Redskins Coaching Conundrum: Start Youth or Coach Them Up First?
by Kevin Ewoldt on Dec 1, 2011 11:09 AM EST
in Redskins Analysis
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PrintA couple days ago on Twitter, Redskins beat writers Grant Paulsen (106.7 THE FAN) and Rich Campbell (Washington Times) had a lengthy, intellectual debate over how Shanahan is using the young guys. A lot of NFL coaches start their rookies immediately and let them learn while they make mistakes, whereas Mike Shanahan prefers to sit them game days until they show in practice they can play. So, which methodology is better?
For Redskins fans like myself, it's hard to watch the revolving door of all these geriatric WRs and RBs come through while Hankerson and Helu re-tie their shoes on the pine. After the jump is their full debate as well as Redskins great, Brian Mitchell's thoughts on the subject. To Rich Campbell's defense, he seemed to be playing more devil's advocate in this debate. Matt Terl also jumped in with a solid comment I agree with.
Perry Riley's made 34 tackles in his first 3 #NFL starts. Rocky McIntosh, in his 6th season, has never had that many in a 3-game stretch.
Would've liked to see Riley get chance to start sooner. #Redskins didn't think he was ready. Kind of like Hank & Helu. All responded well.
I've always felt like the #Redskins are bigger on the 'don't want to put too much on his plate' thing than a lot of teams. #PlayYourTalent
With each blown blitz-pickup you allow Helu to learn from, comes a run like his hurdling, TD sprint. Gotta let them learn.. #PlayYourTalent
Other teams let guys play: Doug Baldwin wasn't drafted. Had ton of developing to. Has played every game for SEA. He's their No. 1 WR now.
Other teams let kids learn while playing: #Browns drafted Greg Little in 2nd-round and played him immediately. He's their top WR right now.
granthpaulsen
Bad teams aren't the only ones that let kids learn on fly. Torrey Smith struggled with routes, catching ball early. 11g, 9 starts for BAL.
Rich_Campbell
@granthpaulsen Safe to say Lee Evans' injury had something to do with that.
granthpaulsen
@Rich_Campbell I don't know how safe that is to say to be honest. In BAL, good players play. Sure, the injury got him chances quicker.
granthpaulsen
@Rich_Campbell My point is that Redskins would've signed David Anderson or Andre Reed or Kevin Lockett or Chris Doering to replace Evans...
Wolfram99
@granthpaulsen But they started Hankerson AND gave @Niles_Paul extended playing time, I think shanny has done a great job with the rookies
granthpaulsen
@Wolfram99 They started Hankerson midway through the season after injuries at WR.
Rich_Campbell
@granthpaulsen You say PR56 should've played because he's better than Rocky. Shanny would say PR56 is playing better b/c they groomed him in practice.
granthpaulsen
@Rich_Campbell There are a lot more teams Riley would've played on way before he did here than not. WSH's 'ready' is different than most.
Rich_Campbell
@granthpaulsen I agree with you about PR56 but coaches sat him for a reason. You can't say how good/bad he'd have been playing immediately
andesangle
@Rich_Campbell @granthpaulsen Helu didn't start til he learned to block. Shanny is easing in the younguns successfully
Rich_Campbell
@andesangle @granthpaulsen His method seems to work. Could youngsters have excelled sooner? Who knows. We're not at practice or in meetings
granthpaulsen
@Rich_Campbell Saying method works is assuming they couldn't have done it 2 games ago. They suddenly became 'ready.' Don't buy that at all.
Rich_Campbell
@granthpaulsen So, on the flip side, you assume they were ready all along?
matt_terl
@Rich_Campbell @granthpaulsen Seems to me that when a guy has proven that his upside outweighs his liability, he plays. That simple.
Rich_Campbell
Terl, FTW! RT @matt_terl: @granthpaulsen Seems to me that when a guy has proven that his upside outweighs his liability, he plays. Simple.
granthpaulsen
@Rich_Campbell Ha! I'll rest my case in the productivity that follows opps. Oh wait, forgot they just got good enough to produce.
