Should Corner be a Secondary Issue?
Lately there have been rumblings about what to do about this whole Carlos Rogers situation. Rogers has expressed on more than one occasion his issues with the Redskins.
What his fate might be is up to Bruce Allen and Mike Shanahan. Of course the pending lockout has this situation on hold at the moment.
For arguments sake, let us assume Rogers will not be here next year.
Is Asomugha the answer? That's up for debate. He will demand a king's ransom of a contract, yet he will probably play up to expectations. But just don't think the Redskins will pay the price for him, and I actually think they would be much better off paying free agents at other positions, more specifically the fat guys that stand in front of the quarterback.
The answer to the cornerback quandary, in my opinion, is on the team. I think Kevin Barnes is ready to step up and take that position . He performed admirably during his three games last season. Albeit he was playing safety, not corner, but barnes might have the goods to be a great NFL corner.
In a small sample size I present to you the 2010 statistics of Barnes, DeAngelo Hall and Carlos Rogers.
Hall: 95 tackles, 16 pass deflections and 6 interceptions.
Rogers: 54 tackles, 12 pass deflections and 2 interceptions ( or as I call them miracles).
Barnes: 12 tackles, 4 pass deflections and 1 interception.
When those stats are averaged out into a 16 game season you get 64 tackles, 21 pass deflections and 5 interceptions. Not bad.
This debate at corner might not be a debate at all, and Barnes will only get better.
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I agree! I believe that the lockout will work in the favor of Barnes. Of all of the positions of “need” that we have, this is the one position that I feel can be filled using Barnes. Of course there are other glaring issues with this roster, I just think that giving Barnes a shot and resigning Phil B, we could focus more on the other positions of need.
This is definitely one position
where I’d like to see what we have on the roster before we bring in a free agent that will probably keep our young guys off of the field.
We still need another CB, Barnes hasn't even won a nickle job in camp.
I wouldn’t look at stats when looking at a CB either, it’s the most deceiving position statistics-wise there is, no matter how you extrapolate it out. If you have a lot of tackles and INTs as a CB it means you’re being targeted more so than others.
Look at Nnamdi Asomugha and his rise to prominence since ‘08, he’s averaging 26 tackles per year and .66 INTs per year.
Barnes can compete in camp, but we need someone else for sure. The thought of Hall-Barnes starting the season together makes me throw up in mouth.
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While I agree that Barnes isn't ready
it is surprising how so many people care more about investing in the secondary as opposed to getting linemen. More people are concerned about Barnes starting as opposed to letting Anthony Bryant or Perry Riley. In reality all those positions need to be addressed, but it is funny how people are willing to accept the lesser pedigree/experience (and probably talent) at more important positions.
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I don't think that's it at all
I think the thought process is that Riley or Bryant are part of a 7 man front that operates together. Most teams have at least 1 player in their front 7 that could use an upgrade. For a team who is clearly rebuilding, not having all 7 be starter quality is expected.
However, a CB is much more on their own out in space. They don’t have 6 other guys around them that can pick up slack. Not having two true CB’s can kill you.
yeah but we aren't talking about just average guys here
Bryant would easily be the worst starting NT in the league yet a solid % of fans seem okay with that. Carriker is a guy that could be upgraded, but if he was say on the same line as Pickett and Raji for the Packers you wouldn’t notice.
The best defenses in this league are built from the front back, and it has always been that way. Look at how many times the Redskins have drafted or signed big name DB’s in the last 15 years, and it has never been the principal reason for their defensive success. But not having frontline Dline and line backers has been why this team has struggled.
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Why are you so down on Carriker
He was/is a Haslett guy, and bu all accounts, had his best year in 2010. He was bounced around in St Louis, going between the 4-3 and 3-4. He also played NT, which is clearly not his best position.
The guy is young, and just may finally be in a defense that fits his skillset. He is exactly what Haslett like in his 3-4 DE’s.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
I don't have anything against him
but as you said last year was his best season, but it still wasn’t that good. Look around the league and see that he really wouldn’t be starting for most teams in the league. And on a number of teams he wouldn’t even be the top defensive end reserve.
Carriker is pretty solid against the run (but he is my no means exceptional or some run defense specialist) but he is a huge liability against the pass.
What Carriker is (though not as good just yet) is Brett Kiesel. A guy who is the 7th best guy on his team’s front 7. He is average to above average on every snap, but he doesn’t need to be anything more because all the exceptional players around him pick up the slack. If the Redskins had two other star D-linemen and were more consistent at LB (which could happen this year if Kerrigan is a quick study and Orakpo tightens up his run D), then he’d be fine in that role player position. But right now he isn’t bringing much to the table outside of being relatively cheap.
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You can't expect the front 7 to be built in a year though
We just drafted a DE and OLB and a NT. It’s work in progress, and a large part of that is time in the scheme also.
However CB isn’t like that. It’s a single player, drop them in, and its done. I am not advocating signing a huge name for a big contract, but I’m just trying to explain why I think CB is more pressing than the front 7.
You can compare our front to the Packers all you want, but so can any team. We are not a contender, and thus shouldnt be holding out front 7 to that standard yet. Do we want it to be there? Sure, but we also need to make sure the secondary isn’t a liability, and that is a much quicker, simpler fix.
compare our front 7 to any 3-4 team and we are at the bottom of the rankings
We have a chance here to significantly improve our team with a signing like Franklin. And He will have a bigger impact over an CB you could add.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 20, 2011 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
A good NT can improve the performance of the DBs. Pressure up the middle can prevent the
opposing QB from stepping up thus reducing the amount of time the DBs have to be in tight pass defense.
Also the NT play can increase the sacks and turnovers of other players. Wilfork, NE’s NT is disruptive of the opponent’s offense in general, but the pass offense in particular. Franklin is a smaller man, but is good in run defense. The sooner the NT position is upgraded, the sooner the whole defense will gel. The contender argument is over played since the team can focus on other positions once the defense is of better quality.
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 20, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions
If we don't have a decent NT then Kerackpo's talent and impact just gets flushed down the toilet
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I don't understand how so many people can say we addressed NT in the draft.
Nield looks like a good prospect, but he was the second to last guy taken in the draft! He’s far from a given. You need a NT in the 3-4, it’s the most crucial aspect. If you don’t have a solid NT then you’re screwed and the defense will look just like it did last year.
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by Parks Smith on Jun 20, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not saying we filled NT
I just said we drafted a NT along with DE and OLB.
My point is that we have put time/picks/effort into the front 7. What have we lost of the front 7 from last year? Haynesworth (meaningless).
What have we put in to bolstering our secondary? Atogwe, but that kinda evens out by losing Carlos.
I want another NT and/or DE in FA, but my take is that, were only gonna sign so many more guys, and I’d rather see some improvement in both the front 7 and the secondary, as opposed to completely handling the front 7 in one year, then the secondary another year.
If we can do both, great.
Didn't make this real clear
But i was trying to say that I don’t think Nield is the answer. Just a use of resources going towards the front 7 as opposed to the secondary.
here's the thing though
you are assuming that the d-line and D-backs were on the same level last year and that isn’t even close to the case. While we start 3 on the DL, you need at least two quality backups who will get a ton of snaps, just like how you need a quality nickel CB. So basically you need 5 players at both positions.
In the backfield we have three of those positions filled with at least good players (and you can make a case for Landry being potentially great). Rogers still needs replaced, but honestly I’m okay with Barnes stepping up to the nickel role. So we really only have one hole to fill.
Along the defensive line, we lost Haynesworth (or will) who was are only talented player. If the season started today we’d have a below-average to average starter in Carriker, a well below average to down right bad trio of NT’s, and an average to potentially good player in Jenkins. Behind them you have two average backups in Jarmon and Holliday, neither of whom would be upgrades over Carriker.
If there is a position in need of a talent boost it has to be our D-line, especially since it is a more important position.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 21, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
What part of this team do you think is above average?
According to you, the entire team(besided safety and TE)need upgrading, and you seem fine with doing it all through FA.
We have been down the FA road time and time again, and it hasn’t been successful. Now, if we loose a key player to FA, then I’m all for rplacing that player with a young, talented FA, but you seem to want to just go out and add Free Agents to fill all these holes on this team, while completly ignoring the players we already have on the roster. Your advocating signing two of the highest profiole NT’s who may be avaliable. You also want another DT or two.
I believe we are going to be a poor team for at least another two years, and signing 30 year old DT’s to high priced contracts is certainly not building for the future. By the time we are ready to be competitive again, those high priced FA’s, who probably will have done nothing to help us win, will have to be replaced.
