Who Should Play Right Tackle?
by Parks Smith on May 24, 2011 10:58 AM EDT
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Whenever this offseason "opens" up the Redskins need to hit the ground running on free agency. There is one glaring hole, in my mind, that needs to be addressed first and foremost, and that is hole at Right Tackle. Right now there are two front runners to fill the void, but which option would be the best for the Redskins?
Option 1: Re-sign Jammal Brown
Pros: This past year was Brown's first time on the right side since his rookie campaign with the Saints in 2005. He struggled at the beginning of the season, while he was recovering from injury, but seemed to be improving as the season went on. Clearly Brown is now familiar with the system and would bring continuity to the line. Also there shouldn't be many other suitors for Brown willing to pay him what he wants, so he could come relatively cheap for the Skins.
Cons: My primary concern is that Brown is now 30 and seems to have lingering injury concerns. He certainly is not the same Jammal Brown that we saw as an All-Pro in New Orleans, so the question is can he regain that form or come close to it? It's also odd to me that he wasn't re-signed or extended in the small negotiating window this winter.
Option 2: Sign Ryan Harris
Pros: Harris is 26 years old, so signing him to play RT would immediately make the line a lot younger. He was also a Shanahan draft pick in Denver, when he was taken in the 3rd Round out of Notre Dame. So clearly Shanny thinks highly of Harris and he's comfortable with him in the ZBS. Also, Harris shouldn't break the bank and would fit nicely into Bruce Allen's budget.
Cons: The past two years Harris has only started 18 games, which makes me very wary. Also, the same Brown situation applies here, if Harris is a solid RT then why are the Broncos willing to let him walk and why didn't they lock him up?
Wild Cards: There will certainly be a number of other players available that could fill in, including: Jared Gaither, Doug Free, Jermon Bushrod, Matt Light, and Willie Colon. But is the ultimate wild card and long term solution moving Trent Williams over to RT? He's said to be better suited there, but I definitely do not think it is in our best interest to make the move this year.
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Heyer didn't make the poll? ha.
"If everyone is thinking alike, somebody isn't thinking." -George S. Patton
Hogs Haven. On Twitter..
I know I'm going to get shit for this
but I think Heyer is a more serviceable RT than he gets credit for. No, he is not who we should ever want as our starter but in fairness the guy has never been allowed to get comfortable in a position through no real fault of his own.
by SkinsOsTerps on May 24, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
I thought
Heyer looked better at RG
by Kia.Area51 on May 24, 2011 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
He did step up in the game against the Titans
his physical build may ultimately be what limits him from finding a role there.
by SkinsOsTerps on May 24, 2011 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
too bad he said he didnt want to play it ever again.
I agree tho.
"If everyone is thinking alike, somebody isn't thinking." -George S. Patton
Hogs Haven. On Twitter..
by Kevin Ewoldt on May 24, 2011 12:59 PM EDT up reply actions
If he doesn't then he needs a stern talking to from DeAngelo Vickers
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
too bad he's from Maryland.
I actually love when Maryland players play for the Skins. But he was hard to watch. Maybe Kevin Barnes will surpise us all.
Fear the Turtle!
by HailToTheRedskins on May 25, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
What about the other OL holes
like LG, C, and RG?
I voted for Brown because I think he was still recovering last year and he’ll keep improving.
They will probably be in other posts titled something like: "Who should play Right Guard"
or
“Who should play Left Guard”
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on May 24, 2011 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
Seems like a stretch
Your post-naming, that is…. :)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Get Extreme.
Get Right Guard.
Should be the title, and Bam Margera should be in it somehow. And a green stripe.
Charles Barkley.
Anything less would be uncivilized.
The Washington Wizards: providing career scoring nights for unknown opposing bench players since 2004.
thats a Tuurrible idea.
you’s a knucklehead
Fear the Turtle!
by HailToTheRedskins on May 25, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Brown...
