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Redskins Free Agent Bargain Shopping: Defensive Line

The Redskins need to have a strong offseason if they want to get back on the road of respectability and given our current lack of draft picks and numerous holes, the Redskins will need a strong free agency period (assuming the CBA gets done) to fix most of their issues. The good news for the Redskins is that due to some smart restructuring of contracts by G.M. Bruce Allen the Redskins, have a good number of players who can either be traded or cut that will save the Redskins millions of dollars against the salary cap. While until the CBA is finalized it is impossible to know exactly how much room the Redskins will have, but it could be northwards of $50 million. 

While the Redskins will have money to play with, they can't do what they usually do in free agency. Normally, the Redskins would go out and sign the biggest names and flashiest players, regardless of position, how they fit into our philosophy, or if they were even worth it. Although I expect the Redskins to sign a few big names, they will also need to find a number of secondary free agents. Players whose signings might not make headlines on ESPN, but who fit this team perfectly. One area where this team can find some bargain players is along the defensive line.

Here's a look at current Redskins who should return and 3 free agent bargains they need to look at in free agency:

Star-divide

Now I know some people might disagree with me, but that defensive line was probably the worst line on any team in the NFL, (especially after Haynesworth was suspended). While their performance might not have ranked at the bottom, they will no longer have Haynesworth's production (he was tied for 2nd on the team with 2.5 sacks), and it wasn't a young unit with guys who have the potential to get better. Among those players that should return the Redskins have only three that I would consider 'worthy' of a roster spot; Adam Carriker, Jeremy Jarmon and Anthony Bryant.

ANTHONY BRYANT: 

Bryant was a back up nose tackle last year, who had a nice game against the Jaguars late in the season. While I think he deserves a chance to compete, I don't think he should be considered a lock for either of the Skins top two spots on the NT depth chart. In his career he has never proven himself as a week in, week out player (much less a starter) and it would be dangerous to count on him for a significant role next season.

JEREMY JARMON:

Jarmon is the one real young player with potential on this team, and despite not being a natural fit for the 3-4 handled himself admirably when called upon. He is more of a pass rusher than a run defender, but has shown some good development. I wouldn't go so far to hand him a starting job, but he shouldn't be an inactive player like he was for the majority of last season.

ADAM CARRIKER:

I know some people like Carriker, and I'm not saying he's horrible, but he's also not a good player. At best he is a league average starter, and in reality would have only started/had a significant role, on about a 1/3 of 3-4 teams last season. And if Carriker is a starter for your team, he should probably be your 10th or 11th best starter, not your 5th or 6th (Orakpo, Landry, Fletcher, Hall, Rogers). At the very least the Redskins need to find someone who can platoon with him, to allow him to stay fresher. 

BARGAIN OPTIONS: There are a number of free agent options available, including some really big names. Given the Skins needs elsewhere they may choose to spend their money on those positions. If they can't land any of the top free agents here are three they need to consider (and in my book sign):

ALAN BRANCH:

Branch was a former 2nd round pick of the Arizona Cardinals, and has for the most part been considered a bust. Although he hasn't lived up to his 2nd round billing, looks can be deceiving when it comes to Branch. He has gotten a lot better these last two seasons, and has generated more of a push on the line. He didn't start for the Cards, but that isn't exactly shocking since they have the best 3-4 ends in the league. Branch had 35 tackles last season and 2 sacks (albeit in one game), in a backup role, which is better production than what we saw from our starters. Branch also has versatility as while he primarily plays defensive end, he can move inside to NT as well. At 26 he has a lot of upside, while the Redskins shouldn't over pay a solid 3-5 year deal would make sense.

JOHN HENDERSON:

Big Al's former college teammate, could very well be the Redskins next nose tackle. Although his experience in the 3-4 is limited, Henderson fits the NT mold pretty well. Not only does he have the bulk for the position, but he actually relishes taking on double teams, and stopping the run. Henderson also offers 6'7" height in the middle of the line, which should help be a deterrent for the center passing lane. Henderson comes with some risk as he played in just 9 games last season (though in limited time was still more productive than many Redskins linemen), but that could be a positive as it will keep his price tag down. I would have him as the NT on rushing downs and give him a 2 or 3 year deal, for limited money (roughly what Kemoeatu is making).

GERARD WARREN:

Warren got his first real taste of the 3-4 defense last season, and for the most part preformed pretty well. He finished the year with 28 tackles and 3.5 sacks, which isn't too bad considering he wasn't a full time starter. He didn't play much of it, but he has the bulk to lineup over the center, and generates pretty decent penetration. Warren is a good rotational player, who can help out up and down the line. I think he will probably get a deal some where between what Branch and Henderson should expect.

Combined you could sign these three guys for roughly what it would cost to add one elite defensive linemen ($11 million+) and go a long way to fixing your lack of 3-4 personnel. Who do you think they should go after?

Poll
Who would you like the Skins to sign?
Branch
44 votes
Henderson
24 votes
Warren
16 votes
All of them
53 votes
None of them
43 votes
Two out of three
38 votes

218 votes | Poll has closed

Comment 86 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Really only interested in Branch, since the other 2 are over 30.

It’s difficult to guage the secondary market, at this time, until the primary market has been exhausted. Between the draft and the primary free agents, the team should have a much improved D-line. I am ok with Carriker, Bryant, Jarmon, and either Daniels or Holliday returning. I just really want a stud type nose tackle or D-end in the draft, and a starting caliber lineman thru FA.

If they ignore the D-line in the draft, I would be ok with Branch as long as they get Soliai for the Nose. The team needs to spend some decent money or a high draft pick on the defensive line, in my opinion.

by JDC15 on Feb 23, 2011 7:45 PM EST reply actions  

Agreed

At 32 years old it’s hard to see Warren & Henderson bringing anything other than a desire for one last big payday. Branch might be a different story altho he has underwhelmed so far

by ENsDad27 on Feb 23, 2011 10:16 PM EST up reply actions  

You want to know what is sad

That with Henderson and Warren we’d save 5 years over Kemoeatu and Daniels. Add Branch into the mix instead of Holliday and we’d have saved a total of 14 years.

