Stats vs Fiction: A Look at Evan Royster's Debut
Before I get into the post, I wanted to introduce you to a weekly article I'll be writing for Hogs Haven called 'Stats vs Fiction' (at least until I come up with a better name). In short it is a bit of a catchall column, where I can look at various stats as how they relate the the Redskins on both a player and team level. From time to time, I'll look at how a player or unit might match-up against our upcoming opponents opposite unit (i.e. our run defense vs the Giants rushing attack).
Now you might ask why this feature is titled 'Stats vs Fiction'? It is to remind us, that while stats (particularly the ones we know the most) are valuable tools, they don't tell us the whole picture. For instance some stats can make us think that a player is highly productive when it is not really the case. Take Donovan McNabb's passing stats last season. Had he played all 16 games McNabb was on pace for over 4,100 yards, good for 5th best in the league. He was also among the league leaders in passes over 20 and 40 yards, which led to a good yards per attempt number. Unfortunately that only told part of the story as his completion percentage ranked 25th out of 31 qualified quarterbacks. McNabb also scored low in two other important areas, as his 1st down percentage was 23rd and his quarterback rating was 24th. In the end those stats are the ones that revealed the true McNabb, who was unable to be an effective passer for the Redskins. His big play ability padded his stats, but his inability to complete short and intermediate throws when the game was still winnable, severely hurt the team.
Conversely basic stats can also paint a productive player as just an average guy, instead of showing him in his true light. A great example of this is free agent acquisition Stephen Bowen. Many Redskins fans questioned bringing in a guy who had just a sack and a half last year, and just 5.5 for his career. What the don't see are the scores of pressures and hits that he has racked up, that actually makes him among the top pass rushing 3-4 defensive ends in the game.
My goal is to look beyond the box score and paint a clearer picture using both more in depth stats, and context. First up on the list is taking a look at rookie running back, Evan Royster's debut.
Royster was a 6th round pick this past April, and one that left many fans and observers scratching their heads. The Redskins already had Ryan Torain and Keiland Williams returning, and added Roy Helu two rounds earlier. While the team ended up moving Williams to FB, Royster's road didn't get much easier when Tim Hightower was added via trade. Royster was also considered somewhat of an afterthought, given that he doesn't have a big upside or game-breaking speed. Royster is a capable receiver out of the backfield and is at least solid (for a rookie) in terms of pass protection. He's also a tough, smart runner, who can be productive between the tackles. He can find the hole can take some contact before going down. On the downside he has zero home run hitting ability, and will struggle when asked to run outside. Royster does fit a zone blocking scheme though, given his vision and cutback ability.
The expectations were low heading into the first preseason game, as Royster was listed as the third back, behind Hightower and Helu. Despite that it was Royster and not Helu, who was the running back that spelled Tim Hightower in the first half, and it was Royster who led the team in carries. He finished the game with 15 carries for 66 yards, including a long of 15. His 4.4 yards per carry average matched Hightower's and was above Helu's 3.5.
Let's take a deeper look at Royster's carries. Of his 15 attempts, an impressive 13 of them went for positive yardage. And his two that didn't go for positive yardage, were both no gain carries. That means 87% of Royster's carries moved the Redskins forward down the field (Hightower by comparison only gained positive yardage on 60% of his attempts). While that number isn't sustainable, it is telling that Royster led the team in this area.
Another thing to look at is taking away a player's lowest and highest rushing total (the outliers), and look at his yard per carry average. For Royster that means taking away his 15 yarder, and one of his no gain rush attempts. Which leaves Royster with 51 yards on 13 carries, for a 3.92 ypc average. While that doesn't seem to impressive, look at how that compares to Hightower, when you take away his 16 yard run, and his -3 yard run, he has eight attempts and 31 yards, for a 3.87 ypc average. Now there really isn't a huge difference between the two numbers for Royster and Hightower, but it does disprove a prevailing thought among some, that Royster's 4.4 average was inflated by a fluke 15 yard run.
Now while I used Hightower as my comparision, I'm not arguing here that Royster is better than Hightower. What I am arguing is that Royster did show that he is a legit running back in this league. He displayed the ability to consistently pick up chunks of yardage and to potentially be an effective backup running back. Royster might lack the big play ability of Hightower and Helu, but he was impressive last week nonetheless. Now it is important to remember that it was just week 1 of the preseason, and 15 carries is not even close to a big enough sample size to make an accurate prediction, but until more data comes in, it was a noteworthy performance and one that firmly puts him in the running for a 53 man roster spot, and a contributing role this season.
Steve Shoup has been a Redskins fan his entire life and dreams of the day they get back to the glory days of his youth. In addition to his regular piece on Hogs Haven, you can find his daily writings at Fanspeak.com.
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Nice article
I always hate the fact that so many are quick to make judgments on the basic stats without looking into it more (or even watching someone play in some cases).
Looking forward to reading more of these.
Thanks! I appreciate the compliment
I agree completely that is why i wanted to write something like this
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions
good write up
stats can be misleading and don’t take into account certain things that just cannot measured.
by rainmanc345 on Aug 17, 2011 12:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thanks!
agreed, that is why i like looking at context and more advanced stats (or at least looking at multiple stats)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Logical, analytical, and grammatically correct writing speaks volumes. Keep it up.
by TheSportsManager on Aug 17, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Thanks! I appreciate it
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
This article is ridiculous...
I take the Rex Grossman performance as an example…
Grossman’s first half was pretty good, so good that he is on pace to throw for 6624 yards, and 32 touchdowns with 0 interceptions during the regular season. I for one, belieive that this is exactly how the season is going to go. Stats don’t lie……..
Grossman
It’s official I’ve already won my fantasy football leauge! I got the first overall pick and went with Fumblesaurus Rex. Thank you ptwony for enlightening myself with your great wisdom and knowledge of stats. I shall award you zero points and we all are now dumber having read your comments… May God have mercy on your soul.
by Wilmncskinsfan on Aug 17, 2011 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions
This may change, but for some reason I just wasn't impressed with Royster.
I think it may be more preconceived notions at this point and hopefully he’ll win me over Friday.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I think he be a solid player for them
I still think Helu is the better long term option as a starter, and obviously the home run guy. But Royster looks to be the type, that each series, he continuously gets positive yardage. And is a great fill in back, b/c of his ability to catch the ball and block relative his experience.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Royster type backs are always very underrated because generally they make for quite dull watching
but he could potentially be a very solid part of the rushing attack because like you say he generally gets positive yardage. Coaches like a guy that will just pick up 3-4 yds a go rather than a guy who is going to get 8-10 then -3.
It takes a lot of pressure off the QB which will be a big help with the current situation.
