How patient is Snyder?

by aFan4Life on Dec 23, 2011 10:32 AM EST

A big part of the discussions on whether or not to trade up for a QB is based on the long term effect on the team. In general teams (Patriots) seem to get ahead in the long run by trading down for more picks, not by trading up but can Shanahan afford to do that? I have to ask myself, how patient can Snyder be?

I think we have to keep in mind that Shanahan & Allen never used the word "rebuilding" so in Sndyer isn't in that mindset (despite the fact that we really are rebuilding). Shanahan went 6-10 his first year and this year he's going to be between 5 -11 and 7 - 9. How many losing seasons does Shanahan get before Snyder pulls the plug?

Since Norv Turner, Gibbs 2.0 is the only Redskins coach who got more than 2 years to produce a winning team.

I didn't mind in the least bit when Spurrier and Zorn were shown the door as I think they were horribly ineffective head coaches but I think we're on the right track now with Shanahan and Allen. Or at the very least we're on a better track than we were on prior to Snyder hiring Allen & Shanahan. It seems to me that most of us are in favor of Shanahan if for no other reason than that we need to demonstrate that a Sb winning head coach doesn't get treated like dirt. If Snyder were to fire Shanahan now then he'd have a nearly impossible job of hiring a decent head coach.

So how many more years can Shanahan go before having a winning season? I think Snyder will be expecting a winning team next year, or at least an 8-8 season. If that doesn't happen I think Snyder might fire Shanahan but I also think that Snyder might give Shanahan 1 more losing season and then expect winning seasons. That's the most slack I see Snyder giving Shanahan. So at the very least Shanahan needs to have a winning team either enxt year or the year after that. With our current QB situation that just isn't going to happen. So how does Shanahan get a decent QB? I'm not talking about a HOF QB like Montanna, Marino, etc. But I think we at least have to have a "good" QB like we had with Rypien, Theismann or Brad Johnson (who admitedly was better with other teams). How can Shanahan NOT draft a QB this year? And the QB is going to have to pan out to be a decent QB so planning on getting the next Tom Brady in the 6th round isn't going to be his plan.

What would you do? You've got this draft or maybe next years draft to get a QB. if you draft him this year he only has to win 7 games and then win 8 games the following year but if you wait until the following draft he needs to win 8 games as a rookie.

What would I do? I'd check out the price for Luck. I think he's worth two 1st round picks plus some later round picks (maybe a 3rd and a 4th). if the cost is more than that I check out the cost of moving up to draft RGIII. First I'd make sure he even plans on going to the NFL. I think it's likely but you have to do your homeowork. If I can get RGIII for a reasonable price then I pick him up. If not I'm down to the bigger gambles and of those I'd consider Foles, Weeden and Tannehill. Now the big gamble, can I trade back and still get my QB? I don't think I'd risk my job on that - I'm drafting him with my 1st round pick even if others think I'm reaching.

You might ask, what about FA QBs? I don;t see one worth pursuing. I don't want to be the guy stuck with a Kolb or Cassel. Most of these FA QBs are at best a good backup and not starting material and they often look better than they really are when they play for a really good team (Patriots, last years Eagles and the Packers) and they come in for a game or two and put up decent stats. So I have no interest in the FA QB market.

What would you do to avoid getting fired?

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Comments

You asked quite a few questions

I think Shanahan has one more year to show significant improvement. The crowds at our home stadium are becoming ridiculous, we have no such thing as home field advantage. The only way to change that is by winning.
In my opinion, the quickest way to become a winning team, is to be able to win your division.

We are only a few players away from having the talent to do this–and in my opinion quarterback is not something we need to spend huge resources on. All this team needs to do to have a good shot at winning the division next year is to limit turnovers on offense and to make more of the opportunities that the defense provides. The defense needs to improve against the run and produce more turnovers.
The offense needs to go back to basics–run the ball well, use play action for the deep strike passing game.
We need more talent on the offensive line and that unit needs to gel and play better. With our current tight ends and the emergence of either Paul or Hank as a red zone threat, we would have all we need to be competitive and win the division.

