Why use a 1st round pick on a QB? Here's why
by aFan4Life on Dec 15, 2011 11:49 AM EST
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PrintHere the way I look at it, the odds of getting a decent starting QB go up dramatically when you use a 1st round pick.
I looked at all of the QBs who have thrown for > 1000 yards this season:
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2 |
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6 |
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1 |
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1 |
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1 |
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1 |
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UDFA |
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Cam Newton |
1 |
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1 |
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Matt Ryan |
1 |
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1 |
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7 |
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1 |
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1 |
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2 |
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3 |
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6 |
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Alex Smith |
1 |
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3 |
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2 |
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1 |
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1 |
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1 |
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1 |
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2 |
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Matt Moore |
UDFA |
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1 |
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1 |
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7 |
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1 |
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6 |
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1 |
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1 |
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UDFA |
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1 |
Average draft round = 2.6 (I gave the UDFAs an eight for computing the average)
Take out the QBs who probably won't be leading their teams next season (John Skelton, Matt Moore and Curtis Painter) and it drops to 2.1563
Break down of starting QBs by when they were drafted
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Round |
1 |
2 |
3 |
4 |
5 |
6 |
7 |
UDFA |
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# drafted |
21 |
4 |
2 |
0 |
0 |
3 |
2 |
3 |
21 out of the top 35 QBs were drafted in the first round. That is not a fluke.
How many of these later round guys would you really want to lead your offense (as in, you think they can win a Super Bowl)?
Brees, Dalton, Jackson, Kolb, McCoy, Schaub, Brady, Hasselbeck, Painter, Fitzpatrick, Cassel, Romo, Moore, Skelton.
I'd only go for Brees, Brady, and Schaub (maybe Hasselbeck in his prime).
But let's go back and look at the QBs who have been drafted:
Starting in 2000 (When Brady was drafted) here are the number of QBs drafted by round
|
Round |
# drafted |
# somewhat successful |
% Successful |
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1st: |
32 |
25 |
0.78125 |
all but Ramsey, Carr, Boller, Losman, Young, Leinart, Russell |
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2nd |
14 |
3 |
0.214285714 |
Kolb, Jackson, Brees |
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3rd |
15 |
1 |
0.066666667 |
Schaub |
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4th |
13 |
1 |
0.076923077 |
Orton |
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5th |
25 |
1 |
0.04 |
Feeley (it's a stretch but live with it) |
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6th |
31 |
2 |
0.064516129 |
Brady, Bulger |
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7th |
25 |
1 |
0.04 |
Cassel |
It's a simplified look and we could argue forever about who is and isn’t “successful” but the principle doesn't change - Higher picks mean a better chance of success. We need a QB very badly.
Now let the ripping begin...
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Comments
wait what??
according to your success rate chart you have Alex Smith, Joey Harrington, Rex Grossman, Byron Leftwich, Brady Quinn, and Mark Sanchez in the somewhat successful pile.
You also need to look at where these guys were drafted: Mike Vick is a bust, this guy was a fad who ‘led’ the Falcons based on his running ability and was never a ‘franchise guy’, or what you’d expect of a top pick. And while guys like Chad Pennington or Jason Campbell aren’t ‘busts’ they are just solid QB’s.
As it stands none of the rookies should be counted either way just yet, and I don’t think you can look at it as a singular year thing. Matt Stafford was the top overall pick and he was injured and awful for two years before his breakout this year. Who’s to say he won’t have a bad year next year?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
And all three SB-preferred QBs
are taken out of the first round…
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Dec 15, 2011 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
Mike Vick is not a bust.
He’s thrown for 17k and rushed for 5k despite missing seasons in jail. His W-L record is also pretty good as I recall and he has shown he can be a pocket passer (62%, 3k yards, 21td/6int last season).
Is he worth $100mill? Whole different question entirely, but bust? No way
by DCrez on Dec 15, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he was never paid $100M for anything.
those are always inflated, false numbers
"By far the worst performers on the (R*dskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 15, 2011 3:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well sure, but it's still the value of the contract
Just like Albert Haynesworth signed a $100 million contract. He didn’t pocket $100 million, but I think we can all agree he didnt earn close to any amount he made
also part of the reason he didn't make the $100 million of the first deal was the fact that it got voided b/c he was a felon
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Hes a bust and Roethlisburger is one of the best qbs in the nfl? How are you evaluating qbs?
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
you think Vick wasn't a bust??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
yeah i'd love to hear how he wasn't a bust, or even semi successful
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I'd love to tell you
but you’d just argue with me………..so what’s the point?
Crying Lion
by Tiller56 on Dec 15, 2011 7:45 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
awesome logic
maybe b/c you don’t have any evidence
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
You used to be fun to debate with
But lately, your just like Parks, and as you can see, I just stopped trying with him.
It’s just lost it’s luster. Sorry.
Crying Lion
sorry to ruin your parade
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
how is that even debatable?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
umm what does what he did last year for the Eagles have any bearing on whether or not he was a bust?
he was really bad with the Falcons, and was a bust even prior to being arrested and jailed for 2 years.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I will say that if Vick would have actually put in the time earlier in his career he could have been much better
Lots of athletes are like that.
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 7:07 PM EST up reply actions
Mike Vick in Atlanta:
Completion : 53.8
TD: 4.1
INT%: 3.0
YPA: 6.7
Rating: 75.7
Sack %: 9.8
And oh yeah he got arrested and went to jail.
I don’t care how much he ran, that is not a ’successful top pick.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
what stats are those?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Read you above statement
and figure it out
Crying Lion
by Tiller56 on Dec 15, 2011 7:50 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
the running stats...awesome he's the worst throwing QB in the league
but he’s great b/c he’s the best running QB…fantastic logic
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Better than you logic of just omiting them
Crying Lion
by Tiller56 on Dec 15, 2011 7:53 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
how did i omit them
I said “I don’t care how much he ran, that isn’t a successful pick”
Vick could have had a 1,200 yards a year on the ground, wouldn’t have made him worth while…but i’d still love to hear what evidence you have to say that Vick wasn’t a bust, and/or how he’s better than Roethlisberger.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Sorry man
not worth my time. You have never known me to back down from a good debate, and you can never accuse me of not providing supporting evidence, but I’m just getting tired of this back and forth.
Crying Lion
by Tiller56 on Dec 15, 2011 8:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i'm sorry dude but that's a cop out
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Cant we all just get along???
Steve Young would never have recieved a shot without his mobility, you cant ignore Vick’s athleticism when hes the greatest athlete to ever play his position. Its like ignoring Deon Sanders speed and only looking at his tackling….
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 12:30 AM EST up reply actions
yeah but it is like saying
that if Marshall Faulk (who i believe is the all time leader among backs in receiving yards) wouldn’t be considered a bust if he had a career rushing average of under 3.0. That is the equivalent.
Sure Sanders was a bad tackler but that isn’t nearly as important for the position. Vick was not good at his position with the Falcons and his speed isn’t comparable to Young, b/c Young actually did something with it.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
yeah but it is like saying that if Marshall Faulk (who i believe is the all time leader among backs in receiving yards) wouldn’t be considered a bust if he had a career rushing average of under 3.0. That is the equivalent.
Sure Sanders was a bad tackler but that isn’t nearly as important for the position. Vick was not good at his position with the Falcons and his speed isn’t comparable to Young, b/c Young actually did something with it.
This is the prob I have debating with you. alwaysremember21 makes a point, which is valid, and totally relates to the arguement at hand, yet you come up with a response like this.
It’s ok on a blog to admit to being wrong………………..hell, I’ve done it pleanty, and have even written posts about it to tell the public I fucked up. I was wrong on my evaluation of Matt Barkley from the beginning of the season, and I admitted it. If been wrong on bets I’ve made with HH menbers, and I paid up. Need I go on?
You never admit to being wrong, and you argue with anyone over anything, eventhough the premis of your arguement may be way off base.
I’m waiting on your arguement with this comment.
Crying Lion
huh?
1. Exactly how is my response not appropriate to his? I addressed both his Sanders and Young analogies and showed that its not the same situation, while using a more comparable one.
2. I do admit when I’m wrong. i’ve said that my prediction on Caleb Hanie was wrong, as was my thought that Lichtensteiger couldn’t be even an average starter. I really want to know how i’m wrong here? How is Vick not a bust?
3. How is my premise way off base??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Ok
First, please define what “bust” is, in the context of Vick. Do you mean he wasn’t worth the top pick? Are you referring to his off-field troubles? Do you mean he’s not worth the money? If so, these are not what makes a guy a bust.
You pointed specifically to stats to back your arguement, so I’m assuming your looking at this aspect of his game.
This is a player who ranks 1st in NFL HIstory in rushing yards for a QB. The Falcons knew what he was when they drafted him, and they knew they were getting a running QB. It’s kind of hard to rate Vick’s career, yet say you don’t really care how many yards he ran for. That’s just not fair, considering that’s a huge part of his game.
The man was also selecte to 4 pro bowls – I don’t think that happens to “busts”. He was also selected as the 2010 comeback player of the year.
Again, we are talking about a guy who has over 15,000 career passing yards, and 5000 rushing yards in his career, which by the way, was just around 7 full seasons.
Crying Lion
huh?
Do you mean he wasn’t worth the top pick? Are you referring to his off-field troubles? Do you mean he’s not worth the money? If so, these are not what makes a guy a bust.
How is that not exactly what makes a guy a bust??
So what if he is the top rushing QB in league history? What does that matter if you can’t complete the ball or move it through the air. Yes the Falcons new they were getting a running QB, but I’m pretty sure they thought he’d throw the ball at some point, which is probably why they drafted WR’s, and traded for Pearless Price. If they thought he’d just run the ball they’d probably draft linemen and backs.
I get that he went to 4 Pro Bowls, but I’m sorry it is quite clear those weren’t deserved. You aren’t a ‘Pro Bowl’ caliber QB if you can’t throw the ball. Maybe he should have gone as a RB.
And again what does his 2010 comeback player of the year award mean to anything? The Falcons drafted him not the Eagles. So if Rex Grossman had thrown for 4,000 yards this year and went to a Pro Bowl the Bears should feel vindicated for drafting him and wasting a first rounder? (and 15,000 throwing yards is awful, that is 157 yards per game).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:32 AM EST up reply actions
If I was in Atlanta
I would consider him a bust…
taking his entire NFL career into account, not so much
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Dec 16, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
But "bust" isn't entirely accurate
I mean, he went to jail, not turn out to suck.
