Going Against my Own Grain: Part II
by Tiller56 on Jan 15, 2012 10:11 AM EST
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I may eventually come to grips with the idea that we may NOT be able to trade up for Luck or RG3. As of right now, I'm having my fun dreaming, so until draft day; let me sleep.
But we all need to be prepared if the trade-up possibility doesn't work out, OR, if we decide to stay put, and RG3 does not fall to the sixth pick. So yet again, in the spirit of being open-minded, I am proposing my new idea.
You all know my concern with Weeden. Let me make sure you heard me correctly - concern(singular). Yes, I have but one concern with Weeden. Age. Weeden will turn 29 in October of this year. If it were not for his age, I would be all over Weeden like flies on shit. He has the size(6'4" 218), arm, smarts, accuracy, mobility and toughness to make him a great NFL quarterback; the question though, is for how long.
Weeded put up gaudy stats as a senior, while leading his team to a 12-1 season, and a #3 rank nationally. For his senior season, Weeden completed 72.3% or his passes, for 4727 yards(an 8.38 YPA average), with 37 TD's and 13 INT's. He was sacked just 12 times. It did help he was throwing to the nations best receiver, yet stats like his can't be overlooked. Weeden had two full seasons as a starter for the Cowboys, and threw for over 9000 yards, and 71 TD's, with just 26 INT's. He completed nearly 70% of his passes over these two years.
Weeden is a very cerebral signal caller, who's maturity has helped him in all aspects of his game. He can play from under center, or operate fluidly in the shotgun. he is great at changing the play at the line of scrimmage, and helping to put his team in the best situation to be successful. Brandon has a great arm(a notch below elite), and can make all the throws with ease. He throws a beautiful, catchable deep ball, and throws extremely well on the move. What I like best about him, is that he uses is eyes and shoulder to move the defender. He is very natural going through progressions, and will take what the defense is giving him, rather than forcing a throw(he didn't always do this). My biggest praise for Weeden is how much he tightened up some of the small things he needed work on between his junior and senior seasons. His footwook in the pocket improved greatly, as did his release, which was more side-arm than you would have liked to see.
My draft plan would be as follows:
Sit tight at the 6 spot, and take either Claiborne, or reach a little for a right tackle like Martin(OT - Stanford), who I believe would fit better in our offense than Reiff. If we opt to trade back in the 1st round, I would again target Martin(if he is still there), Kirkpatrick(CB - Alabama), or Decastro(G - Stanford). I would definitly look to trade back in the 2nd round, resulting in an additional 3rd. This is where I now would have to make my decision on Weeden. If we were to trade back into the later part of the 2nd, I may pull the trigger on Weeden at that spot. If I believed he would still be there in the early part of the 3rd, I would draft him there. If we are able to get Weeden in the 3rd, I would use my 2nd on a CB or O-Linemen(whichever we didn't get in the 1st). The additional second we could get for trading back in the first, would go for either Weeden(as previously mentioned), or a wide receiver - I like Sanu from Rutgers.
I believe this plan could work with Weeden for two reasons: 1) He is the most NFL ready QB outside of Luck. He could be a day one starter, and would present this offense wirth a huge upgrade at the position. 2) If Weeden didn't work out, he didn't cost us a top pick, and we could still look to the 2013 draft for a prospect like Barkley, Jones, Wilson or Bray, and use Weeden as our backup.
If Weeden could give us six good years, it's better than any six years we have had over the last 20.
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I feel like you're inside my head.
I, too, have dreams of somehow snagging Luck or RG3. They’re my first two options, and I’d probably be willing to trade a little too much to get one of them.
But short of that, I think Weeden is my next favorite QB prospect. Like you said, age is the only knock. If he’s 22, I think he’s the consensus 3rd QB on the board. I could definitely live with one of the scenarios you laid out.
"Dominant" is an adjective.
"Dominate" is a verb.
We'll work on "Dominance" once we get the first two figured out.