From there, you could then devote the resources to improve the skill positions to elite level and be set up for multiple championship runs.

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Dec 23, 2011 10:54 AM EST reply actions

I hope you're right but I don't think Grossman is going to provide what is needed

even in the short term, Grossman is inadequate. Living in the Midwest means the bears games get shown regularly and in watching Bears games I’ve seen plenty of Grossman. He is a very streaky player and what we’ve seen this year is a good streak. Get him on a bad streak and you’ll be pulling your hair out and wishing you had some other option. Betting that Grossman can be consistent is foolish. And keep in mind that those bears teams had a great (not just good) defense and a good running game.

At the absolute least, we need to draft a QB this year, maybe not trading up to get him but drafting a 1st or 2nd round pick.

by aFan4Life on Dec 23, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions

I totally agree-the only Rex Grossman supporter in Washington

Is Kyle Shanahan.

Please don’t mistake any of my comments as being supportive of the current quarterbacks–they need to be upgraded

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Dec 23, 2011 12:07 PM EST up reply actions

Those turnovers and lack of a deep strike passing game are both largely and i mean 90% on grossman

I blame the other 10% on poor OL and an awful recieving core

by alwaysremember21 on Dec 23, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions

thanks for clarifying 77

Bout to ask how do you limit turnovers when Rex will never change but I guess I am curious what you mean about expending too many resources for a QB. It varies person to person, of course, but I say we have enough pieces to be competitive at the very least but consistency at QB is most important for us presently.

How many times has the D given us the ball back (via TO’s and 3 & outs) and the O just gives the ball right back. Looking at a few of our games, if the O would have gotten at least a FG in those situations then our season would look dramatically different, or actually have possibly blown out another team.

Short version: I want a QB and I want him now!

"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson

by irishgoon on Dec 23, 2011 12:31 PM EST up reply actions

Rex is not the answer and we need another QB but...

How many times has the defense been completely unable to stop the opposing offense late in the 4th quarter when we needed it. Lets not pretend that defense has been better than they have been.

Troy Aikman is the greatest announcer of all time.

by Jeff Bernard on Dec 23, 2011 1:07 PM EST up reply actions

The defense is better than the offense but thats more by default not merit

by alwaysremember21 on Dec 23, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions

I agree, we need a NT and some other upgrades

but I think a true NT would improve our defense more than anything. CB would be my next priority.

by aFan4Life on Dec 23, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions

I never stated in my post that the D was super fantastic, however that wasn't my focus

I just stated that they have given the O plenty of opportunities to do something to which the O has squandered the opportunities.

And yes I agree, the D has failed on occasion on stopping long drives but it could be argued that many of those have come from the D being so freaking tired b/c the O can’t take more than 30 seconds off the clock.

"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson

by irishgoon on Dec 23, 2011 2:25 PM EST up reply actions

It doesn't help

when the D have been on the field all day.

"Women should have three breasts - two in front and one in the back for dancing." -Al Bundy

by HankMonahan on Dec 23, 2011 9:51 PM EST up reply actions

I think you kind of answered your own question

Get rid of Rex Grossman and you get rid of two turnovers per game, truthfully.

Quarterback is not the only problem with this team. Fundamentally there are many things that need to be improved, if this coaching staff can’t fix them, then we need to bring in new position coaches.

The secondary could use some tweaking talent wise, particularly at safety and nickel corner. I have never been a fan of Slowik as a coach, and he continues to be mediocre in my eyes, the production of the secondary is not equal to the players. Obviously, on offense, the line needs needs serious attention–talent, coaching, and time together will make this unit better.

We have some good players on special teams and a good coach. The only room for a group that I see is to get rid of banks and replace him with somebody larger, Paul is an excellent candidate.

I’m not extending to much on a quarterback now, we are upgrading quite a few positions and build some debth.
I would like to see a game manager type quarterback brought in to fill the time gap required to grow our own franchise quarterback. By franchise quarterback I mean a player who fits our system and is able to thrive in it for many years. This type of player does not need to be drafted in the top 10 in my opinion. If we have a day in the top 10 and the front office sees a player that can fill that role, then we take him.
I am against trading up to get someone, it always cost more than it should and very rarely works out for any team–can you think of one example where this has worked?

