Wednesday's Filed: Quarterback or Stud Offensive Tackle?
by Ken Meringolo on Dec 14, 2011 3:37 PM EST
in NFL Draft 2012
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PrintSoooooo...yesterday's Ten Yard Fight comments section really blew up. That sure escalated quickly, eh? At one point, I recall arguing over the formula the NFL uses to determine how they dole out compensatory picks--even though nobody knows that formula, including the NFL. I am pretty sure David Stern invented the concept, though. If I had to bet, I would even suggest he is somehow involved in which teams get the best compensatory picks. We are all dumber for my ramblings (as usual).
One thing we debate endlessly here is how the Redskins should handle their top draft pick next season. On one hand, we need a dominant quarterback-of-the-future to come in and whisk us all away on his noble steed. (Those are Parks' words, not mine...to him, everything good ends up with some dude whisking him away on a noble steed.)
On the other hand, our offensive line is an injury and a bong hit away from being as bad as we have ever seen it.
My expectation is that this poll will result in a wildly overwhelming majority win for "quarterback." Having read some of the running commentary though lately, I think there is a real undercurrent of support for bringing in a top-notch offensive tackle. In a perfect world, the Redskins would somehow wrangle an extra first round pick in this draft to get both a quarterback and an offensive lineman.
But today, you have to choose one over the other. While I reserve the right to change my mind, I'll lead us off with...offensive tackle. And yes, I do consider it to be a slightly gutless pick even though it is a major need for this team. The truth is that if we don't draft in the top three, teams can and probably will trade past us to get one of the top three quarterbacks. After we whoop up on the Giants this week, we will likely secure a draft spot outside of the top five. Therefore, I will stand pat and take the best tackle prospect on the board, and pray that an Andy Dalton type is available when we draft in the second round.
For the purpose of this poll, there is no trading back and the decision is only between these two positions. So, have an opinion on where you think we will be drafting and decide whether it is in a spot where we take the best quarterback available or a stud tackle.
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Ok, I'll elaborate.
In 2008 the Falcons drafted Matt Ryan at #3 overall and then LT Sam Baker at #21 thereby filling 2 of the most important positions on the Offense. I’d like to see the Redskins do the same by drafting RG3 at #4 and then OT Mike Adams (OSU) / G Kelechi Osemele (ISU) / C Ben Jones (UGA) / or OT Levy Adcock (OSU). Grabbing the franchise QB and also shoring up this pathetic OL.
@Callahan_9 on the twitter machine.
by Diesel44 on Dec 14, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 2 recs
I vote you head drafter man
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
yeah i'm on the Osemele bandwagon
he may be there in the 2nd actually half of these guys may be there in the 2nd, but I also want Josh Chapman from Alabama
or Sanders and Brewster
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
You know who's 21st pick that was?
know what we did with it instead?
"By far the worst performers on the (R*dskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
traded down twice and took Kelly/Davis/Thomas
good times.
"By far the worst performers on the (R*dskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Just keep picking at that scab
Why dontcha? Worst draft ever.
Of course, ‘02 wasn’t much better. Coulda had Ed Reed, traded back for Patrick Ramsey. Coulda had Brian Westbrook, picked Ladell Betts. God I hate looking back.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
33-15 since drafting Ryan and Baker..Lost twice to the eventual Super Bowl Champions.
Elaw6- Shouldn’t you check your basement..I think your prisoner has your dog Precious and is refusing to put the lotion on her back.
@Callahan_9 on the twitter machine.
one thing though Baker has been pretty bad
he might not be Jamaal Brown bad, but he’s pretty bad. A lot of people think they will try to kick him inside to guard.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
He's injured. But the point is that we need both a QB and to upgrade the OL
@Callahan_9 on the twitter machine.
GOOD POINT!
drafting a QB and LT is dumbz.
"By far the worst performers on the (R*dskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
The Team can retain some flexibility without reducing the number of draft picks or player trades.
If the Skins can make some decent moves in free agency for some of their OL needs at center and guard, the tackle move can be held off until the 2nd round. Some of the tackles that have played in the 2011 season can provide depth if not starters
for 2012.
A free agent QB that can take the place of Beck and Crompton would mean Grossman coming back and the best rookie draft pick available (some QB better than Crompton).
While the OL draft may not be deep in the first round, it may be better than usual in rounds 2 through 4. Osemele does not look like a good candidate for the ZBS, i.e. too slow.
by Jefferson1935 on Dec 14, 2011 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
For as long as I've been following the draft, this seems like the best quarterback class.
I think it’s an alignment of need and opportunity that would probably point to drafting a QB, even in a world where we had just lost Trent Williams to a career-ending injury.
agreed
3 great QB prospects – why pass it up?
For everyone that throws out Tom Brady as a 5th round pick I’ll counter with Joe Jacoby as an undrafted OT.
Brady was a 6th rounder
And that is the most ridiculous argument out there when talking about drafting a franchise QB. It is like that commercial about expecting to get out of debt by some random dude leaving you his millions in inheritance. You can’t pin the future of you’re franchise on winning the lottery.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
the ridiculous argument is thinking your going to get the next Tom Brady with a late pick
And at this point we don’t even have a mediocre QB. We’ve needed a QB for a decade (or two) but after Shuler everyone was afraid to try and hit the home run so now we’ve had years and years of single base hits and wondering why we don’t improve. If you want a good QB you can’t be afraid to use a draft pick.
It won’t matter how good our OL is with our current QBs. Grossman had a good OL in Chicago and yet he was barely mediocre.
We need both QB and OL but the odds of getting a strting QB with a 2nd round or later pick are almost zero while the odds of getting a starting OL with a 2nd round or later pick are fairly good.
huh??
how are the odds basically zero? That seems odd then that so many teams find their starting QB’s that way.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
so many? name more than Tom Brady
and Dalton is an unknown – 1 decent year doesn’t make him a legit starter.
Drew Brees, Brett Favre, Matt Schaub, Kurt Warner, Tony Romo also all fit the bill
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
yeah you really turned the argument around there...
what if it is just one great QB and two really good ones?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:18 PM EST up reply actions
I'd love
To have a really good QB here. Been a long time since we’ve seen that.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2011 11:45 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
don't disagree
just think it isn’t the black and white situation people make it out to be
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 12:12 AM EST up reply actions
I'd love to have a good quarterback.
Just like I’d love to not see the felonies pile up when he starts getting murdered behind our “line”.
by Xin Baixiang on Dec 15, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
No way bro RG3 is an olympic alternate level hurdler so there is no way he will ever be touched.
He is like Michael Vick if Michael Vick was 3 times faster and was mixed with Tom Brady. He is a pretty much a lock for Canton.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
QB
I make this decision based on where we are right now. We have a LT, we are picking in the top five and we are only the second team in the draft who needs a QB. When things change (teams draft ahead of us, and no we shouldnt trade up for a QB, TW keeps smoking and is suspended for the year, more injuries), then I will alter my pick.
You're just jealous you don't have a noble steed
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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Is that you or Kevin?
West Springfield Spartans OUTSIDE LB #47
HTTR
by SpartanFS47 on Dec 14, 2011 4:20 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Both, Kevin is the bottom half
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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It kind of looks like Sideshow Bob…a terrible one.
"You know those balls that they put on car antennas so you can find them in the parking lot? Those should be on every car!" - Homer Simpson
Follow @HogsHaven
by Kevin Ewoldt on Dec 14, 2011 4:28 PM EST up reply actions
What about that horse makes it look "mexican" or gay?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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Mexico flag colored weisrband and colorful wristbands to begin with also
she had hands as big as Andre the Giants’ and she had an Adams apple as big as her balls
Pretty sure Red and Green is featured in over 100 national flags.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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you damn Italians
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:19 PM EST up reply actions
I don't like the poll choices
Which position should the Redskins target with their first round selection?
The Redskins will be targeting QB. Our offense leads the NFL in turnovers and we simply need a QB. Shanny will have it narrowed down to 1 the QB he wants. If fate has it where someone trades up and steals him from us and we’re on the clock at #4 or #5, then we have to draft the best player available. We should never be: “OK, we need a Tackle and a QB…who’s the best one left out there?”
If you can’t trade back, you look at your board and see who ranks highest. Maybe it’s Blackimon, maybe it’s a CB, maybe it’s a LT….but option “C” should be “best player available.”
"You know those balls that they put on car antennas so you can find them in the parking lot? Those should be on every car!" - Homer Simpson
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by Kevin Ewoldt on Dec 14, 2011 3:48 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Yea it's definitely not clear Choice A or B there are million factors.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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So to answer your question, Ken: Quarterback. ha.
"You know those balls that they put on car antennas so you can find them in the parking lot? Those should be on every car!" - Homer Simpson
Follow @HogsHaven
by Kevin Ewoldt on Dec 14, 2011 3:50 PM EST up reply actions
you didn't eat your vegetables as a child, did you?
You’ll vote QB or LT and you’ll like it!
Tough to undersimplify these kinds of polls...
It is only a “which way is the wind blowing today” kind of question, good for a cold Wednesday afternoon…like a bowl of chili.
by Ken Meringolo on Dec 14, 2011 4:42 PM EST up reply actions
Nuance? Are you kidding me? You want a poll with ... nuance?
QB, with the same “unless all the QB’s you think are franchise guys are gone when you pick.”
And actually, I'll say this: the offensive line is already better than we've seen it, after an injury and three bong hits
That’s not much of an endorsement of the current line so much as it is an indictment of the line the last couple of years. Even with Kory Leichtensteiger hurt and the Silverback toked the line has held up better than the train wreck of previous seasons. Three straight 100 yard games for Helu, and the pass blocking has merely been poor as opposed to horrifically bad.
