Personnel Moves I'd Make When The Lockout Is Lifted: Trade Fred Davis
by Steve Shoup on May 7, 2011 10:45 AM EDT
in Redskins Analysis
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PrintI'm going to write a series of Redskins personnel moves I'd make when the lockout is over. I'll go into the rhyme and reason why, and try to give both sides of the equation. First up, Trade Fred Davis.
Argument To Keep Him:
Davis has proven himself to be a weapon when given the opportunity. He caught the 5th most receptions on the team last year, and was 2nd on the team in yards per catch (among guys who caught a least 10 passes). Shockingly Davis also had the longest play from scrimmage in a 71 yard catch. Davis has also improved both his pass and rush blocking since his time in Washington, and still hasn't reached his full potential. As it stands now Davis could probably start for at least 10 teams in this league.
Another reason that makes sense to keep Davis around is the fact that teams are starting to utilize two tight end sets more and more. While there are a number of teams that have success with two tight ends the most notable is the the New England Patriots, who used two rookie tight ends to supplement the lack of a true number 1 receiver.
Argument To Deal Him:
Everything I said about Davis above is 100% true. He is a valuable offensive component that when used effectively can increase the potency of an offense. The problem is that Davis isn't used effectively and that he is in the final year of his contract.
Utilization:
Davis was involved in 396 offensive plays last season, or 37% of all of our offensive plays. While that seems like a fair number, remember Mike Sellers was involved in 372 and Joey Galloway (who wasn't even on the team for the final 6 weeks) was on the field for 356. If you look deeper you'll see that 50% of the plays Davis was on the field for he was utilized as a run blocker. Now Sellers had a slightly higher % but still in that range, while Galloway wasn't even close. Now of course that makes sense, as TE's and FB's are used for blocking, whereas receivers primary role is to catch passes. But this is what I'm talking about in terms of utilization. The Patriots knowing their receiver talent was less than ideal would use their TE's as receivers.
It's completely fine to bring Davis in as an extra blocker when you are trying to run the ball, but really should the Redskins 3rd and 4th receivers (and FB's) get so many snaps in the passing game? Davis was a far better pass catcher than any Skins receiver not named Moss or Armstrong, so why wasn't he a great focus of the offense? Now the argument could be made to begin to utilize Davis more like the Patriots do, but I just don't see that happening. Whether you look towards either Mike or Kyle Shanahan's offensive philosophy it is evident that they want to run from a two back set, highly utilizing the Fullback position (now we could upgrade there). On top of their track record we just drafted 3 wide receivers and assuming we resign Santana Moss, will likely have the receiver talent for an effective passing game.
Contract Status:
As of now Davis' lack of use (in times when Cooley is healthy) hasn't been a problem because he has been so cheap. Davis has still been on his rookie deal and even for a 2nd rounder he has been quite affordable. All of that will change next season when Davis is set to reach unrestricted free agency. While it is true that at this time it is unknown if his four years of service time will be enough for UFA, since last year's standard is 6 years, and this season's free agency could be the same. It is highly likely that the players won't agree to a new CBA unless they get free agency back to the current standard of 4 years to unrestricted free agency. This means the Redskins need to make a decision about how much Davis is worth.
It's hard to say exactly how much Davis would get on the open market, but I think the Redskins would at least have to offer a deal similar to the 6 year $30 million deal they gave Chris Cooley. Some people might balk at that suggestion, but that deal was signed 4 years ago. More recently Owen Daniels signed for 4 years $22 million, but he was coming off two injury plagued years and is 4 years older than Davis. Even more average tight ends like Ben Watson and Jeremy Shockey have signed for about $4 million a year, which makes me believe that Davis can give $5 million without breaking a sweat.
I think that is far too much to pay a pair of tight ends, especially when one is used so infrequently. And the other option of trading Chris Cooley doesn't seem too feasible. Considering the Skins aren't likely to contend next season, the best move for them is to deal Davis now when they can get something valuable for him (a move they failed to make with McIntosh and Rogers this pas season).
Potential Deal:
Even though we've already had a number of teams solve their tight end woes through the NFL Draft, there still should be a nice market for Fred Davis. I think you will see more and more teams try the two tight end approach after the success the Patriots showed with it last year. The Giants and Raiders both have their top tight end an unrestricted free agent this season and could be in the market for a replacement (though the Raiders already have dealt their 2nd and 4th rounders). The Bills desperately need a starter, though they wouldn't fit the likely criteria of being a contender. Teams like the Jets, Steelers, Bengals, Chargers, Eagles, Falcons, Saints, could all be in the market for an upgrade at their 2nd tight end position if they are looking to emulate the Patriots.
Now it is hard to say exactly what trade value Davis has, but for a team looking to make a serious Super Bowl run, his upside and price tage ($550K) should look pretty good. The single year left on the deal will give teams pause, but I could see a contender parting with a 3rd round pick next April. If the Redskins can get a 3rd back for Davis (or that value, i.e. a 4th and a 6th), I think they should have no qualms dealing him.
Washington is in the midst of a rebuild and stockpiling as many draft picks as possible well help quicken their road to recovery. As for Davis's spot on the roster the Redskins could look to promote a Logan Paulsen, who showed a lot of tenacity as a blocker last season. They could also look to bring in a blocking specialist at TE, who might not do much in the passing game, but will be essentially a 6th offensive lineman when asked to block.
What do you guys think? Should they move Davis and what should the asking price be?
Steve Shoup has been a Redskins fan his entire life and dreams of the day they get back to the glory days of his youth. In addition to his regular piece on Hogs Haven, you can find his daily writings at Fanspeak.com.
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You say it makes sense to deal him because more teams are using 2 TE sets...
why don’t we just start doing that and utilize the players we have.
Just a thought.
Two points:
Those are contending teams…something we aren’t. So even if we did go down that road we’d still lose him in a year.
And as I said it was clear from our draft strategy in drafting 3 receivers that we were intent on increasing our overall WR talent and depth. I imagine the Redskins are planning on either resigning Moss or another comparable receiver, which leads me to believe they wanted their 3rd, 4th, and 5th receivers involved in the offense. If you are utilizing your 2nd TE more than those become wasted picks.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
very valid point....
on both counts, we could still shop Cooley and renegotiate with Davis, he will still certainly cost less than Cooley and we might get more in return for Chris as well.
Actually I think Davis will end up costing more than Cooley
While Cooley had a $5 million a year average, a lot of that money has already been paid. He’s only on the hook for another $11.4 million over the next 3 years.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
okay
why?
he has no numbers to speak of, no stats to back up his case in arbitration. Everyone suspects he’s good but there is virtually nothing that David can use to leverage a huge contract. Withe the league in transition, I would venture signing Davis to an extension would be easier and cost effective. As much as I loce Captain Chaos, he’s a proven performer and as such, he’s a known quantity and much more likely to attract interest from teams attempting to give their offense “one more weapon”.
I used to be disgusted, now I try to be amused....
There is no arbitration in football
he will be a free agent and $4 million plus a year, is the going rate for TE’s with similar production, who are older with a larger injury history.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
As you mentioned...
Two tight end sets and also two backs are becoming the norm. I do like value from our players but you can`t just tank the season based on your assuming where the team is at. My reasoning would be that moral would reach an all time low if it has`nt moved away from the Vinny era. We drafted two WRS and a tightend (Davis) in Zorns first year and Davis is the only one who has played exceptional enough to be considered value. Maybe more playing time will up his value and not just from a team that is desperate to trade him and has tanked the season. Trading with the G-MEN is a nooo unless we get a second round pick. I would rather keep him and use him more and see where we are after this season.
accept trading Davis isn't a sign of tanking or even not competing
All it signify’s that we aren’t basing our offense on 2 TE sets, which wouldn’t be a shock b/c we don’t do that as it is. Given our current strategy, of using our 2nd TE as an extra blocker, it could be argued that going out and signing a blocking TE (or going with Paulsen) would improve our offense and our chance to compete. The 25-40 balls that Davis might catch (40 would be pretty surprising) could go to our 3rd and 4th WR’s, Now last year that would have been a bad strategy because we didn’t have 3rd and 4th receivers, but with Hankerson (likely moving AA to 3rd) and Paul we have the weapons to do this. In this sense we will have improved our blocking, gotten equal or better value catching the ball (Davis had a 15.0 YPC last year, but I doubt that is sustainable), and a draft pick. That is a win in both the short and long term.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
If the redskins trade
Their faster, younger, more athletic, more physically gifted, more durable, more productive tightend I’m done with this fucking team. While Cooley is and has been a fan favorite for a long time, it is that sort of devotion to “our favorite players” that have led to this aged roster. While it may be a hard pill to swallow for some on here, if you step back and think about it LOGICALLY, we should not be trading a younger, healthier player who is more likely to help us in the future. Restructure his contract and keep him. Trade or cut Cooley in the final year of his contract. Cooley has lost as step as a result of the injuries he’s sustained and that was clearly evident last year.
Davis is the far more explosive player, and cutting or trading the younger of to comprable players on all levels goes against everything we’ve been fighting for…an infusion of youth. Sometimes I really don’t understand the thought process of people on here…you say we need to get younger, but then turn around and say lets trade away our younger better TE. MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL. Quit waffleing and stick to the fucking plan!!!
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 8, 2011 12:46 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You should get your facts straight before you fill a post full of four letter words…
Chris Cooley had one of his best years last year-77 receptions, 850 yards, and three touchdowns. Those three touchdowns are equal to what the defense scored, and the return team scored. The Redskins only scored 33 touchdowns total.
So how did your Boy Davis do last year? 21 receptions, 316 yards, and the same three touchdowns and only half of that production was outside of garbage time. For his career, Fred Davis almost exactly as the stats that Cooley had last year- 72 receptions, 850 yards, and nine total career touchdowns.
Scouting reports are almost exactly the same on the two players, neither one has the wheels to get deep. Before you forget, that 71 yard pass play (should have been a touchdown, but he got caught from behind multiple times) was a blown coverage-neither one of these guys is going to blow through a back field.
Chris Cooley is smarter, and is more effective blocking because he knows who he is supposed to block.
Last year was the year for the second stringers to prove they could start-the Shanahan’s don’t think he can start, plain and simple.
Under your LOGICAL thinking, we should keep HB Blades and trade London Fletcher while he still has value-my point being, there will be exceptions in the get younger movement.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 8, 2011 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, and I forgot to mention that he did that all on a torn meniscus last year
The man is tough as well
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 8, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Not Knocking what cooley has done for this franchise...
hes been one of my favorite players over the years. But maybe you should get your ego and/or lame know it all smart ass attitude in check before you jump all over someones post for expressing a logical opinion assh*le.Sure cooley had a pretty decent last year. but it just seemed he was slower then much of the people around him. he was alway being caught from behind and dropped a lot of key passes as well if I recall correctly. One in particular that would have lead to a TD or atleast assuredly a key first down in the redzone.
Yes Davis hasnt put up the numbers cooley has to this point in his career, but thats because hes been playing behind cooley from the get go. In the games during the 2009 season where davis filled in for the injured cooley, I believe davis had 6 td catches, or nearly double the amount cooley has had in the last two years. And that was only over a small portion of the season. Davis, given the opportunity IMO, would be far more explosive and productive than cooley if he was in the starting position. Hows that for facts ya FUCK?
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 8, 2011 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Tone it down, dude.
Calling people “asshole” and “fuck” isn’t going to convince anyone that you’re speaking logically. Don’t start picking fights just because someone disagrees with your opinion.
I dont respond well to people telling me
to get my facts straight when infact, they sould be taking their very own advice. Look at davis td total the last year and a half since colley went down with the injury in 2009. Then look at cooley’s combined td total since 2008. WHo needs to get the facts straight? I apologize for the language, but the dudes a prick and deserves it
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:12 AM EDT up reply actions
The best way to convince someone you have your facts straight...
is to present them in an organized, civilized fashion.
Apologizing for language, followed immediately by calling someone a prick doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.
How bout this....
Reedskin is a post stalker and loves my nuts. he is a prick. ooops I’m sorry. Prick. Shit! I did it again. Loser fuck! Damn it! Maybe I have a problem, or maybe you just a prick loser fuck stalker??
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
hahahahaha
err… I mean Not cool Dude! Not cool.
Dude Davis was caught from behind a couple of times as well
And while you are right Cooley had more drops than you’d like to see last season, Davis had more drops in 2009 in just over half of the chances that Cooley did last season. While you are right Davis had better hands this past season (they weren’t perfect though), in the time you are citing of him proving to be able to handle Cooley’s role, he actually preformed worse in areas that were in his control.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
again, refernce davis' stats in the 2009 stretch
when filling in for cooley. Notice davis’ td total for 2009. then compare that with cooleys ‘08,’09, ’10 td total combined. That says it all to me.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Your argument would make more sense...
…if touchdowns were the only thing that mattered for a TE (not blocking or all the catches outside the endzone). By that logic, Arian Foster (18 TDs in 2010) is a better RB than AP (13 TDs) and Chris Johnson (12 TDs), and Dwayne Bowe (15 TDs in 2010) is a better WR than Calvin Johnson (12 TDs), Andre Johnson (8 TDs), and Larry Fitzgerald (6 TDs).
Just for the record, I’m in favor of keeping both Cooley and Davis.
To me davis and cooley are both marginal at best with regards to blocking
Neither one of them is greatly superior guy than the other when it come to blocking. Cooley provides you with basically a big possesion reciever, and thats fine. I personally dont want to trade or not resign either of them. I think two te’s of their calibur is a great asset to this team when we have so few as it is. Which is why trading away davis makes no fucking sense.