I can’t believe we made a trade for him that gave up two picks knowing he only had one year left on his deal. That was a waste because now we are in the difficult position of having to figure out whether to retain a 30-year-old tackle who was decent at best last year…
I hope the staff knows what to do with him, because there are a ton of other options out there. Willie Colon is pretty good and Jared Gaither might be a decent replacement. Brown’s best case scenario is having another good two or three years, tops, so I think we may be better off looking elsewhere. Shame to have burnt so many picks on him.
At this point, I think Jammal Brown is the best option.
His performance noticeably improved as the season wore on as he regained mobility, and he has a dominating skill-set when fully healthy. I believe the Skins may have offered him a low contract consistant with his recent production, but he probably wants to test the market for a better deal. Allen seemed clear that there were guys he wanted to resign, Brown seems obvious to me.
Option A has to be Brown, in my opinion, providing they get him at the right price, which I believe they will.
Option B has to be Harris in my mind. He has familiarity with the system and Shanahan.
Option C is of course Heyer or Capers, yikes.
Option D, and A as well in my opinion, is to sign an undrafted tackle like Willie Smith or David Mims, though he might be better at guard, to groom and challenge Heyer and Capers for a roster spot.
I wouldn’t recommend signing an expensive free agent, not this year. Let Trent secure the left tackle position this season. If he does not, then move Trent over next season, and draft or sign another left tackle next year.
All I know is...
we better get one of them. I voted for Harris, subject to his age, natural position, familiarity. I was thrilled when the trade was made last year, and I don’t regret having JB on the team. What was paid for has been paid for; we move on. The OL needs youth desperately. I would love Monty taking over for Casey, allow TW and Licht to grow together on the left side and sign a FA for RG (Yanda or Dahl or Chester or Joseph) to team with Harris for the right side. Let’s see what some of the young guys (Capers, Fulton, RG drafted from Florida) have to offer.
In order for the Skins to have a decent 2011 season they still need help at RT, C, LG, and RG. Read the details.
The balance between two RTs is a mixed bag issue. The issue of ZBS does not weigh that much in the choice of these two players. In his prime Jammal Brown would have been an obvious 1st choice, but the injury issue is a more serious question. Brown did not rate that well with Pro Football Focus for the season, although better towards the end.
“Offensive Line
Not one of Washington’s O-lineman who played more than 100 snaps had a positive rating. [inserted -Every Redskin linemen who played at least 100 snaps graded out in the red. Center Casey Rabach (-14.3) is a free agent. Korey Lichtensteiger (-8.4) and Artis Hicks (-9.0) was very poor at guard. Will Montgomery (-2.9) were slightly less bad. Still, it wouldn’t take a lot for Hurt to be better than all of them.] Rookie left tackle Trent Williams showed the struggles we’ve come to expect of rookie offensive tackles and Jamaal Brown failed to show why the Redskins gave up 2nd and 3rd round picks for him. He struggled even before the injury in New Orleans and failed to improve in DC. Brown ended up ranked 63rd amongst offensive tackles while Williams was 65th (of 78 qualifying). […] It’s unlikely the Skins will look to replace either offensive tackle considering the resources they used to acquire each but it would be wise to look out for possible upgrades on the interior. Marshal Yanda is a nice versatile option and Evan Mathis is a cheaper guy with a lot of potential. Shanahan will likely keep an eye out for later round prospects in the draft.” After a difficult first season in Washington, Jammal Brown (1.2) closed the season with one of his better games of the season against the Giants. It still wasn’t a vintage display, but yielding only a hit and a pressure in pass protection is a solid return at least. It graded as his second best performance of the season