pick and Rice was 16th overall when he was drafted
The only problem with the Jerry Rice example
Is that he was a great player added to the already stacked 49ers… so he does not meet the criteria of not having joined a team that was needing a lot of talent… the 1984 49ers were a dominant team
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:59 PM EST up reply actions
that is true about
Dorsett as well
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Rivers/Manning trade was 3 or 4 spots
Cowboys had some holes due to retirement in "77, so Dorsett definitly counts.
Crying Lion
So that is three examples in the last 35 years
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 6:14 PM EST up reply actions
i think there is a real chance that Sanchez isn't safe....
so the jets could be added to that list too
To be fair, I only rejected two of them
And unless someone else comes on with more examples that is still only three in 35 years… that makes it somewhat rare, which is my point
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 10:28 AM EST up reply actions
And I still think San Diego ended up with more talent in the long run.
This doesn’t matter. We were talking about the team befefitting from trading up, and the Giants definitly benefitted.
Crying Lion
So did San Diego
Question is who will benefit more from the proposed trade? The Rams or us?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 6:15 PM EST up reply actions
Both
thats the idea beind a trade. Both parties benefit. We get our QB, they can fill in more holes.
Win, win for each.
Crying Lion
I bet Shanahan and Fisher are already talking about this.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 16, 2012 6:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I already ordered my Griffin jersey.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 16, 2012 6:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I had Andrew
make me a Locker in a Redskins uni profile pic last year. We saw how that worked.
Crying Lion
Let's not get carried away again
I heard this from you last year concerning Sam Bradford and this year concerning coaching vacancies…
how about "I believe there is a deal…"?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Some of these are wrong
The Eli-Rivers trade was forced by Archie not by the choices of the teams; especially San Diego. Steve Youbg wasn’t drafted by SF; he was drafted by TB and he sucked there. I’m not sure, but I don’t believe the Cowboys moved up to get Dorsett; I think they just sucked the previous year.
I thought Tampa drafted
Young in the supplemental and then ended up trading him to the 49ers 2 yrs later
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I forgot about his Tampa Bay history
The dude must’ve been 28 or 29 by the time the 49ers got around to him… wait a second… were we not just discussing Weedon elsewhere?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:44 PM EST up reply actions
The Falcons
May have had an extremely poor showing in that playoff game, but they wouldn’t be in the playoffs without Matt Ryan in my opinion either.
And they did not trade up to choose Matt Ryan
You just can’t go desperately snatching at something because you don’t have it
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by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
Given our situation
We most certainly can and should trade up. I hear all this bullshit about depth, but its amazing how much a franchise QB all of a sudden makes your depth better without changing a thing. Is freaking Laurent Robinson (3rd receiver)on Dallas that good or is it partly because of Romo? Would the two NE TE’s be so good without Brady? Offensive depth is automatically improved with a franchise QB.
by Bryan Black on Jan 16, 2012 5:54 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Yup, definitely have to agree
The Rams are on offensive juggernaut since they drafted Sam Bradford… yup, definitely just need to tweak a few things to be a consistent Super Bowl winning team. (And they still did not have to trade up to get him)
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
david carr was great as well
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I have to agree with you there a QB make the talent around them better
You have to get your QB first and then you build off of that. The first thing all the expansion teams did was get a QB first and then worry about everything else. in 95 Carolina drafted Kerry Collins, and Jacksonville traded for Mark Brunell. in 99 Browns took Tim Couch, and 2002 Texans took David Carr. so you start with finding a Franchise QB first.
I thought Tim couch was not good and i was not high on David Carr, they got it wrong but they had to get QB’s
None of those are trade-up scenarios
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 16, 2012 6:17 PM EST up reply actions
remember the Panthers traded back to land Collins
they didn’t move up for QB, they got extra picks for taking their guy. Also the 3 guys you mentioned being drafted all were busts. That isn’t exactly a ringing endorsement.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
To clarify
You have to hit on the right guy and I believe, as do many others, that either RGIII or Luck are as close to sure things as you are going to get. Sure, either of them can bust, but it is less likely with these 2 as it is with the others IMO. Skins Fan 77, your arguement with Bradford is unfounded because he missed 6 games this year, and still outperformed Rex. Bradford (or RGIII) automatically makes this team better. Every position on offense, defense and special teams ultimately benefits with better QB play. Its what we have been missing for too damn long, get our freakin guy…be smart about the price we pay but get OUR guy. Let the young guy take his lumps and we go into the following year and plug additional holes. Its in my opinion that there arent quite as many “holes” once that position is improved.
that is what i have been saying all along
@ Bryan you get a good talented QB in place and then you fill in around him. Let him take his lumps and then he will grow and learn, and be ready to win, instead of wasting more time with a 2nd tier QB, or waiting until next year then have to wait another year for the QB of the future you draft next year to go through growing pains. This is the time to make a move.
by Highspeed30 on Jan 16, 2012 11:47 PM EST up reply actions
Okay Brian,
If you do not think that Sam Bradford is a good example, how about these?