Rb and WR are different assets to the team than TE. By my logic yes arian foster was a better running back than AP last year and I would be willing to bet most fantasy owners would side with me on this one. Based on strictly last years performance, with no prior knowldge of their career previous to the 2010 season, yes Arain foster was also better than chris johnson. Id certainly take foster and his 18 tds over johnson based on strictly the 2010 season, but thats not the case.
My point about davis is that in the little time he has played, hes proved to be a more explosive and productive player than cooley. TD’s are something this team has struggled to come by the last few years, and davis has contributed a bunch of the lowely total this team has had the past two seasons. This is why If i had to choose one to keep it would be davis for now other reason other than the guy has been our leading td catcher the last season and a half. How do you just give that up??
You just continue to stalk me around this post looking to nitpick whereever possible. Its starting to get really old.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 1:03 AM EDT up reply actions
If you think Foster was a better RB last year than AP and CJ2K...
…we’ve got a much different understanding of the game of football.
I don’t really consider fantasy football when forming my opinions about real football (it’s supposed to be the other way around). If fantasy football was the best indicator of actual play, the Texans (Schaub/Foster/Andre) would’ve won the Super Bowl last season.
Davis has shown potential, but 6 TDs over a stretch of 10 games does not prove that he’s some great TE. Cooley has consistently produced for the Redskins for 7 seasons (6 and change, accounting for his one injury-shortened year). If Davis is so much better than Cooley, why hasn’t he been given the starting role? I guess Shanahan’s been basing his decisions off of watching the guys play, rather than reading their TD stat totals over a 10 game period.
If you’re getting tired of my responses, feel free to stop responding to them.
An undrafted rb
led the league in rushing and TD’s last year. I would say that made him the best in the league last year.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Again, this is where watching football might help more than just reading stat lines.
Houston has a better offensive line than Minnesota or Tennessee. They have a better QB. they have better WRs. Their whole offense is better. Defenses are able to key on AP and Johnson in a way that they can’t with Foster, since Andre Johnson and the rest of the passing attack is the focus of that offense.
If you could have one of the three (Foster, Peterson, Johnson) on the Skins just for next season, which RB would you choose? If you’d choose Foster, you haven’t watched these guys play
I agree with your point entirely, but I don't think Foster is entirely a product of his surroundings
Foster isn’t as good as CJ or AP, but he is def. a top 10 RB, and when you factor in his ability as a pass catcher he is probably right behind those two and Charles. Again your point is still valid, but Cuse’s problem is he is associating Davis as an All-pro, based solely on TD production which is not even close.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I'd put MJD ahead of Foster.
I’d also throw Steven Jackson ahead of him, but I’m willing to admit that I’m a huge Jackson fan, and am pretty biased there. I’d throw Turner somewhere in that mix as well.
I’d definitely agree that Foster is a top 10 back—very arguably top 5.
The zone blocking scheme is significant in Foster's success. Foster does have the
talent to take advantage of the ZBS. This is true of the Jets’ runners as well.
by Jefferson1935 on May 9, 2011 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions
so TD's are the only stat that matter??
Even though they are really subjective based on where you are on the field?? Of Davis’s 9 TD’s over the last 2 years, 7 of them were for 10 yards or less, and the other 2 were for 11 and 17 yards. That is hardly an indication that he is some sort of scoring machine. Davis is targeted more in the redzone, because his size is more of a factor and of course because teams are paying more attention to Cooley.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
So if hes target in the redzone frequently
because of his size and the matchup problems he cause for opposing defenses, why would you want to give that asset up. Our second string TE has been our best redzone threat and yet we’re talking of trading him….wow.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions
umm...what
Above you cite Davis’s TD scoring as a result of him being more ‘explosive’, yet I fail to see how 4 1 yard TD’s is explosive? I also fail to see how he is more productive when he drops more balls on average than Cooley? TD numbers are subjective to situations, especially when all of them are inside the redzone. Had Davis been grabbing a bunch of 25 yard + TD’s then maybe I’d say you have a case, but this is just a matter of Davis picking up the trash. Which is great, but it really isn’t indicative of ‘skill’.
The reason we are talking about trading Davis is the fact that he will be an impending FA in a year, and unless you are willing to pay him $5-6 million a season (which isn’t the smartest football move for a backup TE) you will lose him for nothing. Could you trade Cooley instead, sure but he is more proven, not that much older (it isn’t as though Cooley is 35 years old here), cheaper, and of course more of a team leader.
As for some of the suggestions of using two TE’s more, it’s possible, but I just don’t see it happening. For one thing our TE’s caught 100 of our 349 receptions last year, so we feature them quite a bit. Now our completions could go up, and we could maybe take some of our backs catches, but really all you are doing is adding catches to Davis, while taking them from Cooley. We can just as easily give those extra catches to our new receivers.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
You're an idiot
Did cooley play a lot more than davis last year? YES. Would it be logiical to therefor assume that cooley would have superior stats compared to davis due to significantly more playing time? YES. Now think back to 2009, when cooley went down and davis stepped in. How many touchdown catches did davis have during the abbreviated strecth of the season? The answer is 6, in addition to 3 more in 2010 for a total of 9 (just incase you cant keep count). Since 2008, cooley has had a grand total of 6 td catches. Thats 3 years combined(just incase your still up their on your high horse).
So in one 6-8 game stretch of one season, fred davis has had more td catches than chris cooley has had 3 years combined, injury aside. So unless you just that dumb, or happen to be retarded in which case I appologize, but who the fuck is the more productive, explosive player??
Thank you ladies and gentlemen I’ll be here all night!
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Reedskin???
Where fore art thou reddskin? no smart ass comment to make here? Figured since you’ve been post stalking me all night you would have taken a shot at this one…..too much fact for you though i suppose……
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Are you on shore leave, you drunken sailor?
Your language is completely classless and your diatribe shows how little you know about the Redskins. The Skins play Cooley WAY more than Davis because he is a far superior blocker and always seems to be in the right place to either catch important 1st down passes or draw defenses away from Moss or our departed Portis. So many articles have been written about these facts. Perhaps you should read up instead of sitting there cussing at posters and obviously picking fights. You’ve been unnecessarily hostile and out of place.
That being said, I want both on the team and would like to see more 2 TE sets. I like that we got some youth at WR, but until we see some actual NFL production from them, I don’t want to give up the pluses we already have on our squad.
Neither player is "explosive". They both are easily caught from behind
A prototypical tight end is not going to run through a defensive backfield. There are exceptions to that rule but I have yet to see a speed tied type and also be able to block even somewhat acceptably.
"Their faster, younger, more athletic, more physically gifted, more durable, more productive tightend I’m done with this fucking team."
quite a few of these "facts" then you present in this sentence are subjective and therefore are not facts per se. Is Fred younger? Yes is Fred more physically gifted? I’m not sure, partially because I don’t know what you’re referring to. More durable? Too small a sample size to make that statement. More productive? Again too small a sample size.
In my response to you above, I worded these concerns in a different way, but I meant the same as written here. How often have fans crowned the next player too soon?
What I believe, is that Fred had one good run in half a season. I don’t think he’s likely to be productive given a full time job (and neither does Shanahan apparently).
Why not let another team find this out and pay us a third or fourth round draft choice for the pleasure?
We all know what Chris can do when he is targeted, he’s a Pro bowl productive tight end. Our offense has been crap for most of Chris’s career. Now that we might have some consistency, you may see Cooley mentioned for best tight end. He is already in the top five or six on an absolutely terrible team.
Fred will never be able to accomplish this in my opinion, because it’s football smarts are not there, he seems to have his head in the clouds most of the time.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 9, 2011 9:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Were attempting to get younger here
trading a young, talented player goes against what this team looks to be trying to accomplish.
I’ll give you 3 reasons to keep Davis over Cooley:
1.) Davis is far more athletic, and is a mismatch for any LB trying to cover him
2.) Davis is younger, and has not had the wear-and-tear on his body(and injuries) that Cooley has had
3.) I actually want something productive to come out of the 2008 draft class, and Davis may be our best shot at that
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
He's a better blocker as well...I just don't see it happening
I agree with all your points, I just think Redskins nation would revolt if they dealt Cooley. Also, we need to have some team leader on the offensive side of the ball. McNabb (and its questionable how much of a leader he was) is most likely gone, Dockery is already gone, and Rabach should be gone as well. While they could resign Moss he’s never played a huge ‘leadership’ role.
I think trading Cooley is an intriguing idea, and makes sense from a rebuilding standpoint (though at this point Davis will cost more since most of Cooley’s money has been paid).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
If you can convince Redskins Nation that Cooley should be traded i'd support you
but I don’t see the fans accepting that. Especially after all the personnel debacles last season.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Who cares what the fans think?
More important thing is to win games with consistency. Ive got to know Cooley and of course would hate to see him go, but it would be a Belichick esque move to trade him at the top of the bell curve and get a draft pick back. Fred and Logan Paulsen is a solid duo. will Cooley play 16 games this year? If I had to bet….I’d say No.
"If everyone is thinking alike, somebody isn't thinking." -George S. Patton
Hogs Haven. On Twitter..
by Kevin Ewoldt on May 7, 2011 12:04 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
true but had the Pats not won the Super Bowl the year Brady replaced Bledsoe
you don’t think Belichick might not have had a chance to prove himself?
We are also speculating that Davis would want to resign, when we don’t know whether that is true or not.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Why would the coach have been blamed for that?
Bledsoe had a dang artery torn in his chest from a violent hit. Injury gave Brady a chance to shine, and he obviously had mental tools that Bledsoe never did.
That's kinda my point exactly
Brady didn’t put up big numbers that year and he wasn’t a primary reason they won. Had the Patriots defense and ST’s not been so dominate and they were an 8-8 team…Belicheck replacing Bledsoe would have caused a fan an media uproar, b/c he was the franchise guy. People give Belicheck this credit for making a gutsy move but he didn’t have a choice and it worked out for him.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I dunno.
I don’t see it as any different than the Rams not giving Trent Green his starting job back over Warner, or staying with the same team, not giving Warner his job back over Bulger. Green didn’t do a ton after leaving St Louis (I think he had a good year or two for KC?) and Warner did quite well in Arizona, but both had plenty of gas in the tank and I don’t recall any fan outrage that lasted into the next season. Sure those moves might not have been popular at the time, just as trading Cooley wouldn’t be, and Cooley might have good years elsewhere, but you simply don’t dump the young talented guy in favor of the older talented guy when there is pratically no talent gap. You don’t do it.
I don't think those are comparable
Green again was injured and Warner led the Rams to a SB win…Green had never played a game for the Rams at the time so there was no fan allegience. Green did have a number of good years in KC in the middle part of the decade.
The point is when you are a contending team it is easy to sell, but here we have no answer in terms of leadership. I understad Davis is the younger guy, but really it is what a 4 year difference
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
4 year difference
which is right about the average length of an NFL career when all is said and done. 30 vs 26, equal talent, it’s obvious that if you have to ship someone off, you ship off the 30 year old to a team who needs a high quality TE to compete for championships. Send him to Baltimore, where Todd Heap is likely on his last legs, for a 4th and Donte Stallworth, or a 3rd straight up. Send him to Atlanta, similar story with Gonzalez. Send him to Arizona, who don’t have a TE worth mentioning IMO. There’s value here, and the value for us is resigning the young guy first. If we can’t keep or resign Cooley under our financial restrictions, get that value.
by that logic
the 4 year difference between Davis and a rookie would negate Davis’s value.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Only if the rookie is as good as Davis
which isn’t likely, as rookie TEs don’t tend to light the league on fire. They need time to learn how to be an NFL tight end. And I already covered how by keeping Davis, we don’t have to draft a TE; doing so would be a waste of a pick that could go to higher needs.
i don't know a number of rookie TE's of late have had a good bit of success
There is no doubt that some guys just don’t make it, but there are a lot of good values.
2007: Both Boss and Celek were drafted in the 5th round and had early impacts.
2008: Finley has been a star, and Tamme filled in for Clark pretty well last year. Both drafted after Davis
2009: Zach Miller for Jac. has been a nice late round pickup
2010: A. Hernandez, Pitta, Moeki, and Graham all had some early impacts. As did late rounder Quarless to replace finley last year
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Chris Cooley will be 28 this summer, where the heck do you get 30 from?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 9, 2011 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Dang! I thought it was still 2010
The fact is Fred and Chris are within a month of being four years apart.
But 29 is not 30, and I wish people would be more accurate with that
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 9, 2011 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Who cares what the fans think?
Not arguing, and maybe nobody should, but some have said Dan Snyder goes for players who sell tickets – that is, fan favorites. Also, “fans” represents a kind of collective wisdom, much like Hogs Haven. If a large percentage of the fans want to be represented by a certain guy, that’s maybe worth listening to – although it might not help win games.
The "powers that be" of any NFL franchise...
should never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever listen to the fans when making decisions about personnel.
Agreed...
But…if the powers that be read these post, and agree that they should not listen to us…doesn’t that mean that they listened to us telling them not to listen to us?!?!
Anyway, I have to agree with sense and sensiblity…Davis has more to offer the team than Cooley mainly because he has more years to give and grow. As a young professional I see this all the time and it irritates me to no end. There are those who pave the way…and when they “arrive” they hold on for too long and end up because a “place holder” because they won’t step aside so that younger talent can rise and the cycle can continue.
I'd bet on that
will Cooley play 16 games this year? If I had to bet….I’d say No.