Bust isn’t the right word.
"By far the worst performers on the (R*dskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I don't know I would say 'bust' as a term is generally in relation to your draft status, money, or other factors
for instance Gus Ferrotte, wasn’t a good or great QB, but he wasn’t a ‘bust’, b/c his value for a 7th rounder was pretty high.
Kerry Collins, was a top 5 overall pick, and despite throwing for 40,000 career yards he is a bust. In addition to never having great numbers, the Panthers were forced to cut him do to ineffectiveness and his alcohol abuse.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 12:09 PM EST up reply actions
do you know what 'bust' means??
It doesn’t necessarily mean bad… As i stated in my example.
Collins was a bust, for a guy who went 5th overall.
I’ll get to his Carolina days in a second, but here are his career numbers:
55.7%, 6.5 YPA, 3.3 TD%, 3.1 INT %, 73.5 QB rating
His Carolina numbers:
51.8%, 6.2 YPA, 3.5 TD%, 4.0 INT%, 66.0 QB rating.
He told the coach mid-way through his 4th season that he wanted to be sat and his heart wasn’t in it, at which point he was released. He later admitted he was an alcoholic.
While he was a good back up/spot starter and had a couple decent years starting for the Giants, he def. was never the QB he was projected to be overall. And the Panthers didn’t come close to getting their value for him.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
no
I don’t think you know what the word “bust” means is context to NFL QB’s.
Do yourself a favor, and go google “NFL QB BUSTS”. Your really backing yourself in a corner here, now all of a sudden trying to change the definition of what a bust is.
Don’t insult our intelligence here. We are all intelligent people. When someone says a QB in the NFL is a “bust”, football people know what that means.
Spin Doctor…………….
Crying Lion
Hey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsdy_rct6uo
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
so why exactly was Collins not a 'Bust'
whad did he do in Carolina that makes him not a bust?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I would say
it’s clearly his years with the Giants and the Raiders between 2000-2005 that take him out of the “bust” catagory.
Also, you don’t last for 16 years in the league, with over 150 starts if your a bust.
Did you at least google “NFL QB Busts” like I asked you?
Crying Lion
first off this entire post is about drafting a QB in the first round
bust is in relation to draft position, unless we are talking about a free agent bust (i.e. Archuleta). What Collins did with the Giants or Raiders hardly qualifies, since the Panthers didnt trade him.
But going further look at his time with those clubs. He had one year with a completion percentage above 60%, and two years with a rating above 80. That is Rex Grossman territory right there.
yes I googled it, not sure what that is supposed to prove…
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
When you say the word 'Bust"
your clearly talking about a guys career.
And Kerry Collins career numbers do not qualify him as a bust.
Crying Lion
why would I be talking about guys careers
bust is a relative term. If I said Kerry Collins was a horrible QB, that is more definitive.
Now a guy could be a ‘bust’ for his career, but it isn’t guaranteed. And its not just about draft picks, example Brandon Lloyd was a huge bust for us. Yet he no longer is, nor was he prior to coming to Washington.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:11 AM EST up reply actions
Duh
Cause that’s what constitutes being a bust!
Come on man, your just arguing to argue now.
Crying Lion
what are you talking about??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:31 AM EST up reply actions
can i say that i don't want to get involved in this debate really but...
this kinda tickled me
do you know what ‘bust’ means??
It doesn’t necessarily mean bad
Hold up i am gonna let you finish but…..
busts
Jamarcus Russel is a classic bust and I don’t think Vick or Collins fit into the same category.
if you fall well below the value of the pick, i.e. 'flop'
I’d consider that a Bust, those might be bigger busts, but the Falcons and the panthers that didn’t even get him to play his rookie contract fall into that category.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
So now we have the publics general perception of QB bust
and we have Steveo’s perception of a QB bust.
Who’s right?
Crying Lion
by Tiller56 on Dec 17, 2011 8:10 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
huh? blame Webster's man for defining bust, not me
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
how?? this discussion is about draft picks
and whether a team got value for said draft pick. Again I ask, if Rex Grossman starts having a couple decent years is he no longer a bust??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
sorry a 'bust draft pick'
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
No it's not
The issue is clearly about you calling a player a bust based on the cryteria YOU define
Crying Lion
my definition is value relative to draft status (and in Vick's case the trade value)
not sure how that isn’t correct.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
Tiller, you often ask whether an opponent fears any/some Skins
player. It is obvious that Vick is feared by opponents. In 2010 and 2011, his legs opened up the passing game for the Eagles. He is less of a bust as a QB
than the Broncos QB, but they are both unorthodox in ways that make them hard to defense.
by Jefferson1935 on Dec 16, 2011 7:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I agree Jeff
and I think this is what made him the most dynamic player in the NFL for a span before his off-field troubles hit.
It’s hard to call the NFL’s most dynamic player, and a guy that struck terror into the hearts of defenses, a bust.
Great point!
Crying Lion
@Jefferson
What Vick did in 2010 and 2011 has no bearing on his value to the Falcons though, so that doesn’t help him in the ‘bust’ category. Vick has grown into a very good passer, and now he’s a good QB.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:14 AM EST up reply actions
Vick has grown into a very good passer, and now he’s a good QB.
But he’s still a bust……………………………….haha….slowing backtracking.
Crying Lion
wow swing and a miss
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
i’m sorry dude but that’s a cop out
When have I eve copped out? You and I debate one-on one more than anyone on HH, and it’s not even close.
Don’t ever accuse me of copping out! You, and everyone else on here know that’s not true.
Crying Lion
dude I call it like I see it
you make multiple comments mocking me, then when i present evidence, and ask for your reasons why you think the opposite you say ‘you won’t debate it’
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Again
because I feel this needs repeating:
You and I have engaged in more debates on HH, than any other two posters(hell, we have often taken up entire threads with our back to back). I don’t view this as a pissing contest. The reasoning is done to benefit the readers.
If you want to call me a cop out, you can go find yourself someone else to debate with.
Point is, you called vick a bust, and provided your own reasoning, but omitted a huge part of made Michael Vick the most exciting player in the game at a point in his career. I didn’t agree with your supporting stats, and I called you out on that, to which you began arguing. It was going no where with you(like it has been a lot recently), so I backed off.
About the comments mocking you: That’s what its come to with you anymore. Sorry. You have turned into Parks 2.0. If you come back to being the same ole’ Steveo I once had great discussions with, I’ll be happy to engage you.
Crying Lion
so quarterback stats aren't relevant for debating QB's now?
and i did acknowledge his rushing stats…i just said that I didn’t care how much he ran, it doesn’t make him a good or even great QB.
Compare Vick now, a time when he does actually complete the ball, and to his teammates none the less. His rushing is a big benefit b/c he’s a DUAL threat, before he was just a running threat.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:09 AM EST up reply actions
Good or great was not what we are talking about here
you specifically used the word “Bust”. I’m not saying he was great, or ever consistantly a top 5 guy. I’m saying he was FAR from a bust.
Crying Lion
so a well below average QB that is a great runner is average at best overall (and that is being generous)
and that isn’t a bust? For a 1st overall pick, who was paid MILLIONS?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Bust ?
You can debate , argue , defend , or debate all the STATS you want , but the most important STAT for a QB ,are wins and losses ! Why did the Falcons not build a team around Vick , like they have around Ryan . If Vick had the weapons around him that Ryan has , his completion percentage , and yards per completion would have been much better . He was picked # 1 by the Falcons to be an explosive , RUNNING QB . They built their O-line for run blocking , and built the team to win by running the football , and playing solid defense . Mike Vick was , and is , exactly the QB that they drafted .
I am in no way a Vick supporter . I am a pet owner , and love animals .
Mike Vick is an arrogant , selfishn , overpais asshole , but he is not a bust !
by EldonD on Dec 16, 2011 10:46 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
they invested quite a bit into receivers
in 2003 they traded their first and 4th (it might have been 3rd) for Perless Price, 2004 signed Dez White and drafted Michael Jenkins in the first, 2005 drafted Roddy White in the first.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 11:10 AM EST up reply actions
Not disagreeing that they tried but with the exception of White those guys suck
the best laid plans…
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yes and Vick sucked for them also
you can’t say oh those plans didn’t work, when part of the reason was Vick himself.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I know your trying hard(and I really can't figure out why)
To stand behind this reasoning of your’s, that Vick was a bust, but I don’t think your getting many takers.
It’s the hollidays. Maybe a good time to just let it go.
Crying Lion
well its not a popularity contest, i'm dealing in facts
Vick was a failure for the Falcons, not sure how that isn’t clear
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Yeah, your right
Stats don’t prove it, pro bowls don’t prove it, being the most feared offensive player in the league doesn’t prove it.
But YOUR facts opinions sure do.
I’m sold………where do I sign?
Crying Lion
last i checked the stats were on my side
go ask a Falcons fan or team ownership if Vick was a bust?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:15 AM EST up reply actions
Actually, this is what I asked you to do
and by the way, the stats are clearly not on your side, nor is anyone else on here with a football brain.
Fail
Crying Lion
how are the stats not on my side
he was a horrible passer, that seems pretty important in evaluating a QB.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
BUST !!!
Iwould say that Steveo26’s definition of a bust , is a bust !
thanks for the input! and really good argument
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I don't think you and I have the same sense of what makes a player a bust, SteveO.
But since I refuse to Take Tiller’s side on anything, I’ll leave it at that.
Irony (n.) -Michael Westbrook as the hero on Bully Beatdown.
haha thanks i think
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
This is a bust
@Callahan_9 on the twitter machine.
by Diesel44 on Dec 17, 2011 6:55 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Agreed, the jury is still out.
More evidence is needed.
Irony (n.) -Michael Westbrook as the hero on Bully Beatdown.
Also..
A lot of the higher picked QB’s are NOT going to be given up on by their team for years or if they are like Quinn, Leinart and others they’re going to be picked up by other teams so they maintain longevity which you can classify as “somewhat successful”. Doesn’t mean they can play worth a damn. On the other hand having a lot of success in college doesn’t necessarily translate in to success in the NFL. It is what it is…a crap shoot. Probably as many #1 QB’s flame out as make it. Seems sort of weird in my mind that you select QB’s who threw over 1,000 yards as the marker.
by DudleyDoright on Dec 15, 2011 6:29 PM EST up reply actions
Tell us something we don't know.