So yeah – QB.
I think that's more the Patriots' defense than anything
I think I heard Willie Smith say that there was stiffer competition on the practice squad
by sofutomygaha on Dec 14, 2011 6:28 PM EST up reply actions
Helu was the first 100 YD rusher allowed all season by the Pats.
Stupid comment
@Callahan_9 on the twitter machine.
I was refering to the line play without trent williams and fred davis
which began this past week, if I’m not mistaken.
New England is allowing 4.3 yards per attempt on the ground, 18th in the league. Teams don’t run against them very much because they are usually playing catch up.
by sofutomygaha on Dec 15, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
I don't think there is any way the skins take anything other than QB in the top 5...
I’ve done lots of mock drafts and there are only about 2-3 tackles being taken in the first round. Kalil might stay which brings it down to 1-2. If we don’t get the QB of choice, I would love to take a tackle, but I’d have to break Ken’s rules by trading back. No way, no how would i take a tackle at 4 if Kalil is off the board. Picking positions instead of players makes you over-value your pick…there for while i would select QB in the poll, you can consider me a hanging chad
Have you seen our tackle situation?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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I agree we should get a tackle and some interior linemen in the draft,
but a franchise QB supercedes the need for a first round tackle
The poll isn't "A: Franchise QB, B: OT"
Trading back grabbing an OL in the 1st and QB in the 2nd isn’t that farfetched of an idea.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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I'd much rather grab the franchise Qb with our first and trade back in the second to aquire more picks
and grab a crap ton of o-line talent.
But you're guaranteeing that the guy is a franchise QB, while you're not guaranteeing the same for the OT
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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Isn't the post doing the opposite? Instead using 'Stud' in the place of 'Franchise'
If all things equal and both players were the same in their level of Stud/Franchiziness at their respective positions, I’d rather have the QB. It’s a position that we need far greater. Plus it is much more common to get quality olinemen in the mid-later rounds than it is to find quality QBs.
And I know you are going to bring up dalton, brady, brees, etc. But those are more or less the exceptions that prove the rule.
I think the poll should say "A:Draft a HOF QB, B: Draft a bust LT"
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 4:11 PM EST up reply actions
You're right, Top 5 QBs are guaranteed to be a success.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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So does every position in regards to the first round. Thanks for that fun fact.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
actually they don't, not when you factor in their draft position and what you pay for them
if you are a top 5 pick (at any position) you should be a star (Joe Thomas, Peyton Manning, Calvin Johnson, Suh etc.) So an Alex Smith being league average in his 7th year is a bust even if he does lead them to the Super Bowl.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:24 PM EST up reply actions
Coincidentally, a bong hit is my prescription for watching our O-line play.
On the other hand, our offensive line is an injury and a bong hit away from being as bad as we have ever seen it.
by SSBlitz on Dec 14, 2011 3:56 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
punter!
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Redskins fans have Hogs on the brain
offensive lineman are overrated because they can just as easily be turds as any other top pick. The best olineman in the league isnt worth 1/2 as much as a legit qb….this team needs to solve the qb qunadary first and foremost. Trash like Rex can have decent games behind our poop oline. a legit qb will immediately make everyone think TW is a pro-bowler. QB or bust!
Mike Vick begs to differ
The best olineman in the league isnt worth 1/2 as much as a legit qb….
Though I agree with your overall point that a QB is far more important this year than a stud tackle.
Mike Vick is a better player than any left tackle.
Why dont olineman get paid $100mill? Because they arent worth it (not saying that Vick is). Yes, an oline is incredibly important but decent olines are made up of guys like Chad Rhinehart and Stephen Heyer who we cut. I would trade 10 good olineman for a stud qb because it should take no more than 2yrs to revamp your oline if you focus there. Meanwhile it can take 20 years to get a good qb (see Washington Redskins)
Left tackle is the second highest paying position in all of football...
I agree with your overall premise however.
umm the Redskins have been 'revamping' their line for two years (actually longer) and they seem no closer to having just an average unit
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:28 PM EST up reply actions
I like to think of it as meatball surgery
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
True and Not True
Lineman are valued less than QBs not because the line is less important but because there are 5 linemen and 1 QB. So obviously they are valued less but its not because a great QB is worth more than a great O Line. I also don’t understand how a legit QB makes Trent look any better. Lineman aren’t judged negatively because their QB holds the ball for 10 mins before throwing it. If that was the case Chris Samuels would never had made a pro bowl in his life. A legit QB isn’t going to help Trent when Ware runs right around him. The two are so dependent on in each other that its a chick and egg type situation.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 4:10 PM EST up reply actions
A GOOD quarterback
DEFINITELY makes a line better. They identify the blitz faster, can handle the pressure better to avoid sacks, and know how to make you pay for blitzing them. That’s why the good QB’s make the most money. They are much more important than any other position on the field.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
You are missing the point
A player isn’t better because the QB makes quicker reads. A QB covers up a deficient line but he doesn’t make them any better. The opposite is true of a line. A great line gives the QB and allows him more time to be successful. The Hogs made Williams, Theismann and Rypien better than they were. Rodger or Brady don’t make their lines any better they just make the inadequacies less noticeable. Again everyone knows a QB is worth more than one offensive lineman but that is because there are 5 of them. Of course 1 QB is worth more than 1 O lineman but a line is a unit so just 1 stud with 4 bums is worthless. Add the salaries of all 5 starting lineman and compare that to the QB salary. You will find that the O line collectively makes more than the QB except in a few rare situations.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions
You're parsing words
Yes, I meant to say a good quarterback makes his line LOOK better. That is a fact.
Just as much as the opposite CAN be true.
Williams, Theismann, and Rypien benefitted as much from playing with the Hogs as the Colts O line benefits from playing with Peyton Manning.
I loved the Hogs, but they were a unique group. And in this day and age, that concept is outdated. The days of average to below average QB’s winning the Superbowl are long gone. Sure, an exception may pop up here and there. But it’s just that, an EXCEPTION.
But your middle statement made my point
Of course 1 QB is worth more than 1 O lineman
Actually, it WAS my point. Do I want us to have a dominant O line? Of course? The problem is, you can’t draft an entire O line with ONE pick. You can, however, draft a good quarterback with one pick. Then draft the rest of the line after that.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
they might make a line look better, but they don't actually make them better
a great line can also prop up a poor to average QB (ex. the Pats winning 11 games with Matt Cassel at the helm)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:29 PM EST up reply actions
so okay you have the choice between Jay Cutler and Joe Thomas to build this team around you choose Cutler??
Offensive linemen have a higher success rate than QB’s in the top 15, that is a fact, and it is quite clear that you are the one overrating a position (QB).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions
I don't like Cutler
So no. But I would choose a good QB over a great LT every day of the week. Just my preference though. Each hold their own value. And my opinion has changed on that too, as the league itself has changed. But a QB can win you more games than a left tackle, period.
Of course, we had a stud left tackle here for 9 years. Got us nowhere. Just saying.
And how can you overvalue the most important position on the field?
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2011 11:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
well we did make a pair of playoff runs with Mark Brunell and Todd Collins as our QB's
as for overvaluing QB’s, look at the voting…no way it should be that far apart.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 12:14 AM EST up reply actions
Yes, we did
And that just belabors my point. Tell me the truth, either of those years did you think we were in any danger of making it to the Superbowl? I didn’t. I’m tired of being one of these also-ran teams that is hoping every year for a 9-7, 10-6 season. I want to get to the top of the league. A good QB has a better chance of getting us there than an offensive tackle.
When’s the last time we actually had a GOOD offense? ’99. Who was our QB? Brad Johnson, Pro Bowler. Who was our LT? Andy Heck.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
umm Andy Heck was a former 1st round pick and had a number of good years in the NFL
he might not have been great or elite, but we weren’t exactly putting trash out there.
There is no such thing as a rookie or young QB succeeding without at least a good o-line. So if you are prepared to draft Barkley and Griffin and sit them for a year or maybe more, okay i’m listening, but we aren’t going to get that PB quarterback by just taking the top name on our list and throwing him out there.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Heck was
Just another guy when we had him. Trash? No. But he was no better than average here.
I realize that a rookie QB doesn’t win us many games next year. But at least it means we’re working towards something. The alternative? We continue down the same path we’ve been on for years – trotting out journeyman quarterbacks that nobody else wants, and finishing at the bottom of our division year in and year out.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
most years we haven't been trotting out journey men QB's
Brad Johnson, Jeff George, Donovan McNabb and of course Brunell were all signed/traded for in big deals.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
And other than
Brad Johnson, they were all sub par QB’s here. Well, save for a five or six game stretch with Brunell. So yeah, maybe they were signed to bigger deals, but they were no better than the 20 something other bums that have been through here.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
Hopefully we’re not drafting Top 10 ever again….so make it a QB with our last time here.
"You know those balls that they put on car antennas so you can find them in the parking lot? Those should be on every car!" - Homer Simpson
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That's my point
I keep hearing people say “we’re not gonna win next year with a rookie QB.” I can only conclude that they somehow think we ARE gonna win with Grossman behind center. As goofy as that sounds, I will entertain the argument. Lets say an improved team around Rex leads to more wins. There is still no way we get more than 9, and that his a HUGE stretch. We would most likely finish between 6-10 and 9-7. Which means picking 12-18. Great. Been there, done that. No shot at the top tier QB’s.