Vince Young
Mark Sanchez
Jason Campbell
Patrick Ramsey
None of these guys helped their teams offenses very much if at all; and in two of the cases, their team’s had to trade picks to select them.
AGAIN–no one is arguing that quarterback needs to be upgraded… we all agree on that. It’s just that some of us (most of us?) Don’t see the wisdom in panicking and throwing too many resources at one position.
No one here has a compelling argument to support this kind of move in my opinion.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 10:36 AM EST up reply actions
It is not a panick move
I am not suggesting throwing the whole draft and half of next year draft at one player like the Ricky williams deal, but make a move to pick up 1 of the top 2 QB prospects in at least 5 years. And Once that QB position is filled we wont be sitting here every year wondering who is gonna play QB and if they will play at a high level?? so for the next 10-15 years we could be set at the most important position in football
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 10:54 AM EST up reply actions
Look–the whole problem with your argument is this
You cannot guarantee that the player you are trading up for will be a franchise player.
The draft is just like the roulette wheel or shooting craps. It is a five dollar bet minimum, why would you place a $15 bet? It makes no sense, you are not getting higher return with your higher risk.
Prove me wrong on this, and you will have convinced me
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
It is like Card counting in 21
If you know what you are doing you will win, you place the higher bets on the times when you are most likely to win. Luck and RG3 are most likely to be good players. And to your roulette analogy if you place a bet for a single number to hit the pay out is 35 to 1 @ 5 dollars you would get 175 but @15 or the higher risk you would get 525
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 12:06 PM EST up reply actions
Cut with the Blackjack analogy
In the NFL draft, most of the QB’s who are “likely to be good players” have turned out to be mediocre or worse NFL QB’s.
RG3 is not a sure thing, and the Redskins team current constructed cannot afford to trade a bunch of resources for a mediocre or worse QB.
It’s simply not worth the risk for what it will cost.
by StephanHart on Jan 17, 2012 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
I am saying it is a calculated risk
There is risk with anyone you pick in the draft, there are no sure things but there are better prospects than others and Luck is suppose to be as close to cant miss as there is, and RG3 is not far behind, so take a calculated risk
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 12:36 PM EST up reply actions
and i was just responding to roulette analogy
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
and that's why I used roulette and craps
Because they are not "skill" games… somehow I knew you would use the blackjack analogy–it is a poor analogy for the NFL draft in my opinion
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
draftin players is not just the luck of the draw
It takes a lot of hard work and skill to draft players and project them to the NFL. You got to have good talent scouts, and find guys that fit into your offensive and defensive systems so i would say there is a lot of skill in drafting a guy. Sometimes i just dont work out for various reasons but drafting is a skill
my point about the expansion teams taking QB's was not how successful the QB's was but how the first piece of the puzzle they looked to get in place was QB
by Highspeed30 on Jan 16, 2012 11:43 PM EST up reply actions
I understand what you are saying
But you are acting as if the next 10 years draft picks will be traded to move up, at the most, 4 spots. No. It will cost 3 picks, scattered over 2+ years. Unfortunately, we don’t have the luxury of sucking really really bad this past year to have a higher pick…you play with the cards you are dealt. Forget Huckleberry Flynn and forget any of the second round and lower round QB’s unless you absolutely have to. The 1st round bust QB’s just stand out simply because they were first rounders…a higher % of 2nd rounders don’t live up to their draft level. I can post a list much longer than the few you have listed here. I respectfully disagree with your thinking here…but hey, that’s what makes these discussions fun!
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 6:38 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
We need a QB.
If on draft day, around my fourth beer, if I see “TRADE” and see the Skins logo come up and hear “The Redskins select Robert Griffin….”
I’ll poop in my pants from joy.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 16, 2012 6:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions
What Makes Josh Freeman a 2nd Tier QB and Joey Harringtona 1st Tier QB?
I don’t get your Tiers.
What makes Matt Schaub a 2nd Tier QB?
Why does Stefan McGee and Kevin O’Connell have a tier?
And the Best Question of All: Why is Rex Grossman a 2nd tier QB when He lead his team to the Superbowl?
Throw your Tier’s away. They don’t make sense.
it was based off of the year in which they were drafted
in whatever year a player was drafted, normally there are 2 top QB prospects in a given draft year and everyone after that is considered 2nd tier QB’s.
But some years like in 2004 Eli, Rivers and Big Ben was all considered Top QB prospects and if Barkley would entered the draft this year he would also be considered a top Prospect and not in the 2nd tier
For all of you
who are against trading up for RG3, tell me one concern you have about him, or one thing you think he does bad.
Crying Lion
I'm not necessarily against trading up for RG3, because we most definitely need a QB with the potential to be elite...