Maybe instead of going out and signing 1-2 high priced NT’s, and another 1-2 DT’s, we should use the guys we already have, and the guys we just drafted. No one knows how the defense will play in year 2 of the 3-4. Maybe Bryant, Neild, Jenkins, Jarmon, Carriker and Holliday can get the job done. We have one of the best MLB’s in the game, and also have 2 potentially very explosive OLB’s. We could very well have one of the top 3 safety tandems in the league. If Rogers stays, our secondary should be a very good unit. If Rogers leaves, his position will obviously have to be filled. Maybe Barnes can step into it, or maybe we need a young Free Agent CB(no Namdi please).
The same can be said for the O-Line. You(and many others) are advocating all these FA signings. I believe now, that FA signings are only when you are close to having a team, and just need a ew more pieces. We are obviously not close yet, so I’d rather go opposite, and build from within. Then, once we are ready to contend, a few FA’s could be what pushes us over the top.
Disclaimer – I will however be excited as the rest of you when Free Agency starts, and we start signing some big-time players : )P
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
No one knows how the defense will play in year 2 of the 3-4.
I do…poorly…if we don’t get a serviceable NT.
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Have you ever seen Neild or Jenkins play in the NFL?
If I remember correctly, you said in a post a few weeks ago that Jenkins has ideal size to play NT.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
I did and he said he prefers to play NT. But I feel as if he'll be a rotational guy mostly a DE.
The coaches always talk about him as a DE. You yourself went on and on the other day about how he’ll be a DE. Until we have a true anchor then this D-line will just be a giant game of musical chairs.
To answer your other question: No I have never seen Neild play in the NFL. But I’m not about to have blind faith in a guy that was drafted 253rd out 254 picks to come in day 1 and anchor our defense and fulfill our need at the most important position in the 3-4. Sorry..
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Yes I do believe Jenkins is best suited for DE
and I’m sure he will also play some situational NT.
Question for you – Is a 30+ year old Franlkin/Jenkins going to make us instantly better? Every 3-4 defense is a little different. Supposed Franklin and Jenkins were asked to play a shaded gap tech in San Fran and GB, and here in DC they are just asked to occupy blockers so our backers can make playes.
Also injury concerns and wear-and-tear have to be a concern with either of these two guys.
Personally, I’d rather see us sign Ian Williams, and let he, Neild and Bryant fight it out in camp.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
I have not once campaigned for Cullen Jenkins but I will for Franklin.
I obviously hate “old”, overpriced free agents. But, you NEED a good NT. If you trot Williams, Neild, and Bryant out there then you’re sending out lambs to be slaughtered at this point. And if we don’t have a quality NT then you basically retard and void any potential production you may get from Orakpo, Kerrigan, Jenkins, and anyone else that plays OLB and DE. There is a reason Bryant has been on like 8 teams in 6 years and only made two of them. Why can’t Williams and Neild be rotational guys and learn under an experienced NFL NT for a couple of years.
You can sit here and say “well have you seen Neild play in the NFL”. But I can pose the same question right back to you. Have you seen him play in the NFL? If we don’t have a good NT then out whole defense will suck, period.
You know who I have seen play in the NFL? Aubrayo Franklin, and the dude can ball. He’s hasn’t missed a game since 2007, and has been a rock. You act like these guys are getting Haynesworth money. Allen can get the guys for reasonable contracts and that’s why Steve wants them. Steve has a better understanding of the financial numbers than 99% of us here.
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I'm glad you have found a firend in Steveo
All that aside, The point I bring up is still valid.
We are not going to be a winning franchise in 2011. We have already tried the FA route too many times, and we have missed on way more than we hit on.
You mentioned it yourself that Allen is not about to throw big money at these guys, so if your Franklin, and nearing the end of your career, do you believe Washington is an option? He’s not going to get the record contract here. He’s certainly not going to win a Super Bowl here anytime soon. So why in the hell would he want to play here?
Either way, I don’t want him. Too old, and will demand too much money.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Why would he play here? Not too many other teams are chomping for a NT.
Supply and demand, he’ll get a better deal than anywhere else. I didn’t say Allen won’t throw big money at someone, I was conveying that he knows how to massage the cap and fit all types of contracts.
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Again
half the teams in the NFL now run the 3-4. why would he want to play here.
You said these same words a few months ago when we were talking about some premium offensive FA’s.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
yes but most 3-4 teams actually address the NT position
so he isn’t an option there. The Pats and Steelers are set. The Ravens look good with Gregg and Cody, Buffalo will go with Williams, the Packers are quite good with Raji (as are Dallas). The Dolphins franchised Soali and the Cards just drafted Williams. The 49ers are looking to move on, and the Jets drafted Ellis.
Of what is remaining I think the Chiefs and Chargers are the most likely, though the Chiefs did draft Powe. The Texans are a potential suitor, but that is about it.
Franklin might have 2-4 teams to sort through.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions
So if i'm Franklin
and I’m looking at the Chargers, Texans, Redskins and Chiefs(just an example), the Redskins come in 3rd on my list.
If i’m the Skins, there is no way I give top 10 NT money to a soo-to-be 31 year old NT.
If I’m the 49ers, with a new HC, I try to keep a guy like Franklin, because I know he fits my system.
Also, the 49ers version of the 3-4 is quite different from ours. We like space eaters at NT, while the NT in their system is asked to penetrate the gap a lot more.
Overall, not sure it’s a good fit, or a wise descision.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Oh i agree the Redskins might not be his top choice
but that doesn’t mean we won’t be his best choice. A team like the Chargers probably doesn’t have the kind of cap room that we do, since they have a lot of good veteran players. And considering they need to focus on their own big name FA’s Franklin might not be a priority. Wade Phillips of the Texans has preferred of late the smaller quicker NT’s. They could still go for Franklin, but he is by no means a perfect fit. The Chiefs are a bit more a wildcard, they took Powe so they could feel more comfortable (despite the late round pick he was widely considered a quality NT). Also resources could be an issue as they have a ton of money invested in the line with Dorsey and Jackson.
All those teams could still have an interest on some level, but none are as perfect a fit or have the money the Skins do.
As for the 49ers, while they have the same D-line coach, it is a new HC and DC, so they could decide to bring in their own guys. Overall I think you are right about the 49ers system (esp. how they use Justin Smith), but they def. used Franklin in a clogging role, that occupied blockers for Willis and Spikes. They adapted to their personnel (hint hint Shanny).
I wouldn’t do a crazy contract for Franklin, but yeah paying him the $7 million average of Hampton and Wilfork last year is good in my book. I would look to guarantee the first 2 years, so if his play falls off down the road you can cut him with little negative impact (assuming all that stays the same in the CBA). Overall DT’s age really well so I would bank on Franklin having 3-4 more good years.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I like the Redskins Fan Excuse Flow Chart that we all use.
Don’t Like the Player -→ Argue we’ve spent on FAs before and it hasn’t worked/ Argue Age/ Argue Locker Room Presence
Like the Player——> Argue this guy is different
We’ve all done this for a number of free agent prospects this offseason. But there can only be one, ultimate flip-flopper…
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by Parks Smith on Jun 22, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
You mean Tiller has flip-flopped from the 2010
pre-season?
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 22, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
haha
maybe I am wrong about the numbers for all of these players, but I try to look at historical precedent. Who knows maybe Franklin wants Haynesworth money or Hanie McNabb money.
You are right, Washington isn’t exactly the best destination for players right now, but really there aren’t many other NT options for Franklin right now. Maybe SD, but they have Jackson, Weddle and Floyd to deal with (plus replacing Sproles).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
SD doesn't need Franklin because they have nose tackles that can
get the job done, particularly Garay.
Garay, Antonio 325lbs
Nwagbuo, Ogemdi 312lbs
Thomas, Cam 325lbs
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 23, 2011 7:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Please explain, I don't understand what you mean here:
And if we don’t have a quality NT then you basically retard and void any potential production you may get from Orakpo, Kerrigan, Jenkins, and anyone else that plays OLB and DE.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
NT has to collapse the pocket.
If they don’t eat up blockers and cause a collapse then the rest of your pass rush is nearly negated. Then that puts extra pressure on the DBs.
We don’t have a valid NT on the roster right now, it’s like giving Kerrigan a BMW but not giving him the keys. If we’re going to have youthful pass rushers like Kerackpo, Jarvis, etc. then we need a good NT to collapse the pocket so they can be effective. If we don’t have that NT then the 3-4 is pointless and you’re left with another ineffective defense like last year.
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It helps if they don't get pushed 5 YDs by every team's C..
Could you imagine the stalemate between Rabach and Kemo?