This is the first time, probably since Shuler, that we will actually be in the position to take one of the top QB’s in the draft. Obviously 2000 doesn’t count because that year we planned on grabbing our franchise QB in the sixth round. Just so happens he went 6 spots before us, so we went plan B with Todd Husak.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
pretty sure that is not what people are saying when they say a rookie can't win
and why is picking 8-22 *(that would be a more accurate range of 6-10 to 9-7) precluding us from taking a top QB?
We’ve passed on Rodgers and Roethlisberger so you can’t say that we haven’t had the chance to take a Franchise guy since Schuler. We passed on Favre in 91, Brees in 2001, and plenty others you could point to over the years.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:39 PM EST up reply actions
because the top
QB’s are projected to go well before then.
You got me on Rodgers, well done. Took a different Rogers. That turned out great. But Rodgers had plummeted down people’s boards. I think Gibbs woulda picked him had he dropped one more slot. Of course, now I’d trade Campbell AND Rogers for Aaron Rodgers. Hindsight, huh?
Roethlisburger I don’t count, because we still had hopes for Ramsey. Favre and Brees? You know as well as I do neither of those guys were projected to be franchise type guys. That’s a slippery slope to go down. Hell, we past on Kurt Warner for Heath Shuler AND Gus Frerotte.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2011 11:58 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Gibbs didn't have hopes for Ramsey that is why he traded a 3rd rounder for Brunell
Brett Favre was the 3rd QB taken that year, and Brees was the 2nd. Now I know a number of teams liked Favre (Ron Wolf talked about it in a biography, and he’d convinced the Jets to take him in the 2nd, as he was the Assistant GM, but the Falcons took him one pick ahead of them), but I don’t know all the ins and outs. But Brees was highly thought of. There was a lot of speculation that a team late in the first round might take him, or some team trade up for him. He might not have been considered the star that he became, but plenty of people saw a lot of upside and starting potential in him.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
I know that
They saw “potential” in Brees and Favre. But, like I said,they weren’t thought of as franchise QB’s. Otherwise every team in the league wouldn’t have passed on them.
Look, I would love to get our QB of the future later in the draft. I know it’s POSSIBLE. But it’s less likely. These aren’t my facts, they’re NFL facts. Smart, successful people put their jobs on the lines when they draft first round QB’s. No doubt it’s a gamble. But they do it because they know a good quarterback can. They know the reward is worth the risk. Conversely, if they knew, absolutely KNEW they could get their franchise guy later in the draft, and no take that risk, don’t you think they would?
Believe me, I used to be in the camp that a QB is not worth the risk. But 20 years of watching my team flounder while every other team in our division has been better, changed my mind. And what was the biggest difference every time the Giants, Eagles, and Cowboys were (are) better than us? Better QB play.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
But this is what I'm asking
are Barkley and Griffin surefire Franchise QB’s? B/c history/success rate tell us not likely
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 12:56 PM EST up reply actions
They're as sure fire
As any other highly drafted QB. Meaning no. But, like I said, NO player is sure fire, at ANY position. And also like I’ve said, I know it’s a gamble. But sometimes you have to take that gamble if you really wanna get better. You can’t be scared. Not taking a guy because you’re scared your projections are wrong means you have no confidence in yourself. If that’s the case, you need to hang it up as a NFLer.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
i think there is a difference to being scared or being smart
last i checked most people on here want a QB who can play for Rex Day one (or soon there after). If that is the case the ‘scared’ choice is Barkley, b/c he has the hype. The smart choice is Weeden, b/c he is the most NFL ready after Luck.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I can't speak for most
But I personally want him to start as soon as the coaching staff deems him ready. And, like I said, I don’t care about next year. I care about the future. I’m not looking for the guy who will do better next year, I’m looking for the guy who will be better for the next TEN years.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
okay but that could still be Weeden
b/c a guy like Barkley might need to sit a year, then a year or two to get his feet wet (a lot depending on the talent around him) before he is really ready to take his game to the top 15 in the league level. Weeden might not have 10 years, but he could be ready by year 2 to be ‘that quarterback’, maybe it is only a 6-8 year window, but that should be a factor.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I don't see it
Personally, I like Griffin better than any of the other QB’s. But in the end, I’ll trust Shanny. But, for now, I trust the overwhelming majority that says that guys like Weeden, Tannehill, Foles, etc are lower tier quarterbacks. At least compared to Luck, Barkley, Griffin, and maybe Jones.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
that's the thing though
if you trust the overwhelming majority you’d think Gabbert is better than Dalton, Sanchez is better than Freeman, Vick better than Brees, Rivers over Roethlisberger (it might be debatable but the numbers don’t support it), Alex Smith over Rodgers. And a host of other bad decisions.
Weeden is only out of the Barkley and Griffin debate due to age. Tannehill should def. be 4th (he’s well ahead of Jones), and he’s only knocked down b/c he didn’t get to play QB his first 3 and half years at A&M. I’d hardly call it a runaway landslide victory.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
You keep
Harping on busts. Busts happen. At EVERY position. Like I keep saying, you can’t draft scared.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
yes but you can't draft with blinders over your eyes either and thinking every 1st round pick equals Peyton Manning
and I’m not harping on busts, merely saying just b/c Barkley is considered the 2nd best QB right now means absolutely nothing.
I don’t believe in drafting scared either, I believe you need to draft smart, and draft to what is best for your overall team game plan, not the quick fix of a position based on hype.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Who said
Anything about the next Peyton Manning? How many times have I said that I’d be happy with “just” a GOOD quarterback. Nobody thinks any of these guys are gonna be the next Manning. Maybe Luck, but he’s not even in this conversation.
Look, I understand you think we should “improve the rest of our team” first. And that sounds good, on the surface. But it’s an outdated theory. We don’t have time for a 4-5 year plan. Two years from now, Shanny will be gone if he doesn’t have a direction. And, I hate to tell you this, but teams with “direction” don’t start journeyman quarterbacks every year.
Is the QB route a “quick fix”? No. But it is the ONE position that can improve your team the most.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
that hasn't been the case...
good QB’s don’t improve BAD teams, it is a combination of a number of factors.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I'll bet
The Colts win more games next year.
Of course it’s a combination of things.
But you keep missing my point. I’m saying the ONE position that can improve a team more than any other is quarterback.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
again only under set circumstances
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I could not disagree more...
b/c he is the most NFL ready after Luck
Maybe you are a gambler, hoping this type of prediction comes true and you are able to tell everyone, “Remember what I said on December 15th”.
umm how is it not true?
you think Barkley or Griffin are more NFL ready? Based on what?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Look i'll admit my thoughts could change between now and the draft based on how he does at the Senior Bowl and Combine
But right now I do firmly believe that Weeden is the second most NFL prepared QB. The way he’s a leader and handles pressure is pretty impressive.
Being older he’s not going to be overwhelmed the same way a 21 or 22 year old. The fact that he’s been a professional athlete already shows he understands the work that needs to be put into the job (and he’s shown that in college).
Also I like the fact that I’ve rarely seen him force throws (or rarer than the other rookies), I think he understands better than most just how tight those NFL windows are going to be. I see him make less ‘bad decisions’ (not necessarily INT"s, but throwing in coverage etc.).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
who am I to argue your feelings...
and you definitely feel something magical about him. I, of all people, know he might end up being GREAT. But I could live with the fact that I didn’t draft him in the 5th round. I would have a much harder time missing out on a 1st round talent. If it was my job, I probably would be held responsible for those types of perceived errors.
Weeden is a 2nd or 3rd rounder and his talent is above Barkley's
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I know the CBS guys have him in the top 75, and others have put him in the same range
And they all say if not for his age he’d be a top 50 guy.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by the way...
is this the first time you have been promoting Weeden? I cannot remember you bring his name up this strongly before.
I've brought him up, but probably not this strongly
i do firmly believe he is the most day one ready starter behind Luck. Obviously his age limits his upside (though as I’ve said you could hopefully get 6-8 years). But I do think his age is a benefit as well, because i think in addition to his ‘developmental’ period being short, I think his growing pains period will be truncated as well (i.e. by year two I think he could be a top 15 QB). Because of that I also think his chances of being an ‘outright bust’ are fairly minimal.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Sounds like
The ore draft bio on Chris Weinke.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
they aren't even close in terms of prospects
Weinke was a leader as well, but his accuracy was just average, and he had zero foot speed. His pocket awareness was poor and his mechanics were pretty average.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I will tell you what I base my opinion on...
Barkley is a three year STARTER, for a top program, who runs a pro-style offense. Griffin takes a inferior program up against bigger / better programs, and defeat them on his own. Each guy progressively got better with each passing year.
Weeden came in to late. That was his choice (or perhaps it wasn’t). My thoughts on him are – JUSTIN BLACKMON.
How is Oklahoma State not an 'inferior program'
sure they were good the two years prior to Weeden taking over, but since Weeden’s been the starter he’s 22-3 (obviously one game to go) the two years prior to that OK State (with Dez Bryant mind you, and Blackmon for one year) was 18-8.
And if Justin Blackmon is reason not to take Weeden why is Robert Woods, who is an even better receiver not a mark against Barkley. Barkley also has far better secondary receivers.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
agree on Woods...
as we have discussed, great QB need great players around them. Your point is well taken.
I just don’t see it.
Gawd, if only that were true
The only time we have paid in the first five players successively is when we had used that choice on the line… honestly this is how I remember the last 20 drafts
(
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Dec 14, 2011 5:46 PM EST up reply actions
QB!
QB at 1 because Skins will have a shot at one of the 3 franchise guys this year. And OLine with next 2 picks to get (expected) above average guys to contribute immediately.