It’s not like there are five bajillion other fanposts that say the EXACT SAME THING.
Contrary to popular belief, I am not Jewish.
I like the breakdown
it just says what we already know though…you want a good qb you gotta get him. They don’t grow on trees and no neither do sean taylor
Counting cards isn't illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane.
That isnt the sentiment in DC 95% of our fans like FA
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
In most cases though
Teams don’t let really good QB’s become free agents.
Teams generally dont let any good players become free agents unless they cant avoid it
99% of the time a free agent is unwanted by his team due to either lack of ability or prohibitive cost.
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
what is somewhat successful?
Matt Schaub has put up some decent numbers, but Houston is going to the playoffs for the first time EVER this year…with TJ Yates at the helm.
Kolb…seriously? what has he done other than get overvalued in a trade?
There are lots of other names on there i could argue about their success, but i’m not really feeling it right now. I do agree though that typically, better players are taken in the first round. I’m pretty sure it’s not a coincedence though, i think it has something to do with scouting.
I was going for the general point
which is that it’s very difficult to get a decent QB without using a 1st round pick.
I agree that a lot of the QB’s I listed as somewhat successful aren’t someone I’d want for us, I just didn’t want to spend all my time evaluating them.
hahahaha
i think it has something to do with scouting.
Counting cards isn't illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane.
An ironic genius?
If so, well played.
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Dec 15, 2011 1:43 PM EST up reply actions
Why are people using the same stats about once a month to justify taking a QB?
Give it up, you’re preaching to the choir.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Parks you could of been nicer.
You don’t know if he is a deranged teen looking for some love.
Give him credit he did a lot more footwork than most.
Counting cards isn't illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane.
I agree.
This kid is probably going to so upset and saddened by your disparaging remarkes Parks, that he is going to roam the streets; commit crimes; have unprotected sex, with multiple partners; share needles and contract the HIV virus. And it is all your fault. Are you happy, Parks? You just gave this kid full-blown A.I.D.S.
my bad
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I really appreciate your attempt to be quantitative
but now we have to have the whole argument about opportunity and how higher picks get a longer leash, and then about your definition of “somewhat successful,” and then we have to have someone play the “franchise quarterback” card so we can all hem and haw about that. Then someone jumps in and talks about how you never know anything. Even after all that, someone will still jump in and say something like “Tom Brady was an 8th round pick, so we should trade down!” or some shit like that.
nice, a reasonable reply
Without some kind of attempt to use facts the whole discussion has become “he said / she said” without any movement. It will probably stay that way forever but why not make SOME kind of attenpt to move beyond that.
There are lots of arguments that could be made either way and opportunity would be a very valid discussion. Defining successful is also a valid idea to contend as it probably means something different to every person, I tried to list anyone who wasn’t a complete bust.
I have noticed that there has been little mention made of the teams who have spent lots of draft picks on OL but still didn’t go anywhere, especially if they had a sorry QB.
I like you point about people commenting on whether or not someone knows something when none of us here really have any way to measure what anyone else knows. Typically it’s the folks who know the least who are first to comment about how much someone else doesn’t know.
look i appreciate any attempt to further the debate and using some sort of numerical basis
but you can’t point to a single year and proclaim it a success. Especially when your standard for success is more than 1,000 yards passing in a single season, and when more than a few names listed above are arguably worse than Rex Grossman.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Must take a QB in the first
Everyone commenting will have their opinions on what QB’s mentioned were successful or not, but can’t dispute the pattern you showed on first round QB’s vs everyone else.
Shanahan traded back and stockpiled picks last year because he knew he needed an influx of youth and depth with a concentration on defense.
There are already some potential playmakers on offense already in Hankerson, Helu, & Davis (assuming he’s re-signed). There is depth on offense too, but only when all starters are healthy. Shanahan won’t be forced this year to stockpile draft picks so he’ll be able to take a QB in the first round.
this is based on a single year of data points...doesn't really show a 'pattern'
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
no it isn't
read the entire post, I went back to 2000
by aFan4Life on Dec 15, 2011 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
AFan4Life
I think you did a good job, and used facts to support your claim. Don’t listen to all the stuffed shirts on here. They obviously have their own adgenda.
Nice work
Crying Lion
exactly....
there are a few people here worth talking to and debating/discussing, the others I think just seek approval as they can’t formulate an argument worth responding to.
"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson
thank god you never have an agenda
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
haha it's not about me, its about the fact you this is the pot calling the kettle black
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
thanks, coming from someone else who has actually coached it means a lot
last night I was looking at teams that have invested heavily (using 1st and 2nd round picks) in OL and it’s been interesting. Since 2000 there are 4 teams which have used the most 1st and 2nd round picks on OL: Jacksonville with 7 picks, San Francisco with 7 picks, Seattle with 5 picks, and Tampa Bay with 5 picks where most teams had 3 or 4 (unless they were like Cerrato and ignored the OL). What did they get for their investment? Not much as only Tampa Bay has a winning average of over 50%, no Super Bowl wins, and one lonely Super Bowl appearance.
I’ve always supported building the OL but it doesn’t have to be done with 1st round picks and given the poor likehood of a later round QB panning out I think it is wiser to pick up a guy who will make the biggest impact.
Jacksonville has spent 7 1st and 2nd round picks since 2000 on OL,
I’ve always supported building the OL but it doesn’t have to be done with 1st round picks and given the poor likehood of a later round QB panning out I think it is wiser to pick up a guy who will make the biggest impact
This is how I feel in a nutshell.
Crying Lion
I have something I should post that shows exactly what you guys are talking about
Many interior gys even on good lines were lower round picks
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
That is a reason why many of the good lines were drafted by and brought up through the organization
It really bonds them together and gets them on the same page. The hogs were that way
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:18 PM EST up reply actions
like who??
Cook is awful, Hurt has been horrible, Smith had a rough debut. None of these guys have shown any promise of even being backups going forward. Maybe they’ll develop, but I wouldn’t bank on it.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I think picks in rounds 3-5 in upcoming drafts should be spent on interior linemen
Many people here have supported getting a center like Jones in the 3rd, I just hope the people making these decisions start thinking the same way
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:40 PM EST up reply actions
Not sure I agree on Hurt
think he could be a reliable back up.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
That is a minor consolation when our line is in the state its in
Baby steps i guess
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:44 PM EST up reply actions
Hopefully
i keep hoping Ol in the 2nd and 3rd, make a big push for 1 good FA, and 1 reliable FA for next year
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I would be happy with drafting and starting some new OL
Until the foundation is formed im not a fan of FA because they could block a youngster that makes a difference. I think the redskins have work to do before they become contenders again, once they reach that point find that one FA to complete the team
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
you can't build it all through the draft
i wish you could but you can’t. We have to use the money, lets use it on players we need.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Agreed, We do now
But hopefully we will eventually develop into a team that builds and develops through the draft and become less dependent on FAs.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
GB did and the steelers who im oh so fond of did before them
Perenially good teams do well in the draft not the FA market
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 4:19 PM EST up reply actions
maybe he still could
but he’s gotten abused so far this year. Now he probably shouldn’t have ever been playing, but the point is to say we have ‘a lot of young guys on this team’ is wrong outside the fact that their ages are young. These guys don’t project to be backups at this point, much less starters.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Thats what I meant
young by age, and ripe to be developed………………….jeez, Negative Nancy.
Who peed in your corn flakes?
Did Parks find another O-Line buddy, or do you just need a hug.
Crying Lion
their age doesn't matter if they aren't talented
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
"old and talentless" are the qualities we rave over
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 4:20 PM EST up reply actions
So now your a coach
AND talent evaluator? God, why aren’t you on the Redskins staff? You surely know more about the players than the coaches and scouts.
Crying Lion
when have I ever said I'm a coach?
and last I checked Tiller you ranted on players more than me.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:17 AM EST up reply actions
you either promote players or trash them
you have just as many opinions on personnel as everyone else
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:36 AM EST up reply actions
maybe he still could (anonymous he).
Anonymous because the Skins have given up on some OL that did not “look” like they would become starters or even good back ups. Capers was in the Skins organization mainly PS for 3 years. He has been on and off the Giants PS a few times this season.
Capers’ measurables look good on paper. Hurt doesn’t particularly look good on paper (he probably does not have the talent for ZBS).
QBs are analyzed more thoroughly then just about any other position, yet have the biggest bust meter.
by Jefferson1935 on Dec 16, 2011 8:07 PM EST up reply actions
haha yeah i meant Hurt
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Much of Hurt's problems
and this was a knock on him pre draft, is that he needed to loose some of the “fleshiness”. A year on the SC program could do him a world of good.
Crying Lion
Agreed !
You did exactly what you set out to do . You showed why it would be more likely to get a better QB in the 1st round . I believe you were trying to show this , due to others suggesting taking a Tackle in the 1st round , and a QB in the second .
I think there's more bang per draft pick this way
but to be honest, will I be let down if we go OT in round 1 and QB in round 2? Just a little.
The thing is when it comes to the 2 positions, both are highly sought after but QB even more so than OT which is why there’s always a stampede for QBS.
It’s like there are 2 lines waiting for free food. 1 line has steak and the other line has hamburgers. I like hamburgers but if there’s free steak that’s going to be the long line.
by aFan4Life on Dec 16, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
huh??
you used a single year of starting QB’s, if you went back to 2000 you’d see far fewer 1st round QB’s
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
The league has changed a lot as of recent
and the OP was taking that into account when he chose how far to go back.
Crying Lion
he did a SINGLE YEAR
boy that CBA really changed things
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
no it doesn't
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
please explain
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Look
I understand the post completely fine. I have no reason to explain it to you. Go ask the OP if you need help comprehending.
Crying Lion
seeing how many of this year's current starters were 1st rounders is not a valid argument
that is 1 data point, it’s not looking at last year, the year before etc.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I did enjoy the breakdown....
I actually saw on another thread that someone mentioned potentially drafting 2 QB’s which I think is not a bad idea.
"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson
Who would be your two Tiller? I would like Barkley/RG3 then maybe Foles or the Weed man
"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson
I like your first two
but with the next drafted QB, it would have to be a later round guy. We can’t really gog back to back QB picks, and that’s what we would have to do with Foles. Weeden would be interesting, and I may consider a 3rd for him. I might give Keenum a look later. I’d consider Cousins if he were after the 4th.
My top later round guy would be Russel Wilson. I know he’s short, but the kid has some skills. I’d give him a shot in the 5th.