"You're fucking out!"
you make no sense cooley has been a iron man he never gets hurt look how many games since his rookie year he has missed 2010 season he missed some games because of the broken ankle look at the stats instead of just guessing .
lohaus #54
Tight Ends...
Usually are not considered old like running backs cause they are 30 years old. Especially if they have not had any significant injury and you still need some locker room veterans who can keep heads straight so keep Cooly and Davis.
As far as anything productive coming out of the 2008 draft
You should consider the firing of Vinny as the only thing that was productive. I know it hurts, but he threw away the 2008 draft-completely failed.
Prove to me that Davis is a better blocker than coolly. I grant you he has the tools, but he does not have the smarts or technique. Don’t you remember who got run around on that block extra point? And it’s not the first time that he’s missed a block. I can remember at least three devastating blocks on zone stretch plays to the right by Cooley.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 8, 2011 4:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Nothing wrong with shopping him around.....
and seeing what we might get. I think that there are valid arguments for trading Davis and keeping Cooley, or trading Cooley and letting Davis develop or keeping both and taking advantage of more 2 TE sets, especially with probable malor upgrade at WR (if Moss returns). Probably the only position where we have multiple viable options.
Would much rather trade Cooley
I think we could get a little less or a little more depending on when, his performance, and the like, but Davis is the future with this team. Davis is so much younger as well.
Agreed, but I'd be SHOCKED if Cooley gets dealt
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Missing the point
Yes someone mentioned his age…but that is not the point…its about getting the best value for the team…age is just a number…most are saying that Davis is the best value for this team going forward.
I understand all the arguments for trading Cooley over Davis (assuming Davis wants to resign)
But let’s be honest what would the fan base’s reaction be?? And with all the horrible personnel moves of late do you really think the fans would be okay with the dealing of the heart and soul of this team? A guy who has publicly said he wants to be a Redskin for life. I think the fans would revolt. Remember the backlash of those rumors a couple years ago when Cooley was part of the deal to land Cutler or something like that? Imagine if we only get a 3rd or 4th rounder back for him.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Keeping players on the roster solely for their popularity is page 1 of Snyder’s manifesto.
"If everyone is thinking alike, somebody isn't thinking." -George S. Patton
Hogs Haven. On Twitter..
by Kevin Ewoldt on May 7, 2011 12:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
but it goes beyond the fear of Redskins park being stormed with Pitchforks
Cooley is a team leader on a team without leaders. Who else is really a leader, Fletcher? He’s about to be a free agent, and really doesn’t have that many years left. I could be wrong, but i just don’t see it happening.
One of them has to go, and Davis makes sense because he is an impending FA. If the reverse happens I’m fine with it, I’m just not going to lay any money on it.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
One of them has to go
I don’t really see why any of them have to go. Most teams carry 3 TE’s anyways(with at least one playing ST – which Paulsen does)
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
most teams don't pay their TE's a combined $9-10 million
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I can't argue that...
just saying one way or another you are paying starter money to someone who isn’t playing enough to deserve it.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I lean toward keeping both.
They’re both good players, and we’re a team that doesn’t have a lot of good players. As banged up as Cooley always seems to be, it’s nice to have Davis on deck. I wish we could find a way to use both of them more.
We are a team that is not loaded with depth
at many positions (yes, we now have a lot of WRs and DBs, but virtually none of them is a proven NFL player yet). Why are we discussing eliminating the depth we have at TE? What’s wrong with an orderly transition from Cooley to Davis some where down the line when Cooley is ready to hang up his cleats? Even with an excellent draft, this team is full of holes in terms of proven ability and depth. Why are we creating another hole by trading either player for some unknown 2nd or 3rd rounder? Given our thinness at OLine, it is a necessity that we have two athletic and reasonably good blocking TEs. Finally, the argument that we are spending more than others at the TE position is a little hollow in that our youth movement has eliminated a lot of top heavy salaries across the board. Methinks we have way too much time on our hands and it’s not even Summer yet.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
What makes Cooley a leader?
Cooley is a team leader on a team without leaders.
Everyone said he’s a leader on this team, but based on what? He’s the class clown if anything. Seems to me that he just tries not to say the wrong thing and looks out for himself. What leadership skills have you ever seen him display on the field? Have you heard other players talk about his leadership?
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I think it is how you define a leader
I think Cooley is all about the team, he is the class clown, team spokesman, and probably the most unifying player on the Skins. He is the one who is constantly going to other sporting events with his teammates and getting them together for events. And I do say he leads by example as well, in terms of his work ethic and gamesmanship
Here is an interesting article I found on team leadership http://www.hogshaven.com/2010/11/29/1845390/chris-cooley-highlights-leadership-problems-now-past-years
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I made this same observation last week.
Cooley is a go with the flow guy and a great fun locker room presence, but he’s not what this team needs in terms of leadership from its key players. This team needs guys like Brady who are willing to push others to be better regardless of who’s feelings get hurt. That’s not Cooley to date, IMO.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Please no Brady's on this team
that guy will throw anyone under the bus. I’ve never seen a quarterback, blame his line, receivers, backs and defense more.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Cooley might not be a fiery Ray Lewis type of leader...
…but I think that he as value as a “fun locker room presence.” I think it’s good to have somebody in the locker room who can lighten the mood and keep morale up. I’d defnitely like to see somebody step up as more of a team leader, but I think that what Cooley brings to the locker room is also important.
I agree that fun is a plus
but the Shannys recognize the difference between that and strong leadership. What we have are some players who tend to the negative, some fun guys, and some real leaders. Cooley is one of the fun guys, but doesn’t strike me as a true leader on this team. The Shanny’s recognized that they needed more leadership and more “lunch pail work ethic” guys and made a point of addressing that in the draft.
I disagree with Steveo26’s comment that Brady “will throw anyone under the bus.” The guy is a winner and he does everything he can possibly do to help his team win football games. Holding his line and WRs accountable is part of that.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I just think it's good to have both the fiery leaders...
and the fun guys. It’s not like Cooley’s a distracting fun guy or a slacker. He’s definitely a “lunch pail” guy too. Even if he’s not a speech-giving leader, he’s still a good presence to have in a locker room, and I don’t think he’s out of place in the environment that Shanahan is trying to create.
Yes on all points
That’s why I don’t want to see him traded. And it makes no sense to trade Fred, either, as it is one of very few positions on this team where we have depth.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Very true
But I don’t want Davis to go. Davis is great. If we deal him, I see him being a great player for years to come.
The thing is he's going to leave anyways after this year so you need to do something
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
We're not sure of that
what if he gets an extension during the season?
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
but why pay him starter money to ride the bench??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Maybe he becomes a starter
and maybe Cooley is the one to get traded this offseason
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
there must be a reason that he's not getting playing time
And according to Shanahan’s philosophy, it must be that he doesn’t practice well. I doubt you ever see him crack into the starters on this team.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 7, 2011 4:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think it is simply that it is not their offensive style
they prefer 3 and 4 Wideout sets, using Fb’s etc. to having a lot of passing sets with two TE’s. They run from the 2 TE formation, but if that is the case we can just get a better blocking TE.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
What I meant was
Davis is obviously not the winning this starting position from Cooley-therefore he must be the inferior player.
I would love to see us run more type II tight end sets-but it seems neither Shanahan is open to that
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 7, 2011 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
I doubt we'd get Davis' worth if we traded him
A 3rd is definitely at least where is value is at, but I don’t see that. I love Davis and I think he could be a great TE if given the opportunity here or elsewhere, I just doubt we’d get much more than a 5th if we were shopping him.
I'd be a little shocked if you only got a 5th. A 3rd could be too high, but a 5th def. seems too low.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I'd be agreeable to a 4th, I think you can probably get a 3rd since it's a year away, but I'd take a 4th
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I wouldn't
for a player we drafted in the 2nd, and who’s just entering his prime…..no way
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
what's the alternative...saying we are trading Cooley makes some sense
but I don’t think that is a realistic option.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Tiller in the past you always wanted to move Cooley because so few Skins players had trade value.
I realize that this is a season later. What is your rationale for the switch?
by Jefferson1935 on May 7, 2011 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions
not switching here
Steveo asked what’s the alternative, and I said keeping both.
I’m all for trading Cooley if it can net us a descent draft pick(4th or higher). If not, keep him.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
but unless we significantly change our offense
It just doesn’t make sense
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Thank you for that
The arguments both for and against trading either player are getting a bit convoluted and nonsensical. I am hearing people say that the more a player is worth, the more we should trade him? Why would we trade a proven player – Cooley or Davis – for a draft pick unless someone was somehow desperate enough to give us a #1 pick? It’s just not going to happen. Someone needs a reality check here. The fact is, we are pretty solid at TE (one of a very few positions we hold that luxury). Unless someone has a tangible plan for making us a better team REALISTICALLY, I say we just enjoy the fact that we are solid at at least one position on the offensive side of the ball. I’m beginning to think that some of the fans here cannot stand prosperity.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
trading him equals prosperity
keeping him and losing him next year for nothing is exactly our problem
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
But those arguing to keep both...
aren’t assuming that we’ll lose him next year. I think that most of the “keep both” crowd want to resign Fred.
Si!
It is still cheaper than replacing Fred. I understand the idea of trading players for draft picks, but we are not so overloaded with proven talent that it makes sense to do so.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I don't get how it is cheaper to resign Davis
over signing a backup? This season Davis is likely cheaper…but not for the 5-6 years afterwards.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
IMO
signing any credible FA TE would cost as much as re-signing Fred. Most of the available FA TEs that were discussed on this post have been 1st string TEs. That Davis hasn’t beat out Cooley but is comparably skilled works out for both the organization and for Fred in that a fair deal seems plausible. You are suggesting replacing Fred with “just a blocking TE,” which is a down grade to save a few of Dan’s millions, which would make sense if we had a cap or had not gotten rid of a lot of heavy salaries. But we have the money and could be set at the TE position thru the rest of the decade, or close to it. Why not do nothing but re-sign Fred and then go worry about something else?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Yeah i'm not talking about signing any 1st string TE
Personally I’d target one or two Blocking TE’s and if they want too much or are signed away, I’d look at the UDFA’s. While he isn’t a free agent yet, Alge Crumpler would be the perfect addition to the Skins. He is essentially a 6th offensive linemen and allowed those two rookies to catch all those passes from Brady. He is likely to be cut, b/c the Patriots just drafted his replacement in Lee Smith.
Crumpler will have more value to the Skins, because he is such a far superior blocker to Davis. The majority of the times Davis plays his role is as a blocker, so Crumpler excelling in this area more than makes up for Davis’s pass catching ability. Also Crumpler shouldn’t cost more than $2-2.5 million a year, which is likely half of what Davis will bring in after next year.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
but you'd have to pay him more money than Cooley to be a secondary player
If Davis would resign for $2 million a year I think you have a case, but there is just no way that happens (unless like Davis breaks his leg this year and he is just doing it to rebuild his value…but then we don’t have this great TE depth).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
If Davis is looking for $5-6M...
I say go ahead and let him test the FA waters. I just don’t think he’s going to command that much. I guess that’s the fundamental difference in our reasoning.
I mean Jeremy Shockey just got $4 million for one season from the Panthers
Shockey is constantly injured at least a couple games a year, doesn’t stretch the field like he once did, and is really no better blocker than Davis (and is probably worse). He’ll be 31 this year and despite having one of the league’s best throwing to him he’s been above average.
Ben Watson might have had a nice year as the safety blanket in Cleveland, but prior to that he caught between 20-40 balls as a starter in N.E., yet he got 3 years $4 million a year. And he again was older than Davis will be.
Unless Davis has just an awful year where he is a huge liability or misses most of the season due to injury, he gets $5 million a year no problem. Now he might not get as much guaranteed as some others, but $5 million a year is very reasonable. $6 million is pushing it, but if the Redskins do expand this role, like the people are talking about on here, it could happen. I’m guessing he gets somewhere inbetween the two figures.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I think you are correct in saying
Shockey is not nearly the player he once was (even if you bought into his own hype). In fact, at this point in their careers, I would rather have Davis over Shockey hands down. So re-sign Davis for more than someone paid Shockey last year. Big deal.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
but Shockey impacts more plays than Davis
Despite his injuries he still plays more than Davis (and the Saints used 3 TE’s regularly last year). While I’d take Davis over Shockey, we also need to factor how much you are paying someone to back up a position.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I think we just need to agree
to disagree, because neither of us is making any headway. :)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
haha no problem
and I appreciate the thoughful banter. I am just thinking of how pissed off I’ll be when Shanny let’s Davis walk for nothing next season, b/c that is my big fear.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
that is the rub right there....
I tend to side with Scott on this one, but you make a very valid point. If the FO thinks he is going to command more than they are willing to pay, you have got to move him. This is not the time to “see what he can do”. I just think back to last year when we had a player in Carter, coming off an 11 1/2 sack season, who had to have some value to someone. After one unproductive year we get nothing for him. I understand that was not a FA situation but I think the comparison still stands.
The best scenario is halfway
thru a lackluster season this year, we re-sign Freddy to a cheap, long-term deal. Then we are all happy.