in pass pro after his perfect display against the Eagles in Week 4. Of concern for the Redskins will be his continuing struggles as a run-blocker. Brown has graded negatively as a run-blocker nine times this season." http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2011/01/05/re-focused-week-17-giants-at-redskins/. Week 11 Titans – "Offensive tackle Jammal Brown (-0.7) had a mixed day, grading well in the run game — able to display his strength at times — but surrendering four pressures and a hit in pass protection for a solidly negative grade (-2.7).http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/11/24/re-focused-week-11-redskins-at-titans/. Week 6 Colts -“If people were wondering how an ex-Pro Bowler like tackle Jammal Brown (-6.7) was seen as expendable by a team that now has Jermon Bushrod at LT, the last two Washington games should be evidence enough. In those games he’s allowed two sacks, two hits and 11 hurries and given up a penalty. If that wasn’t enough, his run blocking was substandard in both games — the Redskins may be left with no option but to put underwhelming Stephon Heyer back on the right side.” http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/10/18/re-focused-week-6-colts-at-redskins/. Week 5 Packers – "Tackle Jammal Brown (-6.2) made the Pro Bowl in 2008 without really earning it, and he continued with his poor performance in this game. He allowed a sack, two hits and three pressures in just 27 pass plays before he was benched for Stephon Heyer (0.6), who only allowed one pressure in 32 pass plays." http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/10/12/re-focused-week-5-packers-at-redskins/. Week 1 Cowboys – “RT Jammal Brown (-2.5) had an underwhelming return to NFL action as he split snaps with backup Stephon Heyer. Brown’s pass protection was solid enough (2 pressures conceded) but his run blocking was poor (-2.6) as he failed to get on top of Marcus Spears or any of the Cowboys’ linebackers. This performance against the Cowboys fits in with the picture of the player we felt the Redskins were getting after his 2008 season (-3.5).” http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2010/09/18/re-focused-week-1-cowboys-at-redskins/. PFF Pre-season assessment – " 2010 Brown is a reclamation project after a so-so 2008 performance (where he was our 47th-ranked tackle) and a lost year in 2009 to injury. Overrated throughout his career, he gives up too much pressure and penalties, but as a strong run-blocker (+7.7 rating), maybe the move to the right side will be the making of him."
Ryan Harris is not that good of a RT choice either.
Note in the following list of players that someone downloaded from PFF, that Yanda rated 17.4, Clabo 10.8, O’Callaghan 4.9, Locklear 2.0 [with a -8.1 on pass blocking (PBl)], and Harris -.9 [PBl .6]. The guard ratings had six players that were worth a shot at acquiring in free agency.
NFL rank Player Pos Age Team Sn10 OvGr PBl ScBl RunBl Penalty ‘09 Grade 2
Marshal Yanda …….26 BLT… 1021 17.4.. 4.2.. 0.5… 10.6… 2.1…. -3.3 4
Tyson Clabo………. 29 ATL… 1153 10.8.. 5 0 -0.4….. 6.2… 6.6 – -
Ryan O’Callaghan… 27 KC…… 159… 4.9.. 2.2 -0.5 2.2 1 -15.1 8
Sean Locklear…….. 29 SEA……997 2 11 0 -8.1 -0.9 -1.2 11
Ryan Harris………. 25 DEN….. 668 -0.9 0.6 3 -4 -0.5 -1.2 18
Langston Walker…. 31 OAK….. 995 -3.6 -14.7 0 12 -0.9 -1.8 – -
Corey Hilliard……. 25 DET…… 271 -4.4 -2.5 1 0 -2.9 – - 24
Jeromey Clary……. 27 SD…… 1104 -12.6 -8.9 0.5 -5.4 1.2 5.6 26
Stephon Heyer…….27 WAS…. 384 -13.4 -8.3 0.5 -1 -4.6 -19.0 27
Wayne Hunter……. 29 NYJ….. 361 -13.4 -8.9 0 -0.7 -3.8 -4.4
NFL rank Player Pos Age Team Sn10 OvGr PBl ScBl RunBl Penalty ’09..
Carl Nicks (RFA).. 25…. .NO 1126…. 26.2.. 6.3 -0.5. 20.2…. 0.2….. 24.9
Harvey Dahl……… 29…ATL 1171… 14.4.. 7.1. 1.5. 4.3 1.5 6 12
Justin Blaloc………27… ATL 1171…. 9.4… 1.1. 1.5 1.3 5.5 -7.7 14
Mike Brisiel……… 27… HST 510….. 9.1… 3.1.. 0.5 5.1 0.4 0.8 17
Evan Mathis……… 29…. CIN 114….. 6.2… 1.1. 0.5 4.1 0.5 17 23
Chris Chester……. 28…. BLT 880….. 3.9… 1.5..2.5 -2.2 2.1 2.3 26
Will Montgomery…27… WAS 429… -1.2… 2.8 0 -3.9 -0.1 -3.8
http://www.sportpost.com/news/5558833496c82ee829c0f7381f4e460f
first of all I will apologize for replying here without reading the whole post...