Crying Lion
yeah but it was a nice thought on Foles as well.
I am not too big on Cousins but Keenum possibly if Weeden isn’t available
"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson
I'm not big on Cousins either
But I’d draft him after the 4th if he were there. IMO that could be a value pick.
Crying Lion
Yeah, I mean we have the Sex Cannon and the Mormon who says all the right things but....
so something must be done!
"You can build a million bridges, suck one dick, you're not a bridgebuilder you are a cocksucker." - - Woody Harrelson
Tough group .
I understand your point , but let’s not overlook the fact that there are 3 or 4 guys that will go in the 2nd round of the 2012 QB draft class , that are better QB’ s than most of the guys drafted in the first round of 2011 , and are better than most of the top of the 2013 class. 2012 draft is a very QB rich draft . There are 7 or 8 QB’s that may end up being franchise , starting QB’s in the next 2 -3 years .
but let’s not overlook the fact that there are 3 or 4 guys that will go in the 2nd round of the 2012 QB draft class , that are better QB’ s than most of the guys drafted in the first round of 2011 , and are better than most of the top of the 2013 class
Who are these guys you speak of? And who will they be better than?
Crying Lion
I may have taken Foles over Ponder.
And have you not heard abotu the greatest qb prospect in history RYAN TANNEHILL-MASTER OF ALL HE SURVEYS???
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 7:09 PM EST up reply actions
I like Ponder but hes a 3rd round player maybe late second
He isnt a top 12 pick, I think Minny took him because they are striving to be good right now. Mainly because AP wont be AP forever
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 12:27 AM EST up reply actions
also
comparing Ponder to Foles, who I also have a 2nd round grade on(but earlier in the 2nd), I’d take Foles any day of the week over ponder.
Crying Lion
I put Ponder in that game manager category of player
I think his upside is very limited
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:04 PM EST up reply actions
Tannehill, Foles and Weeden are better than Locker or Gabbert
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Tiller why is it that you take this holier than thou stance and say everyone else is wrong, but when someone challenges you and presents evidence its not worth arguing
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Steveo
I used to enjoy discussing many things with you, but you have changed. It’s just not worth my time, and truthfully, it just clogs up the post for other readers.
Sorry man.
Crying Lion
so you think statements like
‘Mike Vick is not a bust, you need to lay off the cough syrup’ are more valid to these posts than having actual debates, and using real evidence??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
You failed to acknowledge key evidence
The man is the all-time leader for rushing yards as a QB.
Crying Lion
who cares? They were still a passing offense, it's not as though they ran the run option
QB stats are far more important to the discussion.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
really turned me around on that one
so I should care more about a stat than it is worth?
How well Vick ran has little bearing on whether or not he was a bust
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Just don't omitt it
That’s all i’m asking. It’s who is is. We know it, the Falcons knew it when they drafted him. The whole NFL knows it. Why can’t you just accept it. It was a major part of the mans game.
Crying Lion
and he scared a lot of defenses with his running
I don’t like Vick as a QB but he created a lot of problems for defenses.
yes but the 'fear' caused by his running ability should have made it easier to pass
yet his numbers are horrible
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
which is why I don't like him
but he was average, not terrible which is what ‘bust’ means to me.
he was the top overall pick in the draft, how does 'average' cut it?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
It may not "cut it"
but it sure as hell doesn’t qualify him as a bust.
Tell me, how does a guy who was just “average”, make 4 pro bowls?
Crying Lion
3 pro bowls....not sure how that fact keeps escaping you
as what he does in Philly is meaningless to the discussion.
And people looked at Vick’s rushing stats and thought he was Pro Bowl worthy (even though he sucked as a passer). Guess what sometimes people are wrong. Derek Jeter has won multiple Gold Golves…despite being among the leagues worst defensive Shortstops.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:22 AM EST up reply actions
It is certainly not meaningless
A bust is defined by a career, not a seson, or three or four…………………………a players entire career…….get it.
Even if you want to dismiss the pro bowl in Philly, care to explain the other three?
Crying Lion
why is bust defined by a career when we are talking draft pick value??
Can you explain the other 3 Pro Bowls? B/c his numbers don’t support it, so could it be that it was that people are putting too much stock in his running ability??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
OK
for YOUR arguement, we will keep it confined to ONLY Vicks time in Atlanta.
2001(rookie) 8 games, 785 yards, 2 TD’s, 3 INT’s – 39 rushes, 289yds 1 TD
2002 – 15 games, 2936yds, 16 TDs, 8 INT – 113 rushes, 777 yards, 8 TD’s
2003(broken leg preseason) – 5 games, 585 yds, 4 TD’s, 3 INT’s – 40 rushes, 255 yds, 1 TD
2004 – 15 games, 2313 yards, 14 TD’s, 12 INT’s – 120 rushes, 902 yds, 3 TD’s
2005 – 15 games, 2412 yds, 15 TD’s, 13 INt’s – 102 rushes, 597 yds, 6 TD’s
2006 – 16 games, 2474yds, 20 TD’s, 13 INT’s – 123 rushes, 1039 yds, 2 TD’s
So lets take the 4 seasons he played at least 15 games(because I know you hate to judge a rookie season, and we really can’t judge the season he broke his leg):
He accounted for(on average) over 3300 total yards of offense, and 20 TD’s per season. He made 3 pro bowls, and broke records for rushing yards in a season, and career. He signed the largest contract in NFL history at the time, when the Falcons gave him 130 Mill, over 10 years, with 37Mill in bonus.
He led Atlanta to two playoff appearances in the 4 years he started over 15 games.
No way is this a bust.
Crying Lion
okay but in those seasons his rating was only over 80 once
completion percentage was never above 56%. averaged 39 sacks (which is very high considering the limited number of dropbacks) which averaged a negative 244 yards per year, and he averaged a combined 16.25 turnovers (INT’s and fumbles lost) per year.
Vick was a lot of hype, but at the end of the day he was an extremely poor passer, and a turnover and sack machine.
And you can say that the ‘Falcons knew what they were getting’ but if that was the case why did they use three straight 1st round picks (1 via trade) on receivers? Obviously they wanted to be an effective passing team, and Vick was given every opportunity.
Yes the Falcons won games, but that can’t be fully attributed to Vick. Look at Mark Sanchez should he get credit for the Jets successes (i do think Vick was better than Sanchez b/c while their passing numbers are similar Vick could run).
Again even factoring in the running Vick was at best an average QB during that time. Not exactly what the Falcons paid for.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Look beyond the stats YOU post
Yes the Falcons won games, but that can’t be fully attributed to Vick
Were they in spite of him? I think it’s fair to say, I i’d assume you’ll agree, that Vick made those Falcons teams what they were. They were never great, but Vick made them a contender, exciting, and very dangerous.
I’m attempting to give you the benefit of the doubt here, and keep things in the context of which you asked(although A bust is clearly defined by a playes entire carreer), and even though I have pointed out what he meant to this team. by accounting for an average of 3300 total yards, and over 20 TD’s per season, you still come back with the “okay, But”.
Also the comparison of Vick to Sanchez was a very poor one. One is a very ordinary, pedestrian QB, and the other, before his suspension, was the most exciting player in the NFL.
Crying Lion
he was the most exciting runner in the NFL
and since when is 3,300 total yards and 20 TD’s good? or even great? Especially when his sacks take away about 250 of that, and he has 16 giveaways a year. At best that is average, still not near the value of the top overall pick (esp. one they traded up for).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
I asked if he was good as well?
but what I said is it was average, and that’s not worth the pick.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
so if Robert Griffin came into the Redskins and ran for 1,200 yards or whatever
but couldn’t complete 55% of his passes you’d be okay with that?? How is that even remotely acceptable.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I have always preffered a more traditonal
QB who stands in the pocket and gets the ball downfield, but if a guy adds that extra dimension of being able to run, and more importantly win games, I ok with it.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
yes but thats not what the argument is
would you rather a QB be able to run and not throw, or throw and not run??
Vick couldn’t do both when he was in Atlanta which makes him a bust.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I have an idea fro you.......
Why don’t you go to the Falcons site, and start a discussion with their fans(since they are the ones who knew him best), and bring up this bust discussion, to see where they stand?
Crying Lion
Poor comparison
RG3 is a passer first, and a damn good one at that. Vick, in college, was know as a runner, and was very Raw in the passing dept when he came out after his soph season.
Like I said, Falcons knew exactly what they were getting.
Crying Lion
by Tiller56 on Dec 17, 2011 8:23 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
WHAT?
I never said I thought RGIII was going to be a bust like Vick. I’m asking you if that performance is acceptable. If Griffin were to come in and have some brilliant highlight runs, but kill drive after drive with incomplete passes and INT’s would you be okay with it??
Falcons knew that he was raw, didn’t mean they were okay with him never developing as a passer. Jake Locker is a raw passer, (not nearly as raw as Vick) do you think the Titans will be okay with him never developing?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions
You gave an example
that if Griffin came in and performed like Vick. But I’m saying that Vick was expected to perform that way, because that’s always what he was.
The circumstances would be 100% different around RG3, because that’s NOT what he is.
Keep things in the context of the discussion please.
Crying Lion
fine use Locker as an example then
Locker wasn’t expected to be a 60% passer based on his college numbers, should the fans be happy if he never develops?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:41 AM EST up reply actions
We'll see when he's given a few years in the league
no use using what if’s now. I know you love the intangible though.
Crying Lion
There is no holier than thou stance
If you havent noticed by now, some of the things I post are done intentionally, with that purpose. If you knew me at all(which by the way I don’t expect you to), you’d know I’m not at all like I come off on HH to you.
Crying Lion
Tiller, I will say that on many subjects, you tend to say "This is how I feel" and you refuse to look at stats or anything else to affect your position
On the subject of Michael Vick being a bust, I think that stats show that he has been a bust. But if you want to just use the smell test, can you honestly just look at Mike Vick and say he was worth the #1 overall pick, or would you say he has been somewhat of a disappointment?
I think it needs to be stated that there are varying degrees of Busts (thats what she said).
A player can be a bust (Michael Vick) without being an abject failure (JaMarcus Russel).
This
I think it needs to be stated that there are varying degrees of Busts
This!!!!!!! This is what needs to be looked at. You may have a broad definition of “bust”, but I don’t; not in the NFL that’s for sure. If you, or Steveo had said, “he didn’t live up to the hype of being the #1 pick”, then we have a logical discussion, but remember, those words were never used. It was “Bust”.