I’m okay with trading a slew of picks away, as long as we’re aggressive in free agency to secure the line and give him a true, proven playmaker at WR. I’d also like to draft TE Green from LA Lafayette if we don’t bring Davis back
I truly believe that the biggest reason why most are agianst the trade up is cause they dont believe RG3 will be good or elite
i agree with ptowny about getting a WR in here for him to work with
you can't question his athleticism...
it’s all about whether or not he can call his own plays, or read defenses pre-snap. I don’t think he did that very much at Baylor.
I think in a spread
reading a defense pre-snap is very important. We run the spread at our high school, and we ask a hell of a lot from our QB both pre and post snap. I actually think this is one aspect of a spread that is way overlooked.
It’s really about finding the mismatch vs the defense. If you can’t read the defense, you won’t be successful in a spread, unless that spread is predicated on dinl and dunk passes and screens.
Crying Lion
so do you think he has experience...
with reading defenses pre snap
and
calling his own plays?
I’m not saying he can’t do it, I’m just saying that this is something that the teams are going to question him on during his interviews at the combine, because I don’t think he has shown these 2 things…to no fault of his own
Oh yes
I think he has pleanty of experience with reading defenses. I wouldn’t say he calls his own plays, but I’d bet he audibles a lot in that offense. Even at the high school level, we have a ton of audibles, and we run a very similar offense – true spred/zone read scheme.
Also, Griffin is a very intelligent kid.
Crying Lion
No doubt...
I like him for sure…but if you’re looking for negatives, that’s the small stack.
I think some people could worry about his durability becuase of his past injuries…but who doesn’t get hurt in football at some point right. He’s healthy and fully recovered
Yeah, thats what I'm seeing too
not many negatives with this kid.
All the others have some concern or another.
Barkley – Arm strength
Luck – tries to fit too many balls into DC
Weeden – age
Foles – accuracy, mobility
Tannehill – not enoug experience
Jones – mobility
Moore – size
Cousins – too many to name
Wilson – not enough time as a starter
R Wilson – Size
I just don’t see these with RG3
Crying Lion
Accuracy isn't one of Foles weaknesses...
and neither is mobility.
The guy can move for his size, and he almost has a 70 percent completion percentage throughout his Arizona career..
He threw quite a few picks this year, but it was mainly because they were losing and he forced a little too much. He didn’t have much talent around him, especially protecting him, so he had to be on target, his receivers weren’t working for the catches quite the way Blackmon did for Weeden
I actually thought he had some decent skill guys
I liked Criner and their RB(forgot his name – younger kid)
Crying Lion
Was it Carey?
he’s pretty good…no Barry Sander’s Jr., but he’s good.
I can’t wait til BSJ blows Stanford up this year!
Yeah, kid is nice!
Funny too; totally different runner than his old man………….don’t you think?
Crying Lion
I don't know, he makes a lot of those nifty little stutter steps...
i watched a bunch of youtube highlights of him, he it seems like he went untouched in most of his 60+ yard TD runs
Agreed though to your initial point, that his weaknesses are small....
i’ve been promoting Foles since last offseason, so I’m a little defensive haha
Neither did Cam
The difference between an athletic QB and a statue of a QB is that the athletic ones have a fallback option, their legs. I think Cam is definitely better at reading defenses than he was when he was drafted but he has the ability to make a play with his legs while he is learning. If the guy wasnt mobile, I would see cause for great concern but the mobility helps alot in a QB’s development or adjusting to the NFL
Not true
I don’t care what name the quarterback has–I just don’t think it is good franchise practice to throw inordinate amount of resources toward one position.
I have asked repeatedly for a reason why those that support it think that it is smart–no one has convinced me yet, and no one has even put together a well thought out reason
Just because "I wanted a franchise quarterback" is a ridiculous "reason"
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
so let me answer your question...
with a question. What will it take to convince you?
I’ll answer it for you…Nothing. For every reason we state, you have a response, like “How do you know Luck is going to be great?”
Luck WILL be great, RG3 has enormous potential (I’m not guaranteeing greatness, but his chances are very good), who knows after that. Some, none, all of the next guys NO ONE knows. Our preferences are for the ones with as much of a chance as anyone in the last 15 years…
I guess you're right
I have just seen so many "can’t miss" or "high potential" players not living up to their expectations–and many of them have been drafted by the Redskins.
I asked above for examples of quarterbacks drafted by trading up that were successful, I got one–Eli Manning.
The thing is about Eli Manning and John Elway is that both of them dictated that they would not play for certain teams, thereby forcing trades… that is not the case so far this year.
We traded up to get Jason Campbell, it did not work.
We chose Patrick Ramsey, did not work (can’t remember if we traded up)
we chose Schueler, did not work (and he was a top five pick)
My point is that there is no such thing as a sure franchise quarterback in the draft and therefore extending more than one pic on one player doesn’t make any sense.
All I’m asking for is an example of where this worked under the circumstances that the Redskins are in right now. We need more than two or three players as starters, and still need to upgrade the talent level almost entirely across the chart.