I have to believe that if Allen decides that Freddy is not worth signing, he would actively look to trade him during the upcoming year. Otherwise, he’ll do the proactive thing and sign him.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
but as soon as the season starts he starts losing trade value
esp. if he isn’t producing then it plummets completely.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Steve it looks like you want to do a series on the player trade topic. Ideally the Team would trade either Cooley or Davis
for another teams player of comparable value. The value issue would not be such a big deal. Trades for draft picks is another issue. Hypothetically, If Seattle or the Ravens were willing to trade an offensive lineman for Cooley (or a combination of players in a deal. ) it might close roster gaps for the teams involved.
by Jefferson1935 on May 7, 2011 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions
good point, I just think it is harder to peg who might be available on their rosters.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
This is better reasoning than the trade
for draft picks argument, but I still think you run the risk of taking a position where we are strong and with depth and diluting it to the net detriment of the offense. Who is to say that a “comparable” value for Cooley or Davis at OLineman would actually improve the team? We don’t need another journeyman OLineman. Unless we get someone who can be a true starting Center or Guard, we risk weakening our TE position for no real gain.
Finally, you know Murphy will step up and injure the TE we don’t trade and then we just went from a position of strength and depth at TE to total need and suckiness.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
They should test the market for both players
I chose “yes” because I believe there would be more value out there for Davis. Love Cooley, but I suspect we rate him too highly (I always pick him too early in my FF draft). He maybe has more value to us, than to another team, for the above mentioned offensive leadership.
The points made above re- offensive formations are valid; if the Shannys wanted a two TE set, why didn’t we see it much last year? They’ll stick with a FB and RB in the backfield and hope to see production from the drafted (and FA?) WRs.
I rate Logan Paulsen, by the way, and think he’ll stick with the team.
by Stephen Beagrie on May 7, 2011 12:03 PM EDT reply actions
yeah I do think Cooley is rated higher by us
as we suffer through his poor blocking. His leadership is the key though and really why I’d be shocked he gets traded.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
rebuilding
When you are rebuilding you dont trade away young talent. I love Cooley but his best years are behind him. We have two young TE’s in Davis and Paulson that can help us work towards the future.
yes but you also get the best picks you can in trades
I don’t know if we’d get a 3rd for Cooley, given some blocking issues…though maybe we would. What I do know is Davis will cost a bit more than Cooley, and we can get a good pick for him (at least I believe)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
i see your point
I can see where you are coming from from a draft pick stand point. The only problem is if we trade Davis and Cooley gets hurt (which, lets face it, it will happen) we only have Paulson and who knows who else we could grab off the street. I like the fact that we are getting younger/
by A SKIN IN UT on May 7, 2011 12:18 PM EDT up reply actions
but we can't keep him solely to be there for the chance that Cooley might miss significant time
That future pick has more value than a backup TE, and that is honestly how Davis is being used. The majority of those receptions that he had last year (in addition to a lot of the passes to our backs) should go to our new receivers.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
see below: again what are we tryingt to do
sorry im new at this and i forgot to hit reply when i posted my response.
by A SKIN IN UT on May 7, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Why are you so sure.....
Fred Davis is a 5 million a year TE? He has only shown his true potential part of one of his 3 seasons. I understand that’s not his fault….but it still makes him a one year wonder in other GMs minds. I think Davis could be had for around the 2-3 million range and I am thinking Cooley would possibly restructure at some point given that we overvalue him here. I would go as far as to let him go out and test the waters….give his agent the okay to set up a trade so he can see his value on the market and then hit him with a new contract with an add’l voidable 2 years at around the current remaining contract value of around 3 million a year.
Yet another offseason......another few months for the Skins to "shine".
If Ben Watson can get $4 million a year then it is pretty clear that Davis will get more...
it is simply the market rate. No way Davis gets in the $2-3 million range. That is what blocking TE’s get and right or wrong pass catching guys like Davis are more highly valued.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Ben Watson was proven commodity when he got that
Yet another offseason......another few months for the Skins to "shine".
Not really...he might have been a former highly drafted TE
but he was not an offensive weapon for the last couple of years for the Patriots. I know he had a nice year with the Browns, but Davis easily has a higher offensive profile than Watson does. Davis did more as a backup last year than Watson did as a starter in 2009.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
The market could also be flooded....
depending on the new CBA. You have players like Kellen Davis, Greg Olsen, Martellus Bennett, Daniel Graham, Jeremy Shockey, Jermichael Finley, Joel Dreessen, Marcedes Lewis, Jim Kleinsasser, Visanthe Shiancoe, Kevin Boss, and John Carlson, just to name a few, available potentially in 2012. There is a lot of proven talent potentially out there to say that enough teams will have a need to be shelling out 6 million to Fred Davis who’s coming off a $550,000 contract year. Not to mention a lot of teams could be filling there needs in the draft. As much as people say we overvalue Cooley….I think you are overvaluing Davis.
Yet another offseason......another few months for the Skins to "shine".
And not to beat a dead horse....
but a 6 million a year TE better net us more than a 4th rounder!!!!
Yet another offseason......another few months for the Skins to "shine".
Our $12-16 million QB isn't going to net us much more than that
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Why should we overpay some other FA TE
when we have a known commodity that we can overpay instead? Someone who already knows the coaches, the offense and how to get to the stadium.
Your proposal to trade either TE is risky with no clear cut benefit. It is a lot of flailing when the smart thing to do is hold pat and keep both. They might cost together a little more than the average NFL team’s TE package, but they are both proven commodities and represent a better TE package than most teams have, so there is value there in terms of skill and depth.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
So you would pay Davis starter money to ride the bench??
Yes if we sign a blocking TE for $2 million a year, we are paying him slightly more this year, but just 1/3 of Davis’s salary next year. And since we primarily use Davis as a blocker, adding a blocking TE would get us more bang for our buck. Whatever value we lose in the passing game would be more than made up for from the blocking (which doesn’t even include chipping the end as he releases).
Why would Davis even want to resign if he is just a backup? It just doesn’t make any sense.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
My whole point rests on
Davis being able to step in if Cooley gets hurt plus being a viable blocker and receiver in a two TE set. So what if we save Dan a few $Ms. Why take a position of strength and dilute it for no tangible benefit? Resign Fred and rest comfortably knowing that he and Cooley are fairly interchangeable. Now go worry about some other position, like for instance, we have no QB to speak of. :)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
But again I don't get that. Davis only brings value to this team if Cooley gets injured
Otherwise any backup TE can basically fill Davis’s role. No they won’t be as good as a pass catcher, but they will be a better blocker, which is Davis’s primary role.
And after this season that becomes one very expensive insurance policy. I just don’t think it is likely that we will significantly change our offense to get Davis 40+ balls which is what he’d need to justify $4 million a year, much less the $5-6 he is likely to get.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Please read again carefully
I put the insurance role and below on equal footing. Having two TEs who can block and catch makes the running game and the passing game more balanced and viable. This is huge in the red zone and makes for a solid investment.
plus being a viable blocker and receiver in a two TE set.
In other words, I disagree completely that you suggest Davis only has worth as a replacement for Cooley and that you thought I intended as much.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
But in the red zone is where Davis loses his value
Just about any TE can be a weapon in the redzone, because they will have size. Davis’s greatest value to the passing game is between the 20’s. That is where he can create matchup problems. Unfortunately he hasn’t been used that way. And that really isn’t likely to change.
Davis simply doesn’t fit the mold of what we ask of our number 2 TE. So why are we trying to fit a square peg in a round hole? And also then overpaying that peg.
My point with the insurance policy is Davis will only get enough, plays, catches etc. to be worth his impending salary, if Cooley gets hurt. Otherwise you are paying a guy more money than your starter just so he can play at best 40% of the snaps. And of those most of the time he is blocking, which isn’t what you are paying him for??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
There is no doubt there are some nice names, but that doesn't mean Davis doesn't get paid
Only Finley, Lewis and Boss are really better than Davis. Carlson is a nice pass catcher but he is probably a worst blocker than Cooley. Olsen you can make a case for and he will probably be in the same area as Davis.
It really doesn’t make a difference as to what contract that Davis is coming off of. It was a rookie contract based on his position and draft slot. Of course it is going to make a big jump up to this new deal.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I think you are nuts.....
but we will see next year. W/out Davis making a big impact this year…..no way he gets 5-6 million. You say Olsen is close….Olsen is and has been a starter. Olsen has earned that money….Davis has not. You can say whatever you want of that list….but if you were a fan of any other team….those names would drown Davis’ out!!!
Yet another offseason......another few months for the Skins to "shine".
Insane In The Membrane
Those comments sound very intelligent ,but I really beleive, they lack a lot of thought, we need to make sure we keep Fred & trade Chris, youth is the major issue I have & production, I like Chris but he would be perfect trade bait plus we would get more value for him ,even though Chris is our starter he has a 11.00 receiving( ypc) career avg. , while Fred has an 11.8 (ypc) receiving career avg. Fred has a Antonio Gates appeal to him & I wish Shanny pull the trigger on this deal cause I have a hunch that this young man has a Shannon Sharpe shadow behind him..
again what are we trying to do
Being a lifetime skins fan all i hear from fans is that we need to get younger. Then we turn around and we are hearing we need to trade our young talent. Nobody gets better by trading their future. For example all of our draft picks for veteran/ past their prime players. If we trade Davis we will regret it for many years to come.
but the draft pick would be younger and cheaper than Davis...
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
whats the motive
are we trying to get better or cheaper. Davis is still pretty young and hasnt had a lot of playing time so his body is still young. Also if you want to be younger and cheaper, Davis is younger and cheaper than cooley
Both...
Tying up too much money into the TE position is a bad strategy. Could you trade Cooley…sure but it does leave a leadership void, and I just don’t know if it is feasible. Again I’m fine if we move Cooley, but just not sure it will happen. Davis will likely be easier to move, and possibly net us more.
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payday
Davis isnt going to demand big time money when he is a free agent. He still may be cheaper than cooley if we give him another contract. As far as leadership, somebody is ready to step up. They are just waiting for their time. You cant have all chiefs and no redskins (indians) :)
Disagree he will easily get $5-6 million a year
Cooley makes under $4 million a year over the rest of his contract
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A couple million
So you would rather have a player at the end of his career than a young potentially more expensive player heading into his prime. Draft picks are always a risk. Is it worth losing davis for a third round draft pick at best?
by A SKIN IN UT on May 7, 2011 2:42 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
but what guarantee do we have that Davis will be this 'star'
he’s been good as a backup, and in replacing Cooley, but he hasn’t exactly been Antonio Gates.
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But Cooley isn't going anywhere...at least it doesn't seem so
I know the expiration date on when Davis is gone…unless we deal him earlier or sign him to good money
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We don't know that
any player could be traded, and Cooley’s money has already been given, so that makes him very contract friendly
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
which is why we will be keeping him and not Davis
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 7, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think there is a better chance of Haynesworth, McNabb and McIntosh all starting for the Skins
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because then we are taking away receptions to our new young receivers making them more of a waste
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I love the optimism on the new WRs...
but I think Hankerson’s the only one who’s got a chance to contribute week 1. As of now, we still don’t have Moss. Even if he’s resigned, it’s crazy to assume that all of these WRs are going to contribute. Productive rookie WRs are pretty rare, especially in the later rounds.
I'm not saying each of these guys is getting 1,000 yards
but that Hankerson can be a 600-800 yard guy, and Paul can be a 350-500 yard guy.
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In looking at the Ravens roster ...
I just noticed Houshmanzadeh is an unrestricted free agent. Something to consider? I’ll bring it up again in a more appropriate thread later.
It wouldn't be a bad signing
though if we resign Moss, that would probably push Robinson off the roster.
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It might ...
Moss, Housh, Hank, AA, and then a bunch of guys competing for that fifth spot. Could be Kelly, Paul, Robinson or even a holdover from last year like Austin or Banks makes the cut. I think I’d like Kelly to finally “get it” and make the roster, as we don’t have great size overall and it would help in the redzone especially. However, I also like Paul and Robinson for their speed and youth, and lack of recent major injuries keeping them sidelined for two or three years heh
I really love Paul though. I think he can push Armstrong for the 3rd WR role
assuming Moss and Hankerson are 1 and 2. Robinson also has a lot of promise. Right now i don’t know where housh would fit in.
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Clear #2 WR starting day
assuming Moss is back. No Moss, he’s our #1 all day. He’s not the best WR in the league, but he’s got talent, some good speed and knows how to run routes. If we signed him, I actually think it pushes Hank to #4 for the first third or half of the season, as AA already knows the offense and would be the better play at #3.
no he could, but I really believe that Shanny grabbed Hank and Paul, because they can impact this
team early. If you don’t resign Moss then maybe I get it, but otherwise it is just negating those draft picks value.
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Think what I'd like to see
is sign Housh, start Moss and Housh, AA/Hank as 3/4 through the season, Paul as 5, Robinson kept on as special teams and return specialist. I like Banks, but if Robinson has the kind of speed he’s been reported to have, he could be just as effective with less chance of getting murdered.
Keeping 6 receivers is tough (esp. if we are going to keep 3 TE's)
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Didn't we do that last year?
I can’t remember if Austin was on the active roster or practice squad. I know we had Moss, AA, Galloway, Williams and Banks active.
we did it at the start
but we had to change when we needed the extra RB spot among others. First they cut Banks to make room for Torain, then dropped Keiland Williams to bring back Banks, and then finally Thomas to bring back Williams. Austin came up when Galloway was cut.
If Torain is still on the roster it might be hard to keep only 3 backs since you can’t rely on him to be healthy.
Roster construction was a big issue last year:
3 QB’s, 2 FB’s, 4 RB’s, 5 WR’s and 3 TE’s really leaves room for only 8 o-linemen again. Unless we take a spot from defense.
We could only go with 3 RB’s, but if so I’d rather see another O-lineman than a WR. We could take out a FB spot, but then that hurts us on ST, and it would only make sense if we are signing a big name FB.