Also, if you you believe I refuse to look at stats, you dead wrong. I just refuse to look at them in the context that they are presented, like in this case, Steveo tried to show stats supporting that Vick was a Bust, yet he refused to acknowledge Vick’s rushing accomplishments, which I viewed to be very biased, so I refused to play the game with him. If your calling someone a bust(which is a very strong word), and you refuse to take all their stats and accomplishments into account, well, IMO, thats not really fair.
I hope you understand, and see my side of this. Steveo called me out, and said I copped out, because I refused to debate with him over this, but when have you even know me to cop out? Give me a level playing field, and I’m happy to discuss, and acknowledge all the stats you can present.
Crying Lion
Tiller, what's the difference?
If you say a player “didn’t like up to the hype”, then that means he didn’t live up to the value of his pick (in Vicks case the #1 overall) and that mean’s he’s a bust at some level.
Can you not see this logic?
by StephanHart on Dec 16, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
Put it into context
How can you say a man with 4 pro bowls, who is the all-time leader in rushing yards by a QB, is a bust?
Tell me he didn’t live up to the number 1 overall selection of the draft. tell me his off-field issues downplayed what he did on the field. Tell me anything.
Bust, in the context that Steveo gave(using some of his career stats), doen not come close to considering him a bust.
Crying Lion
Varying degrees
I just think you’re defining Bust into a single category….thinking that I am equating Vick to Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russel.
There are varying degrees of Busts. Vick is somewhat of a bust. After being drafted #1 overall, he has never been an elite QB
by StephanHart on Dec 16, 2011 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Never said he was elite
he’s in between. Great at some thing, poor at some.
Still, very far from a bust.
Wrap your hands around this if you can(I surely can’t). Steveo, in a post above, also called Kerry Collins a bust……………….wow.
Crying Lion
still waiting to hear how Collins wasn't a bust
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
well since you never answered the question...
how were the Panthers benefited by their pick of Collins??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
A "bust" is defined over a career
not a few seasons. I don’t know why this is hard for you to understand.
Crying Lion
how is it defined as a career?
we are talking about draft pick busts here…and I made that completely clear. Bust, i.e. flop is based on your draft position. My example again, Gus Ferrotte not a bust, b/c the Redskins got great value for a 7th round pick. The Panthers took Collins 5th overall and he was awful for them (his numbers were worse for them than Frerotte’s for the Skins), and he basically quit on his team.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:30 AM EST up reply actions
Fail
When you throw out a word Bust, like you did, and do not provide cryteria for that word, it become a blanket statement. If you had prefaced that by saying some of the things your now saying, people may have understood your side a little better, though I doubt they would have agreed.
Your doing an aweful lot of back tracking here.
Crying Lion
I DID and I have already told you i did
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah
after backtracking 100 times.
The only think you said relavent to him being a bust, was about where he was drafted
You also need to look at where these guys were drafted: Mike Vick is a bust, this guy was a fad who ‘led’ the Falcons based on his running ability and was never a ‘franchise guy’, or what you’d expect of a top pick. And while guys like Chad Pennington or Jason Campbell aren’t ‘busts’ they are just solid QB’s.
So you said he was a bust based on where he was drafted, and only later did you decide to add stats to your arguement, but managed to leave out the one stat(rushing yards), that made him so great at the time.
You also go on to say he was never a “franshise guy”, yet the Falcons in 2005 signed him to a 10 year 130 mil contract, with 37 mil in bonus.
Crying Lion
How did I ever back track?
I didn’t add stats for Pennington or Campbell (both of whom mine you actually completed the ball)
Teams overpay for players all the time, that isn’t the basis for him being a ‘franchise’ guy.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Every post you made about Vick
you decided to add new cryteria to, to support your definition of “bust”.
Simply choose a different word, and we would be having this conversation.
You could have easily said: Given the draft spot he was chose in, the average passing numbers while with the Falcons, and his trouble with the law, I believe Michael Vick, in the early part of his career, was a disappointment, and did not live up to the hype of being the first player selected in the draft.
Doesn’t this sound a lot better, and also sets some cryteria to aid to you opinion, over simply saying Michael Vick was a “Bust” ?
Crying Lion
it is also what I said, and since when is disappointment and bust different
what new criteria have I added? I’m sorry I didn’t include all his fumbles the first time, I thought his int’s, rating, completion %, and YPA were enough…also the arrest and suspension.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
it is also what I said, and since when is disappointment and bust different
Man, you just keep getting better and better.
Disappointment may be not living up to the hype, or draft pick, but disappointment and bust are not the same.
Again, 4 pro bowls, and a franchise extending contract from the Falcons(THE TEAM WHO DRAFTED HIM, AND NEW HIM BEST)obviously didn’t think he was a bust
Do you really think you know more that the Falcons staff?
Why not just admit that “bust” was prob a poor choice of words, and lets move on.
Crying Lion
because its not,
show me how his numbers made him a quality pick and quarterback?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
I've already told you
and the falcons’s orginization showed you by the extension they gave him.
How can it be any more clear?
Crying Lion
how is that the basis for anything??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
In your eyes it's not
as you view everything but your own opinion to be stupid. I’m sure you think that was one of the worst things the Falcons could have done at the time, yet a coaching staff, owner and GM who are around the guys all the time, all felt he was worth it.
Crying Lion
So what...
this is what I don’t understand as a Redskins fan you know better than most that just b/c a coaching staff, GM and owner feel a player is worth a certain contract or amount of trade value (or draft position for that matter), it doesn’t make it so.
I understand the Falcons were in a tough position, given how much hype Vick had and how the fans loved him. But it was a bad deal even before it had to be voided.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 19, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I don't think I'm being narrow at all
Others are putting it into thier own context. I’m looking at the big picture, which is a players career. Isn’t that only fair?
I just think that Bust is a very strong, and incorrect work to use when describing Vick. There are many other words we could use to describe him, but bust is not one.
Crying Lion
actually I used his Falcons stats since those are the only ones that mattered to the debate
and I did say that he didn’t live up to his number 1 status, his contract and the impact of his off the field issues.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:44 AM EST up reply actions
And you can throw in Vick's rushing stats, that's fine
The fact remains that his NFL output was not/is not what the Atlanta Falcons were hoping for when they investing the #1 overall pick in Mike Vick.
His output fell below what is expected of a #1 overall QB. So, while he certainly is not anywhere close to a colossal failure, Vick is a bust.
- overall picks are supposed to be elite players in the NFL. Vick is a good QB at best, not elite.
by StephanHart on Dec 16, 2011 10:05 AM EST up reply actions
That is not the definition of a bust though
Use a different word, if you want to get your point across. I’d prob agree with it then.
Crying Lion
Bust by its very definition means 'failure or flop'
which is exactly how it is used here. Vick was a failure and flop for his draft status.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:38 AM EST up reply actions
yeah Pro Bowl voting is never wrong
just b/c they believed the hype that a running QB that couldn’t throw could succeed doesn’t make it true.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I pro bowl may be wrong
2 may even be wrong………………….but 4?
You get the award “come on man”
Crying Lion
so you think a QB who only has one or two TD's more than INT's and completes 56-58% of his passes is Pro Bowl worthy b/c he ran for 1,000 yards?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Fans and media do
And obviously the Eagles, one of the best run franchises in the NFL do too.
He made the pro bowls, so I don’t get your arguement here. No need for more stats. He made it to 4 of them. That pretty much says it.
Crying Lion
is there any logic in that thought?
fans and the media thought McNabb was a great pick up for the Skins…
how are Stats not a factor?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
you are the one that said stats are not a factor not me
i was just curious why? and how did I change the subject? You said that Fans and media liking a guy apparently doesn’t make him a bust.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:44 AM EST up reply actions
Yes
because you yourseld said:
I don’t care how much he ran, that is not a ’successful top pick
This right after you posted his passing stats, and the fact that he was arrested and went to jail.
Fail…..
Crying Lion
again how is that not clear
what amount could he run that would make it okay for those pathetic passing stats or going to jail?
If a CB averaged 4 sacks a year and became the all-time sack leader among CB’s, but they couldn’t cover or intercept the ball, would that still be good? And if they were a top pick would they not be a bust?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
We all agree
running ability is what made Vick special as a QB. No one will agrue this. These stats NEED to be taken into consideration when you look at his time in Atlanta. No If’s and’s or But’s. The guy had 1000 yards rushing is a season from the QB position.
Crying Lion
okay you didn't answer my question
Is that CB, who can’t do his main role not a bust just b/c he does a secondary function that doesn’t add near as much value?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Steveo
Busts, in the NFL, are considered total failures, who are usually out of the league after 3 years or so, or in the case of say a John Beck, a career backup.
When you call Vick a QB bust, you putting him in the same catagory as Jamarcus Russell, Ryan Leaf, Heath Schuler, Akili Smith etc., and we all know he is not in this catagory.
Crying Lion
where is that defined?
I’m not arguing that their are level of ‘busts’, (just as their are levels of greatness) but you can’t deny that the Falcons didn’t get their value (outside of maybe merchandise sales) for that pick (that they traded up for mind you).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:08 PM EST up reply actions
Oh
so now we are backtracking yet again, and saying they’re are different levels of Busts?
Maybe you could have said this, of defined it earlier…………………..just a thought.
So, to you have a “bust scale” you rate players on?
I’d like to see where Rex falls on this scale.
BTW, do you rate Rex as a bust?
Crying Lion
how is that backtracking??
my first statement said you have to judge a player based on their draft pick, that is what started this entire debate.
Yes I believe there is a bust scale, and of course Rex is on it. He had one marginal year with the Bears. He wasn’t a ‘major’ bust like Russell, Leaf, etc., and being a lower first round pick also doesn’t make it nearly as bad. But yes Grossman is a bust.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
Vick offered more value than Grossman
though I wouldn’t give him too much credit since Vick was 1st overall, and Grossman 22nd. The Flacons also had to trade up for Vick, setting the bar even higher.
Overall Vick isn’t as big of a bust as Grossman, but it is probably closer than you’d admit.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
It's not even close at all
as I don’t consider either one a bust. Grossman, I think is poor, but I do not put him in the bust catagory, and with Vick, you obviously know where I stand.
Crying Lion
yes to both of them
neither came close to living up to their draft status.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
If Alex Smith does start playing like a top 10 or 15 QB (for multiple seasons)
then yes I think you could take off the ‘bust label’. Now since it took him so long to develop there are still a lot of years of negative value there to overcome.