Rich_Campbell
@granthpaulsen Don't forget that 4 games before Hankerson went 7 for 100, he ran the wrong route and John Beck was intercepted
granthpaulsen
@Rich_Campbell Haven't forgotten. Where we disagree: I'd rather him make that mistake and be better for it than stand on sideline watching.
Rich_Campbell
@granthpaulsen Shanahan agrees, apparently. Hank, after all, was in the game. But if he was that unprepared then, how bad was it before?
granthpaulsen
@Rich_Campbell Hankerson was in a game that was out of reach after an injury (Moss). Pressed into duty. Diff. than prepping him to start.
Rich_Campbell
@granthpaulsen So the way they eased Hank into a start was OK but not how they did that with Helu?
granthpaulsen
@Rich_Campbell Not sure what you mean. Hank played out of need that day is the point. Not b/c Shanny wanted him on the field over others.
Rich_Campbell
@granthpaulsen We'll have to sort it out tomorrow, then, during a ride on the Pizza-Go-Round.
------------------------ End of Discussion -------------------------------
Before I throw in my two cents, I asked Brian Mitch what his take was on this:
BMitch: "I feel if my weakness is my lack of experience then let me play. The more I show that I can handle then the more you give me. Coaches have always used the excuse of guy being young or inexperienced, but I believe that the sooner a player starts getting playing time the sooner you know what you have whether good or bad.
I totally agree with Grant. The speed in practice doesn't teach you the speed of the game."
I guess my rebuttal to BMitch is, if the rookie is screwing up in practice, which isn't full speed, should he be starting? I'd like to think the Shanahans are smart enough to realize who gives the Redskins the best chance to win. If that's a WR who can get open between 5-8 yards but has no yards after catch speed, then so be it. With the lack of running game and ailing OLine, perhaps it is best to sit rookies until they are not making mental mistakes that will get the QB killed. At the same time, Terrence Austin's upside was greater than anything Joey Galloway could accomplish last year, so why was Austin on the bench for so long?
Obviously hind-sight is 20-20, which makes this debate near un-winnable. I'm looking forward to the comments.
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it seems it depends on the player
both kerrigan and neild got playing time immediately…not exactly sure why that is, but i would assume they understood the playbook and their assignments as well as anybody else getting playing time (plus talent and lack of depth may also have influenced the decision)
As for me, all I know is that I know nothing.
*Socrates*
also shanahan is a racist
or thats what callers say everyday on 106.7
Counting cards isn't illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane.
LOL 106 makes me want to cry.
Sad excuse for a Sports talk station.
Dear Passionate fan, I know you are passionate, but please reply with a logical answer or I will ignore you.
by TerpsAllTheWay on Dec 1, 2011 12:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
its actually getting better on being so negative all the time (i think)
But man some of their callers are completely crazy.
Shanahan is a racist and needs to go
The only reason he treated McNabb like that was because he’s black
….So Shanahan just brought McNabb here, to be an arrogant racist to him?
Counting cards isn't illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane.
106.7 is straight trash talk and their average listener is a low order human with below average mental capacity..
Loud mouthed. Don't like it? Welcome to the freedom and liberty of the United States of America and never forget to go fuck yourself
by willismagillacutty on Dec 1, 2011 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
is there really a far better product on 980?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
No way. I love listening to Lavar take 5 mins to complete a sentence, Mike Wise constantly talk about changing the team name and Dukes pretending he isn’t a fat kid with no knowledge about team sports.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
Rich Campbell said he took this debate to Shanny and Haslett and will have more details tomorrow.
"Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you’re not, in fact, surrounded by assholes." - William Gibson
Coach em' up!
It’s the same thing that people have argued regarding a “losing culture.” If they get in the game and struggle the coaches are NOT going to take it easy on them; when you hit the field you better be the best player at your position on the roster. Give them time to gain the confidence in practice and EARN their start. But just like w/ Kerrigan whether he stunk hit up or excelled like he has, he was still head and shoulders above LoAx. Just like next year, if Rex Grossman is still on the roster any of the top 3 or 4 QBs in the draft WILL be head and shoulders above him OR they should sit.