I think that's a very fair analysis.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on Aug 17, 2011 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
that is a huge value to churn out a couple yards even when a play breaks down. That way even when your starter is getting a couple plays off, you are moving the ball forward.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
He seems to be the type of runner
who will get you the yardage that is blocked and maybe a yard or two more on the way down.
Looks like a good series.
Cheers. What’s the over/under for how long before the Miami media blitz hits Hankerson?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Aug 17, 2011 12:22 PM EDT reply actions
Thanks
I don’t know it will be interesting to see how far this story spreads, but if anything the blame should go on the NCAA, if it is as widespread as it seems. No way they had no idea, they need to get serious about prevention and not just punishment after the fact, while turning a blind eye, until some newspaper reporter publishes a story.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Huge Cane fan here and I have a feeling this situation will blow away what happened back in the late 80’s/ early 90’s unfortunately.. And the real problem are all these rich boosters who get into these kids heads with money talk. As soon as all these poor kids here talk about money and gifts, it’s over, and I don’t blame them..cause I would do the same thing!!
Ha, considering their AD was head of the committee responsible for infractions
I want to see them roasted
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Aug 17, 2011 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Good article dude
I enjoyed reading it. Something to mull over as i stare blankly at my cubical wall.
This sort of perked up my interested in the guy. i hadn’t really been paying attention to him much.
The Beat Box aka skins secondary.
Thanks!
yeah this RB battle will be interesting to watch, I was very pleasantly surprised with Royster and look forward to seeing how he continues to progress.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
You contradict yourself a bit here.....
What I am arguing is that Royster did show that he is a legit running back in this league.
So you say he’s a LEGIT RB in the NFL………………..but
Now it is important to remember that it was just week 1 of the preseason, and 15 carries is not even close to a big enough sample size to make an accurate prediction,
You also say that 15 carries is not even close to a big enough sample size to judge him…………………yet
it was a noteworthy performance and one that firmly puts him in the running for a 53 man roster spot, and a contributing role this season.
You say this performance FIRMLY puts him on the 53 man roster
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
How is this contradictory at all?
He was just saying he has the potential to be an effective runner in the league, but at this point everything needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on Aug 17, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
It makes perfect sense if you read the paragraph in my opinion...
and not mangled up, censored excerpts.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on Aug 17, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
i read it the same way
it comes off as stating that he is a Legit RB in this league, and then immediately throws cold water on the flames you were starting to grow with that first statement
Hail to 'Em
by SkinsaneAsylum on Aug 17, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough...
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
i can understand how it is quick to infer too much from the statement, but i guess it depends on how you define 'legit' a
again i said ‘legit runningback’ which puts him in the top 200 (give or take a few) RB’s in camps around the league right now. I didn’t define him any more than that. And the 2nd part is to show why my statement was purposely vague.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
nope....a legit hb
is one battling to start
by back_to_the_future on Aug 17, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
according to whom? legitimate is really defined as
in accordance with established rules, principles, or standards.
meaning he is a legitimate running back, not as a starter. This isn’t MCHammer definitions
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I didn't read the word POTENTIAL in the above 3 statements
I read “Legit RB in this League”, “not even close enough to a big enough sampls size to make an ACCURATE prediction”, and “FIRMLY puts him on the 53 man roster”
Am I missing something besides a “kronk lock”?
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
yes but you aren't reading the context
as I said ‘legit running back’ is a vague statement that applies just as well to a 1st stringer as a 3rd stringer. I didn’t say ‘legit star’, legit starter’ or even ‘legit 2nd stringer’
I thought it important to admit the issue with the small sample size, but also say that in the vacuum of what we have to work with (i.e. 1 game and 15 carries) it was an important performance.
Again you are forgetting the whole “in the running” part of my “firmly statement”
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions
ok,
I give you the “in the running” part. I still don’t think those sentences meshed well.
Lets hope, for the sake of this team, that Royster can beat out an oft injured Torain, for the final RB roster spot.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
again the entire point of the paragraph is to show that you can't say with a certainty
but the leaning opinion, or prevailing one should hopefully be that Royster is a good find.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Where did he say this?
"FIRMLY puts him on the 53 man roster"
I mean you truly didn’t grasp the whole thesis of the article?
I think your on a witch hunt with this one…
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on Aug 17, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Actually that last part
Firmly puts him IN the running.
So he has a legit chance to make the roster and contribute but it’s not 100%.
The Beat Box aka skins secondary.
OK
Even more of a contradiction, considering the first statement read " Legit RB in this league".
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
how so?
Ryan Torain was cut last year, and yet by the end of the year was a ‘legit running back’
talent and roster spot are two different issues. What if they decide to keep extra WR’s or an extra Defensive guy.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
talent and roster spot are two different issues
This says it all. Torain was pretty much all we had after Portis went down. I would by no means call Torain a legit NFL RB. What has he done in his career to prove he is legit? I tell you this for sure, legit NFL RB’s don’t wind up missing more games in their career than they play in.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
i'm not arguing that
obviously the injury issue is the reason why Torain isn’t an effective back worthy of roster spots, but the point is he was a better option than Larry Johnson.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I would go so far as to say
that Ryan Torain brings absolutely nothing to the table as an NFL RB besides a bit of power…….thats it.
Anyways, the discussion is about Royster, not Torain, so back to the task at hand
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
????
a bit of power? did you see him play at all
by tommy gunn on Aug 17, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, come on
get off the dudes jock. NFL RB’s are supposed to do that. Thats why they are paid all that money, and have such a short average career length. Don’t blow the guy for doing his job. He has little abilities other than power running, and IMO, he’s not all that great there either.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
get off his jock??? watch your mouth man… didnt hear you telling anyone else that likes Torain to do the same…
little abilities my azz… the only issue w/ him is his health… period
stop trying to make him out to be a bum…. why all the Torain hate??
did he sleep w/ your wife??
It's a blog
don’t tell people to watch their mouths. I didn’t say anything personal about YOU. I made a blanket statement, and a reference to you “liking” and “defending” this guy.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Do I really need to explain what "get off of his jock" means?
I would hope your skin is a little thicker than that. If that truely insults you, then I’m sorry.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Yea how can you designate what 3rd Torain is in if you can't even do it with your own age?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
MOST NFL RB's
have a variety of weapons. They have speed and power, they have power, and are great blockers, …………………you get my jist. Torain has 1 attribute as an NFL back, and thats his power, but I am not going to say that he’s one of the most powerful back in the league, because he’s not. He does one thing well, and not great. To me, that puts him way below the curve of the average NFL starter(or even back-up).
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
not even a back-up??? comn… comnnnnnnnnnnnnn. he is a very good back-up if he remains healthy…. he may not have been a Portis when it came to pass pro but i dont recall him being complete garbage…
Your own medicine
This little wrangle of yours is making me laugh. Frankly, I don’t care either way. I think Torain proved himself a viable starter last year when healthy, vut that doesn’t matter cuz he can’t stay healthy. And now none of it matters, because I think Hightower is the better back.