I guess for me, I know guys like Soliai or Franklin aren’t going to be easy to land, if we miss out on them, I’d like to see us sign all three guys, plus a 1st or 2nd rounder (likely an end). To fix our D-line. It won’t be prefect, but vastly improved.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 3:02 AM EST up reply actions  

There are a number of teams playing a 3-4 version with older NTs. Aubrayo Franklin, NT, 49ers. Age: 32;

Pat Williams, NT, Vikings. Age: 39 ; Ron Edwards, NT, Chiefs. Age: 33; Chris Hoke, NT, Steelers. Age: 35; Junior Siavii, DT, Seahawks. Age: 32; Shaun Rogers, DT, Browns. Age: 33.
“Shaun Rogers was dumped by the Browns because of his $6 million salary, but he should still be OK as a two-down run-stuffer. " Brandon Mebane, DT, Seahawks. Age: 26. Brandon Mebane has always been great against the run; this year, he added some pass-rushing skills to his repertoire, allowing him to serve as an every-down player in Seattle’s defense."

Mebane has age in his favor while not playing in a 3-4 defense.
 
There are some other DTs listed at -
http://walterfootball.com/freeagents2011DT.php

“John Henderson, DT, Raiders. Age: 33, Re-signed with Raiders (2 years, $8 million) – ”http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1432/player?r=1" target="_blank">http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/1432/player?r=1" It looks like Henderson is not a possibility.

by Jefferson1935 on Feb 24, 2011 8:46 PM EST up reply actions  

If the Redskins were a contender

maybe you try to sign Williams, though he hasn’t played in a 3-4 for years. The rest of those guys outside of Rogers are backups. Mebane is probably an end in a 3-4

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 9:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Soliai just got franchised

That really cuts down the NT market. Really only true potential studs are Franklin and Rogers.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 5:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Yep, the Redskins should make Phil Taylor their top priority.

I don’t think they can even afford to trade down. I think they need to pull the trigger at 10.
Taylor and Ellis are the only 2 legitimate nose tackles with dominating ability in the draft, in my opinion.

by JDC15 on Feb 24, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Just do

what the packers did – don’t cut howard green first off…

and basically have 3 NT’s playing at your line at the 3-4

the D-line weight for the pack was over 1000lbs

by Kia.Area51 on Feb 23, 2011 11:48 PM EST reply actions  

That is sorta why I mentioned these three guys

All three have the ability to play NT, but both Branch and Warren can play end and do some damage there. It’s not a perfect solution, but a nice fall back one.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 2:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Agreed

it would cover up most of the gashes that killed the skins last year during the run defense…

by Big Spoon on Mar 2, 2011 9:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Packers also have a really good player in the middle of their line.

Jenkins is pretty good to. If the Skins could get that one guy to be a dominating player, they could use other pieces interchangeably. Haynesworth was supposed to be that guy, but… well…he decided to be Albert.

by JDC15 on Feb 24, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah I agree

I think the Skins will still need to invest an early rounder. They won’t be on par with the Packers or Cards, but there is no reason they should be so bad.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Not a Fan of FA

As much as I hate FA with this team due to the lack of picks in early rounds FA again for this team is inevitable. I believe the Skins need to use FA for depth purposes as I really don’t see a whole lot of impact players out there for this team. I think alot of the current players they have Mcintosh, Rogers need to have there contracts restructured or paid more before brining in a new guy and throwing more money at them.

by Kevin O'Connor on Feb 24, 2011 7:01 AM EST reply actions  

I get what you are saying

But there is no one on the defensive line worth bringing back. Golston was awful last year and the rest of these guys are street free agents.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 8:08 AM EST up reply actions  

I have been promoting Branch for a while now

He would be a top choice for me as a FA. I would also look at his teamate Watson(who can play NT).

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 24, 2011 7:53 AM EST reply actions  

Watson would be a decent backup tackle option

He should come cheap (under $2 million) and should easily beat out Bryant.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 8:16 AM EST up reply actions  

I think you need to shoot higher than Bryant for your NT position.

I don’t see Bryant as a 40-50 downs a game type of player, even 25-30 would be a stretch. I think Henderson would be exactly what they need.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions  

Watson is at best a substitute. He was not #1 on the depth chart. I agree with you on Phil Taylor. While Taylor is high on

peoples’ radar right now, the Skins should not reach for him. There are some other draft prospects that may not be as good, but upgrading in free agency for a starting as well as depth NTs can get the Team to the 2012 season.

by Jefferson1935 on Feb 24, 2011 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Yea, the FA market isn't a great option.

That’s why I am hoping they can get a stud defensive lineman in the 1st round. Taylor would be ideal with a trade down, but unlikely it happens. I just think they really need a major upgrade on that line, and the FA market probably won’t provide that. Soliai will be expensive, and most of the others are older and/or situational players.

by JDC15 on Feb 24, 2011 10:09 AM EST reply actions  

I think my top target with a trade down would be Cameron Heyward

I have a feeling he will be a stud. I like Taylor, but don’t want to reach too high just to fill the NT role. If you add a 1st/2nd rounder (Heyward, Taylor etc.) plus some of or all the guys I mentioned the Redskins line will be just fine. It might not be the best in the league, but it will no longer be the worse and make life a lot easier on Orakpo, Fletcher and company.

As much as I’d love to have an elite unit like say GB, I realize that is a tall task for one season. I’m just content to not being the laughing stock of the league, and hopefully above league average.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 10:42 AM EST reply actions  

I agree, I think they should go with a defensive lineman with their first pick.

That’s where the strength of this draft lies, might as well take advantage of it. Not sure about Heyward having more value than Taylor, but he is a 1st rd talent. There is a little concern with his injury also, I’m not sure if he can work out before the draft, which might hurt his draft stock. Still, we are on the same page in that the D-line needs a major infusion of talent.

by JDC15 on Feb 24, 2011 11:01 AM EST up reply actions  

I think Taylor is slightly overvalued because of position scarcity

I understand that there are only so many NT’s in this league, but I wouldn’t rush out and draft Taylor in the top 35 picks. Even with position scarcity he is in the 40-50 range for me. A guy like Heyward is in the midst of the deepest DE class in years and still gets mention anywhere from late teens through the entire first round, and that’s with his injury. I know he gets a little hype for having a famous father, but he also doesn’t have some of the baggage of Taylor.

