Who's Running the Redskins Offense?
by Parks Smith on Jun 1, 2011 9:40 AM EDT
in Redskins Analysis
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PrintSadly enough, as a Redskins fan it's easy to get caught up in the John Beck hype. Most of us are homers and are quick to blindly endorse Beck, and Beck himself has made it easier for us by saying and doing all the right things this offseason. Sure, Beck is a hard worker and articulate person, but why are we so quick to hand over the reigns to a guy who was traded for Doug Dutch last year, basically the NFL equivalent of a bag of practice balls (Sorry Doug)? Why aren't we questioning this more? And why aren't we more worried?
I was reading a piece yesterday by Pete Prisco of CBS Sports, the article centered around the possible decision to start Beck, but made me question more the way this staff is put together and more specifically how present nepotism is.
Credit that one to the Shanahan family -- son, Kyle, is the team's offensive coordinator. Inside the team's building, there are plenty who wonder why McNabb won't be around to be the starter.
"I'll tell you why," one source said. "The son doesn't like him."
So we sit here and talk about what QBs Shanny wants and who fits his system, but this is looking more and more like it's Kyle's system. I think if Kyle wasn't around then all the McNabb BS wouldn't have happened (could be a stretch). I also think it's clear since Day 1 that Shanny is just grooming a team that will probably be a 35th birthday present for Kyle when Big Shanny hangs it up.
But let's say this is Kyle's offense, then why would he go with John Beck when he has been tied to Rex Grossman for over two years now? And as one NFC coach put:
"If they thought so highly of him, why didn't they play him late last year when they benched McNabb?"
Man, I'm really hoping this season brings some stability in more ways than one.
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I'm split here
On one hand….the Redskins are paying Mike to be the HC not just a project manager. On the other, if there was an under the table agreement that Kyle would take over, I want him to get as much practice as possible.
They did add some stability last year, hopefully that continues. Remember, it takes time to fix what Vinny spent years destroying
by Hustler of Culture on Jun 1, 2011 9:51 AM EDT reply actions
Shanny
As Mark Schlereth said, nothing happens on the field that hasn’t gone over Mike’s desk first. Whatever gameplan Kyle puts together, Shanny applies all his tweaks and changes. They put together the first few drives and Kyle runs it.
Second half is anyone’s guess.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein talking about Parks Smith.
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That's how I felt, especially after seeing Shanny mic'd up on NFL films.
But I feel as if that is slowly shifting. I’m sure everything goes across Mike’s desk, but does he trust Kyle and give him creative freedom. I think benching McNabb was 99% Kyle, and it may have been just to appease Kyle. Kind of like Shanny saying, “fine we’ll do it your way” and I hope if it doesn’t work then its not an “I told you so” moment. Nepotism is scary especially at this high a level of football.
And does anyone else think that a 31 year old kid running your offense is pretty damn scary!?!?! How much cred does he have in the locker room? Where is Gary Kubiak when you need him?
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I wouldn’t be surprised if Mike Shanahan had a hand in running Houston’s offense in 2009.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein talking about Parks Smith.
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by Kevin Ewoldt on Jun 1, 2011 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree
Mike Shannahan has too big of an ego to be a lame duck coach. I think Kyle probably has more input than any other O.C. has in Shanny’s time, but I think Mike has the final say.
Also, can anyone blame Kyle for not getting along with McNabb, when McNabb never showed him any respect?? Remember that Chicago game when McNabb threw that awful pick 6 and Kyle went to go talk to him, and you could see Donovan yelling at him and walking away? That right there showed trouble in paradise, and that this was an untenable relationship.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Kyle
I’m pretty sure they are both running the offense equally. If there is one thing we can’t question, it’s Mike Shanahan’s control of the running game. But how much does he control? I look back at the Tampa Bay game, when Torain looked like he could go for 300 in the first half, then in the 2nd half…run game gone.
I remember everyone at the bar screaming, “WTF!!! Run the God D*#n ball!”
I’m pretty sure it was Kyle who wanted to pass more in that game, but i don’t have a headset so I don’t know.
Yep
I think that’s exactly what happened. The script ended, and kyle put together crappy series after crappy series. We aren’t the texans, and we don’t have Matt / Andre.
That game was extremely frustrating to watch because of the totally abandonment of what was working for us. It wasn’t broken, so they shot it.
The Beat Box aka skins secondary.
The longer the lockout, the more likely McNabb will be back. MS can get practical real quick.
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 1, 2011 10:32 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Let's Hope
that John Beck is some kind of secret weapon the Redskins have. I’m hoping that because of the sketchy QB situation, we run the ball A LOT this season.
A heavy dose of Torain and Helu is just what the doctor ordered.
I think it's a combination of both. And there were quite a few games last year
That were so Jekyll and Hyde that it was the only explanation. Someone above mentioned the Tampa Bay game; that was probably the strangest yet most telling about who’s running the offense. I think it was obviously Mike Shanahan first half, Kyle Shanahan second half.