And yes to answer your other point you can overcome a bust label. I think Mark Sanchez is a huge bust. But if he starts putting it together next year and has a top 10 season, then does the same thing again the next year, then I’d no longer consider him a bust.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 19, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Can you once be a bust
then have an awakening, and go on to a good career, then not be considered a bust anymore?
Crying Lion
I guess winning a Super Bowl doesn't mean much
Dilfer just can’t get any respect
Trent Dilfer won a SB with the Buccaneers??
And honestly did he even win it with the Ravens, he was a game manager for a fantastic defense and really good ground game.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 19, 2011 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
How did I not say that he 'lived up to the hype' or that there was a broader definition based on where he was drafted
my very first words in this thread on the topic:
You also need to look at where these guys were drafted: Mike Vick is a bust, this guy was a fad who ‘led’ the Falcons based on his running ability and was never a ‘franchise guy’, or what you’d expect of a top pick.
And my first response to you after citing his amazing stats
I don’t care how much he ran, that is not a ’successful top pick.
Again both of the above statements showed that i was also aware of his rushing stats, but that those are far secondary to his needs of being a passer.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:14 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe the Falcons thought it was a good pick
They knew what he was when they drafted him. It was no secret.
I don’t see how you can call the all-time leader in rushing yards, and a guy who made 4 pro bowls a bust. sorry.
Crying Lion
Because he's a QB, Tiller...not a RB. His rushing achievements are great, but they haven't made him an elite QB, which is what you expect from a #1 overall QB pick
Anything short of elite is somewhat of a bust. Vick is nowhere near a colossal bust, but he didn’t become what is expected of a #1 overall pick
by StephanHart on Dec 16, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
Anything short of elite is somewhat of a bust
Totally unfair, and not true.
why won’t anyone acknowledge the 4 pro bowls he went to. I’ve made mention of it at least 4 times. I may be accidental. Two could be questioned………..but 4!
Crying Lion
He was the most dynamic offensive weapon in the league for several seasons including last year
I remember seeing him live in both college and the pros. guy was unbelievable made everyone else look they were in slow motion around him
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
doesn't matter...if you have that kinda talent you should be better
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
well since he only went to 3
why is it you only use pro bowls? oh yeah the stats, logic and everything else don’t back up your argument
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
No
of course they don’t.
In case you haven’t noticed, pro bowls usually come along with success on the field, which usually has a direct coorllation to stats and W-L records.
Guess the fog has overtaken your eyes and mind.
Again, FAIL
Crying Lion
i think we all maybe over value
top 10 picks . We have had some good ones (Bailey, Samuels, Arrington), some disasters (Westbrook, Schuler, Howard), and some who have been OK to good but have not lived up to expectations (Rogers, Landry, TW*). While this year i would be inclined to use it on a QB (and its a risky move). I would argue in the future we would be better off with the philosphy of trading down for more picks.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
In general I dont think you need a team of top 10 picks
but I think it is important to get a few of those types of talents on your team. particularly at qb and I like to have a top 10 defensive guy to lead the D
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:37 PM EST up reply actions
i think you can also
find elite talent inlater 1st, 2nd, and 3rd
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
i agree but I also think each situation is different
for instance in years where there is a ton of draft depth, trading back is smart b/c you can get a multitude of good picks. Whereas if it is a down year, it is probably better not to trade back too much as the extra picks are less likely to pan out.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
The talent is different at different positions
high ranking interior oline, RTs, ILBs, safeties and even RBs can be found in rounds 2-3. The first round is a land of LTs and pass rushers with qbs and flashy skill position players mixed inat the top.
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 3:02 PM EST up reply actions
what does last year's Pro Bowl have to do with the argument?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Every Pro Bowl has to do with the arguement
and, speaking of arguements, this shouldn’t even be one.
Crying Lion
i agree i'm not really sure how you can make a case
your only evidence is rushing numbers and 3 pro bowls
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
SteveO, gotta give it up
You and Tiller aren’t disagreeing on Michael Vick’s talent or achievements.
You’re disageeing on what a Bust is. I would venture to say that Tiller sees it as a player being a Bust or Not a Bust, without varying degrees in between. Just a difference in thought
you're probably right
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Thank you Stephan
for being the voice of reason here. Had we defined what “bust” meant to Steveo, before this all took place, maybe we could have agreed on a common ground. “Bust” as a blanket statement, can only be taken one way, especially when no context is given.
FWIW, I still want to see Steveo go on to the Falcons site and bring this up.
Crying Lion
How did I not define the context??
as I’ve already shown you once and repeated 100 times this is in relation to their draft position and what they did with that first team. Not sure how that isn’t clear.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:40 AM EST up reply actions
You never said what constitutes a bust to you
was only defined by the guys first team he played with. You can’t look at a guy who made 3 pro bowls with his drafted team, and a guy who was considered the most dangerous weapon in the NFL, when he was with his drafted team, then call him a bust.
You also can’t just omitt what he’s done with the Eagles. Like it or not, that’s part of the guys career.
Crying Lion
actually i did
Mike Vick in Atlanta:
Completion : 53.8
TD: 4.1
INT%: 3.0
YPA: 6.7
Rating: 75.7
Sack %: 9.8
And oh yeah he got arrested and went to jail.
I don’t care how much he ran, that is not a ’successful top pick.
The Pro Bowls are a product of his hype. He might have had 1 deserving PB season, and that was only b/c he actually had a 2-1 TD to INT ratio. After that throwing 14 TD’s and 13 INT’s in a year doesn’t really say "Pro Bowl’ to me.
we aren’t talking about career here, we are talking about the worthiness of a first round pick, not sure how that isn’t clear considering the post we are discussing this in.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:54 AM EST up reply actions
Even if we are just discussing his worthiness of being the #1 pick
I’ll STILL point to 3 pro bowls, which 1 I can believe may be hype, but not 3. I also point to the fact the Falcons felt he was the franchise, as evident in the contract extension they gave him in 2005, which was 10 years, 130 Mill, with 37 Mill in bonuses.
Please answer this! Do you give a bust a ten year contract worth 130 mill????
Crying Lion
That was a horrible contract even before him going to jail
and yes teams make bad decisions with contracts all the time. They saw the same things you did, doesn’t make it valid.
He’s a QB, his job is to throw the ball and complete it (to his own team). The running is great, but he’d have to be averaging 2,000 yards a year to make up for his pathetic passing.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Who cares if it was bad or not
The Falcons felt he was worth it. A team, and coaches who were around him every day in practice, and saw him play in every game, believed he was the face of their franchise. If they viewed him to be a bust, they would have parted ways, not given him the richest contract in NFL history.
That’s the point. No team in the NFL knew him better than Atlanta.
Do people give ’Busts" 130mill deals over 10 years?
I know how much you hate admitting your wrong, but man, you gotta take a step back on this one and re-evaluate youself, and you choice of words here.
I’m sorry you can’t see this, and I’m even more sorry that you keep fighting, and fighting.
Crying Lion
Tiller you're only evidence is money and pro bowls and oh yeah rushing yards
How many times was Vick a top 10 QB in the league? Top 15? Top 20?
based on rating (though the numbers for completion percentage, YPA, 1st down % TD%, INT% aren’t good either). In the 4 seasons that you mentioned he had zero top 10 finishes, zero top 15 finishes, He did have 3 top 20 finishes, but two of those he finished 20th overall. Sure the rushing yards might make him better than a couple of guys, but it doesn’t propel him into the top 10 or 15.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Top 10 finishes are reserved for the best QB's in the game.
NEVER, did you hear me say I considered Vick to be the best in the Game. I’m simply saying he is not a Bust as you describe him.
By the way, Pro Bowls are used as a measuring stick to a players career.
By the way, being the all-time leading rushing leader as a QB is impressive; not the task a bust can accomplish.
By the way, a franchise do not REWARD a bust with a record breaking NFL deal.
By the way………………you FAIL
Crying Lion
let me be very clear if you trade up to take a QB number 1 you better believe he's supposed to be a top 10 QB, and if not he should easily be top 15 year in year out
Vick wasn’t Pro Bowl worthy. I’m sorry but finishing tied for 20th in the league with Tim Rattay isn’t Pro Bowl worthy.
How is being a leading QB rusher (ignoring the fact that it is his time with the Eagles that set him over the top) impressive when his passing is well below average.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
It's impressive how ever way you spin it
and it’s even more impressive when every defense in the NFL knew he was a running threat, yet still couldn’t stop him.
This is what made him special.
Again, he couldn’t have been that bad, if he made 4 pro bowls, and had the richest contract in NFL history given to him by the same team that drafted him, and got to spend every day during the season around him.
Crying Lion
actually defenses could stop him...they just had to force him to throw
again with the Pro Bowls…DeAngelo Hall has 3 Pro Bowl trips does that mean he deserved them? (I’d say he def. deserved one, another is iffy, and last year was a joke).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 19, 2011 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
and oh yeah Tiller, since you do admit when you are wrong
I am still waiting for you admitting you were wrong about Kerry Collins.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions
I will never admit that
Kerry Collins is FAR from a Bust.
What is this thing you have of always trying to have me admit I’m wrong?
Crying Lion
dude you are the one who spent 10+ posts saying I was off on Collins being a bust and you never admitted to the failure
when I asked you point blank if the Panthers got their value out of that pick, you skirted the question. Now you keep trying to say that ‘I don’t like to admit I’m wrong’, ignoring the fact that you haven’t proved anything with either Vick or Collins, that is the pot calling the kettle black.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
This is not about proving anything
It’s what I believe to be your ignorance on the subject, and your blanket use of the word bust.
Like I said, change your wording, and you may be surprised how close we cold become on some of this.
Crying Lion
you understand that you are the one saying
that a player is either a ‘bust’ or ‘not a bust’. That is the definition of ‘black or white’ or ‘blanket statement’.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 19, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
The Jets thought Mark Sanchez was a good pick
doesn’t make him any less of a bust. I assume most teams ‘know what they are getting’. The Falcons chose to ignore Vick’s accuracy problems and his high INT rate.
His running ability by theory should make him a better passer, b/c teams are forced to put spy’s on him, or contain instead of blitz, yet he is a worse passer. So i’m not going to say his running ability makes him special.