I generally don’t do that, but I disagree with the “headline” right off the bat. I firmly believe we can achieve and possibly surpass “decent” with st two additions. We can all agree we need to address the RT position, and that Rabach is a major liability. I will go with the assumption that your stats above are from the 2010 season, numbers like this are not a fixed evaluation, I believe everyone will improve to some degree just from being in the system for a year (although the shortened off-season will hurt). Cook and Capers are obviously unknown quantities, and I don’t expect either to start, but then we really don’t know. Also we will always have to agree to disagree that player evaluations lie solely in statistics (re: the Hankerson post where someone was making a point by posting Art Monk’s “less than stellar” career numbers. Not that upgrades at two positions will brings to elite or dominating status….but decent? yes I think we can achieve that.
by MagicHat on May 24, 2011 4:16 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
It's interesting this year that by my count we will face nine 3-4 defenses, while last year we only faced two that I could remember.
How does everyone think this will effect our o-line or should it not matter at all?
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
It tells me we better get a stud center soon.
Every year now, lately, teams are prioritizing the center position in the draft. It is no longer a throw away pick. If your center can’t handle the other team’s nose, you’re in trouble. If he can, well, that changes everything.
Of course, our guards couldn’t handle the opposition’s tackles either. Lichtensteiger did show some decent improvement. Between Monty, Cook, and Hurt, there is a chance one of them shines this year to stake a claim on the other guard spot.
No one on the roster, or free agency for that matter, looks capable of supplanting Rabach in my opinion, which is sad indeed. Might be time to start thinking about looking at next year’s center prospects, and drafting a stud to combat these growing 3-4 and hybrid defenses that are becoming so prevalent. My humble opinion only.
I don't think it effects it overall, but it does mean the center position is going to be key this year
if we lose the battle there, then we are going to struggle all-around.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on May 24, 2011 10:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Insert my traditional caveat about PFF
They have lots of numbers and charts, but when you look underneath the charts at their methodology you will realize that their grading system is inherently subjective. And on top of that, there’s not way of telling the qualifications of the people doing the grading.
So citing to it for support is like citing to Wikipedia. It sounds good and can be a tool or a starting point, but the information may not be accurate and should not be taken as authoritative.
/caveat
by d_c_guy on May 24, 2011 5:09 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
Thank you!!!
This PFF thing is starting to get on my nerves a bit, statistics are useful if you are using known quantities to compare. However watching the O-Line this year, it was quite clear that they were make vast improvements as the season progressed. For example, just from watching, I found that we were markedly better rushing the ball to the left than the right earlier in the season, but as the season progressed Torain was a lot more comfortable rushing the ball either side of the line at the end of the season. The same was true with the early porousness (is that a word?) of the Line on its pass protection, to the length of time Sexy Rexy was given to make plays for the last three games. We need to improve Centre, re-sign Brown and I think we are pretty solid this year compared to last.
by Toosy_13 on May 24, 2011 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree.
I like PFF myself, but only as a supplemental evaluation tool. Their grading is too subjective and inexplicable for me as well. Football Outsiders offers some decent analysis also, but again only as a supplement. Nothing beats the eyeball test when all is said and done in my opinion.
In my opinion,. Brown was a much better player when the season ended then he was when it began. He clearly was hobbled for much of it, and his play continued to get stronger each week. I would expect him to be a solid player for the next few years. That he wants to return to left tackle implies, to me at least, that he has the confidence still to be dominant. I would be quite surprised if they don’t resign him.
by JDC15 on May 24, 2011 5:53 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
here's the problem with that the eyeball test doesn't come close to telling the whole story
saying that Brown played better as the season wore on and we should retain him is flawed logic. That logic is saying that we should sign Brown simply because he managed a decent game or two at the end of the year. So if Brown had his decent games at the beginning of the year instead we shouldn’t resign him? Look at Orakpo, he didn’t do much at the end of the year, that doesn’t mean he’s a bad player. His positives for the year far outweighed his negatives at the end. The same goes for Brown but in reverse. His negatives throughout the year far outweigh his positives, and that is what it should be based off of.