And I also believe that there is some kind of understanding that Kyle will be running the show as a head coach and that Mike Shanahan may become vice president/general manager at that time.
Of course, that seemingly was supposed to happen when Gibbs retired-so we already have one instance of ownership screwing that up. (Although I hope that was 90% vinney)
I think this could have worked out fine in the Joe Gibbs/Greg Williams scenario, although I’m very scared of Kyle Shanahan even being a full time offensive coordinator much less a head coach in three years. I think the younger Shanahan has been brought up in a bubble and might have some kind of "I know more than you" syndrome.
One thing is for sure, the offense certainly was worse than the defense. The defense started to gel at the end of the season-the offense completely fell apart.
Parks-you need to put "both" as an option in the poll, cause right now, it’s just a choice between the lesser of two evils.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
Instead of Both would "No balls" or "vagina" work?
I don’t think the plan was to ever make Gibbs VP of anything, maybe a ceremonial post at best. I don’t think Gibbs had the energy to run a NFL franchise and his NASCAR team, and he clearly has more invested in JGR than the Skins.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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I never said that Jim's was going to go into the front office after he retired
I said that I thought Mike Shanahan would. I never really understood why kids came back other than to try to stop the bleeding of a once proud franchise.
Low blow (pun intended) on the "no balls" option. I don’t think I’m the only one who thinks this might be the case and if forced to choose between Mike or Kyle I would have to go on a game by game basis, or in some instances half by half. It’s so obvious when were running Kyle’s playbook-pass 26 times or more, and only run to appease the fans.
Look what happened in Houston after Kyle left, a running game exploded onto the scene seemingly out of nowhere.
Kyle’s response "I knew we had a great player sitting there" the question becomes, "well smart ass, why didn’t you use him?"
Mike loves the play action pass and bootlegs, if you were to look at Kyle’s own playbook, I bet you would find no such plays in there at all.
So tell me-who do you think runs the offense?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 1, 2011 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Jim's equals Joe Gibbs…WTF? Do I have to relearn this damn program again?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 1, 2011 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I don't understand why people think there is a clear difference between Mike and Kyles playbook.
And the trends that they like to follow, there is no evidence of this. No one knows what Kyle’s offense is b/c he’s never been handed the reigns to any offense fully. Big Shanny offense = Kubiaks = Lil Shanny, they are all the same principles.
Look what happened in Houston after Kyle left, a running game exploded onto the scene seemingly out of nowhere.
Kubiak was running the offense when Kyle was OC, this is more a personnel situation rather than a scheme situation.
I just don’t know how someone can sit here and tell me what Kyle likes and what he does or doesn’t have in his playbook. It’s Mike Shanahan’s playbook and everything Kyle has ever learned was under the tutelage of Shanny, Kubiak, and Gruden.
I don’t think sitting here and saying that we flip-flopped/playcallers in the TB game is fair either. Weather played a role in that game more than any other.
And… umm… you did say that the plan was for Gibbs to go into the FO.
Moral of the story is, I hear people talking about Kyle’s offense. Can anyone tell me what Kyle’s offense is? Because I have no f’n clue! Houston scheme was developed by Kubiak and centered around Andre Johnson, you know the best WR on the planet, so I don’t think its fair to say that Kyle just abandons play-action and bootlegs just b/c they aired it out in Houston. It seems to me that the TB was the one outlier in terms of opening game plans, and that was due to the weather, not Mike vs. Kyle. I think Kyle calls the plays and Mike vetoes anything if needed.
Playbooks are amorphous blogs and Mike’s has morphed over the years. You can sit back and say that Shanahan is a run heavy guy by point to Terrell Davis and others, but look at as the years went on and how the Broncos passing game progressed, they had the 3rd best passing offense his last year in Denver, Mike adapted, he knows its a passing league now.
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You're right, through a poor choice of words I did imply that Joe might have moved to the front office
You’re also right that playbooks are amorphous creatures. And there have been some coaches that do progress with the times-Joe Gibbs, Mike Shanahan, and Tom Coughlin are good examples I believe.
But I still contend that there are OCs out there that will stick to something no matter what-see Andy Reid. I would also throw out the names Dan Reeves and Turner.
I think you can make the argument either way about Kyle being pass happy-it is my opinion though, that he is way to pass happy.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 1, 2011 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions
agreed I think they are essentially the same offense, they just adapted to players differently
When Mike had Elway and Plummer they did more rollouts, throws on the move etc. Also Mike Shannahan controlled the draft and put a premium on RB’s. But in the years where the running game didn’t work, he adapted. He also changed his approach with Cutler who wasn’t nearly as fleet-footed.
Kyle on the other hand had an extremely good young QB in Schaub in excels more in the pocket. Also he had one of the best WR’s in the game and a very good TE, passing made more sense. Obviously they wanted to run and when Foster emerged this year they did so.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Kyle has a long way to go
That guy needs to win something before he is ever put in a head coaching role. The HC has so many different things to manage/run that kyle would get chewed up and spit out if he gets promoted too early.