Just give me one example of a team that traded up to get a quarterback and had it work.
Last year we had the same endless debate about whether to trade up for the likes of Jake locker and others. The year before it was Bradford. All of these players were "the best prospects at quarterback in the last X. years"
we hear it every year, but it is seldom true–and that is the root of the problem
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
You cant be passive or conservative based on past draft busts
In the year they drafted Heath Shuler in 1994, it just so happen that all the QB’s in that class was bad and worse.
The same goes for the 2002 draft when they drafted Patrick Ramsey, it was one of the worst drafts for QB’s
This year is not a great QB rich draft but there are 2 great prospects and you have to get one of them.
That is if you believe what the Mel Kiper and Todd Mcshay say.
I am not basing my opinion on what the major scouts say, You have to watch how a player respond in game situations, how they handle themselves, if they are able to make big play when the need to on 3rd and long, and not just watch a few highlight tapes and make a opinion based off of that.
Both Luck and RG3 graduated college early, both are high character guys, both have demonstraed great leadership skills and both have played at a high level for consecutive years.
Last year i watched Cam Newton and Auburn comeback against Alabama, and he did it with his arm not his legs, he had some charcter concerns so i thought he was a top 15 type of pick maybe not #1 overall and if i was carolina I would have traded the pick. Newton played very well this past season. But the rest of the field last season i thought was not that good at all late 1st rd at best but it remains to be seen how good Jake Locker, Gabbert or Ponder will be.
I don't know where you got the crystal ball
That gives you the foresight to determine the future. In 1994 Redskins fans were ecstatic to get Schuyler (sorry about the spelling, can’t help it)
I don’t think we were as universally pleased with Campbell or Ramsey at the time of their selection.
If we are able to trade up at a reasonable cost to get a quarterback, many here will be happy. If one falls into our lap at number six, almost everyone here will be happy.
If the Redskins fail to draft a reasonable prospect (someone who can start at some point next year) then I think almost all of us will not be happy.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
1994 was a thin draft class
and turned out to be a horrible class for QBs, but going in both Schuler and Dilfer were highly regarded.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
you didn't hear it from me...
my perspectives are based on what I see, not some self-proclaimed draft guru.
All last years prospects were horrific IMHO. Bradford was a good prospect, but he did come from spread offense and had the injury. Guys like Sanchez were not on my list of “must-haves”, though they were probably better than what we had. I knew Jamarcus Russell was going to bomb, Alex Smith did not blow my Scottish skirt up. I was sad when we picked Campbell (worse, we traded up for him), not overly thrilled with Ramsey. Actually, after reviewing the list above, Carson Palmer was really the only guy that I would say excited me.
Andrew Luck is the best college QB I have ever seen. He demonstrates an understanding light years ahead of any I can remember. So, when I say that I want to trade up for him, that is based on what I have seen, my evaluation, and projection of his talent.
RG3 is a fall back option, that I am not sure will be great, though what I have seen in games is incredible. My concerns are more aptitude related, since he also comes from a spread offense philosophy. He has the physical talents, he needs the intellectual to truly become great.
My thoughts about Flynn is my evaluation, I am not persuaded by others. I don’t believe he is the next coming. And his $$$$ expectations make me want to run, let some other team make that debacle decision.
So 1977, I am not going to provide you with an answer of previous trade ups that worked. That is all irrelevant to me. I propose my ideas based on this team, where we are (talent / age) and possibilities available and what those will do for this team.
Then tell me why draft decisions
made from regimes years ago are so important to you? It seems to me that you are more worried because of the past versus what may or not be the best for our future. Forget Campbell, bad decision. Forget Ramsey, bad decision. Forget Shuler, incredibly bad decision. Shanahan, Allen and their personnel staff never made those choices so don’t let past bad decisions determine the future
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 6:54 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
So I take it
if Shanahan and Allen decide not to get a QB in this draft and sign Matt Flynn instead you will regard it as a good decision?
I, as a fan, wouldn't agree with that
But if they feel that he gives us the best chance to win there isn’t a damn thing I cam do about it except support him and the decision until given a reason to think otherwise. I’m just Joe Fan and am honestly going to be excited whoever the hell lines up under center except Beck or Rex…let’s just keep this thing moving in a positive direction.
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 9:39 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
of course I wouldn't...
as much as I disagreed with the selections of Campbell, Ramsey and Rosenfels. Now, there isn’t anything I can do about whomever they pick, unless I have a new office at Redskins Park, with the GM sign on the door.