Now, that said, I’m gonna get nitpicky on you. First you say Torain isn’t a legit RB. Well, when Steve-O said that about Rooster, you implied a legit RB is one who can play in the NFL. (Sorry, I’m not gonna get into block quotes from the iPad). But then you go on to say that “NFL backs are supposed to do that”.
Looks like a bitofa contradiction to me….
by CJHutch on Aug 17, 2011 5:34 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
exactly I used an example, one of many that are out there
that shows that talent and roster spots are two different things. So me saying Legit back and in the running for a roster spot aren’t contradictory.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Last thing I'll say about this:
When I hear “legit RB in this league”, I take it to mean a guy who can play, and contribute from day one, not a guy who may be a training camp cut, or PS guy.
Potential is a great word to use.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
i understand
but potential has a ton of ambiguity as well. If I said Royster showed a lot of potential, that could mean a number of things.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
It sounds a hell of a lot better
than saying he is a legit NFL RB. That, by far, has a lot more ambiguity than potential(at least at this point).
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
maybe, but since i didn't define any further than 'legit running back'
I don’t really see the problem. There are plenty of ‘legit NFL’s who are cut, due to injury, bad fit, team disputes, or just b/c a team makes a bad decision. I think Royster showed that he can play in this league. This wasn’t the second coming of Marcus Mason.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Damn
You did it again!
I think Royster showed that he can play in this league
It was one game!. I will choose to give you a hard time about this one, as some did the same to me when I praised Mallet in the Pats/Jags game.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
again i'm not saying it means that he is a star or anything along those lines
saying he can play in this league applies to about 2,000 players
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You're arguing semantics at this point.
No one is arguing that Torain is a star, but he is a legitimate option in running back rotation in this league. The guy did average 74 yards per game last year behind a shitty line.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on Aug 17, 2011 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
How in the hell
is a guy who’s always injured a " legitimate option in running back rotation in this league".
I just don’t get this. You also said he’s glass man. Do you want one of your RB’s to be broken down all the team? This takes away from other potential young guys who can may be able to actually stay healthy.
You can have him…………….I’m done with this dude.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
I think the point is Torain has a little talent and is cheap
he’s not washed up and expensive like say L. Johnson or Parker, or any of the other washed up vets that constantly get recycled. Now even when healthy Torain isn’t great, but he’s not bad either. Given enough carries he’s a 1,000-1,200 yard guy. The issue is he will never get enough.
Given age/price/and ability though he’s not a bad backup option (which would hopefully keep him healthier)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
How can you say this:
Given enough carries he’s a 1,000-1,200 yard guy.
I’m so sick of everyone saying “IF” he had been healthy, or “did you see when”………………..dude hasn’t produced yet in his career, and has been cut twice. Where is this 1000+ yard rusher that everyone sees? You must stay healthy in this league to be a good, effective back, year after year. Torain has yet to do this, and he’s yet to rush for 1000+ yards……………………and I doubt he ever will.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
i don't know what you are arguing
I agree that the injuries are the problem, but it is the same with Ladell Betts. Betts was constantly injured but had a lot of potential. The one year where Portis was injured and Betts acutally wasn’t he got 1,100 yards. Same thing here. It probably won’t happen but if Torain got the carries, he’d be a solid but not good starting runningback. The injuries prevent that from happening.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I'm not directing this all at you
there have been a lot of people on HH who feel the same way, and say the same things. I just don’e see who it can be viewed as so difinitive.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Torain had more rushing yardage last season than Hightower's all time best which also was last season.
Would you call Hightower a legit NFL RB? If not the Skins in your opinion do not have a legit NFL RB.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 17, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
When healthy...
Ryan Torain is a legitimate RB in the NFL.
Shanahan will give Torain a chance to prove himself again in 2011. He is too much like the Texans top
runner and will be more effective if the OL keeps their pace going this season as well.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 17, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
"will be" a legit RB in this league
would have been more accurate…or even “might be”
Hail to 'Em
by SkinsaneAsylum on Aug 17, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions
he showed he can run in this league, simple as that, he ran hard and consistently picked up yards
I don’t think you need to get more on the fence than that. I mean you can say ‘might be’ about anything.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
what about
per se ? Can we use per se ? I always like saying per se.
by CJHutch on Aug 17, 2011 5:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
rousted will make this team
The kid has a natural instinct you cannot teach for getting yards. forget the measurable, he can play at a high level.
by rainmanc345 on Aug 17, 2011 12:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
agreed he is a gamer and that showed last friday speed on a track and football field can be two separate things
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I was purposely vague, because of the sample size
When i said legit RB, i meant that exactly he’s legit, not some camp fodder or automatic practice squad guy i.e. Draughn. He can play, but I wasn’t going to go so far to add ‘starter’ or ‘number 2 back’ after legit. because it is just one week and 15 carries.
As I said it was a noteworthy performance for that sample. Right now I can only evaluate 15 carries and of those he was our most consistent and productive running back., which makes it noteworthy considering the caveat of just a few carries.
Also I didn’t say his performance “Firmly puts him on the 53” I said it “firmly puts him in the running” which is a huge difference, as well as a bad pun.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
Tiller56 hits the nail on the head
Bad stats are worse than no stats. You have wayyy to few samples to go on to say anything whatsoever statistically about Royster’s running ability. I like the idea of your article, but you need to actually understand what your talking about.
did you read article?
I admit that it is a small sample size and acknowledge the inaccuracy of any major prediction. All I said was he proved some doubters wrong and has a real shot of making the team.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I did see the caveats
but a lot of knowing statistics is knowing when not to apply any. Right now your subjective opinion on Royster is far more valid than any thing quantitative, because there just isnt data.
exactly, part of the idea of the article...giving context to stats
the article is weak on sample size, but the point is to continue to watch these trends. And not just look at total yards or YPC, but things like positive carries vs negative carries, eliminating outliers etc. Right now we only have 15 attempts, but we only have 10 for hightower and people are anointing him to be a star.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
We seen some of Hightower's abilities
in actual football games. We haven’t seen this in Royster yet.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
yes but Hightower's first year he had what a 2.5 ypc?
that is kinda the point you need to look deeper at the stats. I didn’t anoint Royster anything that isn’t obvious. He was drafted b/c of what he brought to the table and he proved that last fri. (i.e. legit back)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Read it again.....
one that firmly puts him in the running for a 53 man roster spot
Although worded a little off…he clearly says firmly puts him in the running….not firmly puts him on the 53 man roster. He, IMO, is basically saying he isn’t just here as roster fluff like James Davis was!
I am ready for some Redskins mother f&%$ing football!!!!