Im not sure this a good year to spend a first rounder on a tackle
Assuming kalil does go back to USC
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 4:22 PM EST reply actions
But drafting an OLineman automatically means we’re 1 step closer to The Hogs II!!!!
"You know those balls that they put on car antennas so you can find them in the parking lot? Those should be on every car!" - Homer Simpson
Follow @HogsHaven
by Kevin Ewoldt on Dec 14, 2011 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Weren't most of the hogs non-first round picks?
What’s stopping us from drafting them in the later rounds?
Do not try his
Unless your name is Joe bugle
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Dec 14, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
may was a first and Grimm was a 3rd
Jacoby, Bostic were FA and I believe Starke was a later round pick
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Jim Lachey was also a first rounder, though not by the Skins, what a great trade that was!
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:47 PM EST up reply actions
and for a QB!
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
haha yep the good old days were we had depth and actually developed players
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:50 PM EST up reply actions
Weren't two of the greatest QBs of all time non-first round picks?
What’s stopping us from drafting the next Montana or Brady in the later rounds?
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:54 PM EST up reply actions
You named 2 players, I get your sentiment
but its like advising people to buy lotto tickets payoff is unbelievable but it probly wont happen
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 5:57 PM EST up reply actions
so is expecting a 1st round QB to work out
and you can point to a lot more non-first rounders (Favre, Warner, Brees, Warren Moon etc.) who were pretty great.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:44 PM EST up reply actions
That isn't true the success rate of first round qb is much higher look around the NFL the majority of starting qbs were first round picks
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:01 PM EST up reply actions
actually I think its less tahn 50%
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
its 56%
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
and that is just starting QB's correct? not a real measure of success, like being good.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:16 PM EST up reply actions
so Rex Grossman, Mark Sanchez, Blaine gabbert, Christian Ponder, Alex Smith etc.
are all successes b/c they are starting?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:03 PM EST up reply actions
I'm confused what the argument here is about? Not only current starters but most of the greats of the past were first round picks
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:20 PM EST up reply actions
it depends on what you define as great
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:21 PM EST up reply actions
Qbs taken in later rounds that were good are much more the exception than the rule is all I'm saying
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
i'm not saying everyone is great
but a Brad Johnson, Tony Romo, Kurt Warner, Mark Brunell does come along every couple of years, which isn’t that far off from the success rate of the 1st round guys.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:26 PM EST up reply actions
True but guys like elway and manning and luck can't escape the first round
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
yes but those aren't the guys we are talking about
Outside of Trent Dilfer, the last top 10 QB’s to win a SB are, Peyton Manning, Eli Manning, John Elway and Troy Aikman, all top overall picks. (the last non-top overall pick, but top 10 pick is Simms) (Steve Young was the top overall pick but he was in the Supplamental draft). We aren’t getting Luck, so this idea that suddenly our top 10 non top pick is going to be guy to break the trend is about as likely as us finding the next Brady in round 6.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:33 PM EST up reply actions
huh? how so
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 12:24 AM EST up reply actions
Brady is a freak accident, plenty of good qbs go in the first round outside of the top pick
If the odds were how you are portraying them there would be a lot more bradys
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 12:29 AM EST up reply actions
you mentioned the greats (elway, Manning etc.)
and as I stated outside the top QB taken, you don’t really find a lot of success stories in the top 10 picks of the draft.
People are on hear saying that us taking a Griffin or Barkley leads to success, but history shows that isn’t the case.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
semantic QB argument?
where’s that damn horse beating gif when you need it?
"Women should have three breasts - two in front and one in the back for dancing." -Al Bundy
by HankMonahan on Dec 14, 2011 11:44 PM EST up reply actions
I'm the biggest OL proponent on here but I vote QB
with ONE caveat:
There has to be a guy Shanahan likes. If not, then don’t force the pick.
BUT
Most good QBs come from the first round, especially the top of the first. To contend you need a great QB. Outside of a Drew Brees every 40 years, there’s only one way to get that QB.
"By far the worst performers on the (R*dskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
There has to be a guy Shanahan likes. If not, then don’t force the pick.
Since Shanny makes every draft pick, no worries there.
"You know those balls that they put on car antennas so you can find them in the parking lot? Those should be on every car!" - Homer Simpson
Follow @HogsHaven
by Kevin Ewoldt on Dec 14, 2011 4:30 PM EST up reply actions
three words...
Quarterback, Quarterback, Quarterback.
I do believe we will be drafting in the top 5, but
teams can and probably will trade past us to get one of the top three quarterbacks
We cannot allow this to happen. This is one of the best classes of QBs, one that comes along once every 10 / 15 yrs. 325 lbs. – 6’4" OL are aplenty. You just need to find which one fits your system and have a good OL coach develop them.
but that was just one word repeated three times
hahaha…I agree with exercising some aggressive behavior on draft day to prevent other teams from leapfrogging us to get one of these stud qb’s
by Ken Meringolo on Dec 14, 2011 4:46 PM EST up reply actions
I think we need a third option to the poll: Trade away our next 3(:)16 first round picks for this guy
-708277.JPG)
Those tears are ’Jesus Approved," my friends.
John Elway....
must have just spoken to him harshly, expressing disinterest in him running the team long-term. At the end of the year, you could bargain shop for this guy, but no one will be interested, meaning more tears.
Why does John Elway hate God's plan?
Irony (n.) -Michael Westbrook as the hero on Bully Beatdown.
John Elway doesnt hate the plan or tebow
When Tebow wins a superbowl he will acknowledge him and say “that’ll do pig, that’ll do”
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
John 3:16 or other scripture references are no longer allowed on eye shadow, etc. by the NCAA.
by Jefferson1935 on Dec 14, 2011 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
Excuse me. Your wrong
Its thou shall not trade draft picks for marginal veterans
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Quarterback
While Trent’s availability each week, or even the whole season, is not a given he’s still on the roster already. What is a given every week, all season long is that we don’t have a serious quarterback on the roster. I don’t like making decisions based on what might happen if there is already a more pressing need in the here and now.
Do we need another tackle? Yes. But we need a franchise quarterback more.
by BurgundyEpidermis on Dec 14, 2011 4:48 PM EST reply actions
not sure why this is such an issue
There are several good tackles projected to go in the 2nd round.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
there are several good QB's to go in round 2 as well
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:49 PM EST up reply actions
I think Landry should stay in school
better to compete with Aaron Murray and Brey instead of the 3 headed monster plus he need more time to develop
It really got out of hand fast.
That sure escalated quickly, eh?
Parks killed a guy.
Irony (n.) -Michael Westbrook as the hero on Bully Beatdown.
used a trident
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I’ve been meaning to talk to you about that…
by sofutomygaha on Dec 14, 2011 6:32 PM EST up reply actions
1.) QB is the most important single position in the NFL. People can gnash their teeth and fight against it all they want but its just true these days. You can’t win consistently in the NFL without one. Sure you can have a lucky fluke season like the Chiefs last year but it will eventually crumble. One position on the OL will never be more important
2.) Best chance for getting a franchise QB is in the first round.
Tell that to the Broncos....
You can’t win consistently in the NFL without one
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
by Parks Smith on Dec 14, 2011 5:07 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
it was a joke
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Bad QBs have won SuperBowls. A bad offensive line has not
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:09 PM EST up reply actions
Dilfer, Hostetler, Williams, Rypien, Namath
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
Which one of these guys was a franchise QB?
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Which one was in the modern era without one of the best defenses of all time? You can take your Delorean back to to the future now. Game changed.
by HogtieJim on Dec 14, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
if it did then why are more QB's not successful?
I mean we draft QB’s higher than we used to, and the game apparently changed where QB’s are more valuable, yet their success rate doesn’t seem to be higher?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:51 PM EST up reply actions
i'm growing tired of this "success rate" bs....
as we have established previously, the draft is all about projections and guesses. So, yes, I would expect the success rate to maintain a consistency. The point that you are disregarding is the risk / reward aspect. The odds that the early picks have to be great over a late round selection are much better. And when a team is guessing, you would like to have the odds in your favor. You then pray that they are not busts.
Could RG3 / Barkley be busts? Yes, the success rate says. But their chances of being great are much better than som unnamed QB in the sixth round.
who here is arguing that they go with a 6th rounder?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
huh??
why you are looking for franchise QB’s and the real issue is we don’t know where we find them (top pick, 23rd overall, 2nd round, 3rd round, 6th round, UDFA). They only come along every couple of years, so why are you expecting we magically find one this year after Luck?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Okay Brad Johnson
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
made pro-bowl with the skins
it’s a qb league now, nothing is more important than having a dynamic, play maker under center
Let me know when i am allowed to start counting.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:24 PM EST up reply actions
it really has
look at Cam and Tebow…imagine if Tebow could throw…time to throw out all the traditional ideas that a qb has to stand like a statue in the pocket behind the perfect oline…more than one way to skin a cat, it’s a big play league now and qb is the guy with the most opportunities to make plays.
Tebow?
You are using Cam and Tebow to help prove the argument? Cam has won as many games as Rex and Tebow has relied on the power of Jesus to win regular season games. Are we going to bank on Barber running our of bounds and fumbling the ball to win games?
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:39 PM EST up reply actions
yep it is a full proof strategy
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:52 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not sure any team can defeat divine intervention
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:14 PM EST up reply actions
haha
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions
Again when can i start counting. I am seriously asking when i am allowed to start.