It’s a bonus if they can take on TWO blockers and collapse the pocket.
@Diesel__44 on the twitter machine.
You just blew my freaking mind...
Kemo vs Rabach would last all 12 Rds and would end in a bitter draw.
@Diesel__44 on the twitter machine.
I understand what a NT does
I just don’t understand how the play of a NT would effect the play of Rak, Kerrigan, Carriker and Jenkins.
I understand how it effects the DB’s, and the LB’s, just not the rest of the D-Line.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
last year...and if we went with the incumbents
we would have a NT that not only wouldn’t command a double-team, but could basically be dominated by the center. No team ever had to give guard help against our NT which meant that our ends got more attention than they should; Be it against the run or against the pass a guy like Franklin would command more guard/FB help, which should allow more 1-on-1 matchups for Jenkins, Carriker and Jarmon
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 12:27 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
We want ALL of our front 3 to command Double Teams
which will free up our backers to make plays. This is the reason Haynesworth didn’t want to play in our version of the 3-4. Now, it’s not possible for every player to command a DT on the front, but as long as 2 out of the 3 are getting some attention, thats is what is desired.
The guards heads are on a swivel when they are up against a 3-4. On passing downs they almost have to slide protect to pick up the DE one-on-one, because the OT is responsible for the outside rush of the OLB. IF we are rushing 5, and they have 5 blockers, the likelihood of a DT is from a TE, or help from a RB.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
exactly...that is what I've been saying all along
we need 2 D-linemen who command Double Team’s from either guards or backs and TE’s. Last year Haynesworth was the only one who did so, and when he was out (which was quite often) they would through a double team on Carriker or Golston, just b/c they had extra blockers there and that left them completely ineffective. It also mean’t backs and TE’s were in to block the blitzers and help out against Orakpo.
Right now we don’t have a singular lineman who would command a DT on an every play basis. Jarvis Jenkins could have that potential and will prob. get the most attention, but Offensive coordinators aren’t going to run away from him, or have 3 o-linemen blocking him, that they would do at times against Big Al.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Did you watch last season?
More often than not, Fat Albert was blocked quite effectively by only one guy.
A Redskin Potato
by Mr PotatoHead on Jun 22, 2011 10:24 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Sometimes it didn't even take that many
Fat Albert was blocked quite effectively by only one guy.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_f29clHlnhJ0/TONZwwI6YrI/AAAAAAAAAPY/rqcuXHQbrac/s640/haynesworthsleepy.gif
yawn he did more on that play than 7 of the other skins on that play
you notice how he actually penetrated and drove Hermanns back…if the rest of our defense didn’t suck, Haynesworth would be credited with making an excellent play.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
You have got to be kidding
you notice how he actually penetrated and drove Hermanns back…
You mean when he fell into him ?? On a different thread you stated that Haynesworth played very well in the 09 season & I completely agree but I can’t understand how you can continue to carry that over into the 2010 season. Other than the Bears game he was completely ineffective last year, often being run over or just being blocked out of the play. He was a liability on defense & I don’t see anything that has changed as far as next season
did you actually watch that play??
‘haynesworth fell into him’ really?? because it is normal for a 6’5" human being to fall 6 yards behind the line of scrimmage aka 18 feet. Haynesworth penetrated like he always did and then he tripped fell or whatever you want to call it, but for the first 3 seconds of that play he dominated. The problem was the play lasted about 8 seconds, had the Redskins had anyone else on his level then that ends up a plus play for the Skins and Haynesworth.
Go back and watch the first Eagles game when Haynesworth dominated (he was the one who penetrated and forced vick to run when he got hurt, and forced the holding penalty that changed the play from 1st and goal, to 3rd and 18). Haynesworth dominated the Lions game as well and showed really well in the Titans and Vikings game and pretty well in the Rams game.
He might have been a liability in the lockerroom but never on the field.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Last season
in the eight games that he played in, he had 13 tackles, 3 assists & 2.5 sacks. That would be a very good game for some players, it was his season & that is after signing the biggest contract ever for a defensive player. He did not play well last year. He was not de-activated out of spite or in retaliation for not being a team player. He was de-activated because his play on the field was terrible
yeah that isn't even close to being truthful
Those numbers you mentioned are pretty decent for 8 games considering most DT/ 3-4 DE’s have under 8 sacks a season and will have between 30-60 tackles (with a few exceptions). B.J. Raji who is the poster boy for a NT, did have 7 sacks, but had just 34 solo tackles (5 assists). And Raji did that in 884 snaps compared to Haynesworth’s 204 snaps. If you figure that Haynesworth would have played even 600+ snaps, he would have had more sacks, tackles and pressures than Raji. And oh yeah offenses didn’t really have anything else to worry about on defense with the singular exception of Orakpo. The Packers on the other hand had Jenkins, Pickett and Clay Matthews.
I bring up pressures because I think it is important factor to consider, because they do impact the game. Haynesworth had 10 pressures last year, despite having just 137 pass rush attempts, that means he impacted a play every 13.7 pass rushes (and it is actually higher considering sacks and QB hits), which is insane. Most 300+ lbs guys would think 1 pressure per 25 attempts would be a good ratio (for a comparison sake Ngata got one pressure every 59 attempts.
If you look at the PFF pass rush productivity stat, Haynesworth would have ranked 10th in the league last year if he had enough attempts to be eligible.
Haynesworth was benched b/c of his attitude and fights with Shanahan and def. not due to his play on the field.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't extrapolate!
If Fat Albert had played 600+ smaps, his per-snap effectiveness would have gone DOWN significantly. He did not have the conditioning to effectively play that many snaps. he would have gotten worn down and become even less efective on the field. When you only play a handfull of snaps, and only the ones you WANT to play, it’s easier to look good on a per-snap basis.
A Redskin Potato
by Mr PotatoHead on Jun 23, 2011 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
You can based his numbers from previous seasons
Haynesworth is always one of the most productive interior pass rushers (you can’t just look at sacks). Sure maybe his pressure numbers wouldn’t be that ridiculously high, but they probably would have been top 10.
Haynesworth showed in 2009 that he is conditioned to play a starting level number of snaps (contrary to what the media says). I think his low snap counts have as much to do with Shanny/Haslett refusing to acknowlege him as his whining and crying. That sword easily cuts both ways.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Jun 23, 2011 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree
Haynesworth showed in 2009 that he is conditioned to play a starting level number of snaps (contrary to what the media says). I think his low snap counts have as much to do with Shanny/Haslett refusing to acknowlege him as his whining and crying. That sword easily cuts both ways.
Your sot on with this Steveo
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
haha thanks man
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
This is BS
He did not have the conditioning to effectively play that many snaps
We don’t know this. That test he was given wasn’t easy for a 335lb man to do. It was just Shanny trying to prove his point.
I did the test, and it was hard for me, and I’m in good shape, and only 220lbs
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
This argument has gone beyond ridiculous
The world is not flat, we really did land on the moon & Albert Haynesworth looked like shit last year.
Haynesworth had 10 pressures last year, despite having just 137 pass rush attempts, that means he impacted a play every 13.7 pass rushes (and it is actually higher considering sacks and QB hits), which is insane. Most 300+ lbs guys would think 1 pressure per 25 attempts would be a good ratio (for a comparison sake Ngata got one pressure every 59 attempts.That is because Ngata was playing on RUNNING downs as well as pass plays, not cherry picking what down he was going in for like AH
Those numbers you mentioned are pretty decent for 8 games considering most DT/ 3-4 DE’s have under 8 sacks a season and will have between 30-60 tacklesSince you bring up Ngata, how many Tackles did he have last season ??
I think his low snap counts have as much to do with Shanny/HaslettDo you really think that Mike Shannahan & Jim Haslett were keeping him out of games because they didn’t like him ?? Seriously??
When you only play a handfull of snaps, and only the ones you WANT to play, it’s easier to look good on a per-snap basis.
Couldn’t have said it better myself (Thanx MPH). We are going to have to agree to disagree on this one Steve. Throw out a good rebuttal & then lets let it go
You buy into it that Haynesworth
cherry picked the only kind of played that he played in after a point in the season.
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 23, 2011 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
look on Haynesworth's running plays he was dominate as well
he was among our team leaders in stuffs despite only about 70 rushing plays.
Did he need to play more of course, but I do believe that both sides are at fault in that area. Yes I believe Shanny and Haslett did treat Albert differently. Remember how they benched him for the Colts game for not practicing because he didn’t come back from his brothers funeral in time. Yet Kemo was allowed to play week in and week out despite not being able to practice. There were obvious double standards. Haynesworth didn’t help himself with his attitude, but I’d guess that a Mike Tomlin, Bill Belicheck etc. would have found a workable solution.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 23, 2011 10:59 PM EDT up reply actions
no not really...he was one of the most dominate players last year on a per snap basis
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Now Stevo is on Haynie's tip???