I hope Mike sticks with us for awhile. The prospect of kyle as head coach terrifies me more than hiring wade phillips as HC. Okay maybe not…but it’s still scary.
The Beat Box aka skins secondary.
I totally agree
And I already think he’s been prematurely promoted to OC.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 1, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
All right, you win. I voted for Mike
But only because I sure as hell hope it’s not Kyle.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 1, 2011 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions
History
Mike has a history of running a prolific offense. The short time that Kyle was in Houston, the offense was also very good. So I think this is less of a “problem” than we might think. I think it’s about just finding the balance that works best for the team.
We drafted two RBs and 3 WRs, so we will have youth and speed and both positions. Let’s just sit back and see what they can do.
Personally I’m very excited about Helu and Hankerson.
There are still plenty of pieces missing
Like 80% of the O line and a QB.. but if we can get the best out of Mikes history of solid running offenses and Kyles more pass happy offense in Houston it could work great.
One simple fact (or opinion)
is that Mike is an offensive genius, and Kyle (as far as we know) is not. Meanwhile, running an offense is more “art” than “science”, so it’s better to have one unchallenged brain leading it. Running an offense with two people, especially father and son, is bound to be a little dicey. But it can work, so we’ll just have to wait and see.
I'm sure the majority of head coaches have some level of input on the playcalling
In most cases the blame is put on the head coach for the coordinators failures so its only natural for them to want some input.
Yes, I meant to say that head coaches are always going to have some input - they have to
so it’s a matter of how they do it. One good way might be to be like a supervisor/manager. The OC devises and runs the offense, but the boss oversees how he does it. There are probably a lot of ways the HC/OC relationship can work. The Shanahans may be fine. I consider Mike a true offensive genius, so I normally would have hoped that he, as head coach, would be the guiding light on the offense, and the OC would basically implement it, do what Mike says, do the coaching and teaching. Kyle being Mike’s son could complicate things, make it more Kyle’s offense rather than Mike’s. And we don’t know just how good Kyle is. Even so, that team (Mike and Kyle) has a lot of talent, and know how to run an offense. I just hope we get a chance to see them in action – that there is a season.
transition
I think its in transition but not the transition you think.
I think the first pairing of father and son made big Shanny trust his son with the decisions (i.e bringing in and eventually starting grossman) but after seeing the results of his son’s decisions, he changed his mind.
The draft and the beck situation make me think Shanny has reined in Kyle this off-season. Picking up two RBs like Helu and Royster is vintage Mike. Switching away from Kyle’s scheme guy towards the unknown character whom the FO traded for, Beck, seems to be a harbinger of things to come.
I don’t think we’ll be seeing Houston’s pass offense as much next season rather we’ll revert to shanahan’s running o
Transition - good question
I sort of think the Beck thing is more Mike than Kyle, but I seem to remember (and I could be wrong) that when they brought in Beck, he was described as Kyle’s guy – old friends, etc. Drafting two RBs looks like Mike, too. Dumping McNabb looks like Kyle. A normal sequence would suggest that a second year OC would be accumulating more power. If Mike actually takes over more OC duties, it would be a bit of a demotion, although of course, Mike cannot fire his son.
I think it's silly...
That we’re sitting here saying that Mike called one half of the game and Kyle called the other. That’s no way to run an offense.
The one thing that no one seems to remember is that, after half time, the Bucs were a lot better at stopping the run. Maybe not the best, but still, better. That, and the Bucs started putting points on the board. Not touchdowns, but in the third, is was 10-9. The Bucs weren’t just letting the Redskins run the ball whenever they wanted.
The Redskins had to put more points on the board, and to do that, McNabb had to start passing more. It’s not that Kyle stopped running the ball. They were still running with some effectiveness. It’s that Kyle was mixing it up more, using more passes to try and open up running lanes. In the second half, the Redskins would run twice, and then on third down, ask McNabb to convert. He didn’t. A lot.
Until that last drive, McNabb looked abysmal in the second half. And he wasn’t really hurried or pressure a whole lot. He had three passes in the second half that should’ve been picked off. At a certain point you need your quarterback to put points on the board, and McNabb wasn’t doing it.
And all the “Kyle doesn’t run the ball enough” stuff ignores the fact that they ran the ball a lot versus Philly in Week 4 (another game where McNabb was below average, and stats showed it), the fact that they ran the ball a lot versus Indy in Week 6 and in Week 7 versus the Bears, the run was used versus Tennessee in Week 10.
It’s not that he didn’t want to run the ball; it’s that 1.) we didn’t have the o-line to really make the running game a major part of the game, 2.) our two starting running backs both were hurt most of the season and 3.) in the red zone, where teams generally tighten up to stop the run, McNabb couldn’t convert touchdowns.
It’s Mike’s team, but Kyle runs the offense. And if Kyle had so much power, McNabb would’ve never been signed. We all know that Kyle didn’t want McNabb in the first place; why, if he had so much stroke with his Dad, would McNabb still end up on the team if he didn’t want him?
Sorry for the rant, but seriously, this is some silly crud…
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