In the last 5 years? Is that allowed? How about 10 years? Brad Johnson was only 9 years ago so i will assume that 9 years is too long. Fair enough lets go with 8 years. I will completely agree with you that if you have someone named Brady, Manning, Brees or Rodgers you can win SuperBowls. Also if you have an all time great Steelers defense you can win with a Roethlisberger. Nobody questions that having an elite QB helps you win SuperBowls. The question is do you build a good offensive line or draft a QB. If you can guarantee me that the QB you are drafting is going to be elite then of course everyone will say get the QB. But this is where the problem lies, you nor anyone else can guarantee that any QB not named Luck(and even him) will be half as good as any of the winning QBs in the last 8 years.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:37 PM EST up reply actions
I think Luck is the real deal and would agree that the surrounding pieces are important
but everyone wants the qb if all championships were won by the best qb Manning would have 14 rings
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions
At the same time
You can’t guarantee that drafting an O lineman will pan out. We are already talking about replacing Trent Williams.
And who’s talking about “elite”? Sure, that would be nice, but a GOOD quarterback is worth drafting high. Eli Manning, Ben Roethlisburger – not “elite” quarterbacks. Hell, Tom Brady wasn’t elite when he was winning Superbowls. What they are is good to very good, and capable of carrying their teams when necessary. Maybe not ALL THE TIME, but when necessary.
I don’t need the guy we draft to be elite. I’ll be happy with good. We haven’t had a GOOD quarterback around here since ‘99. And we haven’t drafted a QB high in almost two decades. Conversely, we’ve drafted three linemen that high. Hasn’t gotten us anywhere.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
We have drafted the same number of 1st QBs as OLinemen in the last 20 years.
Not sure what you are talking about.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
1st round
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 8:10 PM EST up reply actions
I said
HIGH first round. And I meant two. Three first rounder overall, but two high.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
no one is saying you can guarantee an O-lineman will pan out, but the success rate is higher
and unless you are a Manning top 10 QB’s haven’t led to post season victory parades
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:19 PM EST up reply actions
To play devils advocate the Jets have made it to two consecutive AFC championships with a terrible QB
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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he probably has a top3 qb rating in the 4thQ
i dont like sanchez, or san-CHEZ as half the announcers call him, but i dont think calling him terrible is the conventional wisdom
he sucks, had a #1 defense and #1 ground game and messed it up
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 5:36 PM EST up reply actions
exactly
All of the must have a franchise QB folks love to ignore the fact that Rodger and Roethlisberger had the top ranked defense the year they won. Brees had a defense that produced the most turnovers of any team that year. Even the great Tom Brady in the 2 of his 3 SB years had the #1 and #2 ranked defenses in terms of points allowed. Eli won a SB due to an unbelievable defensive line and the most miraculous catch in NFL history. Pretending that a franchise QB was the only reason is a little silly.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:48 PM EST up reply actions
no one has said a qb is the only reason a team won the SB
Defense is irrelevant to the greatness of players like Brees, Brady, Ben, Rodgers…qb is the only position in the NFL that is akin to nba franchise player
Ben is not in that conversation
He is a product of a great system. Put him on a bad team and he will be exposed. He is good but not elite. He had the worst game of any SuperBowl winning QB in history.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
he's as clutch as any player in the league.
can put up 350yd/4td games as easily as grind out an 11/17 189 day with two long 4th down completions and a rush TD. He’s been in the league 8yrs, at some point they’re winning because of him as much as anything else.
He is pretty clutch i can admit that. However, they win because of defense more than QB play. Lets not forget Ben won his first SuperBowl with the worst game from a winning QB in the history of the NFL. If he is playing with any other defense they don’t win that game.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 10:04 PM EST up reply actions
and he clearly should get no credit
for that game winning drive against Arizona…becuse that Steeler D was so good in that game
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
They won on a 14 point swing play at the first half
Ben didn’t go out and dismantle the other team like Rodgers did this past superbowl. You seem to have not watched that game
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:08 PM EST up reply actions
no they won
on a game winning drive by Ben after Warner shredded the Defense in the 4th Q
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Yeah the defense who scored 25% of the Steelers points and produced two turnovers was terrible. It must suck to have a defense that scores points.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess then the same could be said
for P. Manning SB victory then
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Seriously? Stop it
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
huh?? if Brees, Brady, Ben and Rodgers didn't have those defenses they don't win those SB's
I don’t think they’d be considered as great (should they be, yes, but they def. wouldn’t be). Most consider Elway a better QB than Marino, but I don’t think that is reality (both extremely good, but I’d take Marino)
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by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
+1
Marino was better
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
More importantly Marino is an all time great without superbowls or a great defense
Qbs should be judged on their play not superbowl victories
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:04 PM EST up reply actions
he never had an RB either
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Elway and Marino were almost the 2 greatest qbs to never win a SB and Jim Kelly doesn't even get mentioned
I would take Kelly over a ton of qbs
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:06 PM EST up reply actions
+1 he was another good one
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
your're right he's not terrible...he's god awful
Sanchize has more pieces around him than most QB’s in the league yet he’s been horrible.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:54 PM EST up reply actions
This is what I love
People say it is a changed league and all of that, though they don’t really have a set date on when this massive change occurred. But they say “you need a Franchise QB to win a SB”, ignoring the fact that you need to be elite at a few other positions as well, If you are using the evidence that you need a Franchise QB to win the big game is why the Redskins should draft a QB in the top 10, I don’t think you are looking close enough.
I love how people say that we need to draft a ‘franchise QB’ in the top 10, when unless your name is Manning a top 10 QB hasn’t won the SB, since John Elway. And in the last 10 years only one other top 10 QB (McNabb) has even made it to the SB. Yet for some reason it is preposterous to think that the Redskins ‘franchise’ QB can’t come later.
If someone could clear up this logic for me (or show me the family tree of how Barkley or Griffin is really a Manning) I’d appreciate it.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:15 PM EST up reply actions
faulty logic my friend
the fact only one top10 qb has won a SB in X amount of time has absolutely no bearing on the players currently available in the draft. If it made any difference when various qb’s were taken, then we should pass on Andrew Luck so we can get a qb after 10th and “increase” our chances he wins a SB in the next 10 years.
Each player is an individual talent and completely separate from any draft histories before him. If you rate a guy as an elite qb talent, you take him without any regard to previous scenarios
that is the point, thus far the 'elite guys' are the ones with the success rate
that ain’t Barkley and not likely Griffin.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
what holes do you see in Griffin's game that exclude him from potentially elite?
imo he’s as pure a passer as you will see in terms of being able to make every single throw at elite NFL levels…velocity, accuracy, deep touch, you name it. (not reading defenses etc, dont know about that).
Look after Luck I think Griffin has the 2nd best chance of being elite
but i say it is not likely b/c that chance is roughly the same or less of what people said about Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb, Vince Young, Sam Bradford etc.
Look I will be thrilled if Griffin was a McNabb or Matt Ryan or some other good to really good QB. But for me to label him elite is tough. And my point was while there are even busts among top overall picks, the Manning Boys (Aikman and Elway as well) at least had some success. Usually elite QB’s come from guys we don’t think we be that, which is why I wanted to point out that they typically aren’t drafted high (probably has something to do with the time they are allowed to mature and the talent around them).
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by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
That’s just not true. Plenty of Super Bowl winners have won without elite OLs. The Elites QBs often make their OLs look better than they are.
I said bad offensive line never said elite
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:15 PM EST up reply actions
Yeah it helps when you have an all time great defense who allows less that 14 points a game
No argument from me there. Defense is important.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:25 PM EST up reply actions
that offensive line was still far better than our current line
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:24 PM EST up reply actions
qb
With the 4th pick in the 2012 draft the washington redskins select… Matt barkley
My dream and possibility is
Barkley
Ol
Ol
CB
Wr. For the first 4 rounds. Don’t we have 2 fourths?
by no more kwame's in dc on Dec 14, 2011 5:18 PM EST via mobile reply actions
yeah two 4ths'
ours and Oaklands
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by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
Look at it another way. Not taking a QB in the first round means its less likely to get a Franchise QB meaning its more likely the Shanny era fails and its very possible Vinny Cerrato could return if that happens.
That’s right, no QB in the first round increases the chances of Vinny returning.
Game. Set. Match.
Holy speculation
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Look at it another way. Not taking a QB in the first round means we accidentally take the next Tom Brady in the 7th round of the draft. This means that likely the Shanny ear is a success and its very possible we go on to win the next 10 Super Bowls.
That’s right, no QB in the first round increases the chance of winning 10 straight Super Bowls.
Game. Set. Match
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 5:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
haha
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 14, 2011 8:11 PM EST up reply actions
did I miss when all these high drafted QB's turned into franchise QB's??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:27 PM EST up reply actions
This isn't even worth talking about
Potentially good offensive lineman dont win you superbowls. Quarterbacks do. Who drafts two offensive linemen in the first 5 two out of three years? Nobody. We need a QB. Its that simple.
why are we talking about SB's did I miss where we were a SB team if we had a QB?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:59 PM EST up reply actions
not really, a QB's potential won't be realized if we don't have an offensive line
that is a big part of the reason there are so many QB busts.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
draft a QB
i can only think of 1 year where QB’s went 1,2,3.. that was Couch, McNabb, Akili Smith.. and 2 of the 3 were disasters
What I think will happen is that Luck will be taken first, but the other 2 will drift down a little as teams find holes in their games. That is how Aaron Rodgers fell into the 20’s.. Not saying they should, only that teams will choose a “safer” pick like Khalil or Blackmon, or Whoever..
At least 1 of the 3 will last past 5 or 6, would be my guess. The real risk is that some team will trade up. But even that is not a sure thing. It costs so much to move up and then you end up with a guy like Gabbert for your effort. Better to let the draft come to you.