Stop it, he made no diff in 2010.
@Diesel__44 on the twitter machine.
only b/c he didn't play
He was by far our most dominate lineman on a per snap basis.
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made very little diff in 2009 too...
Can’t find the HH post but it basically said that Orakpo and Carter had just as many sacks w/ AH on the field as they did w/ him “resting”.
He didn’t play in 2010 because he is a colossal piece of shit. Fuck him, I hope he chokes on a ham sandwich.
@Diesel__44 on the twitter machine.
by Diesel44 on Jun 22, 2011 7:52 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't know the post so i can't speak to the specifics
but what I can imagine is that it lumped everything together. And ignored an obvious outlier, which is the Oakland Raiders game.
Haynesworth missed 4 full games in 2009, and in the Dallas, Philly and SD game combined Carter/Orakpo totaled 1 sack. In that Oakland game they totaled 6. Now i’m not saying you take those sacks away from them, but it should be basically ignored when trying to determine the impact of Haynesworth. Had Haynesworth been there they might have each gotten another sack or two, because that is how bad that Raiders offensive line (and Russel) were. To point to their sack totals with and without Haynesworth without acknowledging that game is like trying to say McNabb is a great QB, because he threw for 400 yards against the Texans.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 11:07 PM EDT up reply actions
You should propose to Haynie now...
You’re a one man fan. He wiped his ass with the BnG and if you want to carry the flag then….that’s you’re 375lb burden.
@Diesel__44 on the twitter machine.
If you want to criticize him for being a bad teammate or person I'm not going to stop you
but this need to justify getting rid of our most talented player by saying he was awful is just wrong. I understand that a lot of it is a media construct, and also precipitated by the coaching staff, but him not producing is simply false.
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Agree with SteveO
Albert can be great – the best we have. But he has to find his role.
This part of what Tiller is saying has been true for way too long
We have been down the FA road time and time again, and it hasn’t been successful
Altho I completely agree with you about our need for a quality NT, I can’t help but think back to how many FAs we have signed who have come to DC for a fat paycheck & nothing more. Maybe those days are behind us now that Vinny “dumbass” Cerrato is no longer in charge but it does seem very reminiscent the kind of signings that he would make. Fwiw tho, I do hope that we sign Franklin & a few good interior lineman as well.
I don't think anyone can disagree with that quote.
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but here's the thing if you sign the right guys than the Redskins are perennial contenders
Signing guys like Lloyd, Archleta and Hayesworth are just stupid. Not because they aren’t necessarily the best teammates, but b/c you are asking them to be something they are not.
If we sign Franklin, and a few O-linemen then we are set, b/c these are guys we NEED
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 12:29 AM EDT up reply actions
When we signed Haynesworth we ran a 4-3
and thats what he was good at. Lloyd was brought in to be a #2, which is what he should have been. He just didn’t live up to expectations.
Arch is the only one you can put into that equasion.
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Yea Haynesworth locker room presence and attitude has been worth the money.
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He was fine, but when we give him a billion dollars I expect Pro Bowl
He wasn’t the first team all-pro I saw in Tennessee.
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i know i'm well in the minority here
but actually in 2009 he had a really good season, but he was in a 4-3 system that didn’t play to his strengths, so his sacks and pressures were down. I do think though you can make a pretty direct correlation to his presence and the 22 combined sacks of Carter and Orakpo. Also there was like an increase in tackles for a loss as well.
I think the real problem was is the media gave unrealistic expectations of him, to the point where they would focus the camera on him every time he was on the sideline. Despite the fact that guys like WIlfork, Hampton and Ngata that year played less snaps per game, yet you never heard anyone complain about them being on the sideline.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
even when we ran the 4-3 Blatche's system didn't play him to his strength
Blatche ran a read and react system, where essentially the DT stands up and holds ground at the LOS, and only if the circumstance presents itself do they penetrate.
It was a horrible system for Haynesworth and one that we should have changed.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
no I haven't seen Neild and Jenkins
but I have seen Anthony bryant quite a bit and Carriker and I know that they aren’t league average players.
So should we rely on a pair of rookie to be the solution??
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 12:34 AM EDT up reply actions
No one is saying Bryant is the sole answer
but he, Jenkins(in Nickle situations), and Neild could be a competent combo.
Don’t forget, we don’t really run a traditional 3-4 like say Pitt does. We mix up our fronts a lot, and do a lot of twists and combos.
IMO, I think we see a lot more 4-man fronts this season, with Carriker and Jenkins playing almost a shaded 3-tech, and a guy like Holliday and Kerrigan playing the 5-tech. We played This last year, but it was limited due to personell. This season, we definitly have the guys to make this work.
This is why I believe the staff targeted guys like Jenkins and Kerrigan in the draft.
Again, I can’t stress this enough, this is not a typical 3-4 defense. It’s definitly more of a hybrid scheme.
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Don’t forget, we don’t really run a traditional 3-4 like say Pitt does. We mix up our fronts a lot, and do a lot of twists and combos.
How do you know this? I have no idea what we do because we 1) don’t have a NT and 2) didn’t have the personnel to do what we wanted. You may be right, but I don’t think anyone can say definitively what Haslett’s scheme is.
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Actually, sorry for being blunt
This is what Haslett like to do:
In certain situations, he will walk up the OLB to outside shoulder of the EMOLOS. The DE will shift down so a shaded B gap look(more the 3-tech), and we’ll often walk up the safety to where the OLB was normally at. Out of this front we can create a lot of confusion, as to where a blitz is coming from, and who’s blitzing.
For example, the OLB can drop into flats, and the SS can blitz. The SS could show blitz, than bail to a cover 2.
Either way, it mixes things up a lot, and causes some confusion amongst the linemen.
Last year with LoAx, and Daniels/Holliday, we didn’t have the players to effectively run this type of look too often. I’m beting we see it a lot more this year.
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I think the amorphous variation you saw last year were more of a result of us not having the proper personnel.
I understand I can deduce things from watching the games, like you have. But what I’m arguing is that the scheme may have been drastically skewed last year due to the lack of proper personnel (NT especially), injuries, and it seems as if Haslett lacked confidence in our secondary.
The beginning of the season it looked like we were trying to establish a traditional 3-4 defense behind Kemo. Orakpo was a primary asset. The season went on and then we started these interesting exotic, amoeba variations versus Indy. Then the next week the defense had a more traditional look versus Chicago. When all the injuries set in, it seemed as if the last 4 games we were trying to get back to 3-4 basics and a more traditional approach.
Our approach clearly changes based on who we are playing (obviously). Point being here, if we signed a stud NT that could get the job done, Haslett’s 3-4 could look very different, especially with Atogwe as a safety valve and new toys like Jenkins and Kerrigan. I do agree that as long as Landry is healthy that we likely have a lot of “exotic” looks where he slips into the OLB spot.
It’s actually exciting how many defensive weapons we have on the rush, and how we could confuse and intimidate the QB. But all of this is null and void in my opinion until a quality, starting NT emerges.
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While I don't disagree that we used hybrid formations
I think that it is like Parks says, due to a lack of personnel. A perfect example is the Colts game. We started the game using a traditional 3-4, and then once Manning torched us, we started using our nickle 3-4 and only having 1 or 2 down linemen and a number of odd formations. We were letting the offense dictate the formation, instead of us imposing our will on the offense. I have to believe that Haslett coming from the Steeler style, wants to impose his will and not let the offense set the tone (at least I hope so).
Also, I really don’t see how are personnel are a fit for the hybrid scheme. Carriker is a 5-tech linemen, plain and simple. Haslett knows this better than most since he saw first hand how ineffective Carriker is on the inside in a 3 tech role in St. Louis. Kerrigan was drafted to rush the passer, be it from an OLB spot or with his hand down in a nickel package. Sure he has good run instincts but I don’t see him much in a lineup like you mentioned above. I do think Jenkins was drafted for his versatility, as he can play anywhere along the line. I think by in large though he’d get less than 100 snaps as a traditional NT (1st and 2nd down). He can get some nickel NT work, where we stay in a 3-4, and have Jarmon and Holliday (or another FA) at end (with Orakpo and Kerrigan rushing from a standup position). But really that is about it. Bryant will not be the answer in the position that we need him, and that is our 1st and 2nd down run stopper.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I disagree with both of you on the Hybrid
Actually, Haslett may be one of the better d-coordinators in the NFL at using different fronts to hide blitz packages, and confuse O-Lines. He was quoted in an article last year before the season started saying he’ll actually be using a lot of different looks. I just believe we didn’t have the players he needed to use those looks effectively.