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I really wanted him last year...
not so much this year….as long as Moss comes back. If we bring in Housh, then who becomes the odd man out? I want to see our young guys get some playing time and Housh definitely start if he came in. Obviously these guys have to prove themselves (even AA needs to show some improvement and that he can be consistent) but I am feeling pretty good about our WR corps (w/ Moss).
Yeah great idea last year
now not so likely to happen. Maybe these guys aren’t all the answer…though i must say I believe in them, but this isn’t a case of us forcing guys on the roster.
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I would be surprised if Paul had more than 15 catches this season.
He’s very unpolished. It’s not unheard of for a 5th round WR to contribute his rookie year, but it’s pretty rare.
I just have a hard time trading away Cooley (proven) or Davis (has shown productivity at the pro level) because we’re trying to make room for a 3rd or 5th or 6th round WR who hasn’t played a down in the NFL. I can see the concept of this reasoning, as our offense calls for more sets with 3 WRs than with 2 TEs. I just view having two pretty good TEs as more of a strength than a problem or a waste. If Cooley goes down, we’ve still got a receiving threat at TE. If we want to run some 2 TE stuff (near the goalline, perhaps), we’ve got the TE personnel to give defenses fits. I’d like to keep Davis around, keep coaching him up on his blocking, and see him step in whenever it is that Cooley’s legs start to give out on him—whether that’s next season or five seasons from now.
See I am a big believer in Paul
I know the offense that he ran at Nebraska can leave the impression that he is unpolished, but I really think he is ready to contribute. He’s a smart receiver and in college he was just underused. He really impressed me with his Senior Bowl week, as he ran all the pro style routes and was one of the more advance and talented receivers there (Hankerson was probably the best overall, and I’d probably put Vincent Brown above Paul as well). Granted it was just a week, and of course the Junior receivers weren’t there, but Paul looked good and ready to contribute.
I don’t mind running two TE sets, but I just don’t think you resign Davis just for the 30 balls a year he might catch. If we are inside the redzone then we have shortened the field to the point where Davis’s size matters, but his speed and agility really don’t mean much. Eight of Davis’s nine TD catches (the past two years) have come from 11 yards out or closer (including four 1yd TD’s), which leads me to believe that Paulsen could be just as valuable. I mean two years ago when Cooley went down and Yoder became our 2nd TE, he had just 4 catches, but 3 were for TD’s around the goal line. Now I want Paulsen or whomever to catch more total balls, but the point is Davis’s value inside the redzone is probably overstated.
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You seem to be hung up
on how many balls different receivers (backs, TEs, WRs) will likely catch each year. To me that doesn’t matter as much as posing the greatest threat to the defense that we could pass to any one of our receivers on any given play. Having Cooley and Davis maximizes the ability of the offense to go anywhere with the ball.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
That's the problem though...Davis isn't a threat if he's on the sideline
which is where he is on the majority of plays. And any TE can catch the ball in the redzone so a lot of times when we will send both TE’s out, Davis isn’t really that much better than the Logan Paulsen’s of the world.
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It still seems like you are bent on
making the team older and less expensive. I’m saying we are lucky to have depth and quality at the TE position and we should keep it that way. I would be more in agreement with you if we were regarding the trade of one of two “equally” skilled players if we were talking about the QB position, where you can’t really afford to pay for two starting QBs and open yourself up to a “QB situation” that could be divisive. Other than that, I think we should stand prosperity.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
But who cares how old a Crumpler is if he has a bigger impact (because of his blocking)
for a lower price. I don’t care if Davis accepts only $4 million (which I think is HIGHLY doubtful), paying him that money to sit on the sidelines is just a bad business decision. Teams that have that depth at the TE position usually do so by having a recently drafted player there who is making under a million.
I’d much rather invest that extra money into our future QB, or the O-line, or any one of a dozen other positions that have more value than paying a backup pass catching TE, starter money to be a backup blocking TE.
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Exactly
Davis is young, talented and hungry. This team needs that at this stage of their renovation. The Redskins have a shortage of good, proven WR’s. And Cooley is the best pass catcher on the roster since Moss isn’t signed. I don’t think that trading him is a good idea, especially since he is due to make 11 mil over the next 3 years, as posted above. Why not figure out how to use Fred more often by using 2 TE sets? He has shown that he can catch the ball and make plays (5 TD’s in last 5 games of ’09).
but then those picks we just made are a waste...you can't have both a two TE offense and a 3-4 WR offense
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Considering how you have no idea how those picks will turn out, what’s the issue with using a guy who’s proven to be a good receiver over young WR’s who don’t know the offence, and that we have no idea if they’re going to be good or not?
but by next season Davis will be a free agent and catching passes for another team.
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and what about Cooley?
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Uh, yeah you can.
It’s called being multiple on offense. Flexibility and the ability to competently run incredibly disparate packages is what separates NFL offenses from college. Having a viable two TE package gives you a ton of flexibility. You can run all sorts of run plays off it, you can motion one over and overload one side for passing plays, you can run some beautiful play action and dummy the LBs, sneak the TEs out behind them … And, you can run 3 or 4 wide the very next play.
yes and teams use cheap TE's to run that
If Davis was signed for another 3 years at $500K then i’m fine with it.
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I can see the salary strategy you're using...
but we’ve got one of the lowest payrolls in the NFL (weird, I know). It’s not like spending a little extra to keep two starting caliber TEs is going to prevent us from resigning all the young talent we don’t have. Unless we’re interested in making a Vinny-esque run at multiple free agents, the cap hit from Davis/Cooley won’t kill us in the two seasons after Davis’s current contract expires.
Here is the thing
Look longterm… we still need to add a QB, maybe we go for Beck for a year but after that i’m guessing we upgrade one way or another.
O-line: Trent is the only thing we have short or long term. Licht might give us a year maybe monty as well, but we are going to have to sign at least two FA’s. And probably 2 more long term (0r maybe draft picks next year).
WR: We are now pretty set here, but Moss or another FA will be signed.
RB: We are set for at least a year here
FB: We could look for an upgrade here
DE: Carriker, Holliday and Daniels are all FA’s, We only have Jarmon and Jenkins long term. Sure we will have the Haynesworth morney, but we will have to invest here.
NT: Chris Neild is really our best option, likely we are going to have to add a pretty decent name.
OLB: Now we are set here
ILB: Fletcher is an impending FA so we will need to resign him, and since Perry Riley has only played 8 defensive snaps we could use an upgrade.
CB: we need someone across from Hall
S: Landry is a free agent after this season.
Conclusion: yes we still have a ton of money (and will have more with moving/cutting McNabb/Haynesworth) but we still have a number of needs to address in the next two years.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Exactly.
Why add TE to that list of needs? Keep Cooley and trade Davis means that in three years, we have a 33 year old TE nearing the end of his useful career, which means we have to spend a valuable draft pick on another TE. Keeping both, or trading Cooley and keeping Davis means we are now set at the position for the next five years at least, barring horrible injury. This is a no-brainer in my book.
I can buy that
but i’d just be shocked if it happens. I think without a doubt one of these two need to be dealt.
Could it be Cooley? sure it makes sense from an age standpoint, and from a blocking standpoint. On the positive side is the contract, and the passing aspect where Cooley has been slightly betterj.
Overall I like Davis, but we really can’t say with 100% certainty that he can completely fill Cooley’s shoes, so I think there is a slight risk here.
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Can Paulsen fill Davis's shoes, though?
If Cooley goes down, can Logan Paulsen be the threat that Sleepy is? If we use two TE sets, can Cooley/Paulsen be as big a threat as Cooley/Davis? I think the answer to all is no. 2009 proved what Davis can do when given consistent plays on the field.
But that means Davis's value is entirely predicated on whether Cooley goes down
In the capacity that that he is used now yes Paulsen or some other blocking TE can fill that role.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
If we keep them both, yes. Well, no ...
not entirely. Davis can be rotated in to rest Cooley, and there’s really no drop-off in talent. Half of the fan attachment to Cooley is he has a great name to yell after he makes a big play. Davis is perfectly capable. I think Davis/Paulsen is just as good as Cooley/Paulsen, which means if both can’t stay, you clearly keep the younger guy (who has the potential to keep improving) over the older guy (who is pretty much what he’s going to be).
I want to see Cooley retire a Redskin and have played here his entire career, but if one has to go, it has to be him.
Here's the thing even if the Skins were
willing to pay the freight for both receivers and give Davis a little bit more time on the field catching balls, would he decide to stay? The best move for Davis’s career is to go to a team where he can start and have the most impact. I really would be shocked that he’d stay.
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Resign him before this season.
Allen has to get this done, he has to have a new contract or extension to his current deal in place before this season starts. Last year they didn’t extend or re-deal a bunch of guys because they didn’t know what they had. Now they do, and this is something I think you’ll see happen.
I’ll leave it at this and go to bed: if they extend/re-sign Davis, Cooley is likely gone. I’d love to keep both but I’m not sure it can happen long term, and if that’s true, his value will never be higher than now.
Anothny Bryant simply isn't a starting NT on this team
or any team. He would be by far the worst starting NT in the league. He might be able to be a backup, but even that is far from certain.
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So the idea is to trade Cooley/Davis for, at best, equivalent of Jenkins/Hankerson coming in next year
Does that make sense? (“at best” because some said we might not even get a third round pick next year). A fourth round pick would be giving away a pro bowler this year for somebody like Helu next year.
But look at what you are saying
Jenkins, Hankerson, and Helu (and those usual equivalent picks) are worth more than a number 2 tight end. Both Cooley and Davis aren’t going to be pro bowlers so you are talking about trading a guy who at best will be on the field for 40% of the plays. Even if Helu is a number 2 back or Hankerson a 3rd receiver those positions are worth more than a 2nd TE.
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I'd trade Cooley over Davis
but I don’t see either of them being dealt.
Cooley is too much of a fan favorite. I think his leadership is overblown because of his popularity with the fans… its not like the stories about him this offseason were about organizing work outs and keeping people out of trouble. Instead they were about pottery, covering other sporting events, and commenting on other teams.
I love Cooley but his best years are behind him and if he can be traded, he should be. I think a contender THIS year is more likely to offer for cooley than Davis anyway because of the polished receiving skills rather than potential. I can see him turning into a weapon more like Jermichael Finley on the Packers if he gets on a team with a great QB.
I think Shanny will do anything he can to keep Davis beyond this year. I know its well commented above but we need all the youthful weapons we can get. I’m not high on our offense even with the draft (though Helu and Hankerson could be a start). Davis shined when Cooley was injured and I want him to go back to that.
I also think he is more likely to resign here if he is the #1 TE and perhaps more importantly and just as probably, the #1 option in the receiving core. I’m high on Hankerson but the chance that he’s our #1 before year 3 (when most experts agree that receivers breakout) is low. Davis is a great option before that happens.
If we were to trade Davis, we would lose all our depth at the one position which we have it. Cooley has been injured before and I’m not comfortable with Logan Paulsen being his only backup. Davis is young, athletic, uninjurred, and improving. Cooley has been great for us but we need to channel our inner-belichick and trade away our declining veterans in-exchange for new young talent.
HTTR
I'd trade coolz
Even though he is one of my favorite players it comes down to winning. No matter how you look at it he wont be around when we’re contenders. So any veteran players we can trade for PICKS i’m all for at this point. I like davis, when he catches the ball i’m excited. Not AS much with cooley. Davis I feel can bust one loose at any moment.
The Beat Box aka skins secondary.
I would be willing to bet a bottle that Chris has six more years in this league as a tight end.
Let us let him get through this contract and see how it looks at that time
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 7, 2011 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you're overrating his market value
I think you’re overrating Davis’s market value. We all see the potential, but it really hasn’t been realized.
Davis is likelier to contend for a 4/$20 contract next year than a $5/30 contract. It’s going to be a very TE-crowded free agency and while it’s true he could start for 10 teams or so, two thirds of the marketplace won’t be interested in him at that price.
Better to keep him. The possibility of another injury for Cooley is fairly high, and it’s inevitable we’d need Davis to start a couple of games. They just need to be smarter about using him more often.
Mediocre TE's who are a lot older are getting $4 million I think Davis gets at least a $1.5 more a year
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to be clear $1.5 million more than the $4 million, so Davis should be in the $5.5 million range.
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"The possibility of another injury for Cooley is fairly high"?
Why is that?
I think that phrase more aptly describes Malcolm Kelly more than any other player on this football team-yet almost everyone here thinks that this will be his breakout year…
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 7, 2011 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah I agree
2 of the last 3 years he has played in every game. I know there was a game or two where maybe he missed a quarter or more, but really he has been pretty healthy. Last year he played something like 98% of all offensive snaps.
I know he plays with a reckless abandon and doesn’t really take care of himself, but really at most I see him missing maybe a game or two. Obviously there is always the chance for something unexpected…but the same thing could happen to Davis.
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i think we should sign him and use him. the two tight end set is great…and we had the personnel for it. they block and catch. the perfect “big target” possession receiver. moss and armstrong can stretch the field…though davis can too.
by les boulez bomber on May 7, 2011 3:17 PM EDT reply actions
but then our receivers aren't used as much and I don't think they drafted 3 guys to sit on the bench
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Maybe at some point on offense we could enjoy
the luxury of balance between the running game and the passing game. Having 2 TEs who can block and are athletic helps both and make it harder for the defense to stack to either. You are wasting away a position of strength for the offense for no tangible or clear-cut gain.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
At this point I would recommend keeping both.