What if we end up keeping 3 RB's and 2 FB's
with KW being one of the two FB’s(as he can also play RB, and be a 3rd down back). Unless the staff cuts Torain, in this situation, I see Royster as the odd man out, With Hightower, Helu and Torain being the three kept.
I hope I’m wrong on this, as I’m not a fan or Torain at all, but if he remains healthy, he may force Royster to the PS.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
With Torain being made of glass is that realistic at all? I don't think so...
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on Aug 17, 2011 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, but now we probably have better options.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
Torain was... adequate... last year!
I see Hightower as the every run RB… workhorse type.
I see Helu as the “big play” guy… used once in a while… surprises with big runs.
I see Royster as “the guy who moves the ball forward”… not flashy… but gets it done!
I just don’t see Torain’s role. He can go to PS or PUP, and come in if there is an injury (and there will be).
a healthy Torain gives you what your expecting from Helu and Royster in one back..
seven 20+ yard runs in 10 games… and he averaged 4.5 a carry..
keyword being "healthy"
That’s why I asked if Torain could be placed in the Injured Players list.
Any RB we put in the PS… will be poached. I don’t want Helu or Royster to end up in another team!
Torain
is not a “big play guy.” He doesn’t have the speed for that. How many rushes over 20 yards did he have last season?
by TheDeepBall on Aug 17, 2011 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I hope Torain is out
It does however seem like Shanny has a boner for Torain
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Based on what? A lot of people are saying this about Shanny and Torain.
But in my eyes all Shanny did was bring in a guy that knew the system and he was familiar with and that guy wildly outperformed his expectations. Where has Shanny showed preferential treatment for Torain? And if he did then why bring in Hightower, Helu, Royster, and others?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on Aug 17, 2011 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
also Shanny cut Torain at the beginning of last year so he could keep 6 WR’s and L. Johnson ahead of him.
Shanny likes him, but he doesn’t love Torain. That is why he refused to guarantee him a starting job for this season even after he had that huge Tampa game.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions
no but his statements were even less support than he gives everyone else.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
stats aren't the issue Injuries are
and that is why Shanny said what he said. He didn’t want to go down the same road as last year, where Torain was supposed to come back so we didn’t sign anyone only to not be able to go, leaving us with either K. Williams or Williams and James Davis.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
The Teams' priorities at WR are making the 3 RB slots tight. The team should keep 7 WR until all options
are out. The recent OLB and CB moves indicate that the Skins are not satisfied with their defensive depth. Their TE moves do not make a lot of sense. The K pickup will give Gano some competition.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 17, 2011 10:56 PM EDT up reply actions
that is going to be the big question
But the big “IF” is Torain’s health. Nothing is guaranteed, but I think Royster is on is way to getting a roster spot.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the only way Sellers remains on this team
is if Cooley goes on IR…..which is unlikely
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
i think he is out barring a serious injury (i.e. Cooley going on IR or a FB getting injured)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I would rather keep Royster than Keiland.
Here are the roles:
Keiland provides a backup FB and a backup 3DRB. As a fullback, his size leaves me doubtful as to his value as a lead blocker. However, he’s decent in pass pro, with pretty good hands.
Royster wouldn’t provide the FB depth of KW, but I think he’s a better 3rd down back. I’d probably put his pass blocking and hands on par with KW, but I think he’s a better runner, with more potential after the catch or on a draw play.
To me, Keiland’s only advantage is his ability as a backup FB. However, I feel like the value he brings just at FB can usually be found on the waiver wire. Since I like Royster better as a 3DRB (not to mention as a backup RB in general), I’d rather keep him than KW.
Keiland can catch! Its like having another WR in there.
Plus, as you say, he backs up the FB and can serve as 3rd RB… 3X1! Versatile players.
I also like Royster as a 3rd back… and… I have to admit, he looked good vs. the Steelers.
I wish we could keep all of them!
Williams on as FB
Sellers = TE
RB’s
Hightower
Helu
Royster or Torain
"My cat's breath smells like cat food."
I think
It’s OK to out Rooster in the practice squad. That’s where Torain started last year. I say, if you DO keep ATV, stash Rooster on the PS until Torain gets hurt.
by CJHutch on Aug 17, 2011 5:45 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
getting hurt happens…. Torain gave us games last year atleast…
so what if Royster gets hurt in preseason or practice???
it depends on the injury
but the issue is Torain has yet to show he can stay healthy, either in a starting or backup role. It doesn’t make sense to cut a young guy, if hightower has already replaced Torain as the starter. They young guys can play ST, Torain can’t.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Torain IS young… this is only the kids 3rd season….
this new injury is a 1st (his wrist/hand)…. i could see if he reinjured an old injury but thats not the case…
and who said Helu and Royster will be playing special teams??
no guarantee
but since they aren’t injury prone they could very well be options
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 10:06 PM EDT up reply actions
you dont know what thay are…. neither do i… neither has played in a regular season game yet…
was Torain known for injuries in college??
yes he had a number of nagging injuries including a broken toe that took out most of his senior year
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
no guarantee he makes it
since he is more advanced in pass blocking, special teams and catching he could get snatched up.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Limas Sweed
Just got cut by Steelers and Kelly will be joining him. Such waste of talent and potential, Ohh the 2008 draft.
worse draft
Of Cerrato’s tenure, and thats saying something. 3 second round picks, and he flubbed them all. Pitiful.
by CJHutch on Aug 17, 2011 5:47 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
A closer look at Torain
Year Team G Att Att/G Yds Avg Yds/G TD Lng 1st 1st% 20+ 40+ FUM
2010 Washington 10 164 16.4 742 4.5 74.2 4 54 35 21.3 7 1 2
2008 Denver 2 15 7.5 69 4.6 34.5 1 19 4 26.7 0 0 0
this is only his 3rd year folks… can you look at these stats and claim he only brings “a little power” to the game??
Prove it!
Rank him in all the RB catagories, then see how he stacks up against the league:
Power
Speed
Ellusiveness
Catching
Blocking
Scoring
Durability
These are the catagoried RB’s are measured by. Go ahead, have at it!
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
the kid had seven 20+ yard carries in 10 games…. 7 in 10??…. hes talented Till… wether you wanna admit it or not…
by tommy gunn on Aug 17, 2011 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Do the exercise and rank him then
rank either top 1/3, middle, or bottom 1/3 in the league to make it easy…………..then we’ll see where he ranks out.
Also, don’t forget, most NFL backs have some talent………….I’m not saying he’s not talented. I just think he’s very limited in his abilities.
Anyways, go ahead and rank him, and I’ll give you mine, and we can compare………………no bias.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Why does anyone need to rank them? And on his on OUR team so if there are any rankings it needs to be w/ OUR players.