I'm ok with him
As a developmental prospect. Put it this way, I’d rather have Weeden and Harnish, vs Tannehilll and Flynn
Crying Lion
What in the world tells you Weeden is the 2nd most ready player in the draft behind Luck.
Terrible assessment of Weeden. One glaring stat I must point out is his interceptions. 13 this past year in college ball is atrocious. Decision making is in question. Just like an older QB that won a NATL championship ala Chris Weinke.
Ok, lets compare his INT's
Here is a look at the past 2 season of the top prospects(I even included Barkley, since he’d have been top 5 in he entered this draft) First set of numbers are the 2010 season:
Weeden: 511, 564 atts, 34, 37 TD’s, 14, 13, INT’s
Luck: 372, 404 atts, 32, 37 TD’s, 8, 10 INT’s
RG3: 454, 402 atts, 22, 27 TD’s, 8, 6 INT’s
Tannehill(only one season): 531 atts, 29 TD’s 15 INT’s
Foles: 426, 560 atts, 20, 28 TD’s, 10, 14 INT’s
Barkley: 377, 446 atts, 26, 39 TD’s, 12, 7 INT’s
It’s pretty obvious the more attempts, the more likely you are to throw an INT. There were 3 QB this year who attempten over 500 throws(Weeden, Tannehill and Foles). Weeden had the least ammount of INT’s vs. these 3, yet he also attempted the most passes.
Lets compare him to the field. These numbers are INT’s per attempt over the last two years(first numbers are 2010)Obviously, the higher the number, the better:
Weeden: 36.5, 43 – improvement
Luck: 46.5, 40 – worse
RG3: 56.75, 67 – imporvement
Tannehill – 35
Foles – 42.6, 40 – worse
Barkley – 31, 63 – Big improvement
So, INT’s vs attempts, for the 2011 season, Weeden ranked 2nd best amongst the top elligible draft prospects. Only RG3 was ahead of him. Tannehill was by far the worst.
Sometimes it helps to look a little further into the numbers, before posting that his 13 INT’s were “atrocious”.
Now, you tell me where the rest of his assessment was “terrible”, then we’ll address that too.
Crying Lion
Well you might as well add Case Keenum and Kellen Moore to that pro Weeden assessment.
Are you telling me Case Keenum is as NFL ready as Weeden? Well with the assessment you state above it sounds like you do. Come on now, the system that Weeden played in contribute to his gaudy numbers. Not to mention he was throwing to the best wr/playmaker in the country. I didnt see what you saw with Weeden this year. I saw a QB that had a gunslinger mentality and barely got away with it in the college game. If he tries to pass the way he did in college, in the NFL he won’t last too long. Was not impressed with composure at all, looks like a career backup to me.
I am not that opened minded
I would draft a guy like Weeden, but not as my day 1 starter, i can see him in a backup role, cause if i was Shanny i would not bring back either Beck or Grossman. And i just dont see there being a next year if you dont get this QB situation on the right track and they dont have the luxury of taking a Chris Weinke project. But i do like what i have seen from Weeden but he may have reached his peak as a QB while other younger prospect will grow into their prime.
I think the Weeden=Weinke reference is the same as
Griffin=Vick…
It’s too fixated on the one thing (age/speed), and it’s not looking at the package for what it is. Weinke’s age is obviosly a concern when looking for a franchise quarterback, but even if he starts the 2012 season at 29, he will play out his rookie contract and have an opportunity to get resigned and play that contract out as well. Everyone wants that franchise guy this year, and I’m one them, but more importantly, we need to upgrade at every position. If we can’t get Luck or Griffin this year, which one of these guys is an upgrade over Rex? If there isn’t one, go to free agency and look again next year for the franchise guy (Bray is by far my favorite in college)
IMO
just about anyone(free agent or rookie – RG3, Luck, Weeden, Foles, Maybe even Tannehill) would be an upgrade over Rex.
Rex should be a backup, and nothing more.