I agree with what you have said–the offenses is leading us down when we get a shortk frield, but that doesn’t mean we have to traft the next Peyton Manning.

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Dec 23, 2011 1:48 PM EST up reply actions

lol 77 the only question I posed was what is your definition of spending too much for a QB

something that I can’t answer myself. I agree that a game- manager type would suffice for now but that is kind of my point. If someone can move the ball but is not guaranteed 1-3 turnovers then we might be in a good position. I never said break the bank but I want a competent QB.

"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson

by irishgoon on Dec 23, 2011 2:31 PM EST up reply actions

I guess my definition would be

You overspend if you trade pics to get into the top 10. I would not spend more than two high draft picks for a known quarterback.
I guess that means I’m either choosing one where I can in the draft, signing a free agent, or making a trade like we did for Donovan. (Just have to choose correctly)

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Dec 23, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions

roger that

"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson

by irishgoon on Dec 23, 2011 3:33 PM EST up reply actions

A few lists of 2012 free agent QBs.

http://www.kffl.com/static/nfl/features/freeagents/fa.php?option=All&y=2011
http://www.footballsfuture.com/freeagents.html

With the exception of Drew Brees, most of the QBs listed could be signed for less than $6 million. There are some that might be good game managers. It is ironic but Jason Campbell has better stats than all but a few others on these lists. IMO, the Lions have two of the better backup QBs. By clicking on the names on kffl.com’s list some stats are available as well as other information such as the games a player was on the 2011 inactive list. Performances in preseason games is all that is available on many QBs (from other sources).

by Jefferson1935 on Dec 25, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions

ugh

we might as well resign Grossman as anyone else on that list given that Brees will not be interested, Flynn will get 10x what he’s worth, and Campbell isn’t coming back here.

I’d rather draft a 6th round QB and just take my chances. If we’re going to have another year of horrid QB play then do it with someone who has a remote chance of panning out to be a decent QB.

by aFan4Life on Dec 26, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions

I also forgot to correct one thing

Steve Spurrier quit, he was not fired.
The "old ball coach" couldn’t handle the big boy game

It is entirely possible however, that he was urged to quit when Joe showed an interest

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Dec 23, 2011 12:09 PM EST reply actions

Snyder hasnt shown the patience to do things the right way he isnt content to enter a season with a mindset of we will lose a lot of games and get experience to our young players

Until that happens you cant rebuild properly

by alwaysremember21 on Dec 23, 2011 12:27 PM EST reply actions

Shanahan will get a new QB this year.

We have a good enough team to put a beating on a team like the Giants and go toe-to-toe with the Patriots and that’s with one of, if not the worst, quarterback in the NFL.

If we just get an accurate kid that can put some mustard on a deep one, we’re in good shape.

Also, count me as a guy that won’t be upset if we go after Luck.

I see it as more cushion for the pushin'

by iH8dallas on Dec 23, 2011 12:50 PM EST reply actions

glad ur in on Luck

by alwaysremember21 on Dec 23, 2011 1:17 PM EST up reply actions

hey H8, see your a Central grad, I go to law school there.....did you like it out there?

"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson

by irishgoon on Dec 23, 2011 2:36 PM EST up reply actions

For sure. I'm rocking my NCCU sweatshirt today actually.

I still have very close ties with the school, especially the Campus Echo.

I see it as more cushion for the pushin'

by iH8dallas on Dec 23, 2011 2:58 PM EST up reply actions

taking forever to get our grades back, I really like the school, with the exception of a few administrative things

"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson

by irishgoon on Dec 23, 2011 3:35 PM EST up reply actions

Yeah, I had a few issues with administrative things as well.

Your grades should be on EOL by now. Graduation was on Dec. 10th. That seems like a long time to wait.

I see it as more cushion for the pushin'

by iH8dallas on Dec 23, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions

BOOOO grades for us are still not up, was told by a 3L that had my section to expect ours 1st or 2nd week in Jan

"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson

by irishgoon on Dec 23, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions

Where do you watch the games that aren't televised?