No one is saying Torain is a superstar or among the leagues best, rather he can potentially be an asset to this team.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Yeah, he's definitely no
Marcus Mason
by CJHutch on Aug 17, 2011 5:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Here's mine:
Power – top 1/3
Speed – bottom 1/3
Ellusiveness – bottom 1/3
Catching – middle(and this is being kind)
Blocking – middle
Scoring – bottom 1/3 (sorry, production hasn’t been there……….proof is in the pudding)
Durability – bottom 1/3 (not much to argue here)
It is my OPINION, that he is in the bottom 1/3 of starting RB’s in the NFL
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Well have some fun and name the 80 RBs that are better than him then.
Scoring – bottom 1/3 (sorry, production hasn’t been there……….proof is in the pudding)
He lead the team in rushing TDs last year. And Top 14 in the NFC…
Can you explain to me how the NFC’s 7th most efficient runner last year got to that point despite seeing limited action and playing behind a terrible offensive line?
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Huh? Then how can the proof be in the pudding if he's played two years in a reserve role?
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Kind of my point
Reserve role………………………kinda the best he’s going to be in this league.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
And he's very, very good in that role... So if healthy why cut him?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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by Parks Smith on Aug 17, 2011 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
damnit
Meant to say you answered your own question. He can’t stay healthy.
by CJHutch on Aug 17, 2011 5:50 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
its only his 3rd season CJ.. i think its a little too soon to label him as not being able to stay healthy..
last season was his 3rd season
this will be his 4th year in the NFL
3/4 of the way into his first season he tore his ACL, and then missed the entire 2009 campaign after the Broncos released him during camp.
Last season he had the hamstring injury, and this year the hand.
His senior year in college he had three injuries that required him to miss time, including fracturing his big toe which caused him to miss most of the season.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Even if I gave him middle in scoring(which I don't believe he is)
he’s still bottom 1/3……………….
why do you care anyways. You hate the “glass man”
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
The problem is you're giving him arbitrary ratings and not comparing him to anyone else.
The whole debate shouldn’t center around where Torain ranks around his “starting” peers around the league but rather how he ranks on this roster and if he can be beneficial to the team. At this point if Torain is health (and it was fluke injury this time), is there a just argument to cut him?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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Well, we know he sucks on this roster
and guys like Hightower are better, and guys like Helu have more POTENTIAL
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
How do we know he sucks?
we know he sucks on this roster
A RB that gave us 75 yards per game last year, out of nowhere, sucks? Why does he suck on this roster? B/c you say so? We’re not talking about taking away reps from Helu, we don’t have a feature back. Why not have a guy that we know can rattle of 75 to 100 yard days if needed on the roster? He’s certainly not a sexy runner, but he gets the job done when needed.
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Bro, I'm not an NFL talent scout
but I do have eyes, and i can read(despite what you may think to the contrary)…………now, spelling and typing is a different story.
Dude is just not that good……………………he’s back-up material at best, and like Smuts likes to say, he’s “replacement level”.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
so you can make judgements on small sample size
But others can’t?
"My cat's breath smells like cat food."
by HogNasty on Aug 17, 2011 1:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I can make judgements on real games
that have meaning, and how certain players perform under those circumstances. I can prob make a hell of a judgement on Royster since I’ve seen him play in every game of his college career……………………….but alas, I’ll hold my judgement for a later date and time.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
lol.. college??? lol… stop it… just stop it…
lol.. college??? lol… stop it… just stop it…if your in the making judgement on real games department, how do you deny Torains “real game” performance??
by tommy gunn on Aug 17, 2011 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Were you temporarily blind when...
he went for 100 against the Colts averaging 5 ypc and scoring 2 TDs?
Or what about the next week when he played the Bears and averaging 6 yards per carry and went for 125?
And you must of been deaf and blind when he went for 172 yards against the Bucs.
But you’re right he has no place in this league or on this roster…
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Replacement level
nothing more, nothing less. Don’t put words in peoples mouths.
Why are you defending a guy you so dearly referred to as “glass man”?
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
B/c people that are hurt from time to time can be valuable players and role players
Look at Percy Harvin and Reggie Bush…
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I will say this two of those were against very bad defenses (at least against the run)
the Bears game was impressive, but at the same time he had some fumbling issues there as well.
Torain is a solid starter if healthy, but his health is a huge factor.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
So.................................lets just say he's the 3rd best RB on this roster
Since the Redskins are not know to have the best RB’s in the league, that would prob mean he’s in the lowe 1/3 of RB’s(who have been starters) in the league.
Don’t quite see where this is much of a debate……………..but oh well, it is YOU I’m debating with : )P
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
comn Till, your being stubborn here… again, these arent opinions… its in black and white… since when were the Skins known to have the worst runners?? and whats yesterday have to do w/ today??
Torains average was 11th last year and his yards per game was 14th.. 20+ yarders was 15th… and thats w/ just 10 games mind you…
how can you figure if given more games he would not increase those numbers??
I'm sure he would have increased them a bit
but the point is the guy can’t stay on he field, and as a RB in the NFL, that a problem. I also see a lot more talent in the other backs on this roster. Now, will their talent transulate to the field?………………..we’ll have to wait and see. I know Torain’s, for the most part, hasn’t.
Torain has a lot going against him right now. He’s not a game-changing type of RB. He’s not a 3rd down specialist. He’s not a good blocker. He’s not a good receiver. He’s not a special teamer. All he really is, is expendable.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
we agrre to disagree.. “wpuld have increased them a bit”??? he would have increased them by another 6 games… thats almost a whole nother half of a season…
what “backs” are you seeing alot more talent in?? Helu and Royster have only played in 1 preseason game… we dont know what they are gonna do…
who’s the 3rd down specialist then? one of the unproven rookies
right now, Torian is better than Helu and Royster…
Torian is a bad fit for 3rd down
he can’t block, and he’s not that good of a receiver
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
And he's behind some other back on 1st and 2nd down
so, IMO, he’s on the cut line
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Torain is a good RB for the ZBS. He is good a the cut back into the hole and he
follows his blockers. A runner does not have to be particularly fast in the Skins offense, but they do need to be patient for holes to open up. Arian Foster is not the fastest RB in the NFL, 1.62 ten yard split versus 1.54 Ryan Torain. There goes Tiller’s speed argument.
It is known as cherry picking.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 17, 2011 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions
you mean you think Hightower will be better? has Hightower even had a starters workload in his career the answer is no…
he has averaged aoround 145 touches a season…
There is not much debating
looking at the overall talent of the two, that Hightower is the better RB. Faster, better blocker, better hands, better durability, ellusive, and runs HARD!
I’m not a big stat guy, and for the purpose of these two backs, and even Royster for that matter, stats don’t really apply as much, since neither has been a true starter over their short careers.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
See
I believe Hightower and Helu would be a helluva combo.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
They can all be combos!