Crying Lion
That's why he was brought here in the first place....
as a backup. It’s too bad McNabb didn’t work out, but Rex was brought in to help teach DMac the system, and to have a backup QB with a headset calling in the plays. Rex was put into a tough spot he was never supposed to be in. I’m happy with resigning him if we draft a young guy. It pays to have experience on the bench, regardless of how many turnovers he had this year haha
well it's the best he could do on such a short leash...
the lockout ruined any chance of a free agent to come in and learn the system and get chemistry with any of our receivers.
Just not wild on Weeden
This old rookie experiment has rarely worked in the past. Most of the BYU QBs (example John Beck) flame out, and the service acadamy guys who finish their commitment and then enter the draft rarely make it. Staubach is the last one I can think of, but he played semi-pro football all the way through his Navy career.
Weeden is just too old
He would be a 29 year old rookie. Its easier to dominate against your competition in college when your about 7 years older then anyone on the field. I would rather take my chances on a guy like Kellen Moore.
I am guessing
that you have heard of some new technology for his legs that’s going to allow for him to be tall enough to see over the defenses that he is going to be playing against in the nfl
by vjessejamesv on Jan 15, 2012 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
this is where some obscure reference to Doug Flutie will be posted...
if one person can accomplish something, everyone can!
SYKE
Why not just get a verteran like kyle orton or Matt Flynn
At least then you getting a someone with actual NFL experience. Someone who you know can really be a starter in the NFL. Plus Matt Flynn is younger than Brandon Weeden! And Kyle orton is only 29.
by JeanBaptiste on Jan 16, 2012 2:36 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Where is all this experience you see from Matt Flynn?
He’s been in the league 4 years, and started 2 games. You call that experience?
Crying Lion
Yes I do. because he has been learning from one of the NFL's best quarterbacks
and when he’s gotten the chance to play he’s looked great. Also he has lot more NFL experience then Weeden does.
by JeanBaptiste on Jan 16, 2012 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
Learning and game experience are too diferent things
I can go to law school to become a ligitator, but until I get up in front of a courtroom, and attempt to sway a jury, my experience in the classroom means shit.
Crying Lion
but he's actually got game experience
and in those two games he’s looked better than any quarterback than we have had in the past decade.
by JeanBaptiste on Jan 17, 2012 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
I think you had
your contributor nomination revoked whe you uttered the word Flynn
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Dead on Tiller
Age. I am of this thinking…if age is the only concern I don’t see where we don’t at least consider him as a prospect. I could see this more of a possibility for a team with a solid starter, older backup ala Pittsburgh with Ben’s injury history or Dallas since Kitna just retired.
by Bryan Black on Jan 15, 2012 12:16 PM EST via Android app reply actions
I think we have to target RGIII
No matter what. we desperately need a franchise quarterback. I am not open minded about this at all. RGIII is the only answer to our QB situation.
not the only answer there is always Andrew Luck
to me those are the 2 best solutions to the QB problem, but if that does not happen you do have to move forward, maybe sign a guy like Kyle Orton, Dennis Dixion, Alex Smith, Josh Johnson, Vince Young, Chad Henne, or Brady Quinn, and draft a rookie in like the 4th round like Kirk Cousins, Case Keenum, Brandon Weeden, or Ryan Lindley
by Highspeed30 on Jan 15, 2012 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
Orton? He is known not to be a leader in the locker room.
Alex Smith isn’t going anywhere.
Henne? Didn’t we take a Dolphin castoff who couldn’t cut it….Beck?
No one else you mention of worth arguing.
Kellen Moore? You drop to the 6th or 7th best QB. WOW!
Redskins @RGIII - 2012
by Copious 1 on Jan 15, 2012 4:21 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
Strike the Kellen Moore comment and apply it to Case Keenum.