Now, guys like Jenkins and Kerrigan definitly give us some flexability. My guess is we’ll be seeing a lot more of what I was talking about above.
Some reasons are now we actually have 2 OLB’s that were 4-3 DE’s in college. They are both comfortable playing with their hand in the dirt, and egde rushing. Also with Jenkins, you have a guy who can play NT, the 3 and 5 tech. Those guys are pretty rare.
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I'm not saying we won't see different looks
but we will need an actual NT next season, in particular for running plays. Jenkins can play some NT, but I don’t think it can be at an every down basis (particularly as a rookie). And no way Bryant and Neild can handle that role (and be at least average)
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I agree that NT is a concen
but I don’t want to see us go out and get the highest priced FA, who happens to be over 30…………been there, seen that already.
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Well big Al was under 30 when he signed
and was still productive when he was on the field. I mean you wouldn’t necessarily think it, but NT’s and big DT’s age pretty well. Esp. those without injury histories. Look at Pat Williams in MInnesota, Hampton, Seymour, Henderson, etc. are all 30+ years old. I think it would be worth the risk, b/c true NT’s are so hard to find.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
Not buying. Maybe if we went 8-8 last season, and had some sort of competent QB, and an O-Line that was good, but we have squat right now. If we needed a piece to make us contenders them I could see your point, but by the time this offensive has the ability to put up more than 10 pts per game, Franklin will be in a wheelchair.
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The Colts did a no huddle offense most of the game to prevent
defensive substitutions.
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 23, 2011 7:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Who knows what kind of 3-4 the Skins would have run if they had had the
personnel. No doubt with Haslett’s background it is more likely he would have done things differently.
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 22, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
That's my bottomline
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by Parks Smith on Jun 22, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
here's the thing
we NEED to sign free agents… we aren’t anywhere CLOSE to payroll and even less so when guys like McNabb, Hanyesworth, Kemo and Rabach are gone. So we need to seriously add money to this team. Of all the guys I’ve mentioned only Franklin is above 30 so I really don’t see an issue.
To answer your overall question I don’t see many areas as average or above on this team. I would say TE (though i’d be willing to trade Davis since we don’t use him), OLB with Orakpo and Kerrigan, plus solid depth with White and Jackson, and Safety with Otogwe and Landry with Thompson and Moore/Horton as backups are really above average on this team. I do have a lot of faith in both our WR (if we sign Moss) and our RB’s with Helu and Royster added. I don’t necessarily think we are great in either area, but above average
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 21, 2011 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
The FA we sign(and I'm sure we'll have our fair share)
need to be smart selections. Overpaying for a guy like Franklin would be a huge mistake IMO. An upgrade a G/C would certainly be welcome, as would a CB is we loose Rogers. I’m just afraid we see this team attempt to become overnight contenders again by adding a few big names, then crossing our fingers hoping they will pan out, while our biggest need, Quarterback, go un-addressed.
Until we get some offensive competency, which needs to come primarily from the draft, FA is a moot point.
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Here's the thing
While I agree that to win a SB you need a good if not great QB. But history has shown that just about any QB can lead a very good to great team to the playoffs. Rex Grossman did it with the Bears, and the Jets seem to win despite the fact that Mark Sanchez makes McNabb look like he is back in his Philly heyday. While I don’t think we can make enough moves to be a playoff team, my point is if we make the right moves this year, 2012 or 2013 (more likely) could be playoff contention years. Whether it is due to a rookie QB, some UDFA we develop, John Beck, Caleb Hanie or someone else entirely we need to have a good team in place.
We are going to have a ton of money to spend, and I agree we have to spend it wisely, which is why i want to see us invest in our most important position on defense.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm not against FA's
I’m just against older, over-paid FA’s, and I believe Franklin is one. If I had my choice, I would sign to young FA on the offensive line, maybe a CB, and a DT(I too like Branch). The rest would come in undrafted FA’s.
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unless we sign Asomugha, you only spent about half of what we have to spend
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me neither, just saying we'd still have plenty of money to spend
and it has to go somewhere.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
OK
Let it go to a couple young G’s for our offensive line, and a CB to replace Rogers when he walks. Another great option would be Poz at MLB.
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I like Poz
but he’s not as good in the 3-4 (so if he leaves Buffalo he might not be interested) and the Bills sound like they are going to make a strong push for him. What if he is off the board…
I just think that with nearly $60 million to spend it is criminal not to address our biggest defensive need. Unless you don’t see this offense being good in the next 5 years then I just don’t get it.
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He is a 3-4 LB
and the only thing you can knock him for is injury
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he's really only had half a year
in the 3-4. He was a 4-3 MLB prior to that, and even last year played both WLB and SLB with the Bills. I don’t know for sure but there have been some reports that he isn’t a huge fan of the 3-4, so that is kinda my concern.
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He's a true MLB
so I don’t see the issue. If he was a WILL, then I could see a transition problem.
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It will take this offense 3 years to be descent
in 3 years, your boy Franklin will be 35. Where is that getting us?
I’d love a NT. Just not a guy over 30, who’s looking for that last big contract to ride off into the sunset with.
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That gets us to the point where Neild and whomever else are properly developed
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It's still a waste though
Lets get a younger guy who can grow with this defense.
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How is it a waste?
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31-32 year old yet
looking for a team to give him one last good contract. Are we going to be the suckers again?
Do you really think this guy has a GOOD 3 years left? I don’t
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why not?
He has basically zero injury history, yet you are willing to sign Jammal Brown for a long term deal, despite having a HORRIBLE injury history and being awful last year. And he is only a year younger.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 23, 2011 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
you've argued with me in the past that Brown should be kept
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 24, 2011 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
at no point in time has Brown been the best option this offseason
any 1st or 2nd round rookie made more sense and the FA options are a lot better than Brown.
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even if I accepted him as a starting caliber
he is a HUGE injury risk and just one year younger than Franklin. And that I don’t understand.
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We already wasted a draft pick on him
Now we live with it, plain and simple
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but why compound your problem??
the draft pick (and it was draft position that was wasted since we got a 5th back) is a sunk cost. Why should we give him a 5-7 year deal to be a major injury risk, eat up our cap and potentially not be good.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 25, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Don't really get your logic
A 30 yr old NT gives us 3 terrific years – what’s wrong with that? We need more good players – how can you go with marginal guys just because of some long term strategy – that could easily get derailed at any point? I say – we need a good nose tackle, and they should get the best they can for a sum that does not break the bank – and I doubt any NT is goiing to break the bank.
My logic is very simple
In the past, we have overspent on aging vets, looking for that one last big contract to retire on. 80% of these guys have never lived up to expectations.
This part should be very easy to understand – We sign a guy who is 31, and is going into his 10th year in the league. How long to you honestly think his play will remain adaquate? I’ll give him two years in a Redskins uniform before we are looking to dump him.
Now, what do the Redskins always do when it come to a top FA? They load the contract up-front with guarenteed money, then give that player a modest annual contract, that is very cap friendly(Steveo just mentiuoned this in another thread). So assuming we do this to gain the edge over other team who are looking to sign Franklin………………..where did we put ourselves……yet again? We have just given 15-20mill up front for a 4 year player who is no longer in his prime, and will not be part of the team when we are actually in a mode to contend.
I don’t see why this is so hard for people to grasp. It’s the same thing we have been doing for the last decade, and it obviously hasn’t worked.
We need a NT……YES. Lets look for a younger guy who can at least grow and develop with the team as we move forward.
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I disagree with you on this one Tiller...
I can’t recall you mentioning anyone in particular to fill that role. If I recall correctly you have little to no faith in Bryant or Kemo, I am fine with taking a look at Ian Williams as well. Lets get Franklin in here to hold down the position while some of these new guys get settled in and learn their roles properly. We might even have to replace Fletcher before before Franklin is done and we need to get our young ILB’s ready, that’s not going to happen if we are piss poor at the NT position. As far as the contract goes, yes, we are all sore after ten years of abuse at the hands of the former regime. If there is one thing I trust Allen to do is manage the contracts and cap space in way that will actually be beneficial to us, thats why we brought him in.
by MagicHat on Jun 24, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Tiller you make exception to this rule you are laying out all the time
We all do, it’s just an excuse when someone mentions a player you don’t want.
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by Parks Smith on Jun 24, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Read please...
We all do
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I have nothing against Franklin
I just see us going a different direction, and would rather us use a younger player.