Signing Flynn will be a BAD idea…
At least for me
Its not about RGIII, its about the cost to get him. If he misses then we it sets the organization back 2 to 3 years.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
The organization has been set back for 20 years
This has been the longest rebuild in sports, If he miss he miss but he has all the tools to be elite. and this organization has been one of the worst in NFL for 2 decades. So what is the worry about??? building all that depth and tryna make the team all around strong before you find a Franchise QB will set the Franchise back cause that takes time, time that already been wasted on 2nd tier type of QB’s
by Highspeed30 on Jan 16, 2012 11:53 PM EST up reply actions
IMO The organization
has been set back over the last 20 years becasue we 1. continue to trade all our draft picks away, so we cant put together a solid team, 2. Conitnue to sign FAs passed their prime tohuge contracts, 3. Fail to develop the few young guys we do get via the draft, and 4. change coaches and systems every 2 years.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
you may be right....
so, I suggest we -
Nix #2, as I’m sure the FO has demonstrated with last years FA pickups;
Nix #3, since this is a completely different coaching staff as the one we have had here before, allowing them to develop the young talent we have picked up;
Nix #4, by keeping the coaching staff for the entire 5 years.
Ridding ourselves of 3 of the 4 issues should take us a long ways.
by jgibbsfan1 on Jan 17, 2012 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Now, you see there is a reasonable argument
And it is the first one I have read in the 300+ comments here.
I would have to agree that if we improved significantly as a franchise on points two through four, that trading up for a player would be far less risky.
I could get behind that in this situation (if/when it exists)
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
I am truly sane...
and I am glad we can agree on something, which really is as obvious as the sun.
I am still a proponent of trading up for Luck (due to his potential and rare opportunity) or RG3 (due to the reduced cost to trade up for him).
I like the direction of this team. I feel like it is so close to being a team to be reconed with in a couple of years.
I can get behind this logic
Luck simply seems to be the real deal. If RG3 comes relatively cheaply, then I guess I cant complain about the Redskins moving up to get their guy.
It all comes down to how Shanahan feels about RG3. If he’s blown away, we will make the move to go get him. If he falls in love with someone else, we’ll move in a different direction.
I think both Luck and RG3 are good fits for what Shanny likes to do
He like the sprint right options, and boot legs he ran with Steve young as a coordinator, and John Elway, Jake Plummer and Jay Cutler as coach. Both are mobile and can make plays downfield with their Arm. But it all come down to how bad shanny feel he need a QB upgrade, i think he did not get another QB last season cause of the lockout but i dont forsee him doing the same this year
No doubt shannahan and Allen have the org.
Finally headed in the right direction. My point was that the problem with the redskins over the last 20 yrs was not limited to not having a good QB.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
No.
The main problem was Vinny Cerratto’s philosophy. The main problem was not having draft picks and not having young talent of our own to develop. The main problem was relying on Free Agency to fill the holes on the team. All of which can be caused again by giving away draft picks to trade up.
It is so easy to just blame Vinny Cerratto and Dan Snyder but
They was a losing organization before Syder brought the team, he got the team in 99’ the was losing for at least 7 seasons prior to his ownership.
Ricky Williams deal
They have had picks and even before snyder got the team they Sucked and it was cause they had these bums playing QB
They was under a “different philosophy” yet they still was not good and it comes down to whom they picked cause The Redskins had drafted like 5-7 players each year except 2003.
Case in point in 2008 they drafted 10 players and 2 are still with the team Fred Davis, and Rob Jackson 1 starter and 1 backup in fact from 2007-2009 they drafted 21 players and they got 3 starters and 2 back ups Landry, Fred Davis, Brian Orakpo, Kevin Barnes, Rob Jackson. so it is more about them not picking the right guy vs them not having picks so the scouting aint very good.
Also when you dont have a QB to play at a high level people get fired, and when coaches get fired you have to change everything and start over so certain players which might have fit in old regimes dont fit and are therefore cut, so if Shanny fix the QB problem maybe he can stick around for a while and enjoy some success.
Case in point in 2008 they drafted 10 players and 2 are still with the team Fred Davis, and Rob Jackson 1 starter and 1 backup in fact from 2007-2009 they drafted 21 players and they got 3 starters and 2 back ups Landry, Fred Davis, Brian Orakpo, Kevin Barnes, Rob Jackson. so it is more about them not picking the right guy vs them not having picks so the scouting aint very good.
In other words, the team’s losing was the result of shitty management and shitty drafting, not shitty QB play.
One could argue that with better QB play
some of these draft picks would have looked better…we will never know though….
when you change coaches every 3 years certain players aint gonna fit
But like I said the MAIN reason why the have been losers for 2 decades is bad QB play, Snyder was not running the team from 92-99 yet they was still horrible and like i said the got the Saints whole draft in 98 and 1st and 3rd in 99 so a lack of draft picks was not the issue. the more picks you have the better your chance at getting players to fill spots but like in from 2007-2009 you drafted 21 players and only got 3 starters not all that good, but i hear people arguing against trading up for a guy that could change your whole franchise around???
You didn't answer my question.
You said they were horrible and in a bad position, but the went to the playoffs and even made it to the divisional round, where they only lost by 1 point.
I want you to explain to me how that is a horrible team. Quit dodging the question.
i meant 99 draft, but the team went to the playoffs in 2007.