Someone earlier used Steve Young as an example. Young used his mobility to buy time and complete throws, which is far more valuable than more running and less passing.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:43 AM EST up reply actions
Foles , Tannehill , Weeden
It’s also possible that Landry could slip to the 2nd round . Ponder and Gabbert aren’t as good , IMO .
I remember not to long ago the chargers took tomlinson and then brees
last year you have aj green and then andy d
redskins this year take blackmon and landry jones falls to the 2nd
Jones is a poor fit for this offense, he needs to go to a non-WCO
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Jones is more inaccurate than you'd like to see for the Skins, and he doesn't have great mobility or experience under center
he’s much better suited for a team who is in shotgun more and/or uses a lot of quick routes so he’d have a single read.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Your scouting of Jones is biased to just this year
One year does not make a career.
Your boy Tannehill had a down year, yet your not so quick to point the finger.
Crying Lion
I believe his point is that you don't want to use a top draft pick on a QB who just had a down season in an offense geared toward college, not nfl, offensive output
by StephanHart on Dec 16, 2011 10:06 AM EST up reply actions
exactly
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:16 AM EST up reply actions
um Dan Marino
had a down year his senior season and is was one the reasons he went from top 10 to 27th
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
that's true, but he also fell in the draft for a variety of reasons
and it’s not as though they ran a ‘spread type offense’ that wouldn’t transition to the NFL
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Argue, argue argue
that’s all you do anymore. You hate being called out, and it’s been happening an aweful lot lately.
Crying Lion
how are you calling me out??
you still haven’t showed any evidence in your arguments
and if you think Marino and Landry Jones are similar in anyway shape or form you need professional help.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
what are you even talking about?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
There was a lot of off the field drug based concerns that hurt Marino
Drugs were a bigger deal in those days
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:22 PM EST up reply actions
I think the dolphins may have spread some of the rumors actually
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions
gotta remember
at the start of the season Elway and marino were considered to be on the same level by many people
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Elway was the greatest qb prospect of all time there was nothing he couldnt do
Marino on the other hand had flaws that teams spend a whole season nit picking for
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:33 PM EST up reply actions
sorry, but I remember the year very well. Going into the
season they were a very close one and two.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I really like Marino he went to one of the colleges I attended but as a prospect he just wasnt as flashy as Elway
And remember those Pitt teams had some talent, unlike in recent years
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 2:42 PM EST up reply actions
I have family that attended Penn and Penn St things can get heated
Im a big hokie supporter as well
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 4:22 PM EST up reply actions
I will pull for the Hokies too
They are a team I always respected. Just can never route for sPitt.
Crying Lion
You should come basketball season
Unless you dont like to fizzle out in the tourney every year….
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 17, 2011 7:38 PM EST up reply actions
Oh so you are used to winning then...
that must be nice
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 17, 2011 10:01 PM EST up reply actions
I started watching them as a kid
I idolized JR Reed, and it kind of just stuck. In Junior High, I liked Mich too because of the fab five, but that stopped quickly when Penn State joined the Big 10, and Michigam became a hated foe.
Crying Lion
not a lot but some
and they surfaced just before the draft
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
have you responded to me yet on that?? you proclaimed it amazing when it clearly is just really good
def. not top 10 QB material
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
sorry i should have been more clear, top 10 draft pick material
Jones finished 17th in completion % and 35th in YPA in 2010 (both of which you’d expect to be higher in a spread offense)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I guess the 4500 yards and 38 TD's were just fotter
god your funny.
THIS, is exactly why I don’t use stats with you!!!!!!
Spin Doctor.
Crying Lion
Bryant Moniz from Hawaii had 300 more yards and another TD despite 60 less attempts is he better than Jones?
Jones led the nation in attempts, so it’s not a shocker that his yardage total was so jacked up.
Try using stats that actually apply
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I will never get anywhere with you on Jones
your just plain ignorant to the fact that he is a good QB.
So I guess what your trying to say, is that the 38 TD’s, 4500 yds, and 65% completion percentage were a Fluke?
Wow man, you have really went off the deep end.
Crying Lion
you are making it sound like he was the best ever
Sam Bradford in the same offense was far better, Colt McCoy in a similar offense was far better, as are plenty of other QB’s.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
you think Landry jones is a top 10 pick material?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Jones has had issues his entire college career
they became more exposed this season when more pressure went on him.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 16, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
Hey, just wondering
since your so good at QB scouting, what the hell happened to Aaron Rogers in the draft when he slid. Did you predict that too? Did you think he’d ever become the QB he is now?
Oh, but wait, he got to SIT…………….., your magic word………………….albiet behind a QB who wanted nothing to do with him, and was not about mentoring him at all.
Crying Lion
the coaches do the developing not the QB in front of him
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
You always talk about a QB having a mentor
to teach him how to be a pro, and how to handle certain aspects of the game………..do you not?
Crying Lion
you learn by watching a good pro
for instance Locker learns more from watching Hasselbeck than Gabbert would watching McNown. I don’t care if Hasselbeck ever says a word to the guy (I’d prefer it), but the coaches can give those teaching lessons as well. Just b/c Favre didn’t show Rodgers he liked him by sending him pictures of his dick, doesn’t mean that Rodgers didn’t learn a ton from him.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
How about some more fuel to this fire
let’s look at the QBs from another couple of angles.
Since 2005 there have been 34 QBs in the NFL who have thrown for at least 3.5K yards in 1 season. Here’s the list, note that I’ve left in rookies and 2nd/3rd year players who have come close to make the list as inclusive as possible:
Player Rnd Drafted
Aaron Rodgers 1
Andy Dalton 2
Ben Roethlisberger 1
Brett Favre 2
Blaine Gabbert 1
Cam Newton 1
Carson Palmer 1
Chad Pennington 1
Christian Ponder 1
David Garrard 4
Derek Anderson 6
Donovan McNabb 1
Drew Brees 2
Eli Manning 1
Jason Campbell 1
Jay Cutler 1
Joe Flacco 1
Jon Kitna 8
Kurt Warner 8
Kyle Orton 4
Marc Bulger 6
Mark Sanchez 1
Matt Cassel 7
Matt Hasselbeck 6
Matt Ryan 1
Matt Schaub 3
Matthew Stafford 1
Michael Vick 1
Peyton Manning* 1
Philip Rivers 1
Sam Bradford 1
Tim Tebow 1
Tom Brady 6
Tony Romo 8
Given an above average defense, good special teams and a good running game, I think most of these QBs could win a Super Bowl.
What rounds were they drafted in?
round # drafted %
1 20 60
2 3 9
3 1 3
4 1 3
5 0 0
6 4 12
7 1 3
8 / UDFA 3 9
So about 60% are 1st round QBs and another 9% are 2nd round QBs.
Lets look at it another way. Of the QBS that led their teams to playoff wins, what round did they come from? From 2000 – 2010 there were 140 playoff games so there were 140 times a QB won a game. If you total the number of wins for QBs by round (for example, Brady has won an astounding 14 playoff games) and then group the wins by what round the QB was drafted in, you get these facts:
69 wins were won by QBs drafted in the 1st round accounting for 49% of the wins
6 wins were won by QBs drafted in the 2nd round accounting for 4% of the wins
5 wins were won by QBs drafted in the 4th round accounting for 4% of the wins
1 wins were won by QBs drafted in the 5th round accounting for > 1% of the wins
39 wins were won by QBs drafted in the 6th round accounting for 28% of the wins
19 wins were won by QBs not drafted (UDFAs) accounting for 16% of the wins
Spot the trend yet? It’s draft early or late. A great deal of this is due to the fact that when a QB looks like he might be good he gets drafted early because QBs have so much more impact on the game than any other position.
And for those who just want a Trent Dilfer QB and don’t want to try and get an Aaron Rodgers QB:
- DILFER WAS A 1ST ROUND DRAFT PICK ****
He was drafted by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in the 1st round (6th overall) of the 1994 NFL Draft.
- 6TH OVERALL PICK ****
Yeah there’s a chance we’ll get a bust – you “play the game – you take your chances” but the odds go up a lot with a 1st round pick.
Man
Steveo is going to tear this apart.
He’s on PFF as we speak, preparing his arguement.
It always starts,…………………..Yeah, but……
Anyways, again, nice job man. You really went the extra effort.
Crying Lion
funny and exactly why I'm still waiting for an actual argument
this weekend I might do some more trolling of stats on OL and see what it turns up. I wish I could hit the pro fottball reference database directly (with SQL) to make all this data mining easier. All this copying and pasting sure is time consuming.
haha you've never once tried to engage in an argument
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
hardly and you have yet to provide any justification for your "nuh uh"s
by aFan4Life on Dec 16, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
what are you talking about?
I provided ample evidence for Vick and Collins (though he wasn’t in your original debate), and showed how average QB’s shouldn’t be considered.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
But your examples for Vick and Collins were just WRONG
and how about those arguements against Landry Jones that you threw out, after I brough up his outstanding soph season in 2010 – talk about throwing shit against the wall.
The premise for you arguements is just a bunch of fodder, designed ONLY to your point. You fail to take all aspects of a said player into account…………..hence the words “spin Doctor”.
Yeah, but………………………..I’m waiting………
Crying Lion
what are you talking about
you asked for 5 QB’s who were better in 2010 (a single season) and i found them pretty easily, and mention bunch more who should be considered b/c they weren’t in a spread system.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I never saw where you found me 5 QB's
who had a better 2010 season than Jones.
You mentioned the kid from Hawaii.
Crying Lion
and i'm sorry you don't understand the difference between draft bust and horrible player
but I think i made my case fairly clear.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 17, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
actually you epically failed
while I’m not a fan of Vick, none of my buddies who are football fans thought he could be considered a bust. He wasn’t totally dominant like they hoped for but he wasn’t awful either.
by aFan4Life on Dec 17, 2011 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
well there you go that's the evidence you need
Seriously? I have friends who are USC and Jets fans who think Mark Sanchez is ‘gods gift to QB’s’ doesn’t make it so.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
1 exception to a general rule proves nothing
there’s an exception to every general rule so you picking out 1 or or 2 guys means nothing in the bigger scheme of things.
by aFan4Life on Dec 18, 2011 8:42 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
there's an in between
there is something between bust and fulfilling all hopes and dreams. You’re trying to define everyone as great or awful and the real world just isn’t that black and white.
by aFan4Life on Dec 18, 2011 8:44 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
he's in la-la land
By his definition of bust nearly every NFL player picked in the first round is a bust because they don’t end up being HOFers. Trent Williams hasn’t been dominant so he’s a bust, Eric Berry hasn’t been dominant so he’s a bust, Aaron Curry was a top 5 pick and he hasn’t been dominant so he’s another bust, Matt Ryan must be a bust as he hasn’t been dominant either despite the Falcons mauling run game, LaRon landy was a top 6 pick so he must be a bust, A. J. Hawk was a top five pick and he hasn’t dominated so another bust.