Absolute worst case is that we either trade up to get “the” guy Shanahan cant live without (he did trade up for Cutler) or we let the draft come to us and move around a little and take a guy with a lot of potential like Tannehill or Foles late in the first, or early second.
Dalton looks like the real deal and he went where ??? Guys like Big Ben and Rodgers were top 5 picks
In the end, I dont care where Shanahan gets his QB of the future, only that he DOES get him.. So what if we trade a bunch of picks to move up ? If we are going to mortgage the future, the one time I think it is ok to do it, is for a guy who will ACTUALLY give us a future.. and that is the starting QB
Are you frickin kidding me?
Sorry Ben is an elite QB- and if your expections are that we will end up with a guy better than him your living in fantasy land
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
by Redskin44 on Dec 14, 2011 10:56 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
agree completely
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 10:57 PM EST up reply actions
We will end up with a better qb than rapistburger
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
Drew Brees is signing here?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:05 PM EST up reply actions
He could have, are you merril hoge who rates Ben 1b to Rodgers 1a in the NFL?
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:12 PM EST up reply actions
I think Ben is 4th best after Rodgers, Brees and Brady (if Manning were healthy I'd put him ahead of Rodgers for the short term, behind him longterm)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 14, 2011 11:29 PM EST up reply actions
I think your being generous
Rank Season QB Team Action Plays QBR
1 2010 Tom Brady NE 607 76.0
2 2010 Peyton Manning IND 779 69.5
3 2010 Matt Ryan ATL 709 68.6
4 2010 Aaron Rodgers GB 627 67.9
5 2010 Michael Vick PHI 547 66.6
6 2010 Drew Brees NO 760 65.9
7 2010 Eli Manning NYG 654 64.3
8 2010 Josh Freeman TB 626 63.5
9 2010 Philip Rivers SD 667 63.2
10 2010 Ben Roethlisberger PIT 500 59.8
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:45 PM EST up reply actions
you are basing that on one metric, off one season
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 12:25 AM EST up reply actions
I used the best metric on the table, its not like he lights up the charts in terms of yardage or touchdowns or sacks allowed or turnovers
other than victories which statistically arent that attributable to him and superbowl victories he sucks
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 12:32 AM EST up reply actions
Roethlisberger's career numbers:
63.2 completion percentage, 8.1 yards per attempt, a 5.1% touchdown percentage and a career rating of 92.9. Among active players (including Peyton),
Among active players Roethlisberger ranks 7th in rating (just 0.3 behind Brees), 2nd in Yards per Attempt (just 0.1 behind Rodgers), 8th in completion , and 6th in TD.
On top of that is the intangible factor, which has him 5th among active QB’s in Game Winning Drives and 4th in 4th quarter comebacks. While obviously someone like Rodgers is going to be hurt in this category b/c he sat so long, it also includes guys like McNabb, Brunell etc. who started for far longer than Big Ben.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
His intangible factors are an easy schedule and top defense that forces tons of turnovers
If you think he is more vital to the team than the defense you are crazy.
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 7:16 AM EST up reply actions
an easy schedule? Usually the Ravens are extremely competitive with the Steelers for the division. The AFC has long been a tougher conference so their schedule is tougher than an NFC teams, and usually they have a 1st place schedule
I don’t think I am arguing that he is more vital than his defense. In fact I’m pretty sure i’m the one on here saying the Redskins should be cautious about overvaluing a QB.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
all I can say is people
Need to stop reading box scores and start watching football games. Ben is the 4th best QB in the league- case closed.
Ben has no OL this year sack 35 times, he has no running attack this year, and the defense has not created ANY turnovers this year.
But of course I’m sure people will say that oh look he is throwing to…Brown and Wallace. A 3rd and 6th pick who by some miracle became studs and Ben should get no credit there
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Ben is the 4th best QB in the league- case closed.
Well you’ve settled that argument then.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
I hope so
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Pizza is the 4th best vegetable in the league- case closed.
People need to stop reading the box scores and start watching calories. It’s very evident that I am the only person who can evaluate based on observational data and no other proof to my statement.
by Xin Baixiang on Dec 15, 2011 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
I won’t say Roethlisberger sucks. He is a very clutch player but no way would I personally put him at #4 or #5. I got him somewhere in the 7-12 range. The elite are pretty clear, Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers. After that it is arguable for sure but i like Rivers, E. Manning , Stafford and might even slide Cutler and possibly even Romo(it pains me to say that) in ahead of Rotethlisberger.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 12:58 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know how you could put Stafford or Cutler ahead of Ben
I get the arguments for Eli and Rivers, but no way on the other guys.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
They are more talented as passers? Stafford is an easy pick to put ahead of him
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 7:13 AM EST up reply actions
how are they more talented passers? In fact how is it even close?
Ignoring Matt Stafford’s first two AWFUL seasons, he has a 63.4% completion rate, 5.6 TD%, 2.7 INT , 7.3 YPA, and a 92.6 QB rating. Roethlisberger this year is 64.3 %, 4.9, 2.6%, 8.2 YPA, 95.6 QB rating.
For the season it is close, but it is hard to ignore that Stafford has struggled prior to this year. Ben still holds the lead this year.
Jay Cutler it isn’t even close, here are his career numbers: 61.1 % completion rate, 4.6 TD%, 3.4 INT%, 7.3 YPA, and 84.5 QB rating, Cutler has never had a QB rating over 88.5, Ben has been over 95 in all but two years of his career. It isn’t even close.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 10:02 AM EST up reply actions
Looking only at stats is misleading. It is arguable when discussing Cutler, Stafford and Ben. There is no definitive answer because they have different offenses and different teams altogether. Ben came into a team that was in the AFC championship two years before he got there so his starting situation can’t be compared to Stafford’s. Ben’s defense allows him to be in closer games and not have to take as many shots down field. This increases completion percentage and lowers interception rates so its not an apples to apples comparison. Stafford and Cutler both have better arms and if i had to start a franchise today I would pick both of them over Ben. This isn’t a statistical based argument just a gut feel when i watch the three of them play.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
yes but you ignore Ben's far stronger YPA which does suggest he's going down field
there was a statistical breakdown of Calvin Johnson and Mike Wallace this year and it showed that Wallace far exceeded Johnson in catches down the field, a lot of which has to do with the offense and of course who is at the helm.
Roethlisberger has thrown a higher percentage of his throws downfield (20 yards+ in the air) than Cutler in each of the last 3 years. And while I agree that Roethlisberger went into a good system, does that mean Rodgers isn’t that good b/c he did the same as well?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Never said Ben wasn't good
So i’m not sure how you draw from my statement that i am implying Rodgers isn’t good. We are splitting hairs on the 5th to 8th best QB in the league. There is nothing definitive one way or the other. I don’t think Ben sucks I just would take Cutler and Stafford before Ben in an imaginary build your franchise draft. Also throwing downfield is taken out of context because we don’t know down and distance, score of the game, defensive breakdowns, plays called and a host of other factors that play into that stat. Again this is just me looking at them play. Nothing I can say will convince you and vice versa. I’ve seen the 3 QBs in question play in quite a few games and in a vacuum i like Cutler and Stafford more than Ben. Its not by some huge margin i just think they are better passers. Its a lot like RG3. I don’t think he will be a successful NFL QB not because i have some indisputable facts but because when i watch him play i don’t see it translating to the pro game. Its not an argument that can really be quantified.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 12:46 PM EST up reply actions
I don't see how you can ignore the numbers
but i’ll take the guy who completes the ball more and throws it further.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Again using the stats as your deciding factor doesn’t factor in the situation and team they play for. Look at Steve Young’s stats from Tampa Bay and then look at Steve Young’s stats from SF. Do the same for Drew Brees in SD and then in New Orleans. When a guy goes to a better team his stats naturally increase. There is no question Ben has been on better teams then Stafford and Cutler yet his stats are not miles ahead of either guy. He has a career completion percentage 2 points higher than Cutler. Do you not think that had Cutler played on a better team that his percentage would rise a few points like it has for every other QB in NFL history?
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
And conversely had Ben played on the Lions or with the god awful Broncos defense do you think his stats would be what they are now?
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
last i checked the Broncos were a pretty good team that made quite a few playoffs in the years before Cutler was there
was it b/c of the defense? Not really, and the lack of a defense is why those Shanny teams didn’t win playoff games and why he is now a Redskin. But Cutler didn’t exactly go to a horrible team.
As for the Lions i agree that is an issue, that is why you don’t throw QB’s into bad situations.
and you can make the what if question about any QB. Sure a Brady or Brees (or Roethlisberger) would have been quite nice in 2005-2007 for the Skins when we had a decent to good offensive line. But do you think we’d be anything more than a .500 team these last few years with these guys (obviously getting the picks back for McNabb would help). And do you think their stats would be that great?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
last i checked the Bears with Cutler the last two years
are a better team than the Broncos with Cutler, yet Cutler’s numbers have been worse.