So what him and his agent were lauding his play at the end of the year b/c he was ‘healthy’, what else are they going to say. Especially since he was weeks away from becoming an unrestricted free agent.
There is no evidence to point that he can keep up his performance over a sustained period of time, and that is worrisome. As is the fact that his injuries (both knees and hip) are chronic injuries, they are all likely to flare up again. So signing him to any long period of time is a huge risk, esp. since we don’t really have proven backups.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on May 24, 2011 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm not discounting the possibility that his good games just happened to come at the right time.
However, I think we all know that when you come back from any kind of surgery, it takes time to get back to full speed—in some cases it takes over a year. This had to have had some effect on his performance throughout the year. How much, I’ll admit, is difficult to say.
I’d agree with the idea that signing him long term is a bad decision, given his injury history. I’d like to see us bring him back AND look at picking up a Ryan Harris-type or drafting a guy next season.
Don't try tell this to Steveo
He has something stuck in his head about Brown. He fails to recognize the injuries as something that may have contributed to his slow play.
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
No, I just don't take Brown's or his agent's word that he is 100% healthy
I know injuries played a factor, but if he was healthy enough to suit up for 15 games and play 85% + of the snaps then I don’t think injuries can be an excuse for playing awful. Honestly Heyer at RT was roughly just as effective as him (maybe slightly more so…LT is a different story).
And since college Brown has had major injuries to both knees and his hip, does that sound promising for a 30 year old player? Sure Colon, Harris and Gaither have had some injuries, but they are 2, 4 and 5 years younger respectively. Also they haven’t had as serious and/or as many injuries as Brown has had. Is there a chance that Brown makes 16 starts at a high level (of his 14 starts this year, maybe 4 were at a high level) sure, but it’s what maybe 25 % and that is really generous.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Yeah there is that possibility, but
Shanahan runs complex schemes that are difficult to learn in a single off-season! I think it has to do also with the fact that as the season wore on, and he played and understood the scheme, that it was a combination of these and his fitness that allowed him to be a lot more productive by season’s end!
Sorry d_cguy, but when the PFF's staff evaluates film of 1000 snaps for an OL starter there would tend to be
con-travailing errors in that would balance out each other with such a large number of observations. I worked for 34 years as a statistician and had plenty of opportunity to see such phenomena. So your caveat doesn’t really hold much water in all of the aspects you claim. You say that “there’s not way of telling the qualifications of the people doing the grading.” This sort of thing is true for the newly initiated, i.e., everyone tends to be under qualified when new but overcome this issue with experience.
PFF is not a new system and no doubt it has improved since it inception. Over the last several years Khaled Elsayed has done a significant number of PFF articles on OL. In other words he is no novice. Nevertheless, PFF evaluations have merit. Two players often mentioned as free agent possibilities do not look that good when viewed through PFF ratings. In particular, Ryan Harris appears to be no better than an average OT (overall rating in 2010 = -.9) and Davin Joseph: week 1 -5.5, week 2 -5.3 (http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/tag/davin-joseph/) .
Likewise similar player evaluations on Football Outsiders do not present Joseph in a good light – (Debunking Three Tampa Bay Buccaneers Myths Using Game Charting http://www.bucsnation.com/2011/5/12/2168237/debunking-three-tampa-bay-buccaneers-myths-using-game-charting and http://www.hogshaven.com/2011/5/16/2173995/myth-busting-davin-joseph
Myth #2: Davin Joseph is a stud
Davin Joseph was drafted 23rd overall in 2006, made the Pro Bowl as an alternate after the 2008 season and by all accounts has been the best player on the Bucs O-line in the past 5 years. He’s also a free agent who will likely command a high price on the free agent market. No one would blame you for thinking he had a great 2010 Season when on the field (he missed 5 games with an injury), but that’s pretty far from the truth. Well, game charting tells me differently. To evaluate offensive linemen I’ll use the ‘blown blocks’ metric, which simply measures the amount of times a lineman blew a one-on-one block that led to a QB pressure, a sack, a QB hit or a tackle for loss. This means stunts and blown assignments aren’t counted, as it’s hard to assign blame without knowing the assignments in those cases.