It’s the NFL, no one is getting by with a feature back that pounds the ball endlessly. You can rotate all three, hell maybe even four! The way Shanny has his whole career. It’s not likely that every single back is going to last all 16 games, so we need viable rotations.
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Yeah, you could
but supposing Shanny decides to keep only 3 RB’’s(which is a possibility). Who are the 3? This is assuming we keep 2 FB’s in Young and KW)
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
That's the whole thing your whole arguement is hung up on slim possibility.
We’re not arguing who the three are. And if I had to argue it, I think the Shanny would take Torain over Royster, just like he did last year with LJ.
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Did he rotate Terrell Davis?
Not that anyone we have is Davis.
Man that was one guy I would have liked to see have a longer career…. He was a BEAST.
"My cat's breath smells like cat food."
I think Hightower
and Hooks were a hell of a combo. But I always liked Tackkeberry the most.
by CJHutch on Aug 17, 2011 6:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
well done
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Evan Royster had a 1.58 ten yard spilt so he is slightly slower than Torain (1.54). Both
are faster than Arian Foster (1.62 ten yard split). HIghtower’s times 1.59 10-yard dash &
2.63 20-yard dash – http://40-yard-dash-times.com/arizona-cardinals-rb.html
With a 1.51 second ten yard split Roy Helu is the fastest of the bunch. K. Williams also had a 1.51 ten yard split. So much for the speed issue.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 17, 2011 11:28 PM EDT up reply actions
that really doesn't bode well for Torain, as he can't stay healthy to get carries
Hightower has had to deal with bigger name backs on the roster.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Do you remember what Torain's injury was rookie year.
The injury this year is more of a fluke than anything IMO.
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You can same the same about Kelly's injury this preseason
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Yea I absolutely can say the same thing.
Only thing is Kelley has never produced in the regular season the way Torain did last year.
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I understand the production Torain had last year
and I also understand the poor line we had, but please don’t try and tell me that Torain is something special. He’s a below average talent, who’s always hurt, and was thrust into a situation out of need.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Where has anyone presented him as something special?
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Where did he say that?
All he said was:
????
a bit of power? did you see him play at all
And you told him to get off Torain’s jock…
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special would be top ten… hes not special…
bottom ten would be below average… hes not that either..
he falls somewhere in the middle… top middle somewhere in my opinion
by tommy gunn on Aug 17, 2011 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I do think this is a fun exercise though I do think he gets some points for playing behind that o-line last year
here’s my rankings:
Power: top 1/3
Speed: middle…he has a good 2nd gear
Elusiveness: I’ll say bottom but it could be at the lower range of middle as well
Catching: middle (and i agree it is generious)
Blocking: bottom
Scoring: middle, this is where not having an o-line matters the most to me
Durability: Bottom
In the end we are in the same place essentially, but I do think he is a capable back when healthy and deserves a shot somewhere. Personally I’d rather go with the young guys
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Cool
see, that was fun. I have to disagree with you on speed. Thats no where near middle. But your right, we did come to essentially the same conclusion. Now lets have Parks do it(just for fun….wink, wink)
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
I'll just endorse Steve's instead of coming up with my own, we already discussed it in our secret meetings
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Good
so for as much agruing you have done in defending Torain, you actually agree with Steveo and I…………………..funny.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
You're argument was he doesn't deserve a spot on this roster.
Mine is that he does and can contribute. Your reading comprehension is……funny.
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He may earn a roster spot
but it will be as a reserve, and will more than likely be behind 2 others. Thats some talent for ya.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Yea NFL back ups have no talent, they are basically dudes off the street.
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have to disagree
IF he earns a spot, he’ll be too 2. Shanny’s mancrush on him guarantees it.
by CJHutch on Aug 17, 2011 6:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
why play this game when you can look at real numbers… his stats are concrete proof of his ability….
power top 1/3?? what 20 RB’s run more powerful then Torain??
elusive bottom?? how do u get 7 twenty plus yarders in ten games and average 4.5 if you cant avoid tackles??
blocking bottom?? might not be the best but i dont recall him being horendous..
Dude...the whole feature is about how stats don't always tell the story.
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i read the feature.. i also read that some stats do shed light… so which stats shed light when talking about a RB??
a lot of it is just adding context
for instance the 4.5 ypc is impressive, but if you take that tampa game out of the equation his average was 4.1 still good but not great. If you eliminate the Detroit game as well, it goes back up to 4.3. That is probably a more accurate number than say the Tampa game which was an obvious outlier.
Another issue with Torain, is he showed little consistency. He’d break off a nice run or two a game, but for the rest of his carries he did nothing.
A good example is the Jacksonville game where he had 20 carries for 65 yards (3.3 ypc), but if you take away that 17 yard run, he had just 2.5 ypc for his remaining 19 carries. That was true in the majority of his games. And unlike a running back like say Micheal Turner or Rashad Mendenhall, Torain’s YPC (per game or for the season) didn’t take a big hit from the Redskins running out the clock in games. A lot of times you’ll see backs have 6-10 carries against 9 man fronts that are designed to only get a couple yards. Torain didn’t have those excuses.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
yeah Torain's problem is that Tampa game vastly overrates his stats
now if he played all 16 games it wouldn’t be as big of an issue. But as it stands it makes him look a lot better. And that Tampa defensive line was awful, b/c McCoy went down early, and Price was already injured.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I was just going to say the same thing
Tampa had some key injuries that game
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Parks pointed out 3 outstanding games of Torains.. you only choose to see 1???
what did Torain do to you and Till?
well it was the game that was an outlier
The Colts game also went up against one of the league’s worst rush defenses. The Bears had one of the best so that is impressive.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
So where does Torain's season stand
when you remove the outliers, Steveo?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Aug 17, 2011 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions
If you remove both (low and high) of them his YPC is 4.3
he ends up with 131 carries for 562 yards still good numbers, but his consistency is an issue, and of course the biggest issue is his health.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
And of course the fact that the dude couldn't even outrun me
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
power – thats a gimme..
speed – not to sure exactly how fast he is but i dont think hes the slowest..
ellusive – seven 20+ yarders in 10 games..
catching – do we need all our RB’s to be pass catchers??
blocking – not terrible
scoring – 4 TD’s in 10 games.. on pace for atleast 7 in 16… not bad…
durability – as i stated before, thats the only thing w/ him…. a HEALTHY Torain is a very good option to have at RB…
rank like I gave you
top, middle or bottom 1/3 in the league.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
What are you arguing he's in the the lower third?
There are roughly 120 RBs in the league on active roster during the regular season. Do you really think Torain is in the 80-120 range? I’d like to see the 80 guys ranked ahead of him…
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We were talking starting RB's(since he wasw one last year)
I’m just doing this with Tommy Gun for fun and debate. Stop being so damn angry all the time
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
lower 3rd? how so i hope you say that because of his health… i wouldnt say he’s in the top but hes not in the third… right now i give him middle of the pack and thats only because of his health.. 16 games and i think he would be slightly above the middle…. he was on pace for around 1100/1200 yards last season… he was on pace to end up somewhere around the 10th/11th/12th/13th spot (RB’s) last year…
how are you guys denying this kids talent??