And you say that Big Ben shouldn’t get credit for only having 2 completion percentage points more than Cutler for his career, and the difference is accounted for the talent of their teams. If 2% isn’t a big difference than why not move Ben above Brady, Manning and Steve Young, b/c all 3 have less than a 2% gap, and have had better offensive weapons.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Well now you are bringing in other people which would have to compared on a case by case basis. Let’s stick with the Cutler and Ben discussion. Cutler had more weapons in Denver than in Chicago so that clearly explains a drop in numbers. Not throwing to Brandon Marshall and not throwing against the AFC West will drop anybodies numbers. As for if anyone of them were on the Skins that again is irrelevant to the discussion because the Skins were worst than either the Broncos/Bears or Steelers. We are talking about Cutler and Ben only. Surely you can admit if the two magically swapped teams that Ben’s numbers would probably drop playing with a worst defense. Being down by a larger margin or needing to produce more points to win would undoubtedly account for at least a percentage point or two. If the opposite is true then you basically just switched their completion percentages and now according to your criteria of completion percentage Cutler would be slightly higher than Ben. Again we are splitting hairs i don’t think Cutler is in a different discussion just slightly ahead of Ben and to judge them independent of team is the only way to really compare players in a team sport. You are not giving Cutler that luxury and i am.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 3:30 PM EST up reply actions
I think you are oversimplifying things
Cutler had better weapons and o-line in Denver, but in Chicago he has a running game, a defense and ST’s which we both agree to be important. At no point in time has Cutler been truely ‘on his own’.
Do I think Cutler might benefit from some time in Pittsburgh? Sure, but I really don’t believe the Steelers have as many SB appearances if that is the case.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
So to be clear
If you are building a team for next, you would take P. Manning, E. Manning, Rivers, Stafford, Romo, and Cutler over Ben?
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
Yeah i would
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 10:56 AM EST up reply actions
Romo would really be a toss up
As good as Romo is in the first 3 quarters he is terrible in the 4th and Ben’s biggest strength is he is a clutch player. So i don’t know if those even out or the clutch aspect puts him slightly ahead of Romo.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 10:59 AM EST up reply actions
i think you can make a case for Romo, and some of the arguments for Eli and Rivers make sense (though the numbers don't support it) but that is it
there is really no argument basis for Cutler or Stafford as their arms don’t seem to be as good as Ben’s.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
huh?
Cutler and Stafford both have better arms than Ben. Not sure what you are referring to.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
the numbers
Kyle Boller could through the ball 70 yards, doesn’t mean he has a better arm than Ben
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
IN YOUR FACE!!
Here is a ranking from the leading authority in all things NFL. I look forward to seeing you dispute the accuracy of a Bleach Report Slide Show. These things are used by all 32 GMs and are known as the bible of NFL knowledge by those in the know.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions
Ooh dream weaver
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I'm not saying we get him this draft but we will get a better qb than him eventually
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 14, 2011 11:30 PM EST up reply actions
possibly
some time in our life time..when we are old and grey. I think we can get a good QB in this year’s draft, but I would be content if his upside was that of Flacco. I do not expect any of the QB with the exception of Luck (who we are not getting) to be as good as Ben, Brady, Rodgers, or Brees.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
I dont understand the love affair with him on this site, I think Luck will be better than Ben
Griffin Jones Barkley all have a decent shot at being better and Foles is similar to Ben minus the horrid of the field concerns and he probly has more strength but clearly less mobility
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 1:11 AM EST up reply actions
What makes Rothlisberger elite?
He has a super bowl ring? So does Trent Dilfer
His has multiple super bowl rings? Yeah, for much the same reason as Dilfer: Elite Defense
If Manning had the Steelers D for the past 8 years, the Colts would have had dynasty. Heck, Matt Ryan would be “elite” with the Steelers D.
Prior to this year it was the defense and his ability to improvise after the play broke down (in much the same way as Tebow does – who everyone is debating if he is a QB). Ben was Mark Sanchez before Mark Sanchez was. Ben on the Colts team for the last 8 years wins NO rings. Elite means you can put them on any team and they can win. Put Brady, Brees, Rodgers, or Eli on 2011 Colts teams and they easily have 5-8 wins. Flacco would be decidedly average on any other team than the Ravens. Before this year he wasn’t as dangerous and two WR’s with sub 4.4. speed can change that. Run odd number routes and chuck it deep. I hate hearing about how he’s elite when his defense is the ONLY reason he has a ring.
Redskins @RGIII - 2012
by Copious 1 on Dec 15, 2011 12:34 AM EST up reply actions 2 recs
Thank God, rec'd
Hey did you hear how grossman went to the superbowl and lost I guess he and Marino are equals as qbs
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 12:36 AM EST up reply actions
Fun Facts about Roethlisberger
This is a list of the year, defensive ranking in terms of points allowed and record.
2004 #1 15-1 lost in playoffs after Ben throws 2 picks
2005 # 1 11-5 SB
2006 #11 8-8 no playoffs
2007 #2 10-6 lost in playoffs after Ben throws 3 picks and loses a fumble
2008 #1 12-4 SB, Ben has the worst game of any SB winning QB
2009 #12 9-7 no playoffs
2010 #1 1 2-4 SB lose after Ben throw 2 picks including a pick 6
2011 #2 1 0-3 TBD
Notice the record rises and falls with the defense and why even with the greatest defense of the last decade they still lose in the playoffs. This is a strong coloration. When the defense is elite they go far until Ben literally throws the game away. He gets some credit for winning two SBs but to pretend he is elite is a little silly.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 1:20 AM EST up reply actions
I get what you are saying, but it is also applicable to every SB winning team
The Packers, Steelers, Ravens and Patriots are no brainers for the argument, but lets look at some of the other teams:
Saints: While their rankings in points (20th) or yards (25th) weren’t too impressive, they did finish 2nd in turnovers and had 7 defensive touchdowns (I don’t think the Redskins have had 7 in the last 10 years).
Colts: Now everyone talks about how Manning won inspite of their defense, and while on the whole it was true, they relied on forcing teams to throw the ball, but getting up on them early, and in this department the defense allowed the 2nd fewest yards through the air.
Giants: The Giants only finished 17th in points allowed, but were 7th in yards, and 10th in first downs (limiting drives) and had 53 sacks that year.
Buccaneers: Yes Gruden the offensive guy might have won the trophy, but it was the Dungy’s defense that did the job. They finished 1st in yards, points , first downs and 3rd in Turnovers,
Rams: Not to take anything away from the Greatest show on Turf, but that defense was rocking as well. Their defense finished 4th in points, 6th in yards, 7th in 1st downs, and 6th in turnovers (helped by 57 sacks)
1998 Broncos- Shanny’s team finished 8th in points and 11th in yards
1997 Broncos- Again defense seems to matter, 6th in points, 5th in yards, 2nd in first downs, 9th in turnovers
1996 Packers- In addition to Brett Favre the Packers defense finished 1st in yards, points and 1st Downs, and 3rd in TO’s.
Go back further and you will see that the 49ers, Cowboys, Skins, Giants, Bears and Raiders dominated the 80’s and 90’s with defense (and of course going back further than that proves the point as well).
Like it or not the adage that defense wins championships still shows to be true.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
None ofthose defenses are close to Pittsburghs ranking, I get the love you Ben but he isn't brees or Peyton manning
The defenses won their games and championships
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 15, 2011 7:11 AM EST up reply actions
huh? how aren't those defenses close to the Steelers? The Rams and Packers finished 1st in every major category??
Ravens as well.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 10:03 AM EST up reply actions
really?
I did not see the defense show up against arizona a couple of years ago
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
That Arizona team had a legendary offense with a HOF QB, and 2 HOF WRs
was held to 21 points and the defense took a 101 yd int to the house which totally changed the game
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 1:17 AM EST up reply actions
true but their O-line was just solid, and they had no ground game (also while really good Boldin i'd say is a long shot for the HOF)
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I like Boldins stats more than his ability, hes in solid shape and will probly have several years in front of him
And dont question their run game they had Tim Hightower greatest rb in Redskins franchise history
by alwaysremember21 on Dec 16, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions
I agree completely
You can definitely say that about nearly every winning SB QB. I think that is part of the problem with all of the “we must have a franchise QB now” folks. Even the greats need help and in a lot of cases that help is what helps them to become great. I just think in Roethlisberger’s case that the help from the defense is so great that it knocks him out of that elite status down to the very good status.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 9:14 AM EST up reply actions
yes, we recognize that you are the only one...
who understands that SB winners have talent across the board. DUH!
Where I would disagree with your contention is, teams need a franchise QB to improve their odds of even getting to the playoffs / SB. Not that lesser talented QBs can’t get the team there, if the team has good defense and skill players elsewhere. But, you dramatically improve your odds of getting there when you have a great player at the recognized most important position in sports. This is why Green Bay, Indy (with Manning), NE, Pitt, NO are consistently in the playoffs.
but that isn't true
Look at the Bucs, Bears, Ravens etc. they’ve gone to the playoffs behind a number of poor to mediocre QB’s.
And the teams you mentioned (Green Bay, NE, Pitt) consistently have great defenses as well, which go a long way to their playoff success.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 10:25 AM EST up reply actions
I would be tempted to add
the Giants with Hostetler, the Redskins with Rypien. Lets face it Rypien could have had a beer and smoke and then gone back to pass behind that line in ’91
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
the Bucs don't count...
they have not been a perenial playoff team since winning the SB; Jay Cutler is a top 10 QB in the league (thanks for proving my point); and Flacco is solid, not great, which is why I don’t think they have much chance to win SB, unless Rice carries this team all the way.
the Bucs do count b/c between 1997-2007 they went to the playoffs 7 times which was your point
The Bears went to the playoffs behind Grossman and Orton as well, not to mention good old Jim Miller in 2001. Also it is fairly debatable that Cutler is a top 10 QB, his numbers don’t really support that over his career. My point with the Ravens goes back to the fact that they were a playoff team behind such QB greats as Steve McNair (at the end of his career), Kyle Boller, Tony Banks, Trent Dilfer and Elvis Grbac. The Jets went to the playoffs a number of times behind Pennington and now with Sanchez.