Redskins @RGIII - 2012
by Copious 1 on Jan 15, 2012 4:22 PM EST via Android app up reply actions
I'd expect Henne to go to NYJ with Sparano
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I think Shanahan would get fired if he signed any of those guys as our #1 QB
Skins fans deserve better. There are at least 8 top or very promising QBs out there (Luck, RG3, Manning, Bradford, Flynn, Tannehill, Foles, Weeden and maybe a few others), and only 6 or 7 teams out there that badly need one, and only a couple of those teams pick ahead of us in the draft. There is just no excuse for not getting a very good QB. I don’t presume to tell Shanahan which one is best, but he’d better get somebody.
Well, no argument, but if he was healthy and his contract was at all
reasonable – wouldn’t he be worth a look? He should have 3-4 years left, at least. And he’s not like McNabb. Peyton is a workaholic. Another poster mentioned that Manning audibles a lot, and Shanahan wouldn’t like that. But my guess is that Shanahan would adapt his system to Peyton and let him do his thing (otherwise, he wouldn’t sign him). So we’d have an awesome quarterback for the next few years.
Also, we could use our draft picks on other positions (although I’d still suggest getting Tannehill, Weeden or Foles in the second or third round if they were still around – we could afford to be cool, see what happens).
I've been thinking about Weedon for a while.
You’ve got to think that while a normal 22 year old Rookie QB has a shelf life around maybe 35, Weedon has an extended time because he hasn’t been getting hit by NFL linebackers for seven years. He’s played baseball and some time in the Big 12.
Weedon could be phenomenal. If we get him a big WR target, he could put up great numbers. Six years? Try ten.
by Andrew DeFrank on Jan 15, 2012 12:22 PM EST reply actions
I don't like Weeden.
He sounds like a hick in his interviews. He’s old. He used to play baseball, baseball players are country douches.
No thanks.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 15, 2012 12:23 PM EST via mobile reply actions
what do you have against country people?
by vjessejamesv on Jan 15, 2012 12:27 PM EST up reply actions
They're Baptists and Republicans.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 15, 2012 12:30 PM EST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
hey man! I'm country....but not a Baptist and I'm a Libertarian
but my drawl comes out sometimes haha
"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson
by irishgoon on Jan 15, 2012 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I have nothing against country people...
Just country music.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 15, 2012 1:23 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that makes two of us
"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson
waylon jennings
is the man
"Women should have three breasts - two in front and one in the back for dancing." -Al Bundy
When I say I don't like country music...
I mean that I don’t like 98% of country music by artists who got their start after 1980. Cash, Hank Williams (Senior), Willie, Waylon, John Prine, etc. do not fall under this distinction (along with very few newer artists, most of whom are not really mainstream country artists anyway).
“What they call country today… is basically a bad rock band with a fiddle” -Tom Petty
"Dominant" is an adjective.
"Dominate" is a verb.
We'll work on "Dominance" once we get the first two figured out.
This is funny
Since i’m neither of these Defending them for fun seems appropriate. Baptism is defined as a purification process or to purify, which seems like good things, like begging for forgiveness and trying to live clean or “pure”. Now the opposite of purify or the antonym of purification would be adulteration, corruption, dirtying, and pollution, not to preach but come on.
Republicans are as American as apple pie or Lincoln, so since we all know they all or we all make mistakes, some of us more than others; I’ve read some of your post’s, we should think a bit deeper before spreading mud..
He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.
Hey everybody, it's the Fun Gestapo.
I see it as more cushion for the pushin'
by iH8dallas on Jan 15, 2012 2:09 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Everybody must love a good Jester
I hope we know a Gestapo isn’t as American as apple pie.
He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.
cmon man everyone who knows H8 knows he kids around 99.98% of the time
lets not do politics and BS here, let us enjoy this great game
"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson
My fault
I guess I get carried away using seemingly liked tactics, only to get made fun of. I only try and give well thought out advise to the Redskin community. I’ve been a fan for 30 years. I apologize h8, I enjoy reading most of your post’s at least the ones i’ve read, . So thanks for the good reading all of you, pros and joes.
He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.
ih8 - Hick, old, baseball - all great ways to rate a quarterback
Or are you kidding?