Last year was a lot different. It was year 1 of the Shanny’s. We signed what I thought was a competent QB, who had a history of success. We paired a rookie LT with a veteran RT who people thought was going to make our line a lot better. We had Hicks, who was supposed to be an up-grade at G.
No one knew the Haynesworth debacle was going to turn out like it did. We had a competent RB in Portis. We signed what we thought would be a competent NT in Kemo.
This obviously all blew up in our face. The coaches realized this model was no longer going to work. The team needed to be re-built. We all though we were going to be a lot better than our record last year.
Reality is in re-building, and that re-building is now. I was always one who felt we were not that far away from being a contender, so that why I advocated some of the free agent signings we had in the past. I was viewing everything through Rose colored glasses.
I no longer see us in that situation.
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You’re comparing Kemo to Franklin, which isn’t even close.
The plan was for Fat Al to play NT and Kemo to rotate.
It’s very easily conceivable. that they would venture to sign a NT
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The plan was for Fat Albert to be a DE
and a rotational NT in Nickle.
I remember some people on HH being very happy when we signed Kemo, saying he could be the type of player we need at NT, and could be a difference maker on our D
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not at first
and even when camp started they said they wanted Big Al at NT primarily, and playing some end. It was only then that Shanny began to relent, but of course not having a real NT was a big part of the issue. Even during the season Haynesworth played probably 70% of his snaps at either NT or 4-3 tackle
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 24, 2011 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
not at first my friend
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but see that was the perception last year
not the reality. If you looked at last offseason objectively it tells a different story:
we maybe slightly upgraded at QB (McNabb’s 2009 numbers were just slightly better than Campbell’s and that was will all the Eagles weapons and playbook).
RB: we hoped for a healthy Portis, but really our depth was awful…Larry Johnson and WIllie Parker ugh.
WR: No real upgrades, a 7th rounder who should have been UDFA, a UDFA who was a return man, and Joey Galloway. Thank god Armstrong did something b/c otherwise it would have been ugly.
O-line: We got Trent, and took a shot on Brown (which at the time I was fine with), but we basically sacked our best lineman in Dockery and prayed that Rabach would be good. Hicks was maybe an upgrade over some backups, but he wasn’t a real option.
Defense:
We moved Carter, Haynesworth, Golston, Alexander, Jarmon and McIntosh from their natural positions and put them in areas where they would struggle succeeding. On top of that our only external additions were Holliday, Carriker, Kemo,and Buchanon (I don’t count Riley since he only cracked the lineup for 8 plays). That isn’t exactly a winning solution. The Texans showed exactly what you are supposed to do when you make the scheme change, but just stockpiling defensive talent that actually fit their system.
The difference here is we are signing a guy without an injury history, no real attitude problems and who is actually a fit for our system. Last year they tried to go cheap and it cost them. Now they have to make the right moves.
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Come on man
You know as well as I, that everyone in Redskins Nation expected a huge increase in productivity with McNabb at QB.
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haha i know i was almost exiled from the nation last year for disagreeing with that view point
I didn’t mind fans believing that, but why our coaches and media did is beyond me
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umm up until the Atogwe deal the Redskins never put in upfront money in their deals and that is always the probablem
there might be big upfront signing bonuses, but those were pro-rated over the course of the deal. The Redskins ALWAYS put the majority of the money at the end of the deal which is why we constantly were in Cap hell and had to restructure 10 contracts (then making them issues down the line).
Last year we gave big bonuses to Big Al and Hall, but that was due to the uncapped year, and that’s it. This would be paying a guy a couple extra million in the first two years, so the rest of his contract was more cap friendly and we could continue to add pieces down the road.
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Cap friendly contracts included signing bonuses
that did not count against the cap. It’s been that way for years.
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signing bonuses always count against the cap it is just prorated
what I"m talking about is what we did with Atogwe and that is actually give up front money. We Gave Atogwe a roster bonus that bumps up his first year salary to $8 million (with workout bonus ect.) and keeps the rest of his deal lower. I want to see more of that in what is a rebuilding year.
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You know more about the cap than me
but I’m almost sure the signing bonuses we gave out(say, over the last 5 years) to some high priced guys, didn’t count against our cap.
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up until last year everything counted against the cap
the way it would work is if you had a $10 million signing bonus and a 5 year deal, you’d get that $10 million up front (or maybe two installments) but only $2 million would count. As we got closer to that uncapped year, you had more and more teams trying to divert money to that year, so signing bonuses kinda went out the window (there was some more technical reasons as well) .
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Double check that
We were always able to get around the cap with signing bonuses(ie. The re-structuring of the Arrington and Samuels contracts)
Guaranteed money and signing bonuses are two different things. I hope you didn’t misunderstand what I meant by those two.
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Yes what we would do in the past is turn salary into signing bonuses
so if Samuels was to get $8 million, we’d turn $6-7 million of that into a signing bonus, so it would be prorated over the course of the deal. So his cap figure for that year went down, but it just pushed money into future years.
I’m talking about doing the exact opposite. Say we sign a Marshall Yanda for a 5 year $35 million deal. Instead of doing a signing bonus and pushing cap charges to later years when we might actually be competing. Front load that deal and guarantee the first two years of the deal at $9 million a piece. Yanda gets his guaranteed $18 million, and the Redskins owe him less in the final 3 years of the deal.
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I don't think up-front signing bonuses
can be pro-rated. Thats the point of giving them up front.
Find me info saying otherwise.
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here is a primer if you go down to 1.7e
also i just did a new FA post so feel free to take this discussion there
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We should also start a new thread
this ones getting jumbled.
Maybe we can do just a “Free Agent Discussion” thread.
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The problem with that
Is that you have given away the advantage the FO has over players. By front loading & guaranteeing the deal there is very little incentive for years 2,3 & 4.
teams do it all the time, in all sports
I’ve yet to hear a case of a player not playing up to par, because he already got more money. Yes there are guys who play for contracts, but them not performing comes up regardless of whether you pay him the majority upfront or later in the deal.
Signing bonuses already give players a huge chunk of change upfront, so i don’t see a difference.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 25, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Football is different from any other sport
By paying him a large contract up front & then having the last three years be relatively small you lose the threat of releasing or cutting players who don’t perform which is why most contracts are back loaded as an incentive to contine playing at a high level. I agree with your reasoning for players who are “high character” such as London Fletcher but in many other instances, losing the power to terminate a contract means less work & effort on the players part such as Clinton Portis
disagree
For one thing we aren’t talking about paying a guy $25 million of a $35 million deal in year one and then just $2.5 for the next four years. We’d be talking about $9-10 million in year one and $9-10 million in year 2. Even figuring the max of $20 million in the first two years, that is $5 million for each of the last 3 years. I don’t know many players who wouldn’t want to make that (or have their contracts structured like that).
Think of it this way, you would have contracts like that structured in the past where $10 million came in a signing bonus, with salaries of $1.5, 2, and 2.5 in the first three years. With the last 2 years a player set to make $9 and then $10 million. After that year one what is the incentive for the player to play. He’s only going to make $4.5 million over the next two years, and he has zero shot of seeing the final two years of that deal, since it would be $19 million in real money and $23 million in cap money.
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my mistake then
For one thing we aren’t talking about paying a guy $25 million of a $35 million deal in year one and then just $2.5 for the next four years.
I thought this was exactly the kind of deal that you were proposing.
Will it really?
I mean I know a lot will need to go right, but if they focus this FA on grabbing a few linemen and get a QB next year, it could be sooner.
Of course its not a guarantee, but not having a NT will permanently keep us down. And will have to be addressed as some point.
There really isn’t a younger option in FA, and Franklin can still be effective in his mid-late 30’s. He might not be a top NT in 3 more years (but neither will Bryant or Neild).
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We really don't know what to expect of Neild
so that un fair to assume at this point.
And yes, I believe it will be at least 3 more years until we see a quality product on the field. We may get lucky, and catch a break here and there to become a 9-7 team, but I’m looking for us to be an annual contender. To get there, we need a good, young O-Line, a proven WR corps with playmaking ability, a competent running back(s), and most importantly, a QB who can last more than 4 years in the new system.
Then, maybe we can use our defensive talent to put together a team we fans will be proud to call OURS.