Redskins @LandryJones - 2012
I'm with Rich on this one.
Shanahan has got it exactly right. Who’s to say if Perry Riley was the starter when the season began, that he’d have played as well as he has. Shanahan has eased in the young guys perfectly. Matt Terl hit the nail on the head:
“Seems to me that when a guy has proven that his upside outweighs his liability, he plays. That simple”.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
Exactly! From what I remember Riley was a bum in preseason.
Counting cards isn't illegal. It's frowned upon, like masturbating on an airplane.
My memory and your words.
Perry sucked in preseason. Shanny coached him up, and now he’s showing that he can be very good.
In the meantime, Shanny didn’t have him out there, learning how to FAIL… remember that “Learning to Win as a team” thing we’ve been discussing? On a more personal level, it’s “Learning to play and win”. That means coaching them up in practice before burning them up on the field.
No Danny, Nooooooo - Tom Landry, 1982., and Washington Redskins fans, 1999-
I think it depends on a number of factors
-position
-talent level
-potential
-what they’ve shown in practice
-the guys in front of them
Now a position like QB is different b/c there is such a learning curve, and they are so dependent on other factors (o-line, running game, talented pass catchers). So I believe that is an entire different debate.
As for the rest it is a case by case basis.
Helu- pretty much all rookie runningbacks struggle at picking of the blitz so that it isn’t a surprise when Hightower is getting the starts. Hightower is a solid runner, but one who excels in pass protection and catching the ball out of the backfield. He also had the awareness to chase down two defenders looking for 6. That is head’s up football that you probably won’t find in a rookie. What I didn’t understand was playing Torain about Helu, when it was quite clear that Helu was the better runner and receiver. Torain isn’t good at all in pass blocking and isn’t what I’d call a ’head’s up’ football player. Now I wouldn’t have given Helu 20-25 carries a game, but he should have been getting probably 60% of the carries and building up.
Hankerson- It was pretty clear in the preseason that he wasn’t fully ready. So I don’t think he should have been starting over Gaffney/Moss. Now with Armstrong struggling and getting injured, and Stallworth and Austin not producing, I would have given Hankerson more early opportunities.
Riley- Look Riley obviously wasn’t ready last year, and with the lockout this year, if the Redskins didn’t see it from him in the initial practices then I totally understand the McIntosh signing. It’s very likely that Riley wasn’t ready to perform at the same level at the beginning of the season. Also, lets keep in mind that while Riley is playing well, it is with the caveat of a young guy making his 3rd NFL start. ILB guys drafted in the 2nd-4th round last year like Sean Lee, Darryl Washington and Navarro Bowman are playing at a true ‘star’ level. Riley’s playing well and better than McIntosh, but it’s not as if we were hiding a true stud LB (I’m not saying he can’t be in the future, just that he’s not that now).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I'm with you
totally depends on the player and so far they seem to be doing an alright job. Some were ready on day 1 (Kerrigan, Neild), others have gotten ready later.
At some point they have to be allowed to sink or swim but throwing them out before they’re ready has risks. Some guys will rise to the challenge while for others it could be a huge detriment to their growth.
by SkinsOsTerps on Dec 1, 2011 12:53 PM EST up reply actions
He only reason I would support starting the rookies earlier
Is because of the nature of this season and upcomig offseason.
The rookies might make mistakes that cost us games if started immediately (and learn from them) but like we have discussed there is a silver lining in that because all it can do is help our draft position. Not saying I want to lose, but just that giving rookies experience at the risk of losing might be more acceptable in this situation than in other seasons
by tman5 on Dec 1, 2011 12:16 PM EST via mobile reply actions
"...the Shanahans..."
“… are smart enough to realize who gives the Redskins the best chance to win.” What was the 3-game Beck experiment then?! I’m not so sure the confidence in that statement is fully earned.
Some guys need more coaching, some guys can do it from Day 1. Treat them all equally and you don’t treat them fairly. Give each what he needs then push them from the nest. They fly, or don’t, on their own. Beck crash landed on his head.