The goal is not going to the playoffs it is winning a Lombardi trophy, my point is you start a team by figuring out who is gonna play QB first, if u have a expansion team their first priority is find a QB, and then build around ther QB. I am not saying and never have said it is better to have a elite QB with a bad team, defense, and special teams, o-line, wr, rb. but i am saying you need a QB to play at a high level to win, playing at a high level is not saying that QB is a elite QB. but playing good football at least a 2 to 1 touchdown int ratio, making plays down the field kepping the defens honest.
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
You said earlier
yeah they in a real bad position
going to the playoffs and all, it really aint work out for them.
Is going to the playoffs the mark of a good team or is it not? Atlanta went to the playoffs this season, and you seem to think that their trade up for Julio Jones was a fantastic idea because they’re already in a good position – or in other words, a good team. Why else would trading up for a WR be a good idea unless the rest of your team was set?
In 99 the Redskins won the division and made it to the divisional round of the playoffs, but you maintain that they were awful before Snyder and Vinny started messing with stuff. Your statements are in direct contradiction with each other. Either the Redskins were good before Dan and Vinny started meddling or not. Either the current iteration of the Falcons is good or it is not. What you say about one must also be said about the other.
Moving on though, why does the QB position have to be the first position you address? It could just as easily be RB or C or ILB in that sentence and it would make exactly as much sense. No, the first question every team should ask is “what is our team identity”? With that in mind you evaluate which parts of your team are strong and which are not. If you have a good linebacking corps or DLine or secondary, you could try to establish the identity of a strong defense and ball control offense – much like the Ravens and the 49ers. if you have a good QB and WRs you could be a pass-first, shootout-oriented team like the Packers. From there you take players that will help you fit that team identity.
The first question is not “who should be our QB”. The first question is “who are we as a team?” right now I think that with a much better OL and slightly better QB, an upgrade at CB and the replacement of one Safety, we could be a team much like the 49ers or Ravens. neither of those teams have great (or even good, to some) QBs, but they have strong Defenses and good running games. And they’re in the Championship games for their respective conferences. I think Matt Flynn can fit that mold nicely, or even go beyond it. That wouldn’t be so bad, would it?
by TheDeepBall on Jan 17, 2012 11:36 PM EST up reply actions
Dont take my comments out of context.
when talking about the Falcons i said that they did not make that move for Julio Jones as a one season type of move i said they are looking at a 4/5 year window to try and win it all.
Moving on the Redskins was horrible from 92- 99 the only year they won a division title was 99 cause they had excellent QB play but to call a team good when they only won 1 division title in 20 years is off base.
And no matter what your identity is you are looking for a QB first like i said every expansion team found a QB first, and then they figured out the rest.
by Highspeed30 on Jan 18, 2012 12:52 AM EST up reply actions
All I can say is I wish
Shanny started to rebuild in year one instead of making that stupid trade McNabb. If we had kept that 2nd and 4th rd pick, traded Carter t(coming off an 11 sack season) for an extra 4th, and traded the #4 pcik (TW) down to pick up a couple of extra picks…. I would be so onboard for trading up to get Luck or Griffin.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I agree with you there
But truthfully the only move that I was truly against when it happened was that Donovan McNabb trade.
And I wanted the other tackle Russell instead of Trent
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 4:50 PM EST up reply actions
I remember when the skins
signed carter from SF he could not play in the 3-4 there, so when the skins switched I thought it was a no brainer to trade him.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Yes, but we screwed up our leverage
By not trading him first
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 4:55 PM EST up reply actions
Yep
Unfortunately, that first year, I think Shanny was bit too arrogant, and thought he could coaching could get more out of guys than it really could
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Oh hell no
No way is/was quarterback the main problem.
The conversation was just starting to make sense, let’s not go back into the abyss
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 4:48 PM EST up reply actions
BTW
does that mean skin fan since 77.. me too . ah, the Jack Pardee days…
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Yeah, remember "the Pardee has just begun"?
35 years of Redskins football
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 4:53 PM EST up reply actions
I do indeed
and the ’79 draft class. Hard to believe we got all those guys with no picks in the first 4 rds
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
How does 3 picks set us back
2-3 years? Just curious as to your thought pattern behind that. If we are talking about moving up to pick#2 the trade value chart would seem to indicate swapping picks plus our 1st next year and an additional 2nd. Well, by definition we haven’t lost our pick this year so ultimately we lose a 1st and a 2nd….how does that set us back 2-3 years?
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 7:03 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Do you honestly believe it will only take 3 picks to move to the #2 or 3 spot?
If so you are delusional.
It will cost closer to 6 or 7 high-round (as in, within the top 4 rounds) picks, including at least 2 firsts.
6-7 picks is insane
No way, not a chance. Atlanta overpaid last year and I don’t recall them even giving up 7 picks and if I’m not mistaken they moved up from lower 1st to top 5. It may end up being 4 at most but not 7.