While NT is the most important position on a defensive line, it doesn’t always have to be your best d-lineman. A number of teams have better ends than they do NT’s, so if the Redskins just get above-average NT production they will be good to go with drafting Heyward.

My dream draft (with some realism) is trading back to the mid-20’s (probably in two trades) and picking up a mid 2nd rounder and at least a late 3rd rounder. I’d grab Heyward in the first, and Taylor (if he is there) with our pick in the 2nd. With the other one I’d take the highest rated guard, and then the biggest need left in the 3rd.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 24, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

The trade down is the perfect scenario.

They need extra draft picks, and they should use their 1st pick on the best D-lineman they can get, in my opinion. There’s probably 5-6 guys in the discussion for that pick, and I am ok with any of them. Preferences aside, I think we can agree that the D-line needs a major upgrade or 2.

by JDC15 on Feb 24, 2011 6:10 PM EST up reply actions  

If Robert Quinn is somehow still avaliable

he’s one guy I would be alright with taking at #10. The only other would be Dareus. Aside from those two, I’ll pass on defense at #10, unless a guy like Peterson or Prince slid(which I can’t see hapening).

Bowers, Fairley and Peterson are all but guaranteed to go in the top 5. Prince will never make it past Dallas, if he lasts that long. Miller, I hope, will go before we pick.

I’m not comfortable reaching on guys like Jordan or Watt.

I’d rather grab an offensive project like Newton, or the sure think in Julio Jones, than take a flier on a DE. I would, however, possibly(very small possibly) consider Aldon Smith.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 24, 2011 9:22 PM EST up reply actions  

I do believe that NFL teams have Taylor as a higher value.

If Soliai is worth a $12M franchise tag, that tells me that teams value the position very highly. Soliai has been pedestrian until this season, and he still wasn’t dominant.

by JDC15 on Feb 24, 2011 6:18 PM EST up reply actions  

What if we keep Haynesworth

and use him only as a DE? Then we eliminate a need at DE. He and Carriker would provide a well above average tandem at DE. Then a rush OLB and NT are the only other positions of immediate need on our defense(unless of course Carlos bolts).

I was all for getting rid of Fat Albert, but now, I truely believe we need to keep him. When he was on the field, he was dominate. Shanny needs to get over the ego thing he’s got going with Albert, and just agree to be men, and professionals. We are never going to get full trade value for Haynesworth. He’s more valuable to us right now.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 27, 2011 8:02 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree with everything you said about Haynesworth and Shanny swallowing his pride

I just don’t see it happening. Also, I still contend that Carriker could still upgraded. The Skins would maybe have an above average End combo, but that is only because Haynesworth is so dominate. Maybe you wouldn’t need to take them in the top 2 rounds, but you need to upgrade that position one way or another. (Also FS is def. a need)

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 27, 2011 3:36 PM EST up reply actions  

I think Carriker is the perfect DE for our system

and would be a great compliment to Haynesworth

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 27, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Draft
  1. 10 -Mike Pouncey OG …… 2rd. Kristofer O’Dowd C …… need OL help …..

by juanpan on Feb 26, 2011 3:45 PM EST reply actions  

Draft Fail

Pouncey isn’t the player his brother is and would an terrible reach at #10 and O’Dowd can be had late in the draft (5-7th)

I consider myself a one man wolfpack..

by Diesel44 on Feb 26, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Let's reach and draft nothing but OL!

It’s the casual fan’s arguement. “We need OL”. We do but we need a lot of things . DL/OLB/QB/OL/WR/FS etc etc.

I consider myself a one man wolfpack..

by Diesel44 on Feb 26, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm not saying you are wrong

B/c the skins have a ton of needs, but I do think adding a couple o-linemen is key. They mentioned during the Combine how the Jets drafted both Ferguson and Mangold the same year, and set themselves up for the future.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 26, 2011 5:31 PM EST up reply actions  

that I agree with...

though if they trade back pick up some extra picks, I couldn’t argue grabing two interior linemen in the 2nd and 3rd rounds

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 26, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Steveo, Did you read juanpan's post?

thats absurd. And unfortunately, this is the mentality of a lot of casual fans.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 27, 2011 8:04 AM EST up reply actions  

I agree that those players were horrible choices

Pouncey is a late 1st-2nd round guy, and O’dowd is a 5th-7th rounder. But I don’t hate the sentiment. I’d much rather take Oline at 10 and 41 (guys who are worthy of those picks) rather than a quarterback and WR (or the other way around).

Ideally i’d like to see two things, one for the Skins to trade back and add additional picks in the 2nd-4th rounds. I would hope to add two interior linemen in those rounds. Also, I’d like to see the Skins add a RT and a C or G, in free agency.

Until our line is fixed, it’s not going to matter who else we have on offense. I don’t need the Skins O-line to be the greatest next season, but I’d like them to be a lot better.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 27, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Since we have a very good, young LT, there are no offensive line positions or prospects in this draft

that would be worthy of a top ten pick. Carimi is the only lineman that I would consider for us in the 1st rd. & even he would be reach at our pick.I understand you not wanting to go QB, as I understand it you don’t feel that any in this years draft are 1st rd. prospects but at WR it is a different matter. We need a legitimate #1 WR, whether we get him this year or next year is irrelevant, if he is there at # 10 (& the elite D-linemen are gone) we should draft him. We need a lot more talent on this team, it makes no sense IMHO to draft inferior talent at positions because they are a greater need or because we need one position 1st before we address another.

by ENsDad27 on Feb 27, 2011 6:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Well said ENs

I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who happens to know quite a bit about the NFL and talent at certain positions. He asked me one question: " When another team is preparing to face the Redskins, what player on your offense do D-coordinators fear?" We both had the same answer: No One. There is not one player on our offense that other teams fear. Period(if anyone tries to say Cooley, I slap your head off).

The second question was: “Who is the face of your team?” We again both came up with the same answer: No One. We do not have a face of the team. Period.

If we have no one on this team that anyone in the NFL fears, and we have no face of the team, what do we really have?