I think there's a lot that happened there behind closed doors
A cominbation of the fact that Rex literally played himself out of a starting role by throwing 4 picks against Philly then immediately got pneumonia or whatever. I’ve heard a lot of people say that it’s unlikely Rex would have started those three games regardless due to illness.
Now that doesn’t mean that the Shanahans made the right decision but I have the feeling there’s more to that story.
by SkinsOsTerps on Dec 1, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
I'm not advocating it
But it may have been that Rex’s 4 int’s gave them an excuse to start beck, and possibly intentionally boost our draft position, without making it look like tanking.
It’s certainly possible.
Then why spontaneous go back to Grossman after committing to Beck during the Dolphins game?
makes no sense
They went to Beck to see if he could give them a spark. He got 3 starts and showed absolutely nothing, so they switched back, not that hard to comprehend.
And never believe anything Shanahan says, he’s outwardly stated that he has no commitment to being honest with the media
At least two of those three games, Rex would NOT have started.
One of them, even if Beck had gotten hurt, I don’t see how you put Rex in because of the pneumonia; they literally pulled him from the hospital to stand on the sidelines, then sent him back after the game.
No Danny, Nooooooo - Tom Landry, 1982., and Washington Redskins fans, 1999-
+100
posted a similar sentiment below before I saw your post. I’m pretty convinced the Shannys blew it with the John Beck experiment. You had reliable, wise veterans immediately backing rex after the Philly loss for a reason….Beck was ass.
Hail to 'Em
by SkinsaneAsylum on Dec 1, 2011 1:37 PM EST up reply actions
Generally I agree that it was a bad move, in an admittedly tough spot
nevertheless, the rumor is that Rex couldn’t have played anyway.
So which youngsters are we looking at right now that we wish were getting more PT?
Obviously Helu and Royster are getting chances. Paul and Paulsen are getting a lot of experience. Hurt is in there now. Nield and Jackson are both getting 5-10 snaps a game. Dejon Gomes is getting experience
Maybe Riley should have gotten in there earlier, but McIntosh didn’t have a bad start to the season. Overall, it seems like the young players are playing very well, so I’m inclined to give credit and say that the coaching staff is doing something right rather than think they should have been out there sooner.
I'd LIKE to see Hank getting more playing time, along with Jernigan.
But since they’re both on IR…..
Otherwise, I like the current mix of how they are working guys in. I might like to see a bit more Royster, I suppose, to see if he can be the third guy all by himself to Helu and Hightower.
No Danny, Nooooooo - Tom Landry, 1982., and Washington Redskins fans, 1999-
Who is Jernigan?
I think we have a Giants fan posing as a redskins fan.
That would be
Jenkins at DE with Kerrigan behind
"I'd like to think the Shanahans are smart enough to realize who gives the Redskins the best chance to win."
….you mean like playing John Beck over Rex for three games?
Hail to 'Em
Rex played him out of the starting role against the Eagles.
Beck played clean up in that game and had the one game he earned, plus a 2nd chance in case the first game was a mirage. Going on along side of that was the fact that Rex came down with pneumonia and the fact that no one wants to flip flop QB’s numerous times in a season so there had to be an absolute certainty that Beck < Grossman before switching back. It’s a sad day when Grossman IS the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd best QB option on the team.
Redskins @LandryJones - 2012
The Shanahans are not perfect!
But who among us is?!!!
1. Dont call for rookies to play and learn from their mistakes; but at the same time say that doing the same for Beck was a bad decision
2. Coaching up a player goes beyond teaching a playbook. Some of these rookies are not mentally nor physically ready for game day…we have seen too many rookies spend their season on IR becuase they just weren’t ready! The coaches plan has been great, it has prepared them all around and now we see the fruits of that…y complain that it didn’t happen soon enough when we are not playing for the post season anyway?!!! Its about them getting enough experience to be a strong value add when next year’s rookies come onboard…and to stay healthy enough to get that experience.
Let the administration build a fundamentally sound team…we gripe about the littlest things…yet, if he started the rookies day one…someone else would have complained that they were in too early. Let them work their plan…and trust that we will have a much better team to root for next year…because its starting to show now!