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 8:01 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
atlanta did not overpay
They set a precedent. Also, Atlanta moved from #27 to #6 – a difference of 920 points on the draft pick value chart. To move up to #2 would put us at a difference of 1,000 points. Add that to the fact that there will b a premium on the price (and believe me, there WILL be a premium) and you’re looking at a bare minimum of 5 draft picks, and likely more than that.
A premium?
There would be a premium if and only if a QB needy team feels as is they have to grab him at the 2nd pick or if another team sees another player that they need to grab at #2. There has to be a need by multiple teams to set the premium. We can agree to disagree on Atlanta and their trade because we don’t know if another team was involved, thus increasing what it took to get that pick. We can have differing opinions but I don’t think there is one of us that is advocating getting into a bidding war to trade up
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 9:56 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
There is another QB needy team
and they’re ahead of us, with more ammunition to trade up. even if Cleveland doesn’t want to trade up, the team we would have to trade with (likely the Rams) would know EXACTLY who we were trading up for and why/who we were trying to get past. Therefore they would have tons of leverage. Thus, a premium.
by TheDeepBall on Jan 17, 2012 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
The Browns are not going to trade up
The Dolphins is the only other team that may want to trade up, and like i said 1 of the 3 teams needing a QB will get Matt Flynn it could be the Browns, Dolphins or Redskins. in fact i believe that Manning will be released in march as well so we just have to wait and see, but it aint gonna be 6-7 picks anyway
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
I think we've gotten to the point of the debate right there: the value of the #2 pick
If there is a high market for RG3, the cost to move up to draft him will be substantially high, and prohibitive in the minds of many fans.
If Washington is really the only team that covets RG3, and is in the best draft position to get him, then you’re talking about a more reasonable cost associated with trading up to #2.
We’ll have to see what happens.
Rams
They have a need also and if they feel the same about their situation as i see it they need multiple picks, Blackmon or Claiborne. If their draft strategy is to gain multiple picks by trading out then the premium is only as high as the highest offer so the market determines the value. And I’m not sold on Cleveland pulling the trade up, I still feel that they are going to push for Flynn and trade out of their spot. Most likely to us so they can grab Richardson and gain two. additional picks
by Bryan Black on Jan 18, 2012 10:01 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
i'm against trading up due to the price
it isn’t that I don’t think Griffin can be great. It’s that I think you severely limit his chance for success by trading away 2-4 additional high draft picks. Without that additional talent around him (or even on defense) it will be a lot harder for Griffin to succeed. Especially if we try playing him from day one.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
It's valid
but don’t forget, picks to surround him with have chances of being busts also.
I was more looking for someone who was afraid of trading up do to a direct concern of his.
Crying Lion
he looks too much like Macho Harris with that hair..
if he cuts it, then we can trade the world for him
I think we can survive from our 1st and 2nd this year and our 1st next year
Solely based on the draft that we had this past year. If this past draft had not netted some good young players I would definitely be more concerned. The only way that I am comfortable is trading back is if we get a deal similar to what Cleveland got last year although I think thats unlikely unless someone is dying for Kirkpatrick or Richardson, because there is a drop off in talent after the 5th pick. If you cant get that deal from another team, then get our guy in this draft, bring in some smart FA’s….worry about next years draft when that time comes
I agree with this
Nobody is talking about the Falcons being crippled for not having their 1st rounder this upcoming year because of the Julio Jones trade.
The Falcons have put themselves in a bad position.
They traded up unnecessarily and wasted picks they could have spent on their Defense. Now they have to hope they can find good players in later rounds.
by TheDeepBall on Jan 16, 2012 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
yeah they in a real bad position
going to the playoffs and all, it really aint work out for them. They was not looking at just this season why they made the play for Julio Jones they feel they had a 4 or 5 year window to win it all and he could help them get there, and he will replace Roddy White as their #1 receiver so it is a good move.
by Highspeed30 on Jan 16, 2012 11:59 PM EST up reply actions
they were the #1 seed last year
They obviously regressed, and need players at some key positions – which they now cannot fill in the first round. Ergo, in a bad position.
by TheDeepBall on Jan 17, 2012 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
A "4 to 5 year window" is still a very shortsighted approach
Their defense lacks talent at many positions and they will not be able to both upgrade the defense and build depth at all the other positions… why is that so hard for you to see?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
what is so hard for you to see??
That the Falcons was in a horrible state after the Vick situation, they got a Good QB and it all turned around for them?? you are not set back for years cause you give up a 1st round pick. Ask what Tampa Bay gave up for Jon Gruden i would say they managed cause they achieved the ultimate goal win the SB
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
The Tampa Bay team was already a very talented group
The Redskins are not
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
they traded more for Gruden than what it will take to get RG3
the Bucs traded 2 1st rd picks and 2 2nd rd picks for a coach, and it worked out for them, at least you would be getting a player at the most important position in football.