Davis is in a contract year, and should be ultra productive. Doubtful he brings back more then a 4th rd pick. His age and upside are worth keepining this season, in my honest opinion. Even with a great year, the Skins could place a tag on him, TE tags are relatively cheap.
Cooley is also worth keeping as he has a very favorable contract, and is one of the best tight ends in the league. Even if you could get a 2nd for him, doubtful in my opinion, it’s unlikely that you could get that kind of production back from the pick. And given the other offensive needs, they should keep all the offensive talent they have.
It’s a 2 TE league, and Paulsen is a blocker only. Now if a team offers a #1 for Cooley, or a #2 for Davis, then we would talk. Otherwise keep both in my humble opinion.
The TE tag is like almost $8 million
so that really isn’t an option. Even if you get only a 4th it is better than nothing after this season. Let’s be honest we aren’t likely to compete for anything unless every other team in the NFC East has the worst rash of injuries we have ever seen and we are perfectly healthy. I Think you need to get some value when you can get it.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Heh.
You just seem hell-bent that he’s gone after this season. I disagree with that thesis, which kinda ruins the rest of the argument.
I'm saying that it is a bad football decision to resign him for $5-6 million a year (and that he might not even want to if he isn't starting)
when you already have Cooley. I think it is one or the other in terms of a trade, or Davis will walk for a better opportunity and more money.
The only thing i’m hell-bent on is capitalizing on our assets. I thought only bringing back McIntosh and Rogers last season on their one-year tenders was a bad use of resources and this is the same as well. If we could have gotten even a mid-round pick for those guys wouldn’t it have been worth it rather than losing them for nothing?? And those guys started. Davis doesn’t have nearly the impact they do.
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This is why we have Bruce Allen.
This is also where he gets to earn his paycheck. I know we haven’t had a competent front office in five forevers, but have a little faith.
exactly this is the smart move and not just to hang on to the guy b/c it looks good on paper
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I don't think you understand.
Allen’s job is to fit them under the cap. If he can do that, we keep them both. If he can’t, trade Cooley, resign Davis. Simple.
Transistion tag is about $5.3M.
Which is a lot cheaper than a 5yr/30M $ deal. Of course Davis also has to have a standout season to merit that tag, or a new contract.
In my opinion, it’s a bad deal for the Skins to give up on Davis for only a 4th.
I’d rather the team does next year what they did this year to accumulate more picks.
Just trade down, no reason to give up on young talent without getting back more in return.
but the transition tag offers no compensation just right of first refusal and you are still talking about tying up $5.3 million (which will also go up)
But essentially we aren’t using Davis…so we are just wasting that talent as it is
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The proper tag would need to be applied on the type of season Davis produces.
Transistion tag does offer the team the option to match, and if they don’t, they will receive a compensatory pick the following year.
Franchise tag stands at $5.9M currently, it will go up, but not by much. If Davis has a steller season, possible in a contract year, then the franchise tag can and should be applied.
Cooley’s contract runs out after the 2013 season when he will likely be much less productive. Right now, his contract is a bargain. Unless Davis just doesn’t have the talent level we think he has, there is no reason to give up on him so soon, in my opinion. Cooley’s production should go down as Davis’s goes up, to the point where Cooley will be expendable, and Davis will be the main guy.
The team doesn’t need to reach for extra draft picks, Allen showed us this year that he has the capability to make deals, and increase the pool of picks when needed. My honest and humble opinion only.
but again there is no guarantee on the compensatory picks
where he was tagged as a transition player or not. I’m think that the Redskins will be signing more guys than they lose, given all the money and all the positions open that season.
That $5.9 number was for the 2010 season, this year the tag is $7.28 million which is what Jags TE Mercedes Lewis signed for. I don’t know what the transition tag is but I’m guessing it is right about $6 million. The tag numbers might not move up too much next year, but the point is it will be costly to keep Davis on a tag.
Yes the Skins could trade back, but what if they are in a position where they need to trade up to get the QB they need (or stay where they are), or maybe move up in the 2nd round for a starting OT, having these extra picks could be key.
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absolutely....
It was the fact that we ere not going for a top QB that made it possible for us to be so flexible in the draft (we could have had Gabbert at 10). I don’t think we will have that luxury next year…that is unless John Beck comes out and sets the world on fire (how awesome would that be?)
The tag is based on the average of the top 5 players....
at the position for franchise, and top 10 for transistion.
My point for keeping Davis, at least this year, is he should be highly motivated to be ultra productive. Why not take advantage of that? If he does have a career year, then we can discuss tags, trades, salary cap, and other options. You can always tag a guy, and then trade him next year.
If Davis does exceed expectations this season, then his market value will substantially increase. Why trade him for a 4th this year, when we might be able to get a 2nd for him next year after applying the tag? His salary, trade value, and potential don’t merit a trade at this point, in my opinion.
but if he has a great year the options are Tag or resign longterm we won't be able to trade him
We could maybe tag him with the Franchise tag and accept less, but at that salary it could be cost prohibitive. Part of his trade value this year is the fact that he is so cheap.
What if Davis just has a good year? Say another 50-75 plays this year, and maybe another 10-12 catches. Those are good numbers and nearly as good as you will get for a 2nd TE, but unless he is getting significant starting time you aren’t going to be able to tag him.
And honestly while i def. see Davis in the $5-6 million range, I don’t see him getting franchise tag money.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I'm not really concerned about the tag now.
Or draft picks next year. Let that take care of itself in time. The question revolves around his talent level, and will he be able to maximize it here? I believe he can and will, and this year is a great opportunity to explore that for the coaching staff. Davis can do things with his speed that Cooley cannot.
You know how football is, Cooley may go down in the 1st week. Davis offers insurance with upside.
Worst thing that could happen is trade Davis for a 4th, then Cooley goes down. Davis becomes a pro bowl caliber player for a different team. We spend the next 5-7 years looking for a quality tight end, amongst other needs. Keep Davis, all we miss out on is a 4th round pick, most likely a bench or rotational guy.
The negatives far outweigh the positives in my opinion.
This is precisely what I've been saying
to little avail. :)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
but Davis is a bench or rotational guy now...and for the next 3-5 years that would be the case
Sure Cooley could go down week 1 or even in preseason, but then again so could Davis.
It would be one thing if we were coming off an 11-5 or 12-4 season and we wanted to ensure our depth for a Super Bowl run. But this team isn’t built for that next year. So what’s the point about worrying about depth. If Cooley misses significant time, whats the worst that could happen? We lose one more maybe two games at most.
And again unless they completely revamp this offense, so where Davis is getting an extra 200-250 plays, and another 20+ catches it makes zero sense to keep him. Just marginally increasing his play count and catches def. isn’t worth a 4th round pick. And the way I see it is, if they weren’t willing to give Davis more plays and opportunities last year when we had no proven receivers behind Moss, and our backs weren’t major weapons, why would they this year after adding all that WR and RB talent in the draft.
I really can’t see the team keeping him after this year (unless Cooley suffers a major injury or something like that) and I don’t see him wanting to be here either, unless he is going to get 60-80 balls.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Keep both
With the small amount of talent we have on the offensive side of the ball, trading away the few players we have for mid rd. draft picks that might, or might not be able to make it in the NFL is not wise. If Davis does leave in Free Agency, we would receive a compensatory pick for him anyway. Keep & use both to give whoever is our QB more legitimate targets & options
but we are talking about having a high level of talent at one of the least important positions on the field
Let’s be honest here we have a high level of pass catching talent, as Cooley is a poor blocker and Davis is average at best. Our top two TE’s don’t compare to the Cowboys Witten and Bennent who are better in both receiving and blocking,
We simply don’t use two TE’s enough to make it worth while, and We’d have to significantly change our offense to do so.
And if Davis left in free agency there is no guarantee that we get a comp pick.for Davis. The way it works is we get a comp pick if two conditions are met. 1. we don’t sign more free agents than we lost (guys who are considered graded…i.e. signing a Kory Lichtensteiger type doesn’t count). But if we sign more guys than we lost even if they aren’t all as good, then we probably won’t get any (note their is a provision that they can give a 7th rounder in a situation like that, but it isn’t a guarantee). 2nd: If we sign a single player of greater than or equal value then they will cancel each other out. So even if we lose say Davis and say Carriker and Davis is worth a 4th (debateable) and Carriker a 6th, but we sign a big name FA for more money than Davis made he cancels that pick out. We still get the 6th for Carriker, but we got nothing for Davis.
The other issue with Comp. picks is we won’t get that value until the 2013 NFL draft. If Davis signs with someone next offseason (even if it is before the draft) you don’t see that pick until the following year. Also, I think Davis would need to make at least $6 million to be considered worth a 4th round comp. pick. This past year the only 4th rounders that were awarded were for guys that made at least $6 million a year, If Davis comes in a $5.75 or under we might not get more than a 5th rounder. And remember those numbers will only rise as FA prices rise.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
"Least important positions on the field"
You want me to start naming over the last 30 years teams offenses that went through their tight ends?
For 2010, I would use the patriots as an example (even though I despise them)
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 7, 2011 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions
but here is the thing a tight end's value is split more than any other skill position
so much of their value comes from their blocking ability. Wr’s have about zero value come from this area, and even Rb’s it’s probably under 20%. TE’s is probably closer to 50% (with some exceptions depending on the offense). So for us to have 2 pass catching TE’s neither one is really a ‘plus’ blocker, we are forfeiting a ton of value. Even the Patriots put a high premium on the TE blocking. Crumpler not Hernandez was on the field for a lot of those 2 TE sets because he is a far better blocker. If they were running the ball Crumpler had immense value and Hernandez was really just a body. That is why they drafted Lee Smith in the 6th round this year b/c he is a blocking TE.
The Redskins would be much better served to pick up a block first TE (maybe Crumpler if he gets cut) and rotate him and Paulsen behind Cooley.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
The compensatory picks are hard to predict
We just signed Atogwe & hopefully sign some O-line help but I think we will lose Moss & Rogers at the minimum, tho I really hope both stay, especially Rogers but your point is well made. My point is that we are so thin at any type of talent on the offensive side of the ball that to lose anyone is not a good move. Also, as you stated above, this is not a one year rebuild. Where will we be in a year or two when Cooley decides to pursue a career in broadcasting?? Davis is starting to show the promise he showed in college, if we could get a 2nd or a high 3rd then I would consider it but otherwise keep both for insurance & for available talent in the future
All of your reasons to trade Fred
Are reasons why we should trade Cooley. Fred is barely coming into his prime with a decent coaching staff around him.
Good article.
If you trade Chris, you're basically tear the heart out of the team
Chris Cooley has been the one bright spot through all of the crap that we have had to endure for the last 10 years. Fred Davis has been the poster boy for the 2008 draft-"all hat, no Cattle"
we still have not seen enough of Fred Davis to say he is better than Chris, I don’t give a crap what age they are (look at Tony Gonzalez)
if sleepy is so much better than Cooley, why have the Shanahan’s been playing him more?
Somewhere above somebody says "neither one of them will be in the Pro bowl" I agree that Fred probably never will be while on the Redskins roster, but Chris Cooley has been to the Pro bowl. Even in the mediocrity that has been the last seven years, he has been the one bright , consistent spot on offense. If the Shanahan’s ever get their offense on the road to better than mediocrity, you can bet Cooley will be back in the Pro bowl, no question.
If you want our coaching staff to be like the patriots, then go root for the patriots. Bunch of cheaters in my mind.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
Yes sleepy is so much better than Cooley, why haven't the Shanahan's been playing him more?
Freaking MacSpeech fail again-Grorrorrr!
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 7, 2011 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions
If it's the post I read, I think they said "they both won't make the Pro Bowl"
meaning two TEs on a team aren’t going to make it. Of necessity, one isn’t going to get enough time to make the PB, no matter how talented both are. That is an argument for not keeping two PB quality TEs. Of course, they said they were going to use a lot of two TE sets, but haven’t done it yet.
By the way, earlier in his career people said Fred Davis was not a good blocker (remember the spectacular miss on a crucial field goal?). Has he improved as a blocker? I get the impression that Chris is an excellent blocker.
All very good points
Neither player is a crushing blocker, but coolly very rarely wiffs on a block, I think Fred is blocking is exactly the reason he is not seen the field.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 8, 2011 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Davis is a better blocker, but he lacks consistency ...as he does throughout his game
That missed FG block was crucial, but he was def. a better run blocker than Cooley
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I'd say keep both
They are both very talented, and with our lack of recievers we should have been utilizing a 2 TE set (our one position of depth). If you are trading one, I say, as much as I hate the idea, you trade Cooley. We are a few years from being serious contenders and you wonder what Cooley will have left to contribute.
Wants to have a Bromance like Luke Scott and Felix Pie.
by Are you there Wieters? It's me, Mike. on May 7, 2011 6:43 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
davis is a bust.
if shanny really thought cooley was done and couldnt contribute to this team he would be gone last year. and when does davis play when cooley needs a breather or if cooley does go down with a injury which he never does look at the games started sin his rookie season the guy is a gamer he only missed time in 010 when he broke his ankle and it was the last 5 games of that year young or old davis cant shine cooleys jock davis is going to be a free agent thats the right time to make a deal i say a 3rd rounder at best and for people on here to say davis has the looks of a gates and shannon sharpe is outrageous try more on the lines of terry orr .
lohaus #54
How is Davis a bust?
Every game he gets time, he preforms well. You’re not a bust with 9 touchdowns as a backup in three years. 72 receptions as a backup tight end in an offense that doesn’t use two TE’s that much (Zorn and Shanny) isn’t exactly a failure.