I want Newton/Baldwin or Jones/Locker. I’ll then take Demarco Murray in the 5th. If he’s gone, I’ll take Shane Vereen. If he’s gone, I’ll take Jordan Toddman. With my other 5th I’ll take Ian Williams. Whatever pick is left, I’ll take Bart, the C from Cuse.

I’m living with Carriker and Haynesworth as my DE’s. I pick up a NT in FA, and use Williams too. I’ll give Jackson a shot at OLB. I’ll also grab a FA OLB. I’ll keep Carlos, and move Barnes to FS.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 27, 2011 7:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree with all of that altho if we don't get a WR in the top two I would go Niles Paul in the 5th

Take a look at Ricardo Lockette WR & Eugene Clifford FS as possible 6th & 7th Rd. type talent. I also like Jeff Maehl a lot in the later rd.s, sort of a Wes Welker type.
  I really have a hard time understanding why even some of the smarter guys around here are locked onto certain positions no matter what the available talent level is at those positions

by ENsDad27 on Feb 27, 2011 7:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Maybe some people are trying to re-live the glory days of the HOGS

As for WR’s, I believe we need big targets. We have small, speedy, slot types. We need a big, blazer with #1 talent. We aren’t even close to having that guy on our team.

I don’t know much about Paul. Tell me more.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 27, 2011 7:44 PM EST up reply actions  

From Consensus Draft Services

Strengths
Awesome athlete with great explosion, balance and agility. Tremendous speed and strength. Fearless, no-nonsense returner who finds a lane and hits it with abandon. Goes over the middle as a receiver and will take big hits. Great run-after-catch ability; seems to be in four wheel drive and can take it to the house every time he touches the ball.
Weaknesses
Extremely raw as a receiver and has a great deal to learn about running routes. Inconsistent hands. As a returner, sometimes fields some questionable punts. Careless at times and will put the ball on the ground.
Projection
Very unpolished as a receiver but is such a great athlete and return man that he likely won’t be on the board past the fourth round. Every NFL receiver coach would love to have him on the roster as a fifth/six WR and developmental prospect.

by ENsDad27 on Feb 27, 2011 7:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Thats not bad

I’ll have to do some homework. Thanks for the info on him. Sounds like a promising kid.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 27, 2011 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

As a project, he has a lot of potential

There will be a few quality possession type WRs still available in the 5th, IMO he has the most upside if he’s still around. I have been following the discussion you are having in a different thread…good luck with that

by ENsDad27 on Feb 27, 2011 8:53 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks

Why didn’t you jump in? I could use all the help I can get

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 28, 2011 8:06 AM EST up reply actions  

The Team should keep some contact with players that may not get drafted at all positions,

but with a heavy focus on WRs. This may be a big year for UDFAs if there is a lockout. Will teams be able to sign rookie free agents? I don’t know why not.

by Jefferson1935 on Feb 28, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions  

That's a good question

if we can sign draft picks, I don’t know why we wouldn’t be able to sign UDFAs. I wonder what percentage of players in the NFL are UDFAs ??

by ENsDad27 on Feb 28, 2011 6:27 PM EST up reply actions  

The problem is that team is basically guaranteed to finish in the bottom

3 next year.

Since 2000, 45 receivers have been taken in the first round, exactly one of them, but up a 1,000 yard campaign as a rookie, Micheal Clayton, Bucs. He put up nearly 1,200 yards and proceeded to never even get to 500 yards again. In fact only two other receivers in that 11 year period, cracked 1,000 yards as a rookie, 2nd rounder Anquan Boldin, and 7th rounder Marques Colston.

Rookie Receivers have little impact by in large, yes there are some good rookie years that didn’t crack a grand, Larry Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson came close as rookies and then did so in their 2nd years, but remember so did Rod Gardner.

On the flip side there are guys like Roddy White and Santa Moss who needed multiple years before they cracked 1,000 yards (or were even that good).

Typically receivers take at least 2 years before they make an impact, and the reality is most of them never even become starters much less stars. Jones or baldwin are great, but they aren’t going to make the Redskins a better football team next year, and likely not really the year after that.

You are right the Redskins don’t have a weapon that strikes fear into the heart of an opposing defense, but weapons don’t win football games, at least not on their own. Had the Redskins had an offensive line, their running game and passing attack would have been a lot more competitive and the Redskins would have probably won a couple more games. If instead you gave Washington a stud receiver and good quarterback, at best they might win one more game. Look around the league at teams with great offensive skill players, but that went no where, because of offensive line and/or defense.

You can consistently win in this league and be competitive with a a good offensive line and defense, even with only average skill players. But unless you are the Colts with Peyton Manning you can’t win with great skill players and a substandard o-line.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 12:59 AM EST up reply actions  

You can consistently win in this league and be competitive with a a good offensive line and defense, even with only average skill players

Name me one playoff team that is lacking an offensive weapon?

Typically receivers take at least 2 years before they make an impact

This statement is grnerally true. So if we both agree to some certainty that this IS true, wouldn’t it make sense to get that reciever NOW, instead of waiting a year or two. Then, by the time that WR is coming into his own, we’ll have started to turn the corner.

You agree that it’s going to take two years to start becoming competitive. Doesn’t it make some sense to get some weapons in place, so when we are starting to become a better team, the weapons will be READY to use?

Unless you content with the worst skill positions in the entire league, I don’t see where there is even an arguement here.

Your a smart guy. If you are unable to realize we need some weapons on offense, I don’t know what to tell you then.

Take the Rams for example. They are re-building. They drafted a OT, who was the top prospect avaliable in the 2009 draft(Smith). The following year they got their QB. They should have taken a WR too last year, but they made a good pick with Saffold. Now in 2011, they need that elite play-making target for Bradford.

Now look at us.

We drafted the best OT last year. We tried the veteran FA QB, but it didn’t work(so we just move on). We have our other OT in place in Brown(and please, don’t bring up the hip thing; it’s over now, and he’s playing better). We now need to put the QB in place. IT’s just another VERY important piece of the puzzle, and it just so happens to be even more important for us considering we have no threat at the skill positions. Even the casual fan knows we have no offense. Even the outsider looking in knows we have no playmakers on this team. Wouldn’t you think this would be a good place to start, especially since you have already stated that it takes a year or two for a WR(and a QB to for that matter) to be able to start making a difference on a football team.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 28, 2011 8:22 AM EST up reply actions  

To the first point about winning consistently

The Seahawks this year are a prime example, yes they skating into the playoffs, but they played pretty well when they got there (better than the Patriots).