Davin Joseph was the worst Bucs guard by my count, blowing 14 blocks in 11 games started, or 1.3 blown blocks per
game."
Interview with Pro Football Focus founder Neil Hornsby (Part 1) -
http://www.windycitygridiron.com/2011/2/1/1967794/interview-with-pro-football-focus-founder-neil-hornsby-part-1
by Jefferson1935 on May 24, 2011 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
This is precisely why I hope they tread very carefully thru the free agent minefield.
Guys like Joseph and Harris will expect to be paid much more than their production warrants. Likewise, Yanda, Colon, and Clabo will demand huge contracts or compensation due to their high degree of productivity.
Obviously if Brown and his agent can command a huge contract, then he should walk. But Jammal has been virtually ineffective or absent for 2 years, and his age and injury issues would appear to give the Skins a strong bargaining position. For me, he is a no-brainer resign for the price they should be able to get him at.
I think we also need to keep in mind that Trent is no lock as the future left tackle. He has plenty to prove there in my opinion, and spending big money on a right tackle right now would be unwise. Trent has shown tremendous ability and flash, but very inconsistant, and Shanahan’s numerous remarks about his work ethic are unsettling. Brown is as good a signing as they can make this year for the short term, again my opinion, as he can play both sides, and should be had at a reasonable price.
but here's the thing
Brown’s not going to sign for just 1-3 years…this is his last big contract so he is going to milk it. He’s easily in the 4-6 year range of signing, and he’ll want at least 51% guaranteed (and likely closer to 55%). While his actual value will be somewhat based on the new Cap numbers, I think the minimum is $6 million and could be closer to $8 million. I think that is insanely high, but people will pay for that Pro Bowl talent, even if there is an injury history and he is coming off a spectacularly awful year.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on May 24, 2011 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, we won't know until we know.
It appears likey that free agency will be very hectic and condensed. The top tier guys will set the market in short order. 2nd and 3rd tier guys will be left scrambling for crumbs in all likelyhood. Brown will try to establish himself as a top tier guy, but is he? His age, recent play, and injury history really hurts him, especially with younger players also on the market.
It doesn’t matter what he asks for, it only matters what the market values his worth at. We will have to see what happens, but I would bet he will be left scrambling. The Skins also have to do a better job with their homework. Their medical staff and trainers missed the boat on him last year with their evals of him. They better put him thru the full plate of testing before deciding his value. Or any other player for that matter.
True, but even after the draft a number of teams need Tackles, in particular LT's
With that much demand and recent history showing teams overpaying for tackles with even worse track records than Brown’s I think he gets his big deal. (I went into more detailed analysis on both the demand and recent history below in response to Parks)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on May 24, 2011 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Thank you Jefferson I agree completely
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on May 24, 2011 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions
Mike Brewster, center from Ohio State.
Should be targeted with the 2nd pick in next year’s draft, in my opinion. Only way to get a stud center is to draft them early, or pay through the nose for them later.
They ignored the position this year again, so we have what we have. Rabach, Licht, Monty, Cook, and scrubs in FA. At some point, they will have to spend some early draft picks on interior linemen, preferably a center.
Trent @ LT and Harris @ RT...
…or Gaither @ LT and Trent @ RT.
Young, athletic G (Yanda?) in FA. Shanny likes Corey L as the other G and Rabach (sighs) will be around, for at least the first half of next season.
Capers, Cook, Montgomery, Fulton, Oldenburg, Hicks and at least one FA to compete for roster depth.
by Stephen Beagrie on May 24, 2011 5:39 PM EDT reply actions
Heyer will be gone.