16 games and i think
Think being the operative word here
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
you have no choice but to say “i think”… thats with anybody… just like i think A. Peterson will be a beast at RB this year…. do you not??
Proof and "I think"
are two totally different things. Torains proven nothing.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
What did he need to do last year to PROVE it?
Lead the team in rushing and rushing TDs? O wait…
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I've been looking(eventhough I'm not much of a stat guy)
and I’m not coming up with too much………………………….can’t figure out why either.
Wait………………….could it be BECAUSE HE"S HARDLY PLAYED!
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
It's all reality for me
I simply see an average to below-average RB, who can easily be upgraded. Ask youself this question: If Torain is the weapon you make him out to be, why did we draft 2 RB’s, bring in a 3rd as an UDFA, and then trade for another?
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
You say this after earlier saying that Shanny give preferential treatment to Torain..
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Who else was going to give him a shot
and who else would have started him. Shanny is one of the few. His(Shanny’s) ego may have gotten into the way here a bit too; think he can turn any back into an all-pro. Ain’t happening with this kid.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
You're comical
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i think the hightower pickup was the upgrade over Torain… at the starter position that is… that just means Torian will be bumped to back-up.. teams are using 2/3 RB combos now-a-days anyway..
now ask yourself why Torain wasnt let go of already??
No need to just yet
we will see once cut-down time comes
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
I see Hightower, Torain, Helu, Royster
I do belive that Torain should be cut, but I think hes gonna stay for the sake of him strting last year.
West Springfield Spartans OUTSIDE LB #47
HTTR
by SpartanFS47 on Aug 17, 2011 1:15 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Not a Fair Comparison
Kelly has been virtually unable to stay healthy enough to play in any regular season games. Torain played most of the year last year.
Is he the healthiest back ever, nope…but he’s far more durable than Malcolm Kelly
Shanny thought so… besides, Torian has seen more games than Kelly… if he kept Kelly who saw just about no playing time then why wouldnt he keep Torain who gave him 10 games??
My thoughts on Royster..
He’s a guy that will get you every YD that is available on a given play, nothing more and nothing less. Those guys are a dime a dozen but what seperates Royster is his ability out of the backfield, durability, and pass pro. He’s going to be tough to cut.
@Callahan_9 on the twitter machine.
by Diesel44 on Aug 17, 2011 1:29 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
i agree
though i will say Royster’s vision and toughness ensure that ‘every yard available’ is usually going to be on the positive side.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I liked the article
It was a good read, and I know Hightower and Royster were really the only examples you had, but I don’t think it really works in this case because you are talking about one guy – Hightower – getting carries against a first team defense, and another guy – Royster in this example – who’s probably getting carries against second and third team defenses. I mean having a 3.87 ypc against a first team Steelers defense is pretty damn good, and having a 3.92 ypc against second and third team defenses isn’t really all that impressive is it?
agreed
if the point of this article is to see the bigger picture than just the stats, isnt who they are running against and when a pretty important factor to consider?
Hail to 'Em
by SkinsaneAsylum on Aug 17, 2011 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Parks is right below
if anything it helps Royster’s case b/c he was playing with our backup line, against other backups. While Hightower was running with our starters against a defense that was made up of 80% 2nd stringers.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Couldn't you also say it offsets b/c of the quality of your supporting cast also?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Yep
I agree with that. Royster was running behind the second and third team O-line as well, so you have a point there.
He did get some reps with the big boys though, also.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
definitely...
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I think what this really tells us is
our O-line is way better than last year and we are going to the Superbowl!!! Sorry, just trying to cut the tension in here. Thought I would get some laughs with that statement..
No Tension
we’re all just having fun at each other’s expense…………………………as usual
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
again those are small samples
and it is hard to define things like that. Essentially we played 10 out of 11 starters (no Cooley). The Steelers had multiple starters missing, and almost all were out of the game after the 2nd series. So Hightower primarily ran against 2nd teamers as well (and Royster had a couple carries there as well). Royster’s numbers were far better than Helu, who really did run against the majority of 4th teamers. I really wasn’t doing a comparison, but rather giving context.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I got you
and like I said, it was a good piece, I was just playing devils advocate. As Parks pointed out, they probably weren’t running behind the same line either, so I guess you could go either way with it.
no i appreciate it, the questions and the debate (as well as the compliment)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
The blockers for both Helu and Royster excluding the first half were also 2nd-4th team players. So there are other factors
to consider in a preseason game. That is one reason the coaches will focus on game film on an individual player basis.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 17, 2011 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Well done Steve
I am excited about the prospect of this piece. I wonder if Tiller will be able to control himself this season in this comments section! He loves areguing about this kind of stuff.
Steve, I would love to read what you think the numbers are saying or not saying about our linebackers. I understand only two games of preseason action is a hard sell when it comes to making a point, but my assumption is that the numbers will say we sucked out loud there last season and have already seen an improvement. I leave it to you to determine which stats are applicable and how one should interpret them.
Why you picking on me Ken
people did it to me with my Ryan Mallet statement……………………………………………….i’m going into the corner to cry now!
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Thanks Ken
unless something major happens this friday I’ll look into the linebackers next week.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Shouldn't it be Stats vs. Reality
rather than Stats vs. Fiction…
I think your whole point is that stats by themselves don’t tell the whole story (that story being reality), and instead stats skew details into a fictional tale (thus making those one in the same). And you wouldn’t set two like units against each other, so I believe the working title for this article series should be- Stats vs. Reality.
I think we should make this a two part piece.
Once a week when we’re all hammered drunk and once a week when we’re sober.
This obviously doesn’t apply to Tiller who is constantly buzzed with his IV of peach schnapps.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
the thing is we cant just ignore stats…. like it or not, stats play a great part in evaluating a player of certain positions (skill positions)….
I agree, and that's what I am saying...
So in not ignoring stats and their place in evaluation, we are setting “Stats vs. Reality” not against Fiction.
yeah that might be a better name for it
I want to go with “Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics” but Stats vs Reality works well
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
In the long haul the stats mean something. In one game they don't mean as much. The Skins had a decent drive from
their own 1 yard line to the Steelers 16, but due to the field goal miss it did not result in points on the score board. In some game the Team may end up with a short field due to a fumble recovery and subsequently score a touchdown. The stats are important if they reflect the way a game was actually played, i.e., the sequence of the plays rather than summaries. Usually time of possession is in favor of the winning team, whereas, the team with the short end on turnovers usually loses. Your approach of eliminating outliers is good. At the Census Bureau when developing parameters to be used for identifying outliers with a hot deck of “good information” can become standard of comparison. Historical information can be the starting point for identifying outlier as well.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 17, 2011 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Well.....................