Thoughts on Weeden
Interesting post Tiller. I think this route you just proposed is one of the scenarios the skins looks at if they decide either they need a mature QB but aren’t in love with Flynn/other free agent QB’s OR feel they can’t move up to get Luck/RG3. Essentially this is the I don’t want to overpay the current FA crop of QB’s and I don’t want to pay the asking price for Luck/RG3. This option allows the skins to trade back, continue building the team and draft a player who they feel is a better option than Rex/Beck with little risk. I think Shanny really gives this scenario a look if during the Senior bowl week he sees immediate starting potential out of Weeden. This approach also allows us to still take a top QB next year if we fall in love with one of the QB’s next year and want to mortgage the future to get them as Weeden could always move into a backup role (which we do not have on this team either). Having said all that, this is only an option if the skins want a mature QB and do not want to risk a lower 1st/high 2nd on a second tier young QB this year and/or don’t way to pay the price for Luck/RG3. Lot’s to think about for Allen and Shanny this year.
This is what I like too about Weeden
If he fails, he can back up,,and we can try a stud next year
Crying Lion
well after shanny putting his rep on the line with rex and beck
i think anything can happen. to drafting a 29 year old rookie to trading the farm for luck.
im gonna say ill take anything other then rex or beck!
I will stop watching the skins if Rex/Beck is our Starting QB this year!
In my humble opinion, the Skins have to do one of the three options below (not in my preferred order).
1) Sign a Free Agent QB to replace Rex as starter
2) Trade up to get Luck/RG3
3) Draft a QB in either 1st/2nd/3rd round.
They have to get another QB this year and I do not believe trading for a veteran is an option for them.
by 1footballguru on Jan 15, 2012 1:05 PM EST up reply actions
ah the mantra of Fedex Field
"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson
Just to clarify my #3 option above
This would be a trade back scenario with our first pick.
This is not a bad plan
I noticed that Weedens numbers were very similar to Aaron Rodgers, age, 2011 regular season stats, you know meaningless stuff Weeden being 6’4" Rodgers 6’2". I was thinking if Weeden hit his ceiling and i’m sure he didn’t It seems pretty high up there already. He also beat Luck and Rgiii head to head if that means anything.
He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot, will be victorious.
Its a simple value pick
If we pick him in the 2nd or 3rd round then I could care less about his age, especially if we are able to trade back. Agree as well with your assessment that he may have little upside, but he also has little downside too.
If you are going to draft Weeden why not go get Matt Flynn.
I don’t understand other than the money Flynn would demand but I’ve seen nothing from Weeden that has shown he is the most nfl ready behind Luck. With 13 ints in college football this past year is pretty huge downside to his decision making.
I think Ive already dispelled your INT comment
lets go into the “not the most NFL ready behind Luck” thinking.
Weeden is easily the most NFL ready prospect. Although he operated mostly in a spread, he’s fine from under center. He runs a very complex offense under Mike Gundy. This offense requires multiple pre, and post snap reads. You’ll notice that he averages over 8.5 yards per attempt, so his passes are not all dink and dunk. He has the ability to make all the NFL throws with ease. He tends to be a bit of a gunslinger, but I don’t mind that as much. He improved his footwork in the pocket, and delivery greatly from 2010 to 2011, so this tells me he is still very coachable, and willing to adapt. Every aspect of his game got better from 2010 to 2011(Yards, TD’s, lower INT’s, lower attempt to INT ratio, sacks, and team performance(they finished with one loss, and are 3rd in the nation in the final poll).
Tell me why you think he not the 2nd most NFL ready QB?
Crying Lion
What about drafting 2 QBs?
So we all agree that we can’t go into next season with Grossman, Beck, and 3rd string QB. So what if…
1. We trade back from 6 to pick up a 2nd or 3rd rounder
2. WIth our first pick in the 2nd round we draft foles
3. With our next pick (2nd from #1, or early 3rd) we draft Weeden
4. Resign Rex – I know it is scary, but he serves to push the rookies…and given the NFL’s new rules on the use of 3rd string (formerly emergency) quarterbacks, he provides a safety blanket that can go inactive the moment our 2 rookies out play him.