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The only thing going for Neild is that his WVa was a
top notch run defense team and he was in the middle of it (3-5-3). If the idea in that defense was for Neild to occupy blockers, then lack of big stat numbers is justified. I’m not too sure about a 3-5-3 defense, but a schematic is shown for it at http://www.football-defense.com/creating-fronts-in-the-3-5-3-defense/. " One of the great advantages of the 3-5-3 Defense is the ability to ‘create’ nearly any defensive front, while showing the same look pre-snap every play. The myth that the 3-5 is not a good run defense is wrong, because you can turn it into any defense that you want." The NT in the diagram slants to one side while aligning over the center before the snap. This experience may not prepare Neild particularly for the Skins hybrid 3-4.
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 23, 2011 6:33 PM EDT up reply actions
The 3-3-5 stack as they call it
was designed to defend against the spread offense, by having 5 DB’s on the field all the time, but 2 of the DB’s are also considered OLB’s. You’ll sometimes see them referred to as a “Chief” and a “Bandit”. One tends to have the traits of a SS(yet he playes in the box), and the other has the traits of an OLB. The 3 middle LB’s are still considered like the traditional 4-3 LB’s(Sam, Mike and Will). There is usually a Ranger, who is the FS, and you almost always see a single high safety look pre-snap.
It’s very decieving for an offense, because in a single high safety look, QB’s often confuse it for man defense, although 80% of the time the CB’s bail into cover 3, leaving the bandit and chief covering the flats. MLB has seam responsibility to whichever side the QB opens to, and the two OLB’s have hook/curl on their respective sides.
You can see why this defense is tough against the spread and the short passes, yet it can be easily burnt against play-action and the 7, 8 and 9 routes.
It is traditionally strong against the run because you always have 8 men in the box, with the FS, and CB’s being the only men out of the box.
The D-Linemen do not play a traditional 3 front. They are usually shaded strong side(TE side), with the 3 LB’s stacked off their outside leg. The D-Linemen’s #1 goal is gap control(which as you know, usually results in a Double Team somewhere up front, so the NT, and DE’s have to be good at taking on blocks, and controlling gaps.
You see a lot of cover 3 in this type of defense(which IMO, is the defense I hate the most).
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I'm not saying he doesn't have a chance, but those 7th rounders that make it
usually take a couple of years. So yeah for the next few years I think at best we have a rotational player.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 23, 2011 11:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And that is good
We have that guy who can grow with the team, while we improve on other areas of need.
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You make it sound like...
If we get Franklin then we’re not allowed to sign any other players. We’re going to have a shit ton of money to spend this year, and we most likely will HAVE to spend it.
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by Parks Smith on Jun 24, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
okay but again what is the alternative
to think that Neild and Bryant are the solution even for this year is more delusional than Beck/Grossman/UDFA at QB. And J. Jenkins isn’t the answer either, and if they did go down that route then DE has a huge hole.
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Maybe we don't have an all-pro at NT this year
Maybe we GROOM someone for the future
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okay but that isn't these guys
Neild can’t play ever down, and Bryant well probably couldn’t be a backup on most teams. We need an upgrade.
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It seems so simple
we badly need a good nose tackle, there are several available, and we easily have the resources to get one. A really good NT could turn a #20 defense into a number 10. If Allen lets all the good ones slip away, he deserves a kick in the you-know-what.
If Franklin was such a good NT
Why is San Fran willing to let him walk?
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Flawed logic...
If Sidney Rice is such a good WR then why is Minny letting him walk?
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WR's a a dine-a-dozen right?
NT are hard to come by.
Flawed logic on your part comparing the two positions
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Yea that's why teams let guys like Andre Johnson walk all the time, o wait...
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Go look at the FA pool
Many more good WR’s avaliable than NT’s
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I don't see how that is helping your case
for one thing their is an inequality as not every team uses a traditional NT, where every team uses at least 2 WR’s.
Secondly, why would you pay more for a player at a position where you have yourself said is in strong supply.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 25, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I didn't say their all GOOD
And if there was a YOUNG NT avaliable, I’d be all over him
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If we run Chris Neild out there ever play, we will probably be one of the 3 worst defenses in the league and very likely you will kill any chance of him developing
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Its' never good when the boxes get this small
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Neild, Bryant and Jenkins
can man the rotation. If another undrafted guy is signed, he can fill in too.
This team isn’t going to contender overnight.
And since you bring up our QB situation, people seem fine with Beck and Rex. Thats even worse than having Bryant, Neild and Jenkins at NT
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haha i disagree
At least Beck has some potential, and Rex showed that he can manage a team. While it was only 3 games were weren’t really that much worse with Rex than McNabb last year.
Bryant has never in his career shown to be anything more than the final DT to make the roster. He’s usually inactive when he makes a team, and has never shown for more than a game at a time. Neild is a 7th round rookie, who’s upside is limited (even the best projections have him as a solid player). And Jenkins needs to add strength to be a NT, and putting him in that role means our DE position is significantly weaker.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 24, 2011 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
haha, now this is a good one
At least Beck has some potential
Bryant has never in his career shown to be anything more than the final DT to make the roster
If I’m not mistaken, isn’t it Beck who has failed to see the field in a meaningful game(and failed even to break 3rd string status), since he rookie year in Miami?
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Beck at least has the pedigree
there is also a pretty good track record for QB’s developing at this stage in their career. Usually NT’s don’t go from being cut year in year out to starting material.
With Beck at least we have the chance (and he has leadership, work ethic, etc.) Bryant is like a 1 in a trillion shot of being more than a backup.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Neild - Yes, that's what the scouting reports
suggested, and why teams were able to pass on him 200 times. Not to say I’m against him – he could develop well – but for now he is a late round rookie, and the odds are against him.
He doesn't have to be the ONLY answer
just part of the equasion. I’ve already suggested how a 3-man NT rotation could work out. We already know the staff plans to use Jenkins at NT in certain situations, and we know that he likes, and feels comfortable playing NT.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
$7-8 million per year is not too much for Franklin because NT like him are hard
to find. Also a guy like Fletcher is not cheap and he came to the Skins as a FA.
Many other Redskins were reasonable FA: Phillip Daniels, Cornelius Griffin, Shawn Springs, and Marcus Washington. Other FA/trades have been productive: Clinton Portis, Mark Brunell, and DeAngelo Hall.
Fitzgerald article on Redskins’ FA:
http://www.redskins.com/news-and-events/article-1/Redskins-Usually-Aggressive-In-Free-Agency/A07DDD31-34D8-4250-A10E-E8C5A7341F89
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 23, 2011 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
$7-8 million...not too much
Agree – we can afford it. Money well spent.
Imagine trying to run the ball against Franklin, Haynesworth and Carriker (or Jenkins/Jarmon/Holliday) and our LBs and DBs?
Don't fall into the trap brother
It’s gonna take time………….. a whole lot of prescious time………(imagine me singing)to do it…….to do it……..to do it………to do it………to do it…….to do it RIGHT!
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Carriker was replacement level last year
after years of doing nothing.
He’s replacement level until he shows otherwise
"By far the worst performers on the (Redskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
+1
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 22, 2011 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Great point Steveo
you HAVE to start with the front of the D…the added pressure on the quarterback alone will increase the CB’s chances of making and/or stopping plays. While I think we definitely need an upgrade over Barnes being the starting corner, I’d rather spend the money on the front 3. A cheaper route than asomugha might be to go with Josh Wilson. I think he’s ahead of Barnes in talent and potential. The added savings could be used to beef up the line.
thanks!
Yeah Wilson is my primary target as well…fix the front 7 first and the DB woes will fix themselves
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Not mutually exclusive
They can sign BOTH a NT and a CB ya know. It’s not an either-or situation, especially if they don’t break the bank at either position. If they don’t overpay for one “superstar” guy, the Redskins have enough salary cap space to sign a few highly respectable free agents. O-line, NT, CB, and ILB are all areas in need of upgrade. With smart signings, the Redskins SHOULD be able to improve in at least three of those areas.
A Redskin Potato
by Mr PotatoHead on Jun 20, 2011 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, almost completely.....
I think that if we bring in someone like Franklin at NT and a decent cover corner we will be OK. I think it might be the best decision for us to see what Riley and the Lorax can do at ILB.
I get a little angrier every time you call him Lorax...
LoAx
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I think it is fine it is a reminder that the Redskins are as screwed up as a Dr. Seuss book
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
yes but they can't sign asomugha or Joseph if they want to get an upgrade at NT
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Not going to get Asomugha or Joseph anyway.
The Bengals are going to franchise tag Joseph.
Asomugha will want to go somewhere he can be on a winner right away.
’Skins will be smart and sign a few solid 2nd tier guys to fill multiple holes.
A Redskin Potato
by Mr PotatoHead on Jun 20, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
ummm... The deadline to franchise tag was 4 or 5 months ago.