I see it as more cushion for the pushin'

by iH8dallas on Dec 23, 2011 3:51 PM EST up reply actions

well I commute to the law school from Rocky Mount (bout an hour and a half drive)

but when I am in Raleigh we might go to Draft’s or the Alehouse but I don’t get to really get plastered unless my wife is out with me b/c I have that long drive home

"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson

by irishgoon on Dec 23, 2011 5:03 PM EST up reply actions

Luck or RGIII would both be okay by me with regards to a trade up.

I think you could even trade down and get a guy like Tannehill. Or…stay put.

Redskins @RGIII - 2012

by Copious 1 on Dec 23, 2011 3:08 PM EST up reply actions

Shanhan has until 2013 to field a winning team

Snyder really can’t afford to get rid of him any sooner IMO, because the backlash from the fans and media would be harsh. Shanny is going to try and upgrade the QB position this offseason to the best of his abilites, but I dont think he will mortgage the teams future in the draft to get Luck or Griffin. We need a qb, and Im sure he knows that, but there is no clear QB solution for next year-

When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey

by Redskin44 on Dec 23, 2011 3:34 PM EST reply actions

One thing people need

To be clear on.

In general teams (Patriots) seem to get ahead in the long run by trading down for more picks

Now, for the record, I love the IDEA OF trading back for extra picks. But people who look at the Patriots and think that that’s how you build a team FROM SCRATCH need to delve a little deeper.
When the Pats started this routine of trading back every year, they already had a ton of talent on the team, and therefor had the luxury to bypass the better players. Belichek had guys like Lawyer Milloy, Ty Law, Willie McGinest, Richard Seymour, etc, etc..that made up a stout defense which won them the Superbowl. Little by little, he trickled the old talent out, and the new talent in. But the bottom line is, he ALWAYS had a stockpile of talent.
Trading back is hardly a bad idea, but you have to realize in doing so, you’re bypassing better players. Some teams can afford to do that, and some teams can’t. Because, at the end of the day, you need the best players to win in this league.

Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.

by CJHutch on Dec 23, 2011 4:06 PM EST reply actions

Belichick has been critcized recently on those trade backs

i mean, they might have the worst defense in the entire NFL. And as good as Welker, or Gronk, or Hernandez seem to be- the reality is the Pats success is currently a house of cards built upon Tom Brady. That is a 5 win team without him. Having offensive players also play defense is not the genius of Belichick, it;s a sorry ass defense that every team in the league torches

by DCrez on Dec 23, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions

even us......

"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson

by irishgoon on Dec 23, 2011 5:04 PM EST up reply actions

Exactly

I get lambasted all the time for saying the Pats are over rated now. I’m not saying they’re bad by a long shot. What I’m saying is that they’re a victim of their own success. Belichek and Brady have become such egomaniacs that they ruined their run. They’re so worried about dominating opponents, that they forgot what got them their Superbowls in the first place – defense. They went from having the best playoff defense in the league, to having a defense that can’t stop a pig from climbing a tree. Belichek, in particular, is at fault for discarding his strategy of building an unpredictable, dominant defense and letting Brady take care of getting enough points to win.

by CJHutch on Dec 23, 2011 7:56 PM EST up reply actions

Hasn't the Redskins faithful exercised patience this long

with some of the hideous moves that Dan Snyder made in the past?

by Big Spoon on Dec 24, 2011 8:29 PM EST reply actions

it's not a question of our patience with Snyder

it’s a question of Snyders patience with losing seasons.

We can’t fire Snyder (or it would have already happened) but Snyder can fire Shanahan.

by aFan4Life on Dec 26, 2011 9:15 AM EST up reply actions

Shanahan isn't stupid

I refuse to believe that a HC that has been in the game as long as Shanny genuinely thinks that he can consistently win football games with Rex Grossman starting at QB. We will have at least one, probably two new QB’s on the roster when the 2012 season starts. I’d be absolutely stunned, not to mention furious if it was any other way

by JD For Breakfast on Dec 27, 2011 2:25 PM EST reply actions