Someone will offer Jamaal Brown LT money.
by Stephen Beagrie on May 24, 2011 5:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Who?
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on May 24, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I tend to agree that someone will pay him too much. teams routinely overpay for that "Pro Bowl talent"
sure his injuries and ineffectiveness will keep him behind guys like Gaither and Free (though of course Gathier is coming off an injury filled year), but someone will give an average of $6-8 million. I know that seems insane but look at recent history:
2008: Sean Locklear signed a deal that averaged about $6.5 million, he restructured last year to reduce his salary and become a UFA this year. He won’t get that much money again, but it just shows what a waste that deal was.
Flozell Adams: 6 years $43 million, another deal that didn’t reach it’s end, but the beginning was still painful. Adams was 3 years older than Brown is, and had a number of injuries (he was coming off a better year though).
(both of the above deals the teams were able to not have as much as a cap impact by using the uncapped year to cut or reduce their salaries)
2009: Jordan Gross got a $10 million average, but I don’t think Brown is in that range.
Veron Carey: got 6 years $42 million. He’s a good but not great RT (could play guard as well, but he really isn’t a LT in anyones eyes)
Max Starks: 4 years $26.5 million. Starks wasn’t even a fulltime starter the two years prior to this deal and had been average at best in the past, yet he still got nearly $7 million.
2010: Shawn Andrews: 6 years $32.5 million, Andrews missed all of 2009, and played in only two games in 2008, yet he still got a $5.5 million average. He is likely to get released this year since he was banged up most of the season. But the Skins won’t be able to do a deal like the Giants did with a new CBA.
Chad Clifton: 3 years $20 million. Clifton got nearly $7 million a year despite coming off a season where missed significant time and struggled for a number of weeks as well. Clifton was 33 at the time, and while it worked out in year one, the Packers drafted Sherrod for a reason.
Donald Penn: 6 years $43 million. A couple years ago this would have been a steal as Penn looked like a potential very good LT, but he was coming off a down year. He was younger than Brown so it still could be good value.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on May 24, 2011 11:06 PM EDT up reply actions
As for who, I would look at the following teams:
Steelers: If they decide to cut Starks they could look to invest that money. A lot could depend on what Colon does, but I wouldn’t count them out. Right now they have about zero invested into their line with the exception of Starks and he missed half the year.
Falcons: If Clabo leaves as expected they could kick Baker over there (where he is probably better suited). They could be very interested in Brown at a LT position.
Bills: Really haven’t addressed their O-line needs in these past two drafts, and they have some money to spend.
Cardinals: If Arizona trades for Kolb or Palmer they probably should think about protecting them. Since it will cost them a premium pick next year, they have all the more reason to spend some money in FA. And in that division with an improved QB and O-line they really could go far.
Raiders: Oakland needs multiple upgrades along their line, and you better believe they will take a look and overpay for a former pro bowler.
Bears: Carimi takes one tackle spot, but he is probably a more natural RT anyways, so the Bears might not want to trust their other tackle spot to a young guy like Webb.
Then I think you have some teams like Tampa, Chiefs, Lions and NY Giants who could look to move their incumbent to another position, if they feel Brown can play LT. Philly could look at him at RT (esp. since Vick is a lefty), as could the Chargers. Dallas could show an interest if they lose Free.
While he might not be an upgrade in a number of those situations, I will bet one of these teams desperate for a tackle upgrade will overpay and overlook his red flags.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on May 24, 2011 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Solid research and well thought out response.
And the bottom line is, starting tackles are going to get well paid. A quality starting tackle should be expected to make $6-11M per. Colon and Free are expected to get max contracts even though Colon missed the entire season, I believe Clabo and Yanda will be next in line, probably at least $8-9M per.
When you get to the next group, I believe Brown is the safest of the remaining choices. Gaither is coming off a bad injury himself, Harris is injury prone as well, and hasn’t proven much at this level. Light and Locklear are older and adequate at best. That’s it realistically, or we are talking about Heyer country now. Personally, I put this group at $6-7M or so.