If the whole focus is on whether or not a top 5 pick develops into a HOF player then you’re probably better off never having a top 5 pick so the expectations aren’t so high.
In reality, every pick is a huge gamble and the odds are against the GM/HC as the majority of top 5/10 picks end up being good but not great. Guys who provide above average play but don’t become one of the best to play the position. Guys who improve the team but don’t become great and therefor aren’t really worthy of where they were picked. Yeah…it’s ridiculous.
by aFan4Life on Dec 19, 2011 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
swing and a miss
Since when did I say they had to be HOF guys?
I simply said for a top guy like that (and yes top 5 picks) I’d expect him to be a top 15 player in his position (obviously for things like WR, OLB etc. you could expand it to top 25 since there are multiple starters per team). And no they don’t have to be that in year one or two, but I’d hope in 6 years like Vick had in Atlanta he’d be that 2 or 3 times (and hopefully top 10 once). Yet Vick never made it as a top 15 starter, and he was barely a top 20 starter in the league. What he’s doing now in Philly has zero bearing on his draft value.
Like it or not Michael Vick was not only not great in ATL, but he wasn’t even a good QB.
You mentioned Matt Ryan, and in this his 4th year he’s been Top 15 in now 2 of those seasons and top 20 in all four. No he’s not elite, and maybe he never will be, but that def. isn’t a draft bust.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 19, 2011 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
since when did i say that?
In fact this all started b/c I mentioned that these players need to be evaluated based on their draft status (not to mention their cost to acquire them). If Michael Vick was a mid-round pick, i wouldn’t say he was a bust. But he was the top overall pick, cost the Falcons not one but two huge contracts and they traded up for him giving up multiple picks.
You guys are the ones trying to define it that a bust = horrible, and there are no varying degrees.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 18, 2011 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
why?
why does bust have to be such a black and white issue. Those ‘greatest busts lists’ that you wanted me to google, most of them had Jeff George included on the list. Like Vick his team traded up to get him, and like Vick he was a very ineffective passer. So it is completely understandable to say he was a bust, but the one difference is the the Colts were able to ship George off and get a pair of 1st round picks (including one that became Marvin Harrison) plus a 3rd rounder for him. (also the example of George shows that it is not based on a career as George went on to have some productive years in the NFL).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Let me help you out here a bit
Before you blow a gasket or something. I don’t want you sick before the hollidays.
I’m going to end this rediculous discusion now. You have went into super defense mode here, and frankly, anything I(or anyone else for that matter)say to you, it’s going in one ear and out the other.
Relax, take a xanax and drink a beer, and have a Merry Christmas.
Crying Lion
excellent resolution
I knew a few days ago than no words would make a difference and what I’ve posted since then was purely for entertainment value.
+1
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 19, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
trust me man I'm fine
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 19, 2011 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
This is like the later years of Sam and Diane on Cheers.
Will you too just kiss already and see if it works or not?
Irony (n.) -Michael Westbrook as the hero on Bully Beatdown.
*two
Irony (n.) -Michael Westbrook as the hero on Bully Beatdown.
Nice job
All I can say if we do take a QB, I just hope they dont f*** it up like the last two. Not sure if Ramsey and Campbell would have ever become good QB’s but Redskin mgmt during that time sure did not help
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I'm curious
why do you try to make the list as ‘inclusive as possible’ I understand looking at the ‘whole field’, but a success rate should be high and it should be something that not just everyone should be able to obtain. For instance I don’t understand why guys like Vick and Sanchez are on the 3,500 yard list, when they’ve never had that many and are somewhat of longshots to reach it this year.
I like debating stats, but some horribly awful first round QB’s (Trent Dilfer, Grossman, Sanchez, etc.) have won playoff games (as have bad-mediocre non-first rounders), those shouldn’t be included as a ‘plus’.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
your boy Ben averages less than 3500 a year and has only hit the mark twice before this year where yardage has been crazy
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions
yardage isn't a great comparison b/c it is based on attempts and completions
and Roethlisberger’s YPA isn’t 2nd highest among active QB’s
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
take 26028 passing yds
divide by games played 112, and then multiply by 16. Ben would average over 3,700 yds per season
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
by Redskin44 on Dec 16, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
and considering he averages less attempts per game than the big names it is more impressive
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Youre cutting the stats in his favor, his average year to year does not put him on that pace
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
by using that method Vick had a 4000 yd season last year
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 5:30 PM EST up reply actions
not even close
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
3000 yds in 12 games, converts to 4000 in 16
but he didnt play 16
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions
Im doing against career passing yards
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
You can only count games he starts which basically throws 2009 out the window
Using that formula he has 3024 passing yds per season he would also have 919 rushing yds per season for a grand total of 3943 yds per season
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
yes. You are correct -not fair to Vick
actually thinking about a little It might be fairer to use look at the number (just looking at passing numbers, so not trying to take anything away from Vick there)
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
This might better way to level the stats. based on career # assume everybody went out next year and made 525 passing attempts
Comp Att PCT YDS YDS/ATT TD INT
Brees 345 525 65.8% 3,878 7.4 26 14
Cutler 321 525 61.1% 3,807 7.3 24 18
Ben 332 525 63.2% 4,232 8.1 27 13
Rivers 334 525 63.6% 4,187 8.0 28 13
Manning 307 525 58.5% 3,676 7.0 25 17
Vick 293 525 55.8% 3,652 7.0 23 15
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Vick comes out to 2520
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Actually I’m being extremely fair by creating a constant denominator to look at his stats compared to others like Rivers, Brees, Manning, or Cutler
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Youre compensating his inability to remain on the field for 16 games
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 5:42 PM EST up reply actions
which I do for Vick, or any other player using that formula
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Cutler does well also, average 3750 per 16 game season
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Im just saying that it is a favorable way to calculate things
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 5:53 PM EST up reply actions
It's not when trying to compare the body of work one QB has done
to another.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
i don't get what you are saying?
i’m not saying this between Vick and Big Ben, I’m saying Ben in general. You can’t use yards as a good barometer, since most QB’s throw more than the Steelers. For instance, Drew Brees averages 35.5 attempts per game, while Ben is at 28.8, that is 6.7 attempts per game difference. If you multiply that by 112, you get 750.4 more attempts, which at 8.1 YPA, is 6,078 more yards for his career.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Acutally
I.m a little confused as well, Tebow, Sanchez, Vick, Gabbert, Ponder, have not or are not on pace to through for over 3,500 yds. Is there a methodology there that Im missing?
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
he said he was keeping 1st and 2nd year guys who were close to be 'all inclusive'
but that distinction doesn’t apply to Sanchez or Vick, and Tebow, Gabbert and Ponder aren’t exactly ‘close’
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
feel free to take them out - do some work
are you so afraid of actually doing some work?
by aFan4Life on Dec 16, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
not exactly sure how i haven't?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I make the list as inclusive as possible because
in general I agree that a team doesn’t need a HOF QB to have a team which is competetive for many seasons – like the Gibbs 1.0 teams. So I deliberately don’t want to limit the QBs like Rodgers (or in those days, Marino). We played Marino on a SB and we won – proof positive of the theory.
Plus it would be easy and valid to argue that under better circumstances those QBs would have better stats.
Feel free to take off any of them you want and manipulate the stats but it won’t matter because most of the QBs who are good enough to win a SB are 1st rounders. That’s because there are always more teams who need such QBs than there are QBs. Demand > supply.
we dont have to worry about a first round qb now... they will be all gone....
no way is barkley worth trading up for not sure about rg3 but we cant aford to trade up for him either
Its a stupid argument
That does not mean a team takes a Qb in the 1st round. Its a case to have the 1st pick of the draft or hope there are 2 very good qbs and you can get 1 of them., but there are plenty of 1st round Qbs who sucked. The team should look at the player. Who cares what round they are drafted in? And i don’t consider Vick an NFL bust. He was a bust for Atlanta the same way Campbell is a bust for Washington.
by hambonejackson on Dec 19, 2011 12:16 AM EST reply actions
exactly the bust discussion is relative to where they were drafted and what they did for the team that drafted them.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
campbell was a double bust...
we had 4 or 5 coaches try to teach the man how to slide right we finaly gave us trying to teach him basic fottball and he gets hurt and forces the raiders to give up their future for carson palmer lol. jason needs to get out of the nfl and take john beck with him imo
Campbell was playing well this year and is clearly a legit NFL QB
nice try though.
"By far the worst performers on the (R*dskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
having 4 pr 5 coaches is a liability, not an advantage
Campbell had to learn an new offensive system nearly every year and that is terribly for a developing QB.
the expectations on him werent that high, he isnt a bust just like Tavarris Jackson isnt really a bust
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 21, 2011 1:32 PM EST up reply actions
I would disagree on the expectations not being that high
Jason was drafted to be the next Franchise QB of this team….the expectations couldn’t have been higher.
thats an unreal expectation for the 25th pick that should have been a second rounder
He wasnt that good as a prospect, neither was Ramsey
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 21, 2011 1:51 PM EST up reply actions
If you expect Niles Paul to be the next Jerry Rice prepare for disappointment
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 21, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
I Disagree
You don’t agree that QB’s taken in the 1st or 2nd round of the draft are taken with the expectation that they will be the future franchise QB?
As for comparing Niles Paul to Jerry Rice…..I never said Jason Campbell was picked and expected to be as good as Joe Montana (or whatever QB you think is the greatest ever). He was simply expected to be the franchise QB, a realistic expectation for someone taken 25th overall.
Moreover, your assertion that JC should have been a second round pick is subjective and littered with hindsight.
He had an 86 grade from scouts inc, im not the only person who thought he was a second rounder
Going on hindsight i wouldnt have drafted him in round 1 or 2. I know we wanted him to be the franchise i just wasnt that surprised he didnt pan out
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 21, 2011 2:07 PM EST up reply actions
I would disagree on the expectations not being that high
Jason was drafted to be the next Franchise QB of this team….the expectations couldn’t have been higher.
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