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in fairness the Bengals probably still think they can Franchise tag him so i'm sure that is where the story is coming from
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valid point, haha
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no you were right...he very well could be starting for the Colts this year
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 19, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He started in the post season for them and did great
Yet another offseason......another few months for the Skins to "shine".
Football Outsiders ranked him as "one to watch" going into the 2009 season
a year later we trade him away for almost nothing
"By far the worst performers on the (Redskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I don't think it is a position that can be ignored
but I also don’t see it as a top priority.
The worst thing the Redskins can do is too bust their budget on Asomugha or Joesph. Sure they are great players, but secondary isn’t as important as fixing our front 7. And while Kerrigan and Jenkins were a good start, the Skins need a lot more help.
the Redskins have already invested a ton in the secondary so getting more of a 2nd tier CB should be enough, fixing the line is far more important, and needs to be addressed first.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
yes but our D-line worries will keep us as just an average defense
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Our D-Line was addressed in the draft
and should also be addressed in FA
FWIW, our D is not going to be the prob this year
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
yeah but the Redskins already added a DB in FA
They drafted one guy along their line, when they still need upgrades at the other two spots.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Jun 19, 2011 10:34 PM EDT up reply actions
And that DB will help out more than we will imagine
OJ’s presence will help all over the defense. I do agree that we need a few FA’s along the DL, and guys like Branch are guys I’m fine with. I just don’t want to see us break the bank for the big name guys who may become fat and happy, and never again play up to expectations.
If a new CBA is reached, and we go back to 4 years of service to become a FA, there are quite a few young player who could help improve our D. Poz would be a top proirity IMO.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
you could sign an FA at any position that might not workout as you expect
Sure Atogwe is a great addition, but we could go out and sign Asomugha and Joseph, and it wouldn’t help our defense as much as signing Franklin and Branch.
I don’t care how amazing your CB’s are, unless your defense can stop the run and generate a pass rush you will lose. Even a real non-pass rushing Franklin will help make the pass defense more effective.
First off his presence on early downs slowing the run, will lead to more 2nd and 3rd and long passing attempts. Also, despite not being a pass rusher you better believe he’ll push that pocket more than a guy like Bryant. He might not get actual sacks or even pressures, but he will ensure that the QB can’t step up too much.
I know the counter argument is well D-line men (like Franklin etc.) will only play 60-80% of the snaps, but CB’s have virtually zero impact on the running game meaning for 40%+ of the snaps they are basically an empty uniform out there.
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 20, 2011 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Wait,
didn’t you just suggest signing Cromartie? He sounds alot like a big-name guy that will break the bank.
by CarverM on Jun 20, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
His value has probably gone down a little, just b/c he's a moron and a cancer.
But he’s also dumb enough to demand big money.
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by Parks Smith on Jun 20, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
Couldn't agree more...
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by Parks Smith on Jun 20, 2011 10:48 AM EDT up reply actions
the offense is still the bigger need I agree, but this defense will be an issue if they don't add at least one more front 3 guy
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 19, 2011 10:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Carriker, Jarmon, Jenkins, Neild, Bryant, and Holliday would be a nice rotation. Maybe we up-grade a guy like Holliday with a FA, but I don’t see us carrying more than 7 DL on the active roster. Plus, we still don’t know whats going on with Haynesworth.
I’m a little more worried about the LB’s and another CB right now(as I don’t see Rogers being a Redskin anymore).
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Really? That's a terrible sounding rotation...
Compare that to every other 3-4 team in the league and tell me it doesn’t make you want to vomit just a little bit.
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Agree with Parks - that lineup wouldn't scare anyone
All question marks, journeymen, over the hill, rookies. Carriker would undoubtedly be the anchor, and there is a difference of opinion on him. We need a top NT, and could really use Haynesworth, if he shaped up – some real badass guys.
of the guys you mention only Jenkins is close to the point of being above-average or better
Jarmon would still have the potential to breakout, but lets be honest this defense isn’t exactly his strong suit.
You mention 6 guys, and at least half of them couldn’t even make the 7 or 8 man defensive lines of the majority of 3-4 defenses out there. That doesn’t exactly bode well for the Redskins chances. If we keep Haynesworth that changes the dynamic, but still that would be only one ‘sure-thing’ along the line, and you’d hope to have at least 2 (and for the best 3-4 defenses they rotate 5 or 6 above average or better players). And frankly we can’t count on Haynesworth. Even if they do keep him, will shanny and him be able to get along well enough that he is willing to give 50% effort?
I agree by ILB and CB are concerns, but you have to build the line first. Otherwise it simply won’t matter. We already have 3/4 of our DB’s and LB’s who should be well above average, so even if we get average production out of those positions we should be fine. Plus the added talent upfront well help both the LB’s and Secondary more than adding another great CB or ILB.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
What can I say
i’m all about youth, and finally developing our own players
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
no, no.
I meant this part:
“Carriker, Jarmon, Jenkins, Neild, Bryant, and Holliday would be a nice rotation.”
by TheDeepBall on Jun 20, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
If you can't tell
I’m against signing too many FA’s, especially since we just drafted 2 D-Linemen and an OLB.
I guess I’m just fed up with the FA experiment backfiring. At this point, I’d rather loose with our own players, than with someone elses
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Cromartie... locker room concerns say HELLO...not to mention baby momma drama
If you think for a minute that Shanahan would bring a moron like Cro in his locker room then I’ll have what you’re having.
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Need at least one FA CB.
I have the feeling that Rogers is going to feel “dissed” if we don’t immediately offer him a top-dollar contract. I suspect that no one will offer him what he thinks he deserves, but he will go someplace else even if the Skins match his best offer. If he goes, then the skins will need to sign sombody to fill out the CB squad, even if the Skins feel that Barnes is starter material.
Asomugha will likely cost more than the Skins should spend, and also probably wants to go to a team where he feels like he has a chance to win right away. The current speculation is that the Bengals are going to franchise tag Joesph, so that would pretty much put him out of the picture.
I think the Skins would be well served to add one of the many second-tier CBs that will be on the market this year.
A Redskin Potato
Carlos or a good second tier CB
I just hope Carlos is sensible. They could gun for a good second tier guy and still wait for Carlos to drop back into their range, since they really need two. If they can’t get a second guy, keep Buchanan. There’s a big difference of opinion on Barnes. I think we still need a good NT. Even if Bryant has a good year, they could use another. Money is still a factor – they shouldn’t give $20 million to anybody.
exactly but he wants top tier money
We have too many other needs to pay Carlos top tier $.
I agree that NT should really be a top priority and I’d like to see us get someone young because NTs take a lot of punishment.
agree on Carlos....
but I think as far as acquiring someone for the position CB is just about as important as NT. The difference is I don’t think we need to go out and pay top dollar for a top CB, just a solid cover corner with a little bit of NFL experience. As far as NT goes, go after the best you can get, both to solidify the line and to mentor Neild, so he can be ready to get into the rotation asap.
barnes may be ready to step up but
in a nickel corner role i dont feel he is ready dor the starting corner role.if he is the starter then who is the slot byron westbrook ,i dont think so.i agree dont go after namdi even though unlike fat albert he is worth the money,but i have said all along that the skins will make smart and cost effective acquisitions,so i believe they will target guys like richard marshal of carolina,ike taylor,and possibley jonathan joseph who wont cost as much as namdi.i would also re-sign phillip buchanan who played decent for the most part and wont be very expensive,plus he already has knowledge of the defense,so if barnes does not turn out to be quite ready to step up you have a proven vet to step in. cb can also be adressed with udfa’s such as kendrick burney and the supplemental draft with a player like janoris jenkins out florida if he decides to make himself eligable.and eric wright might also be a cheaper option to bring in via free agency.
I don't think he should start, but he should be given the nickle corner job (or at least it is his to lose)
overall though I agree it is a secondary need (honestly that was a good pun, and i typically don’t like puns)
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by Steve Shoup on Jun 20, 2011 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
agree with Steveo on both points there....
not comfortable with him as a starter and nicely done on the title.
you mean, do we HOPE he's a young stud waiting to break out?
um, yes, we do.
"By far the worst performers on the (Redskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Oh!
I forgot to add to his stats…1 Forced Vomit
by iH8dallas on Jun 20, 2011 4:35 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Yay for puns!
Rogers is still an excellent cover man, and ‘covered’ DHall’s shortcomings…and when you consider DHall had the same number of interceptions when you take away the Jay Cutler game, and we may not be as a solid without Rogers as you’re suggesting. A facile comment, but we can get into more if need be…
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jun 22, 2011 3:19 PM EDT reply actions



