Now they see why we love our skins so much...HTTR!!!
i wanna see banks in at WR
seems like he is healthy now. if he does good at wr we could get alot out of him if we trade him instead of just cutting him. ied also like to see torain more so some teams wantes to give us something for him
No you don't
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
i halfway agree with this one
but only b/c i want to see sum trade value for these guys…we effed up the C. Cooley thing….we should work sumthin out for these guys
Trade value? You can't be serious.
I don’t think the CBA made trades between the NFL and Arena league valid yet.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Whose playing time should he cut into?
Niles Paul?
David Anderson?
You know….real guys that have a shot of being on the team for years.
I would much prefer he be cut and Aldrick Robinson be given a shot. He can actually play WR and won’t die if he gets hit coming across the middle.
Redskins @LandryJones - 2012
david anderson really?
niles paul isnt that good either . least not yetbut i could care less about mr anderson
Banks > Anderson @ WR? Really?
You believe that? Not only do you believe that, but you type that? And not only do you type that, but you hit the post button?
Redskins @LandryJones - 2012
by Copious 1 on Dec 1, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
If Brandon Banks was cut today, I'd be STUNNED if he played in another NFL game beyond preseason for any team.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I'm not sure about that.
There are some teams that could use a good return man, but those teams are already well stacked, and could use the extra little bow on the package, so to speak… like….. um…. The Saints? No. The Packers? Maybe, but…. no. The Texans? um…. maybe. The Pats? No. The TebowsBroncos? (“Didn’t you just say stacked? The Broncos aren’t stacked!” “Yeah, but they play weird players” “Sheesh… oh wait, stop typing… people will realize you have little arguements in your head all the time!” “Yeah, like next you’ll tell me they think you’re Jim Gaffigan!”) Maybe. The Raiders? RIP Al Davis, so no, unless the shade of Al comes back, in which case there’s the team.
No Danny, Nooooooo - Tom Landry, 1982., and Washington Redskins fans, 1999-
End Strike fail. Unstrike everything after the cutesy "Tebows" part, starting with the word "Broncos"
No Danny, Nooooooo - Tom Landry, 1982., and Washington Redskins fans, 1999-
"good" is the key word
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
and Banks is??
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
50 bucks banks gets a td in the next 2 games.
if we give him work at wr. we could get a good pick or throw him in with one of our picks to move up the draft
Or instead of Banks we could package the pick with a kicking net, they hold about the same value.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
So you going to steal his $50 (if he pays up) Parks?
No Danny, Nooooooo - Tom Landry, 1982., and Washington Redskins fans, 1999-
He's not going to play WR so there will be no bet
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
1. I saw him play WR last year he’s not any good. Don’t you think that there’s a reason why we sign a different WR every week instead of giving Banks a shot (again).
2. He doesn’t have any trade value b/c he’s not very good. Who the hell is going to trade for Banks?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Banks, really?
I think Banks story is a good (but not great) story. I dont see why we make statements such as “using him as trade value”? Get it straight folks, he doesnt have trade value. We all love our Redskins but we have to take our homer caps off and realize that the guy is average, at best. We hold onto the possibility that he can break one at any time, but lets be real, Terrence Austin stands just as much chance of breaking one. The difference is that TA has shown flashes as WR, which is the main basis for the argument.
Munson, you are probably right…he will probably break one this year. I dont think he was making the roster in the preseason until he broke the one (that I believe was called back). He will break one just in time to earn a spot for the rest of the year.
by Bryan Black on Dec 1, 2011 10:02 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
After the Eagles loss tonight, I decided to head over to BGN to gauge their feelings.
After skimming over all the fire Andy/keep Andy posts, I came across a FanShot about Casey Mathews titled Casey Mathews Sounds Off and I felt it could add to this discussion.
The Oregon product was asked if he wished things had worked out in reverse fashion, where he labored in obscurity to start the year and was shown the stage once he had firmer footing.
"Looking at it now, obviously that would have been the best way to do it," he said. "But coming in as a rookie starting, you think it’s a dream come true, and then things started going a little crazy."
nice find!
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
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