In 2009, Cooley was put on IR after breaking his ankle in late October.
And just one last point, Cooley has 6 TD’s since 2008 compared to Davis’s 9. Cooley makes lots of receptions, but why wouldn’t Davis as the starter? He had more TD’s and has proven he can make the big play down the field. We all love Cooley, but we loved Portis as well. We loved LaVar, Champ, and the like but sometimes they have to go to benefit the team (although sometimes it doesn’t work out).
Fact is Davis is younger, healthier, and frankly better than Cooley at this point. Numbers don’t lie. Davis is the young guy. He fits with this new team of a young, high potential defense, an offense now ripe with recently drafted or UDFA playmakers, and John… yea John Beck.
I want Cooley to retire a Redskin. That would be great! Sadly, it may not happen. If it meant a 3rd rounder next offseason, I would do it. At this point, I’d like to keep both this year and really use them well. Why can’t Davis play some WR position a little? We’ll see, but this is a problem it’s nice to have.
by Andrew DeFrank on May 7, 2011 8:09 PM EDT up reply actions
It's a lack of value for that draft selection.
If not for the injury to Cooley, then Davis’s numbers are awful for that draft selection.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
exactly
he is a backup so why are we so worried about this? Could Davis doe the things Cooley does on the field? Sure, I’m not really disputing that. I think the off the field issue is the bigger thing.
My point is Davis really hasn’t done a lot for the Skins, in part b/c of their lack of utilizing him right, but also in part of his in consistency. Davis’s rookie year, he wasn’t even good enough to be our number 2 TE.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Andrew-six of those touchdowns were when Cooley was hurt.
You are also skewing the statistics by using " since 2008"-Cooley was hurt almost the entire year and that’s where Fred got most of his stats.
" numbers don’t lie"-you’re right most of the time they don’t, and they don’t this time… You just got it wrong because you don’t want to see the truth.
What you want to do is get a large statistical sample, and then look at averages per start-Fred is never been in the same class as Chris Cooley. He is at his chance to prove himself or three years, and he hasn’t. You can talk potential till you’re blue in the face, but it has not translated into performance. (See also Malcolm Kelly, Devin Thomas, Albert Haynesworth)
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 8, 2011 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Cooley's injury occurred on Oct 26, 2009
He missed the rest of the season. So, he played in about five games, or a third of the season. Davis came in and the team really didn’t miss a beat. He performed like a starting TE.
It was actually week 7 against Philly, Cooley went out either late in the 1st quarter or early in the 2nd quarter
and while I agree he preformed as well as a starting caliber TE, I don’t think he was as good as Cooley. No there wasn’t a huge drop off, but that is kinda my point Davis’s value is only really there if Cooley isn’t. Otherwise you are taking about a backup TE.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
so go get a davis jersey for years i watched this team trade or bring in all the wrong people that were supposed to do good for this team and doing something crazy like this should prove to all the fan base this team is really not commited to winning and is only concerned to try and sell tickets to put garbage on the feild like players like davis heyer and all of shannys clowns he brings in this year remember people davis is the second coming of antonio gates and cooley is nothing more then a old garbage bag ready to go to the dump i guess all of his hard work over the years dont mean nothing to this team aghhh thats the skins for you .
lohaus #54
It's not like that, guy.
Davis and Heyer only belong in the same conversation because at this moment, they collect paychecks from the same place. Davis is not trash, nor a clown. He’s the best thing we got out of that draft, and he was worth the value of the pick, though we should have gone another direction that year. The fact remains, we didn’t, we got a high-end tight end capable of playing as a true #1 and being very effective. If Cooley were never on this team, Davis would have been starting as a rookie. Who would have beaten him out, Yoder?
Cooley is a great player and a better Redskin. I’d not like to see him go, and I think we can keep Cooley and resign Davis too. However, if we truly ARE committed to winning, and we can’t keep them both, it’s quite obvious that Davis is priority. I’d rather send Cooley off elsewhere (not in the division!!!!) and keep Davis, for reasons I’ve quite logically spelled out in this thread. Four years younger, faster, bigger, and has shown the capability to be the #1 guy when the #1 guy was out for over half a season? Sign me up.
LOVE COOLEY but lets keep it young.
If Davis was the starter I believe he would produce great numbers. Cooley does a great job and will always be one of my favorite skins but if we can trade him for some good value I am all for it.
If the redskins trade away....
Their faster, younger, more athletic, more physically gifted, more durable, more productive tightend I’m done with this fucking team. While Cooley is and has been a fan favorite for a long time, it is that sort of devotion to "our favorite players" that have led to this aged roster. While it may be a hard pill to swallow for some on here, if you step back and think about it LOGICALLY, we should not be trading a younger, healthier player who is more likely to help us in the future. Restructure his contract and keep him. Trade or cut Cooley in the final year of his contract. Cooley has lost as step as a result of the injuries he’s sustained and that was clearly evident last year.
Davis is the far more explosive player, and cutting or trading the younger of to comprable players on all levels goes against everything we’ve been fighting for…an infusion of youth. Sometimes I really don’t understand the thought process of people on here…you say we need to get younger, but then turn around and say lets trade away our younger better TE. MAKES NO FUCKING SENSE AT ALL. Quit waffleing and stick to the fucking plan!!!
they go root for the cowboys how dare you say your done with the skins if they trade davis we dont need fans like that you act like davis has been to 10 pro bowls and we won 3 more superbowls get off the pipe we have paulsen we dont need people who beat women up in night clubs ans throw drinks in there face you never see cooley do that your done with this team if they trade davis you got some balls then leave the skins dont need you .
lohaus #54
Wrong answer.
How is trading an equally talented guy without nearly as much age in favor of keeping a 30 year old guy not the exact same thing as bringing in a high-dollar free agent 30 year old guy? We’ve played that music too much in the last ten years. The right guy in the right situation works, but in this case, we simply cannot lose Davis in favor of Cooley. We also simply cannot trade him for a 4 when he cost us a 2 to draft him just a few years ago, and in his limited time as a starter in 2009 looked every bit worth an even higher pick. Paulsen is competent, but not on the level of Cooley and Davis.
By the way, the period key is right next to the comma. You might want to locate them both.
by tuckwell on May 8, 2011 2:41 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
In response to Lohaus#54
Im saying Im done with the skins if they trade away a younger more explosive player just for the sake of keeping cooley because hes meant so much to us over his career. It goes against the supposed “youth movement” we are trying to instill at its very core issue: Trading away younger players and/or draft picks for aging veterans, whether they’re already on the team or not is besides the point. And by the way if you post your mailing address I’d be more than happy to send you a full assortment of hooked on phonix products you illiterate fuck. What education level do you have? A cracked out monkey with playing with his own shit could randomly bang out a more cohesive bunch of nonsense then what you just attempted. Have you ever seen one of these? (.)? its called a period. How bout one of these? (,) its called a comma. Tyring incorporating them into your brain before spewing illogical, illegible, unreadable bullshit. Get off my pip you bitch
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 8, 2011 11:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Are we playing grammar police?
-Apostrophe needed in “I’m” (twice in a row).
-“Cooley” is a proper noun and needs to be capitalized.
-Apostrophe needed in “he’s.”
-Two separate but related clauses should be separated by a semi-colon, not a colon.
-“Trading” should not be capitalized (whether after a colon OR semi-colon).
-“Phonics” is not spelled with an “x.”
-“Hooked on Phonics” should be capitalized, as it is a proper noun.
-“A cracked out monkey with playing with his own shit” shouldn’t include the first “with.”
-If a cracked out monkey playing with his own shit could randomly bang out something cohesive, it wouldn’t be nonsense.
-It’s “than what you just attempted,” not “then.”
-There should be an apostrophe before “’bout” to indicate that you are dropping the letter “a” at the start of the word.
-Another “its” that needs apostrophe.
-You’re looking for “Try incorporating,” not “Tyring incorporating.”
-After a harsh lecture on periods, you neglected to place one at the end of your post.
HAHAHAHAHAHA
You sir may be an even bigger loser than skins fan ’77. I was hastily typing out a response to the moron above me. Pardon me in my haste if i left out a few apostrophies and failed to end my post with a period. Did you understand what I was trying to say? Seems to me that you did. In which case my point was conveyed. Lohaus illegible poor excuse for a post was just pathetic. Get off my sack you post stalker..
Just in case you were wondering I added an extra period at the end of the statement just so you know that is then end you loser.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:24 AM EDT up reply actions
It's just that if you're going to criticize someone's grammar...
you might want to make sure your own is in order first. Otherwise, you might wind up looking like a foolish hypocrite.
Also, it was pretty easy to figure out what Lohaus was saying.
Let me translate:
“Then go root for the Cowboys. How dare you say your done with the Skins if they trade Davis. We don’t need fans like that you act like Davis has been to 10 Pro Bowls and we won 3 more Super Bowls. Get off the pipe. We have Paulsen. We don’t need people who beat women up in night clubs and throw drinks in their faces. You never see Cooley do that. You’re done with this team if they trade Davis? You got some balls. Then leave. The Skins don’t need you.”
Davis beat up women?
I thought he was proven to be innocent after a video in the night club proved that a beligerent woman went after davis first, and davis simply tossed his oj on her…..OOOOOoooo what a woman beater. Is lohaus you’re retarded love child or sibling? There seems to be an awful lot of man love going on with you towards him…..kinda sketchy…..
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:35 AM EDT up reply actions
And the sencond half is a perfect response
to the “cup the balls” game you and lohaus have going on.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:41 AM EDT up reply actions
As excited as I'm sure that prospect gets you...
I’ve never cupped, seen, licked, kicked, pinched, twisted, tickled, sucked, or nuzzled any of Lohaus’s body parts.
could have fooled me with the jump to defend him
otherwise you are infact the “hall monitoring” poindexter I called you earlier. Dont get mad at the fact that if this was infront of a live audience you’d be getting laughed off the stage right now. WHAMMIE!
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 1:06 AM EDT up reply actions
You and Lohaus must be
truck stop glory hole and airport mensroom buddies then right??
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
If this was in front of a live audience...
I wouldn’t be speaking or acting in nearly as restrained a manner as I am here.
The gay joke wasn’t very funny the first time. It hasn’t gotten any funnier the second, third, or fourth times.
Let me finish this conversation:
“You’re gay.”
“Nope.”
“You’re so gay.”
“Not really.”
“You’re way gay.”
“Okay.”
“You’re the gayest.”
you can see the future??
Hows this season going to pan out? whats next weeks lotto numbers? who will we draft next year. All im sayin is you pretty quick to defend the guy, sorry I hit a nerve. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I can see the future.
The Skins are going to win the Super Bowl. Next week’s lotto numbers are 12-15-33-41-52. Next year we won’t draft anybody (trading the whole draft to get back Fred Davis, who we’ll regret trading in the first place after he becomes the best TE in the leage). Please bet everything you’ve got on these outcomes.
Lohaus has nothing to do with it. I would defend anyone against the type of post you directed at him (I’m assuming Lohaus is a dude, just so your jokes will make sense).
this turd ball has a old jock of davis in his bedroom i got one for you semen breath watch reading rainbow with lavar burton you might learn something before you trah anyone else on here ya closet cowboy fan.
lohaus #54
HAHAHA
What? learn how to use a keyboard before attempting to write a cohesive response tard.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 11, 2011 3:15 AM EDT up reply actions
WTf? You just cut and paste the comment from earlier in the thread here?
Was that really necessary?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 8, 2011 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions
I posted it by mistake
Was taking the time to comment on an error really necessary?? get a fucking life you loser. Quit trying to pick a fight with anyone that doesnt agree with your idiotic opinion
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 8, 2011 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm sorry did I hurt your feelings?
Maybe we can all hold hands and sing coombyyah it will magically be all better. Who appointed you hall monitor poindexter?
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:20 AM EDT up reply actions
Just pointing out a fact.
You started picking fights, then told someone you picked a fight with not to pick fights.
No, you didn’t hurt my feelings. We can’t hold hands—this is the internet. Kumbaya is a stupid song. Nobody appointed me hall monitor; this isn’t even a hall. I appreciate that you at least got a bit creative in your name-calling toward me. Poindexter is a much better insult than just a random profanity.
Wow way to take things so literally
This isn’t really a hall?!?!? what was I thinking? This isn’t even fun anymore you’re just pathetic.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Sorry for failing to engage in your insult battle.
It’s just that this is a football message board where we talk about football. It’s not a middle school cafeteria where we compete to see who can dish out the most four-letter words.
You say this yet you go out of your way
to comment on evry single one of my responses with nothing football related. Who’s the hypocrite here again??? Four letter words? Pathetic, loser, prick, stalker, poindexter….yeah you’re right enough with the four letter words. Oh, wait…..yeah apparently you cant count either.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 12:40 AM EDT up reply actions
Never within the divison
I may entertain offers especially if you can include Albert or McNabb. I would never trade Davis within the division. I would prefer to keep him, but if you can parlay his talent and use it to add value to a package go for it. I would not trade him alone. He would have to be the guy that adds enough value to clear dead weight. He has too much potential to just trade without including guys you want to part with. Cooley is great, but Davis has more potential and at this point is less injury prone. I can’t see trading Davis unless it is a too good to be true situation.
I swear
I’ll bet Danny eats cereal with a friggin fork. This team really seems to have a thing for using tools the wrong way. Playing Haynesworth at NT. Playing Andre Carter in space as an OLB. Playing Fred Davis on the bench.