The Ravens in 2008, were a defense/offensive line team. Yes they had Flacco and Rice, but that was before they were Flacco and Rice. Rice was the third leading back and it was pretty clear it didn’t matter who was carrying the ball, the Ravens were going to be able to run. Flacco had a rating of 80.0 and a comp. % of 60.0, good for a rookie, but hardly a weapon that struck fear in the hearts of opposing coordinators.Yes they had Derrick Mason, who is good, but this guy isn’t a game breaker. The Patriots first Super Bowl run you could make the same case. Who was their big offensive threat? Troy Brown? It certainly wasn’t Tom Brady. Brady might have made some big plays down the stretch, but he hardly was a big threat, that first year. In 2007 the Titans went 10-6 and to the playoffs. Vince young threw nearly twice as many INT’s to TD’s, and had a 71.1 rating. Yes he ran for some yards, but I don’t think 395 yards at a 4.2 average makes up enough for being an awful passer. Their leading running back LenDale White had over 1,000 yards, but he averaged just 3.7 ypc (and it’s LenDale White). There top receiver that year was Roydell Williams (Justin Gage had a few more yards, same number of catches and less starts and TD’s).

In addition to those teams you can name numerous teams who were playoff teams, with just defense, offensive line and a good running back (not even a franchise back or a great back, just a good one). The Jets 2 years ago when Sanchez was a rookie, sure they had Braylon Edwards, but he was a midyear addition, didn’t know the playbook and Sanchez couldn’t get him the ball. The Ravens and the Steelers were playoff teams year in year out, regardless of who was under center or lining up at WR. The Bears in 2007 when Rex Grossman led them to the Super Bowl.

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by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions  

Every one of those team and players you mentioned

are 100x better than anyone we have, and you know it.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 28, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

Exactly

Those teams were far better, because they had a better defensive line and offensive line.

Those teams lacked a star quarterback/running back/Receiver (of just a qb and wr in the 2nd group), but they were able to compete b/c of their o-line and d-line.

I’m sorry though I can’t see how these ‘players’ were better than what the Redskins put out on the field. Just because guys like Brady, Flacco and Rice became stars didn’t mean they were always stars. Vince Young had the hype and a decent year in 2009, but he was simply awful in 2007. even in the dual threat sense, as he neither ran well or passed well. For as bad as McNabb was he was far better than Vince Young and Joe Flacco in those respective seasons. Esp. when you consider they were behind better offensive lines. Torain isn’t great but he is a better runner than the Ravens LaRon McClain and LenDale White. And Moss is as good as Mason, and light-years better than Roydell Williams.

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by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Those teams lacked a star quarterback/running back/Receiver (of just a qb and wr in the 2nd group), but they were able to compete b/c of their o-line and d-line.

Any RB, QB or WR those teams had would be a star on the Redskins. You can agrue till your blue in the face, but to be successful in the NFL, you need a good/very good QB, and some playmakers at WR and/or RB. Point Blank.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 28, 2011 6:47 PM EST up reply actions  

You mean to tell me....

That Roydell Williams 4 years ago was a star, but now he is the worst receiver on the team? And that LenDale White is better than Ryan Torain, despite the fact that White ran behind all-pro talent and Torain ran behind one of the worst lines in the league?

Mason is a good receiver, but he isn’t a ‘star’, and not better than Moss. Vince Young was horrible that season (and pretty much overall) I don’t know how you can say, that he was better than McNabb.

Yes you need those players, but if you don’t have the line and defense you still don’t win anything…Why do we need to ‘force’ the situation and take guys like Newton or Locker who aren’t even close to being NFL ready.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 7:03 PM EST up reply actions  

As to the 2nd point

As i demonstrated above, teams can get by when a quarterback or a receiver are developing if they have a strong core, but they can’t survive with a qb and a wr, but no other talent.

It’s not that I don’t think that the Redskins don’t need to improve their skill positions, to the contrary I think that their skill positions are a joke. I consider Torain average at best, Armstrong as more of a 3rd (and closer to 4th) receiver, and Chris Cooley just a good tight end. I want the Redskins to improve their skill positions, but i know that unless the offensive line and defense improve they are very likely to be worse than last year. I want the Redskins to add a back in the late rounds of the draft, a speed guy who can complement/fill in for Ryan Torain. I want them to sign a decent free agent or two, Steve Breaston, Mike Sims-Walker, etc., I just don’t want them to break the bank (also i’d add a late round guy with some size and potential).

And the Rams are a great example, because they did do it right. They added a tackle (who i’m not the biggest fan of, Eugene Monroe I think will be the better player) and focused on defense. Then last year after Bradford they went right back and grabbed another tackle. Not to mention the fact they already had gone out in free agency and added Jacob Bell and Jason Brown on the offensive line. They only had one weakness along their offensive line, and that is a big reason for Bradford’s early success (having Stephen Jackson doesn’t hurt either). The Rams also had a vastly improved defense, which helps more than you think, in the game of field position and not giving up early leads.

Yes they need to add a receiver now, but that is because the rest of the their offense is pretty well set. And while they could use a few more defenders, they an improving unit, which should continue to get better. The Rams have cause to add a receiver, the Redskins don’t.

I just know that Receivers don’t make a huge difference between winning and losing, look at Fitz, Andre Johnson, Calvin Johnson. How did their teams do last year? And they actually did have great seasons. The Texans can’t win with Schaub, Foster and Johnson, because their secondary and pass rush are awful, and their offensive line is just average (i’m not saying they need to prioritize that, but just stating its not a great unit).

QB’s and WR’s are notorious for not developing as well, and the Redskins can’t afford a busted pick. Sure O-linemen and defenders bust as well, but usually not as bad as a QB or WR.

Outside of the Coits, the teams with sustained success in this league win with Defense. Yes some of these teams now have great QB’s or WR’s as well, but defense matters most.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 10:40 AM EST up reply actions  

I actually think Tyron Smith is top 10 material

Castonzo and Carimi aren’t far off. As to your overall point I disagree.