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
The Gruden Argument
The Bucs gave up 4 high draft picks in 2002 to trade with the Raiders for Gruden. They won the Superbowl with Dungy’s team in 2002 and then went on to go:
7-9
5-11
11-5 w/ a Wild Card playoff loss
4-12
9-7, Wild Card loss
9-7
Fired Gruden
So did giving up all those resources lead to long term success for the Bucs?
by StephanHart on Jan 17, 2012 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
They wanted to win the SB and they won it.
The Bucs felt a coach was what they needed to get over the hump and they had a window to achieve a SB, and it worked for them. Everyone keep talking about long term sucess the Redskins have been bad for a long time by playing average and less than average QB’s
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
I am not saying i agree with the Bucs approach
but they won a SB by doing it that way. I would not have made that type of trade for a coach
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
They did it with a free-agent quarterback
That the Redskins got rid of for a free-agent quarterback named Jeff George.
How the heck does this support your argument?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 1:12 PM EST up reply actions
My point is
The Bucs were a very good team when they made their move to trade resources to get the one piece they needed to win a championship.
We are a team in the middle of a rebuild, and do not not have the luxury of swinging and missing on a trade-up.
I know you’re convinced that it will only take 3 draft picks to move up for RG3. If this is the case, maybe its worth the risk; however, I think the market will force the value of the #2 overall pick way up.
by StephanHart on Jan 17, 2012 12:01 PM EST up reply actions
We will see how much it will cost to move up.
if it was 2012 1st, 2nd, and 3rd, and 2013 1st, 2nd and 3rd that would be too much. The Browns will not trade their picks cause they have as many holes if not more than Washington. So that leaves Miami and the Redskins to make a deal. Miami will have to offer a better deal than the Redskins to move up but they aint gonna offer 1,2,3 in both 2012 and 2013, and Matt flynn will get signed by one of the 3 Browns, Miami or Washington so it will get less complicated IMO.
by Highspeed30 on Jan 17, 2012 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
I think we could have a reasonable discussion
Centered around what teams might scramble for a quarterback and what it might cost for each of them to move up in the draft.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
Not much to complain about
with Griffin other than questions about durability and his happy feet. I Still don’t do the deal this year
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I responded above
I believe it is a poor practice to overpay for a resource… truly successful enterprises find value
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 17, 2012 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
WELL WATCH IN SEE
If we trade up to get RG3 and he turns the team around and win 10 games watch how these ney sayers will change their tunes real fast . If we do not get RG3 it will be the worst mistake shanny ever makes in this team . I am very confident in shanny but if he does not get him i will be real dissapointed in him period . We are just about 4 or 5 players away from having a real good team and the QB is one of the major ones we need plus maybe we could use one more wide reciever as well and a few more offensive guys to protect the blind side as well . Get these few guys and we will win at least 10 games next year watch in see.
It doesn't have to be all or nothing with Griffin...
we can be a successful franchise with a different QB
I've watched Griffin play and he's amazing.
I think of how Cam Newton came in and started running and gunning week one…RG3 will make that look like child’s play.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 16, 2012 8:11 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Griffin is not Cam Newton
not even close. Why do people keep making this comparison? They are not comparable players in my opinion. Cam started running and gunning because he has the body type of linebacker/defensive end/running back built into a quarterback. He runs through and over tacklers. Griffin will have to make his living from the pocket. His speed will become a valuable tool occasionally scrambling to pick up the first down or avoid rushers when the protection breaks down. The “running” as you call it will have to be scaled back in the nfl in my opinion. He is listed at 220 lbs. but appears a little slight and could have durability concerns if he takes and approach to the game like cam newton does.
by davetrembling on Jan 17, 2012 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think he was comparing their styles...
I think he was comparing what Cam did his rookie year to his expectation of what Griffin is going to do
"Honey Badger Don't Care"
It doesn't
And I don’t consider 3 picks to be “all” and I sure as shit hope it doesn’t end up being “nothing”. We have tried the other QB method before and it hasn’t worked. 3 picks lost can be overcome and I refuse to believe that in todays NFL that the team would be set back for 2-3 years. With draft day trades and free agency, you can recover
by Bryan Black on Jan 17, 2012 9:28 AM EST via Android app up reply actions
I think the Redskins have to have playmakers on offense
And the biggest playmaker need to be at QB, and RG3 is a big time playmaker with his arm in the pocket, he throws a great deep ball, hit the receivers in stride so they can run after catch and when all else fail he can extend plays and run if need be.
agreed...
if we’re smart in free agency, we won’t be set back. I know this is a different front office, but in the past we trade picks away (young players) and sign older veterans past their prime (old players). It doesn’t help develop an organization. We really have to be smart in free agency…
"Honey Badger Don't Care"
You know, I made a post last year prior to the draft suggesting we trade our 1st and 2nd rounders...
for and additional 2 first rounders this year. We would be in a position to probably land Luck, Blackmon and maybe Sanders all in the first, with a 2nd rounder left!
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