If this team would just utilize the talent they have more effectively, we wouldn’t even be dreaming of trading our TE’s. We could be running some awesome two TE sets with these guys in the stable. I doubt we would come out on top of trading Cooley or Davis for a draft pick. I would rather fantasize about player-for-player trades, because at least then you know what you are getting. Otherwise, sure, you’ll get younger, but it would remain to be seen if the team would get better.
Not being an apologist....but....
“Danny” doesn’t decide who plays where. He decides what they get paid…..and how much they get overpaid…..but he doesn’t decide where or when they play.
Yet another offseason......another few months for the Skins to "shine".
good point
all of those issues (among the many others of how players are used) fall on the coaching staffs shoulders
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I don't care who makes the calls
It’s still dumb. I added the Danny line for imagery.
If you are a Skins fan.....
you know we don’t need any extra “imagery” when it comes to Snyder!!! haha
Yet another offseason......another few months for the Skins to "shine".
I'm fine with player for player as long as we are getting someone under control for more than one season
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
If and when the Skins have more players with trade value this blog could have a different direction in the future.
At this point only TE and Safety are positions that could be said not having “proven need.” The more there are other positions that are solid, the more fans will have to make hard or wise choices (as though we could anyhow) between players. Whether it is 45 (game day) or 53 (active roster) those circumstances will develop. The blog is a luxury that the Team’s fans hopefully will not always have if they become a serious playoff contender.
Exactly, I want 80 players in camp fighting for 53 roster spots and eight practice squad spots.
And by 80 players I mean people not like Joey Galloway, Willie Parker, "backwards" Johnson, and the rest. It shows how pitiful and terrible talent was on this team that there were no clear winners any position , except tight end and strong safety.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 8, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
How old are you? Because you seem to have the maturity level of a 14 year old
Fred Davis and Chris Cooley flock for the starting tight end job during training camp of 2010. Chris won the job, Fred did not.
This decision was made by football minds much greater than yours or mine.
What happened at the tight end position last year, is exactly what I would like to see this season-open competition. If Fred wins this time against an "older, beat up coolly" then he will be the starter. If he cannot beat out a "less explosive, less physically gifted" Cooley, then he must not be as good a player as some people think he is.
If you’re going to use a phrase like "flip flopping idiot" you better be ready to defend as accurate.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 9, 2011 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
77, let it go, you may as well be arguing with a brick wall...
and that just might be an insult to brick walls everywhere.
by MagicHat on May 9, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll let it go now…
But I feel I must defend myself from such misapplied labels as that. Cuse’ is now in the same room as LJP as far as I’m concerned.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 9, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I feel like that's an insult to LJP.
LJP had some wild ideas, but at least he argued for them in a fairly civilized manner. LJP never ran around dropping four-letter bombs on everyone who disagreed with him.
Are you sure we're talking about the same LJP?
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I wasn't around much during the end of LJP...
but in all the discussions I had with him, I never saw anything like that.
If you say so, I’ll take your word for it.
haha he just gave out head butts and "azz slaps" instead
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Haha, I remember those.
But they were like friendly headbutts and azz slaps. Annoying, evasive, and discussion-stopping, but still friendly.
You left out one of my favorites-"chicken shick"
There was also "dumb azz"
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on May 9, 2011 1:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Reedskin
See my post above about four letter words. I called you a fuck once. ONCE. the only four letter word used the whole time you stupid fucking moron.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't think you understand the expression.
While “four-letter words” refers most specifically to profanities that actually have four letters, it can be broadly used as a euphemism for all kinds of vulgar language. I could care less about the language, really. The lamest part of your posts is that they’re primarily filled with personal insults, rather than just logical arguments.
You’ll notice that nobody else is running around calling you an “asshole,” “fuck,” “stupid fucking moron,” “loser fuck,” “idiot,” “dumb,” “retarded,” “bitch,” “prick,” or “poindexter.” We’re trying to discuss football. You’re discussing some football too, but you’re also insulting everyone when they disagree with you. That’s what people dislike about your posts. No one’s pissed because you have a different opinion.
I am a brick wall because I believe in my own opinion
Who appointed you all as the best opinionist’s regarding all things redskins? Wow CuseSkins thinks Davis may be a more productive player than cooley if given the same opportunity and is sticking to his guns,,,,that must make me an idiot brick wall right?? Fuck you all for judging me you dont know me. Am i not entitled to my own opinion and the option to stand by that opinion? And when people start personally attacking my credibility or questioning my fandom(if thats a word?) am I not allowed to get upset at the fact you apparently think Im some kind of idiot. You all should be working for the front office since apparently your ability to evaluate players is better than everyone elses.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions
When you say you're "done" with the Redskins if they trade Davis...
you’re questioning your own fandom.
I said I'm done with the redskins
Simply to imply I’m sick of the same old crap. If we’re supposed to be trying to get younger it makes no sense whatsoever to trade away our younger as talented, possibly more talented TE in favor of keeping the older cooley around bcuz of what hes meant to this team in the past. It goes against what the front office and management have been trying to do at its very core – GET YOUNGER! I dare you to say differently. If they continue to keep guys around just because of what they’ve done in the past, it shows we are still the same old skins not making the right personell decisions. They great teams in this league all seem to know when its time to cut ties with their players regardless of what the past accomplishments may have been.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 10, 2011 3:05 AM EDT up reply actions
I am ready to defend my statement
I truly think that given the amount of playing time COOLEY has received, davis would be much more productive. Again as I said above I would prefer not to get rid of either of them, I would like to offer davis an extension this season in order to save having to pay him 5+ mill or so to be our 2nd TE. I said several times that I have been one of cooleys biggest fans over the years and really appreciate what he has done for this team. In my opinion, and thats all that matters, I think given davis athletic abilty to play both TE or Split outside to be a big possesion reciever for this team is really unerscored by the fact that cooley has garned so much loyalty from the fanbase and coaching staff for what he done here in his previous years. Davis is definately faster than almost any lineback who’d cover him, and is too big for most corners or safteis in this league to be “bodied” out of a play.
You say that cooley beat out davis last year for the starting spot bcuz shanny said eveyone would be compteing for their starting jobs. While this maybe true, is it possible that cooley just picked up the new offensive scheme quicker than davis during training camp, thus making him the more obvious choice of being the starter. Davis made some great plays last year stratching the defense while guys like moss and cooley were deployed as decoys or were just simply not open. Becasue thats what I think happend. Remember, Shanahan hasnt proved since he’s been here with regards to player evaluation. If anything the McNabb trade and return of the over the hill gang last year clearly signify the fact that once shanny gets something in mind he has to see it with his own eyes not working out before he will go another direction.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
And Skins fan '77
You still are a flip flopping idiot. Only now, you’re a fucking asshole flip flopping idiot. Im 27 years old by the way, graduate from Syracuse University in 200^ and received the deans list award for all of my hard work. Im not some done 14 yr old kid running around with some wierd devotion to fred davis. I truly think he could be better than cooley has given his overall athleticism, hopefully the mental aspect catches up to the level of that athletisism becuase if it does he could be one hell of a player.
by CuseSkinsfan1 on May 9, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Nobody cares where/if you went to college.
Any judgement of your intelligence can only be based on what you post here.
Guys just let it go.
I know this is the pot calling the kettle black from some of the posts I used to get into. But we’re all adults, some stupid things were said and this is going on Day 2. Just let it go and both of yall just walk your separate ways.
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
These kind of posts drive me nuts...
“Should we trade Fred Davis”?
If you’re going to do a series of these posts then you have talk about the compensation. For example…Would you trade Fred Davis for a 4th RD pick in 2012? NO
But a 3rd and we’re talking, but that is probably a little high for him.
Every play is on the block for the right compensation.
@Diesel__44 on twitter.
Still Dont get it ?
Sorry, but keeping Cooley at the expense of trading the younger, more athletic Davis is exactly the kind of move that perpetually crappy teams make. The Niners let players like Lott, Montana, even Rice go to make room for younger players during their run. It is the only way to stay on top. Keep all 3 TE’s and find a way to utilize them but, if one has to go then trade the oldest, Cooley, and get maximum value
by shally on May 8, 2011 11:45 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Keeping all three TE's is the last move a team like the 49ers in their heyday or the
Steelers, Pats and Packers would do now. Trading Cooley could be an option, I just don’t see it. I think the leadership, hard work and consistency will win out for Cooley.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
SteveO is right guys...
I just don’t see Davis sticking around after this season…Shanny doesn’t seem to high on him. Cooley is under contract and like Steve said, he is one of the only team leaders on the Skins. If we were the Patriots or another team that used TWO receiving tightend sets then that would be completely different. But we aren’t…we just drafted 3 RECEIVERS (and don’t forget about AA), so obviously more 3 RECEIVER SETS are here to stay. No doubt I think that using Cooley and Davis in a TWIN TE formation would have been sweet (I was screaming at my TV all last year for it!), but the writing is on the wall. Davis just isn’t on the field enough to warrant Re-signing him to a Starting TE salary ($5 mill+). While I have considered keeping Davis and trading Cooley (it would hurt saying goodbye to Captain Chaos) to get younger, I just don’t think we have the right team chemistry and locker room to take a hit like that. I just think with Davis, regardless of our opinion, is probably on his way out…So, Steve O is right…why not get a mid round draft pick?
Thanks!
Yeah I’m not saying Davis isn’t capable, just that there is no indication that he would be used in a way to warrant keeping him beyond next season, and I appreciate you trying to clear that up.
If we give the starting role of 1,000+ snaps, and 70-90 catches to either TE we will be quite happy (and they will too) with the production. Unfortunately having the best number 2 TE in the league (which would still be debatable) isn’t going to win us any championships. The only way it makes sense is if that number 2 TE is getting 60% of the snaps and catches as the number 1, and I don’t see that happening here. Last year it would have made sense, now I think its not a feasible option.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
It's about value.
How long does Cooley have left playing at his current effectiveness? We have a guy four years younger that is basically the same player. If we let that guy go, then we have to address the position again in the next three or four years as Cooley fades out. If we keep him, we don’t have to address that position. Trading Davis would be foolhardy and a horrible business decision. Trading Cooley would be a bad PR decision, but not a bad business decision. Thus, if one has to go, Cooley goes, Davis starts.
See i don't get where trading Davis is a bad business decision
Cooley at worst has 3 more productive years (which he is under contract for), but at best could have 6 or 7 more productive years. Plenty of top level TE’s have stayed highly productive until their mid-30’s so it is by no means out of the question. Now obviously this is unrealistic since one of these guys will be on another team in another situation, but if you put these two TE’s in the exact same situation and gave them 70+ balls they would put up relatively equal numbers, maybe Davis would be better, but i’d say there is just as good of a chance that Cooley would be slightly better. And I think that test would be good for the next 4 years easily. After that Davis might start to separate from Cooley, but I still think it would be closer than you think.
Yes Davis had more YPC last season, but that was because of two singular passes (and one hell of a block by Portis) for the most part Davis’s catchers were inside 10 yards. Those two catches against Philly and the Texans accounted for 133 of his 316 yards, take those away and his YPC are going to look pretty average. Now look I love the fact that Davis brings that to the table, but given the sample size those two catches skew his numbers pretty extremely.
Trading Davis would save a couple of million while bringing back a mid-round pick that would cheaply handle a roster spot. Sure it is a risk, but that is what smart teams do.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Yeah, Cooley MIGHT have 6 or 7 more productive years.
He might be Tony Gonzalez. Or, he might not, he might have one or two left. Maybe he blows out a knee or sustains a really bad concussion that shortens his career. The point is, he’s got four more years of NFL wear and tear than Davis, and if there’s a drop off between them, it’s minuscule. There really is no choice here; either you keep both, or you trade the older player. You don’t trade your youth who don’t just have potential but have proven it on the field for a “mid-round pick that would cheaply handle a roster spot.” I think you have what smart teams do backwards. Yes, you try to keep your skill and experience on the roster, but if you can’t get both, you keep youth. Seriously. Trade Davis, and before 2015 we’ll have to spend a pick on a TE in the top half of the draft, or sign a FA for the same money we could have resigned Davis. This makes no sense at all. Keep Davis, and we’re set through 2018 or so for top flight TE play.
I'm sorry you trade players that benefit you...i don't care if they if they are 3 years into the league or 13
The perfect example is the Packers… They traded Brunell, Hasselbeck and Aaron Brooks all because they knew that Favre still had enough in the tank. And then when it was time they finally moved on to Rodgers. It’s simply not that time for Cooley right now, the guy is 29 years old and is still getting it done. Sure this situation is a bit different b/c Davis has a slight role on the Redskins, but essentially he’d be a backup. And if you trade Cooley to make room, I’m fine with that. I just don’t see it happening. He is too much the heart and soul of this team, and that’s a role that Davis just isn’t ready to take over.
So what if we need to use a 3rd or a 4th pick in 3 or 4 years, there isn’t anything wrong with that. And who knows we can spend a 6th or 7th in between and might find a better option.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Stevo26-
For the love of GOD. What would you expect in return if we traded Davis? Long thread, 300+ comments and not on F’in comment about the compensation.
@Diesel__44 on twitter.
I think we can legitimately get 3rd round value for him
It will likely be a late 3rd since I think most interesting parties will be contending teams looking to make a SB run. It could end up being a 4th and 6th from a team, but I think 3rd round value is very feasible.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
We drafted him in the 2nd round
What/who could we get with the 3rd round pick that would be of comparable value? Don’t see it happening – it will still be a net loss IMO.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
what round we drafted him in has no bearing on what his trade value is
With only one season on his deal remaining and the fact that the Redskins haven’t utilized him has lowered Davis’s value
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
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