Yes Julio Jones blew up the Combine, and Baldwin wasn’t too shabby either (nor was Green), but these guys arent’ going to make the Redskins any better next season. If the Redskins had traded a pick for Vincent Jackson last season, they weren’t suddenly going to become contenders. Look at the top receivers around the league, Austin, C. Johnson, A. Johnson, Fitzgerald, C. Ochocinco, S. Smith (Car.), P. Harvin, there teams were awful, and pretty much none of that had to do with the play of the receivers.

I want a star receiver, but I’m not going to draft one now when he isn’t going to impact this team.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 1:10 AM EST up reply actions  

Ochocinco, Smith and Harvin are not considered top WR's.

Consiquently Dez Bryant made a pretty significant impact as a rookie. The kid Johnson in Buff, had a nice season as a young WR.

For every good QB in this league, these is a good WR on the other end. Some teams have good WR, and poor QB’s(Lions, Cards, Dolphins).

Do you think te Bucs would have been as successful without Josh Freeman and Mike Williams? Would the Falcons have been successful without Matt Ryan and Roddy White? Would the Packers have won the Super Bowl without Aaron Rodgers and Greg Jennings(and their O-Line sucked)? Would the Bears have won the division if Rex Grossman was still their QB? Would the Steelers be the team they are without Big Ben and his array of offensive weapons(and their line sucked this year)? Would the Colts have kept winning without Peyton, Wayne and Co.? Would the Chiefs have been so improved without Cassell and Bowe?

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 28, 2011 8:34 AM EST up reply actions  

a couple things

Age might be starting to catch up with Steve Smith, but he is still a top receiver and before last season would have been considered top 10. Even in 2009 when Delhomme was god awful and Matt Moore started half the year, he almost got 1,000 yards, and averaged over 15 yards a catch.

Ochocinco is at the bottom end of being a top receiver, but he’s still up there. I’m not saying I want him, but he’s got a couple more 1,200 yard seasons still in him.

As for Harvin, he’s not a star yet, but he was a 1st rounder and has that potential.

Yes Bryant had a very good rookie year, but he was also the third best target, after Austin and Witten, Bryant also shows why receivers don’t matter. The Cowboys have a ton of weapons, but their line sucked and their secondary sucked, so they ended up with 6 wins. Yeah Romo got hurt and Phillips was an idiot, but they weren’t going to challenge for that Super Bowl until those areas got fixed.

As for the rest, the Bucs drafted Benn with a high pick in the 2nd round yet, Williams completely outplayed him, showing less reason why the Redskins should draft a receiver in the top two rounds. Roddy White took extremely long to develop (as did Aaron Rodgers), I don’t think Skins fans will be okay to wait 3+ years. Steve Johnson is a good developing receiver, but he was drafted in 2008 (yep the Thomas/Kelly year) in the 6th or 7th round. I again have no problem going that route. The Bears haven’t prioritized WR early in the draft (they could now), and as for the trade. If they had kept Orton and used those picks on O-linemen and WR’s they might be holding the Lombardi trophy right now. Sure the Steelers now are great b/c of big ben, but they don’t currently have a 1st round wide receiver. And the only 2nd round receiver on their roster is Randle-El. Wallace, Sanders and Ward are 3rd round guys. They did use 1st rounders on Miller and Mendenhall. Also the Steelers have gone to the postseason in the past 20 years with Neil O’Donnell, Kordell Stewart, Mike Tomzack, and Tommy Maddox at the helm. And the biggest reason for the Chiefs success is Jamal Charles and their rushing attack. Bowe has some game, but dropped balls would put him in the 20’s among the leagues top receivers. Cassel is improved, but he’s nothing special. Had he been on the Skins this year I don’t think it would have made a difference at all.

Peyton’s just in another world, but thats the thing. He is the exception, not the rule. If Gabbert or Newton were the next Peyton, okay maybe i can buy it, but they aren’t even close to that level of talent.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 11:03 AM EST up reply actions  

Steve I respect both your football knowledge & intellect

but I can’t understand why you keep pounding on making the team better for next year. We both know that it is going to be at LEAST two years to get respectable (& by two years I mean two drafts & two Free Agency signing periods with the thought that in the 2012 season we see a team on the field that is contending for a div. title or is a legitimate wild card threat thru the season, similar to the Bucs this year). With that thought in mind it does not make sense to draft players that are ranked lower than others because we need that position more. We will not be very good next year, a weaker schedule might make for an extra win or two but we will still not be a very talented team. We should be looking at every position in this draft with the exception of TE,LT & CB & even CB is a position that could use an upgrade, especially if Rogers leaves in FA. Why would we leave a WR on the board who has a grade of 97 & take an offensive lineman with a grade of 87 even if offensive line is a bigger need when in actuality we need BOTH. We need to put as much talent as we can on this team at every position for at least the next two years & at that point possibly begin to pick & choose players based on position but unfortunately we are no where near that level now. If we pass on a WR ( or DE, NT, RB, FS, QB, OLB,ILB etc. )this year then it’s a position we will need to address NEXT year so why shouldn’t we pick the MOST talented players that are available at ANY of our positions of need INSTEAD of limiting our picks to our biggest positions of need.

by ENsDad27 on Feb 28, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

Here's the thing

I know people will try to disagree, but receiver isn’t an important position. Yes it is a passing league, but plenty of teams have shown that having a 2nd tier receiving corps is not a problem for competing and winning super bowls. All you need is a decent receiving corps, which yes the Redskins don’t have right now, but drafting Jones isn’t the answer. What you need to do is increase the total talent of your Receivers not just add one stud. We need to not have Austin, Banks, Galloway and Roydell Williams out there running routes. If we had two elite receivers we still would be a losing team.

Jones is a luxury pick, and the Redskins can’t afford anymore of those. Taking the best player on the board, led the Skins to getting Thomas, Kelly and Davis in 2008. Now improving your ‘board’ (i.e. getting rid of Cerrato) is a start, but its not enough. You have to prioritize based on position. A 97 receiver simply isn’t worth as much as 93 or 92 rated OT, DE, or OLB. because that is what we are talking about now. A guy like J.J. Watt, Tyron Smith, Cam Jordan, Aldon Smith etc. are all going to be rated in the mid-to-low 90’s.