And even the Steelers, before Big Ben, they went to the playoffs behind Mike Tomzack, Tommy Maddox, Kordell Stewart and Neil O’Donnell.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 10:47 AM EST up reply actions
but none won the SB...
Tampa’s run was solely because of a great defense, led by Warren Sapp, John Lynch and Derrick Brooks. But they couldn’t even get to the SB, UNTIL Jon Gruden’s lightning in a bottle, and nothing since.
The Bears were never going to win the SB with those QBs. Nor would the Ravens or the Steelers. Great defenses, and I do mean GREAT, MEAN defenses can get you to the SB, but the extremely few examples of average QBs winning SB is a weak agrument, to fan bases wanting SB wins.
To demonstrate my Lightning in a Bottle effect – If you asked a Buc fan (which my son is one) if they believe there team is a GREAT organization now, they would say no. No franchise QB, no great defense, no real chance of SB win anytime in the near future. Pittsburgh continues to find talent, great defense, and were able to get Roths, which gives their fan bases plenty of excitement for a SB win.
huh??
This is what you said:
Where I would disagree with your contention is, teams need a franchise QB to improve their odds of even getting to the playoffs / SB.
No where in there did you mention winning the Super Bowl. The point is that no matter how great a QB, it won’t matter without things like an O-line and defense. And history shows it is pretty unlikely that we are going to draft a QB and put him on a bad team and he becomes a franchise guy.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions
Super Bowls have been won by teams w/o great OL
you need OL and defense but they don’t have to be great units just like a QB doesn’t have to be great. But having a great QB makes getting there and winning a lot easier.
of course it is easier
but do you know how hard it is to find a great QB, esp. since the barometer here seems to be capable of winning a SB? So what makes you think that Griffin or Barkley will be that guy, when even Carson Palmer, Phillip Rivers, Donovan McNabb etc. haven’t been?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 12:13 PM EST up reply actions
the games...
the film. I’ve seen both these guys enough to tell me there is great potential.
I would love to have Rivers or Palmer / McNabb in their prime. At least, as a fan, I would believe that my team had a chance. Would we still have to put together a defense and OL, yes. And I would hope that the staff / FO could do so. But the QB would give me optimism.
and i'm not disagreeing with that
what i’m saying is people try to use ‘you need a franchise QB to win the SB’ but ignore that of late those guys aren’t really the guys that were expected to be Franchise guys.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
so, Steve...
when we finish 4-12, what reason will you attach to our dismal record? Kicker cost us a couple of games, should we select kicker in the 1st? Who knows, maybe he will become the next Jan Stenarud…
Common sense seems to have been lost. There is a reason certain positions are taken later in the draft. They require singular assignments. The QB needs to understand the entire offense, where all players are going to be and decide in an instant where to go with the ball and then put it there. The position itself demands so much more, that when you see this talent displayed on the college level, you have no choice but select him.
frankly one of the biggest things that concern me is putting too much stock on what they did at the college level
Matt Barkley and Griffin both had HUGE years, but before that they looked a lot more tame. I think people are trying to put them up as these surefire franchise QB’s when I don’t know if that is true.
As I’ve said before I don’t see Barkley as a top 10 QB (year in, year out). I believe he is at best Matt Ryan, but probably more likely to be a Flacco type.
Griffin has Franchise potential, but the size and ability to translate his game to the NFL worries me. I think he has all the tools, but the toughest thing to learn in the NFL is you can’t outrun everybody. I think he’s smart enough to know that, but i still wish I had more data.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
given your thought process...
a Flacco type
should be enough to get to the playoffs.
Throughout this entire blog, you offer more resistance, due to, what it appears to me as, stubbornness. You actually admit RG3 has Franchise potential, yet you have established your position so strongly, you refuse to bend. That is your perogative, and I have enjoyed the back-n-forth, but we are not going to agree.
It's not stubborness and I'm not 'against' taking a QB
I’m just sick of hearing how it is such a great idea and exactly what we need, and have people ignore the facts.
Drafting Barkley could be the answer for this team, but my point is to dismiss that trading back, or drafting a top tackle and taking a Tannehill or Weeden is a complete fallacy.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
another example of your double standard...
putting too much stock on what they did at the college level
you use Weeden’s college career stats as the basis for your belief in his ability to be ready to start. You can’t use them to prove your feeling for one guy and then disregard them to disprove the other guys.
Weeden wasn't a one year wonder
though my overall point is that people are making these QB’s out to be so great and yet ignore that their stats are basically the same as a Weeden or Foles. I agree it is more to it than that, but i’m not sure what intangibles everyone is going cuckoo over.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I guess that is why each team has a scouting department...
because everyone has a different opinion on rating these guys. You, apparently would rate Weeden ahead of Barkley / RG3. I have it the other way around. The only way anyone will know who is more accurate will be three/four years from now. And, even then, given which team these guys go to, and the circumstances they find themselve in, we may never know.
no i didn't say that Weeden was better than Griffin/Barkley
I said he was safer, and if you want a QB to start in the next year, he’s your guy. I also think Weeden could have more value as a 2nd/3rd rounder than Barkley/Griffin as a 1st rounder.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Maybe the truth lies in this fact...
Great organizations now how to build great teams, with Great QBs, OL, and defenses.
The question is, if you are not one of the Great Organizations, and you want to be one, where do you start. Last years draft for this team was MAJOR, giving us a gigantic leap towards establishing a great defense, with a little tweaking. Now we need the QB and OL.
yes, we recognize that you are the only one...
Who understands that a franchise QB “improve their odds of even getting to the playoffs” DUH! Nobody disputes that a franchise improves your odds. A great place kicker improves your odds, a great running back improves your odds, a great line improves your odds, great coaches improve your odds, great scouts improves your odds. Again everybody knows if you have Brady, Manning, Rodgers or Brees that you are better than if you didn’t have one of those 4. The question is what do you build first. When you are a bad team do you build your line first or draft a QB who is not the #1 overall pick. You can not find a team in recent history that took a non #1 overall pick and built around him and then won a SB. It doesn’t happen. It has only happened one of two ways. Either you get the #1 overall pick(Manning) or you have a decent team and then add that final piece(Rodger, Roethlisberger, Brady, Brees). This idea that bad teams are taking early QBs who were not the #1 overall pick and building around him to win SuperBowl glory is a myth.
UVA and Virginia Tech students have a lot in common. We were all accepted to Virginia Tech.
by Jeff Bernard on Dec 15, 2011 10:41 AM EST up reply actions
wow...
saying Ben was the Mark Sanchez before Mark Sanchez was is so blatantly false it isn’t even funny. Big Ben is top 10 among active players (including guys who were former long term starters now riding the bench) in every major statistical category (Completion , YPA, TD, QBR, etc.) Mark Sanchez I don’t think has cracked the top 20 in any single year…
and you can make the defensive argument about just about every SB team and QB. How many SB’s has Brady won without a top defense??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
+ 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
and if you don't think Roethlisberger is elite or great or anything in that realm and that he is propped up by his defense, why are you shilling for RGIII, b/c the chance that he (or any QB not named Luck) is better than Big Ben is less than 5%
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Elite vs. Good
Ben is not elite, but he is a good QB. Luck can be good to elite, RGIII can be good or elite, Barkley projects more good to me than elite. What we are talking about in rookies is a ceiling, not where they are now. They can beat out Grossman and have the potential to be significantly better. Elite to me means plug-and-play on any team in the league and they will still be a top QB and lead their team to the playoffs. THAT….is not Ben. Not even close.
Redskins @RGIII - 2012
by Copious 1 on Dec 15, 2011 8:07 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
then that probably isn't Brady either
b/c Tom Tom, has needed a particular style system and a top notch O-line his entire career. And he’s only won SB’s when he had a top notch defense as well. Big Ben is a far more versatile QB than Brady.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Dec 15, 2011 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
my theory on Brady
Look at his draft photo, Pats scouts described him as “horrible body.” He looks like scarescrow standing there in his boxers, it’s clear he was no weight room junkie in college. Within a few season in the NFL that changed and he developed a terrific arm and became the best qb in the league for long stretches because he could make every single throw that he could see was available. If it was all being smart and reading defenses, many more players would have success at the NFL level….but knowing what to do doesnt help you if you cant make elite throws. That’s why Matt Ryan CANT be tom brady, the arm just isnt there
Well
manning was a better QB than Ben, and he might very well have gotten to more SB than Ben. Offcourse Ben has been to 3 SB in hald the time it took Manning to get to 2 SB. Not sure why Ben getes no credit for that.
The NE Defense was almost if not as good as the Steeler D when they went to the SB.
Put Ben on the Colts team and they have 5 wins.
Put Ben on the Redskins and they are in the playoffs.
When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." -Russell Ziskey
disagree
respectfully disagree with you completely.. Big Ben wins.. he is a more skilled version of Tebow.. the kind of guy who will find a way to beat you in the 4th quarter, even if he has played poorly for most of the game
I wasnt aware
that tebow also goes my the name Prater and Defense. weird.
"Women should have three breasts - two in front and one in the back for dancing." -Al Bundy
by HankMonahan on Dec 15, 2011 12:09 AM EST up reply actions
does your momma know you are using the family computer after your bedtime ?
it is called an analogy.. Both Tebow and Ben are flawed QB’s but at the end of the day, more often than not, their team ends up winning. Ben has a far better skill set and has a longer and better resume. He also plays on a better team.. But even a casual look will reveal that throughout his career Tebow has managed to QB teams to a winning record and beyond.
He inspires his team to play well and even the Defensive players are impacted by what he does. He just wins. He also takes care of the ball and doesnt turn it over in critical times.
We could use some of that on our team
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