Tiger Blood Bah! I got Makers Mark running thru my veins! But anyhow, I’ll always remember what my college Statistics Prof told me:
“Statistics don’t like, but statisticians work for somebody”.
thanks! I appreciate it
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
It would have been interesting if you would have included Helu in the comparison of excluding outliers.
Helu did get stopped in the back field a few times, but he also was playing with less talented blockers probably more than Royster and for sure, Hightower.
“Another thing to look at is taking away a player’s lowest and highest rushing total (the outliers), and look at his yard per carry average. For Royster that means taking away his 15 yarder, and one of his no gain rush attempts. Which leaves Royster with 51 yards on 13 carries, for a 3.92 ypc average. While that doesn’t seem to impressive, look at how that compares to Hightower, when you take away his 16 yard run, and his -3 yard run, he has eight attempts and 31 yards, for a 3.87 ypc average. Now there really isn’t a huge difference between the two numbers for Royster and Hightower, but it does disprove a prevailing thought among some, that Royster’s 4.4 average was inflated by a fluke 15 yard run. "
here you go
3 of Helu’s 8 carries went for no gain or less. If you take away his top carry (18 yards) and his lowest carry (-3), you are left with 6 carries for 13 yards or 2.16 ypc.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I did not watch it all but the NFL Networks replay did show a number of plays where the defense got good penetration
on most of Helu’s carries. The defense did not get much penetration most of the game and may have been keying on Helu.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 17, 2011 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Congrats on the promotion...
I am going to like this little series. I am always open to debating things like this, but I don’t really care about arguing about a UDFA RB preseason performance. I will skim through it though and if I see anything that is too good to pass up then I will let it be known…
haha
do you know what UDFA stands for? Royster was drafted
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I would like to go with
Hightower, Torain, Helu, Royster, and Young for our backfield…i would much rather have Torain than KW – i dont remember being impressed by anything he did last year (not looking at stats). Other guys can pass block and catch passes out of the backfield just as well or better.
yes but other guys can't be a backup FB
and Torain can’t be a pass blocker or special teamer like KW can. And he is a worst receiver.
It is a valid discussion, but unless Torain is going to get 120-150 carries a backup, I’d rather have the better utility guy.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Greg Trippiedi reasons that "Special Teams usage are a good indicator of who is really safe from release."
http://redskinshogheaven.com/2011-articles/august/special-teams-usage-are-a-good-indicator-of-who-is-really-safe-from-release.html
This connects with your thought that “I’d rather have the better utility guy.” “It is likely that the Redskins will end up keeping three guys on this roster who have played fullback under Kyle Shanahan. Darrel Young clearly has the inside track to be the starter, but (K.) Williams has the versatility to be the team’s third down back if Tim Hightower ascends to starter, and so while many of us have questioned Mike Sellers role on this team, you can imagine that the Redskins may have to tie special teams coach Danny Smith up and lock him in a closet if they are going to take away a player this useful on special teams.” Keiland Williams played on 3 of the 4 special teams against the Steelers.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 17, 2011 7:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I forgot we drafted him...
so our later round picks are outperforming our early round picks at the same position…
Paul over Hankerson
Royster over Helu
Don't forget NT Nield (7th) and LB Markus White (7th) might make the roster too!
Markus White looked great… and with Kerrigan limping… he might just make it!
Here is my analysis:
Take away every positive run Torain has ever had and he has a negative YPC.
Take away every more than 4 yards Torain had and he has less than a 4.0 YPC.
This argument is ridiculous.
Torain is pretty good. He’s not Barry Sanders, but he’s pretty good.
BTW I like the article Steve.
On another note…10-6
"That's what she said!"
Thanks
haha, though that isn’t the point (and really this isn’t about Torain it just went there)
those outliers still count (both positive and negative) both on the stat sheet and game day. But by removing them it helps to see a more accurate representation of the player.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Excellent article
I thought it pointed out that statistics can say whatever you want them to say. I don’t think your conclusions were in the least controversial, I think Tiller just has his panties in a bunch
by DoWork on Aug 17, 2011 4:20 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Everyone knows Tiller goes commando...
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
thanks!
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Actually this should have been about Royster
but it went all-Torain on us. I don’t hate Torain, I just think he’s below average and replacement level at best. I’m sick of us being average. It’s been that way too long.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Good Article
Supporting your point on McNabb, the ESPN TQBR rated McNabb at 28th out of the 33 QB’s they rated for last season. Not good.
Formerly KS and CS
by ThrowItDownBigManThrowItDown on Aug 17, 2011 4:46 PM EDT reply actions
thanks!
yeah McNabb was quite bad last season, and even with the variables of a bad oline and weapons, he should have been much better considering what we paid for him.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Royster might be able to contribute this year on a rotational RB basis
It’s a little early to be able to tell, but I agree he made a good start his 1st game. He’s not a bad RB, I don’t understand why all the drama about whether he has a chance to make the team. He’s not a speedster, but his combine 40 times & Ingrams were almost identical. He could turn into a good back-up or rotational type player…it’s a little early to know for sure but it’s an interesting topic & a good article.
Speed at RB
These days the speed factor at RB is highly overrated. Defenses are so fast now that you rarely see the game breaking 50+ yard TD run anymore. I prefer to look at vision/balance/burst and Royster has all of those, plus he’s skilled in pass protection.
great points
and exactly why Royster has a real shot to have an impact, esp. in this system.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Steveo26... Congrats on a great article!
You guys (authors and editors) should alternate days/articles… so there is always a new topic/article to discuss!
I hate it when 1-2 days pass without a new topic of discussion in HH.
I’m thinking along the lines of Mon-Wed (Roster Battles… Parks), Tue-Thu (Stats vs. Fiction… Steveo26), Fri (Roundtable…), Sat (Gameday preview articles), Sun (Open thread on the day’s game), Mon (Case of…), etc.
Maybe you already do this… and I just haven’t noticed… anyway… Good Article!
haha with the season starting we are doing exactly that
and will have a couple articles each day to further the discussion. Some of them won’t start until the season, but they are coming.
Thanks for the compliment!
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Aug 17, 2011 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Great post!
The guy can be a solid pro. He can catch, block and runs hard. He has a knack for gaining positive yardage and moving piles. His ability is underestimated simply due to a lack of breakaway speed. Not many guys are busting 50 yard runs in today’s league. The field is full of speed guys. You need a guy who can consistently get positive yardage.
Thanks!
I agree, Royster is a good fit for this team.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Royster
All running backs have speed, breakaway speed is an over used term get real. The man well run hard just like Torain or Helu…..

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