The other reason I hesitate on receivers is I feel you can get very good value in the mid-late rounds. Time and time again the top receiver (or receivers) taken aren’t the best receiver from that draft class, with a few notable exceptions. Now maybe this will be another exception, but I’d much rather draft someone else in the 1st (or really trade back) and get a Greg Little in the 4th (either from a trade back, or a trade up). Also, next year already looks like an extremely strong WR class.

I’m not expecting this team to compete regardless of who we draft or sign, but I’d rather fill the biggest and most important needs first. Listen we are sitting here trying to convince ourselves that Cam Newton is a good idea for the 10 pick?? really, the kid has potential, but he isn’t close to an NFL quarterback and will need big time work. I say fix the important areas now, and add some late round guys for the skill positions, and then next year focus on those positions, instead of forcing it this year. I truly believe that if we put a rookie quarterback out there he literally has zero shot of being successful, because he will simply get killed back there. So why even consider doing it??

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 6:32 PM EST reply actions  

Steveo

You want to know something? Well even if you don’t, I’m going to type it anyways.

Never, ever have I said we have a great O-Line. I have advocated many ways to improve it, while still keeping my arguement intact for taking other positions with our 1st and 2nd round picks.

Never, ever have I said O-Line is not an important position. That would be just ignorant on my part.

Never, ever have I said we couldn’t use an upgrade on our D-Line, or in our OLB corps. I do believe we have some hidden talent in guys like Jarmon and Jackson, but they are still unproven.

I will always back up my stance on certain issues with a plan to improve our overall team, ie. proposing we use FA to fill in some deficiencies on our O and D lines.

Now what you said about WR not being an important position is rediculous. Let me ask you, who helped the Giants win the 2008 Super Bowl…………A Wide Receiver. Who won the 2009 Super Bowl…………..A Wide Receiver

In the last 7 Super Bowls, three MVP awards went to WR’s

Average passing yards per game in 2003 was 200.4. In 2010 that number rose to over 220 in 2010. Who is catching those balls, and gaining those yards?

Of the top10 all-time leaders in TD’s, 5 out of the 10 were WR’s, this including the NFL’s all-time leader in TD’s Jerry Rice.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 28, 2011 7:19 PM EST up reply actions  

We actually agree on a couple of things

I agree that there will be some good WR prospects later in the draft ( not top tier #1 wr prospects but talented players that might develop in a year or two. I also agree on the D-line, if one of the elite players slip to us ( Fairley,Dareus,Quinn) then I agree, that should be the pick.

I know people will try to disagree, but receiver isn’t an important position
Incorrect
Jones is a luxury pick, and the Redskins can’t afford anymore of those. Taking the best player on the board, led the Skins to getting Thomas, Kelly and Davis in 2008.
No, those players were taken by an idiot who couldn’t evaluate talent & drafted players in positions we were already strong at (Fred Davis). Jones is not a luxury pick, he is an elite player at a position of need for our team.
A guy like J.J. Watt, Tyron Smith, Cam Jordan, Aldon Smith
Other than Jordan, I wouldn’t even consider any of these guys at # 10, they look great now but just like every year, after the draft has come & gone & these guys start playing, they are no longer the great players they seem to be now, they are rookies fighting for a roster spot.
I say fix the important areas now, and add some late round guys for the skill positions, and then next year focus on those positions, instead of forcing it this year.
This is where we disagree the most, ALL positions are important. We need to get the best talent that we can at every position, not pick & choose players based on how bad our current players are. It is NOT a one year fix, it will take a couple (or more) seasons to become a contender. We need to take a top ten player with a top ten pick.

by ENsDad27 on Feb 28, 2011 8:37 PM EST up reply actions  

Look I'm not trying to be difficult I'm just going by the facts

I say the position isn’t important, because teams don’t succeed solely because of the WR’s. You need to have good receivers in this league (which the Skins still need to upgrade to) but you don’t NEED elite guys. If you have them great, but I would never ignore a position of greater value.

Overall I like Jones a lot, but I can’t even say for certain that he is the 2nd best receiver in this draft. I know, I will be called a homer, but Jon Baldwin has always impressed me more than Jones. He’s always had better hands (and now we find out bigger hands), tracks the ball better in the air, and is far better with the jump ball. And while Jones was the star of the Combine, Baldwin wasn’t far behind, he was taller, stronger, bigger hands, and a better vertical. And while Jones won the events Baldwin’s numbers in the 40, Broad and 3 cone were extremely good. And for what it is worth Jones always had better quarterback play, when you compare numbers (and really Baldwin’s were better).

Now I’m not knocking Jones, but for me he isn’t any more impressive at the Combine than a J.J. Watt running a 4.78 at 290 lbs. Or what Aldon Smith did. I know its a difference in opinion and I respect that. Are there exceptions to the rules, of course, but when you are in the Skins position you can’t rely on exceptions. I’m a meat and potatoes guy who always believes the games are won and lost in the trenches. There is no doubt that you need other guys who are good or even great to execute, but until those lines are fixed I don’t see the point in ‘wasting’ star players. I love Calvin Johnson and think he is insane, but that team has won a total of 15 games in the 4 years that he has been there.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 9:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I'm with you on Baldwin

I would love a QB in the 1st, and Baldwin in the 2nd. Actually for me, that would be ideal.

By the way, are you from the Pitt area, as you mentioned you may be a called a Homer for the Baldwin pick?

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Mar 1, 2011 6:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm Nova born and raised

but both of my parents are from outside Pittsburgh, and I still have family up there. I’ve always had them as my number one college team.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Mar 1, 2011 9:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Nice,

How’d you end up a Skins fan? (thank god you never chose the Eagles)

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Mar 1, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

My family moved to WV when I was 5(Dad got transfered there for his job)

We were in the Northeastern panhandle, only an hour outside DC. We lived there for 7 years before moving back to PA. I was in Redskins territory, and just became a fan.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Mar 2, 2011 7:29 AM EST up reply actions  

I know people will try to disagree, but receiver isn’t an important position

Man, your really loosing all credibility you had. I couldn’t even read beyond this sentence.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Feb 28, 2011 6:50 PM EST reply actions  

How many teams win

because they have great receivers but bad defense’s, oline’s etc. Take a look at the top 15 teams in the draft, outside of us and the Browns, pretty much everyone else had at least good if not elite receivers (whether as a group or individual).