If Brown is indeed in Clabo/Yanda territory, then no way should they sign him. But I believe they can get him at a base-Clifton level, which is a 3 year deal at $20M with $8M guaranteed. Throw in escalators like pro-bowl appearances and left tackle duties of $2-3M per if achieved, and I think they get him. No way do I sign him for more than 3 years, or $7M per. Pass…Next.
Yanda and Clabo will be looking for 5yr-$44M deals with $22M grtd minimum, in my opinion. I would sign neither at those dollars, make due this year, and draft a starter next year.
I would sign either Clabo or Yanda in a heartbeat for 4yr-$30M-$15M gtd. But that seems highly unlikely.
If you could get Brown for 3 year's $6 million per with a low guarantee then I'm okay
I’d just be pretty shocked if that happened. I just feel that at least one team is going to bet that Brown goes back to his pre-2008 form (even though he made the Pro Bowl that year if you read the reports and numbers he really struggled down the stretch as he was apparently dealing with that hip injury).
I just have this suspicion that Brown is going to get $1-3 million more per season than Harris. And while that might not seem like a lot given that Harris is younger, a more natural RT, knows the system and excelled under Shanny, doesn’t have as many major injuries, and actually played really well down the stretch (last half of the season just not the last couple of games), I think it is well worth it.
Now Yanda is a guy I really want to target, I think he gets slightly less than Clabo and company, b/c he wants to move back to guard, so I think he will be close to the $7 million neighborhood.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I think we are in agreement philiosphically.
Maybe not so much from an evaluation and projection perspective. I think the point here, from some of us, is that we offer Brown a realistic and fair contract based on his recent performance with hope for steady improvement and solid play. His pro bowl days are likely over, and his injury issues will adversely affect the offer. We can incentivize the contract to escalate as performance warrants.
That’s the offer, take it or leave it. If he finds a better deal, then he leaves, and we go to plan B. Plan B would be a similar type offer to Harris. Point is, we are not going to get into a bidding war, if we lose the player, we readjust.
I’m fine with Yanda, or Clady for that matter, but the contract has to be within our scale of prudence. We have a complete team to rebuild, plus we aren’t sure where Trent fits in just yet, in my opinion. I wouldn’t be as interested in Yanda at guard since we don’t really know yet about Montgomery, Cook, and Hurt. Yanda at tackle or guard for $7M sounds like a steal given his age and upside. He is under high demand, according to numerous reports, and he should clean up in my opinion.
IMO, the best free agents that will be available will be at the guard position. Some of the guards on power
blocking teams may be capable of playing tackle in the ZBS,
by Jefferson1935 on May 25, 2011 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Thorough response Steveo26, saved me a job!
Talented LTs, particularly proven ones, will always be in demand.
You think the Steelers would rather have gone into the SB with Flozell Adams or a healthy, coming back to form Jammal Brown?
If Brown comes at the right price / length of contract, then keep him. If he gets a crazy offer, let him go. Is he the right guy for a ZBS O-Line, or would developing a younger, more mobile player be the better long term plan?
Playing Brown at LT ourselves, and moving Trent to RT would be intriguing, as well. Williams looks like a great run-blocker.
Has a team ever been able to swap their starting OTs through a season, to take advantage of match-ups (either individually against certain DEs, or taking on a DL that was undersized or slow on one side)?
by Stephen Beagrie on May 26, 2011 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Why do you have to be a dick like that
you know who he meant. “Jammal”………..we get it
Who?
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on May 24, 2011 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I got Tiger Blood running through my veins!
Get out your broomsticks!
As everyone else that responded to the post thought the “Who?” was saying “Who would pay him LT money?” hence the conversation that ensued after my comment about who may sign him to LT money.
Who’s the dick now?
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on May 25, 2011 8:49 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Based on the draft this year
I’m comfortable with the idea that there is a plan in place for the OLine. What I mean is, the draft was obviously very well thought out and executed with a purpose in mind. I think the FO knows that they can either continue to work with the talent at hand on the OLine or that they have specific targets in mind to fix it. I’m just going to sit back and slurp the Kool-aid.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
You can have mine.
"By far the worst performers on the (Redskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
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