… cumulatively we are only using 1 assigned pick on QB
… The rookies will push each other to work harder a study more
… Weeden looks to be ready to play, Foles looks to have the highest ceiling of any QB not named Luck or RGIII
… If they both turn out to be worthwhile, we can flip one for a late round pick just before their rookie deal ends (ala Philly)
… If neither one is worthwhile, we can target one of the big boys next year (and whoever succeeds Shanahan will have 3 young QB’s to pick from)
Thoughts?
A good way to minimize risk if we do plan on drafting weeden is...
To draft Blackmon with our 1st pick of coarse!! Yes blackmon will help any QB of whatever team drafts him but if we plan on maximizing weedens “window” of highest caliber of play then give that man his safty blanket. Then draft an OT,OG, and C to protect his ass and he’ll have a chance!!
I don't see anyway Blackmon makes it past the Rams and Minny
If he does, he isn’t gettingpast Cleveland(who may have a worse WR corp than we do)
Crying Lion
I don't get it…
…Why is everybody concerned about his age?
It is weird that many people advocate bringing in someone like Peyton Manning, Jay Cutler, etc. etc. but that drafting a quarterback who is 29 is out of the question-that crap just doesn’t make any sense.
There is no reason to believe that you could not get 10 years out of Weedon
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
I'd honestly be happy with 6 years of good play
It buys this regime some time to attempt to right the ship. maybe even draft another QB within the next two years.
Crying Lion
Agreed
Either he serves as our starter for a while, or he gets supplanted by another incoming QB and becomes a valuable backup. Either way, it’s a hell of a lot better than what we are looking at currently.
If he helps us reach the playoffs even one season, he was worth the pick. His age should be an afterthought at this point.
Yes, STL may go RG3, trading Bradford
but that still leaves Minnesota. and I don’t know what they might do.
Why in gods name would you do this if your St Louis?
It makes no sense. Bradford was a better pro prospect coming out of Oklahoma, that RG3 is right now. Bradord has every attibute you look for in a QB. He needs help around him.
Drafting RG3 is not going to solve the mess that exists in St Louis. If they want more picks to fill the many holes they have, they can easily trade back with a team like us. Bradford is not their problem.
And, if they are stupid enough to try and trade Bradford, I’d take him off their hands any day of the week.
Crying Lion
It wasn't my idea - I read a long article on Yahoo
about that possibility. New coach, might prefer RG3 over Bradford. Trade Bradford for almost as much as trading the pick. Makes sense if they have cooled slightly on Sam. Your comment suggests Sam is still highly respected. That’s why I said (in another post) that we could, conceivably, end up with Bradford – which would be fine with me. But that is just one possibility, not a prediction. A lot can happen before the draft.
I would be more than happy with Bradford...
Especially if we added Bowe, Meyers and Grubbs
"Honey Badger Don't Care"
Unleash the 'Wallet Weapon'
Danny’s big bucks. Buy what we need. I don’t mean old and wornout guys but some of the 27 ish age free agents. Then address the draft. Is Flynn that good? I personally have no idea but I’m not being paid mega millions to make that kind of decision. Shanahan and his friends/spies throughout the years should be able to tell him.
As far as Weeden goes, he sounds to be me like a very good gamble, no matter what the Wallet Weapon does.
I'm not the Devil's Advocate but I consiider him a close friend
I'm with Dipper - let the heavy thinkers figure out the QB situation
But my instinct is to do whatever it takes to get the guy they want. Don’t be timid or cheap – that’s for losers.
A well thought out, considered post.
I hope the front office are thinking about Weeden as an option, particularly if it involves trading back to accumulate more picks.
StephenBeagrie on Twitter and Facebook.
www.culturebully.com
www.stevebeagrie.com
by Stephen Beagrie on Jan 18, 2012 8:06 AM EST reply actions
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