TE’s and FB’s might be the only positions of less value than a receiver (not counting ST’ers ). Yes of course there are stars, and some that have SB rings to back it up, but you could say that about any position. WR’s are only effective, if you have an offensive line to give the quarterback time, and a QB who can execute. Teams can have decent to good offenses simply by having a very good offensive line. And I think people don’t realize how important having a great defense is to an offense. Yes field position goes both ways, but it is more important for offenses (unless the defense only has 30 yards to defend).

I know you didn’t say we have a good offensive line, but you are quite content with LIch and Brown, when I feel they are probably our two biggest weaknesses. They need to be replaced (not necessarily by stars) to have a good O-line.

As for your Super Bowl, comparison the facts don’t really back up your examples. Yes both Tyree and Holmes were integral to winning those Super Bowls, but Tyree was cut just over a year later and the Giants really didn’t miss a beat, by adding not only 1st round talent, but mid round talent like Manningham. As for the Steelers they let Holmes go for a 5th rounder, and replaced him with a pair of late 3rd rounders (Wallace and Sanders) and a 6th rounder (Brown). Who knows maybe Holmes would have meant another trophy for Pittsburgh, but In my opinion it was their offensive line that let them down.

If the Redskins were a good team or a great team, yes by all means go after a WR but we aren’t. Think where the Rams would be if they had taken Benn at the top of Rd. 2 instead of Saffold? And that is a team that already was set at 3 O-line positions (and I mean really set, not just potential). Why should we do what other teams who are successful don’t do?

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Feb 28, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

I know you didn’t say we have a good offensive line, but you are quite content with LIch and Brown

Your devaluing Brown because of the injury. When healthy, he is a good OT. He has came out pubically, and said he played through a lot of pain(scar tissue) in the preseason and early season, but became healthier as the season went on. He said he is healthy now, and expects to lingering effects. Even Shanny praised his efforts later in the season.

As for Licht, yes, I believe he improved significantly as the season went on. I would love to see him at C, with Cook or Capers at G. I believe C is his natural position.

Unlike you, I believe we can have a successful O-line without haveing 5 first or second round picks starting. I think a huge part of O-Line play, which a lot of people are overlooking, is chemistry. We have had turnover and reshuffleing of our O-Line over the past 5 season. This is no way to promote healthy chemistry. Let these guys work and grow together. Then we may have a successful line in time. When one guy gets old, and stops producing, draft a ne one and plug him in. No more fire drills where we bring in 3-4 new linemen at a time and magically expect them to mesh. It’s not going to happen.

Shanny always had a good line in Denver. He seemed to pick the right players to fit his system. He drafted Licht. He must have liked him, because that was his first offseason signing last year. He won a starting spot. Shanny doesn’t seem like he just likes to give away starting spots. From what I’ve seen so far, he likes competition, and wants guys to earn their spots. Licht did just that, and in his first true year as a part-time starter, we need to view his progression much like we would a rookie’s. Let the kid develop. He is not an all-pro, but he showed good improvement, is young, and is hungry. This may be just the type of player this team needs.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Mar 1, 2011 6:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Tiller I can agree with you somewhat on the issue of the offensive line and chemistry. The New York Giants have had a

combination of first round and UDFA players that have stayed together close to five years. Time sort of caught up with the Giants (as well as Cowboys and Eagles) as the OL got older and injured.

“I believe we can have a successful O-line without having 5 first or second round picks starting. I think a huge part of O-Line play, which a lot of people are overlooking, is chemistry. We have had turnover and reshuffling of our O-Line over the past 5 season. This is no way to promote healthy chemistry. Let these guys work and grow together.”

Yet there has to be a sufficient level of OL talent to build that foundation. The chemistry will have to wait for at least some upgrade in the OL. The Jets have managed to have a strong OL even with several players changing during the season or over several seasons. Many OL rookies, whether 1st round pick or not, simply are not ready to play in year one or two. Many teams keep the younger OL as backups or practice squad until they are ready to move up as starters.

by Jefferson1935 on Mar 1, 2011 9:34 AM EST reply actions  

Cook might play .....

but IMHO there is no way that Selvish Capers ever cracks an NFL roster anywhere past the PS

by ENsDad27 on Mar 1, 2011 5:55 PM EST up reply actions  

Speed is not his problem

He made Brandon Graham into a 1st rd. pick with his performance at the Senior Bowl last year. His workout at the Combine was awful, he had the strength of a SS. Altho he was on our practice squad all year (which, as you have pointed out in the past, makes him available to any team interested) no teams were interested, including the Bears, Steelers & any other team that had a sorry O-line. I don’t think he will be on either the PS or our 53 man roster next season.

by ENsDad27 on Mar 1, 2011 6:15 PM EST up reply actions  

That sure would be sad

The kid has promise

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Mar 1, 2011 6:37 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that might be too harsh

I still believe in Capers upside, I just don’t think he was NFL ready. He needed to add strength and technique, but he had the athletic ability and the raw talent to do so. I’ll be interested to see how he looks this year, and think he could still yet develop into something.

Cook I really believe is a backup at best. I don’t see much upside there, but then again the way our line played last year, maybe giving the backups a shot isn’t a bad idea.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Mar 1, 2011 8:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Capers has the intangibles

Good feet, long arms, great athleticism, good size. He was abused at the Senior Bowl playing on the left side. I would like to see him as a RT.

I also wouldn’t mind using a late round draft pick on Joe Barkesdale from LSU. I like his potential at RT. He didn’t wow at the combine, but he was solid at LSU. He was a much better prospect that Ciron Black ever was.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Mar 2, 2011 7:37 AM EST up reply actions  

I'm a big Barksdale fan

don’t know if he will last to the 5th round though. I do think he could be a starter in this league. My thing with Capers is i’m guessing he is at least another year away from being able to really contibute on the field. I got the impression he just wasn’t strong enough and needed practice reps. He could have a future, they just can’t count on him yet.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Mar 4, 2011 9:26 AM EST up reply actions  

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