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Statisticians and economists weigh in on predicting NFL QB success from college

I was wondering what economists and statisticians had to say about the best predictors of NFL success from college players.  My depressing conclusion after the jump..


Star-divide

I had vaguely remembered that the only real indicator of NFL success was this Parcells theory of college success:  did a guy start for 3 years, did he have 27 wins, and something else.  But I was wondering what evidence lay behind this.  Sadly, the answer is none.  As a guy with a Ph.D. I was happy to dive back into some academic texts.  But let me just provide the top few and their key conclusions, and some references for the nerds out there:

1) Malcolm Gladwell New Yorker Article

This is more of an easy reading intro to the topic.  It raises the general idea (note that it is long and has a bunch of stuff about teachers in it).  I remember reading it when it came out, but it was all the more poignant to re-read relative to the Redskins because it talked about a) how there where 5 highly rated QBs in McNabb's class, but he was the only one with success and b) it features a scout talking about how awesome Chase Daniels was going to be in the NFL (sorta).

2) Berri-Simmons Article

This is the current reigning champ of the statistical analysis of how to predict QB success from college and combine performance.  It had four main conclusions from my standpoint: 1) if you grade QBs on cumulative things like games started or total yards, high draft picks rack up more of these (duh) than low ones.  However, 2) If you look at things like value added per play or yards per play or more performance based metrics, there is an extremely weak correlation to draft position.  Additionally, 3) NFL draft position is disproportionately influenced by combine performance, specifically height, BMI, Wonderlich, and 40 yard dash, but 4) combine performance has virtually zero correlation with actual performance.

So my plain English recap is: 1) GMs fall in love with taller, faster, smarter prospects and draft them higher 2) these prospects have no better chances than others of succeeding 3) After drafting a QB that they picked, they play him a lot, but 4) he has no better chance of succeeding than some random guy picked behind him.  

3) A yet more academic treatment of the topic, but with excellent bibliography to follow further if you are interested

This one does conclude that on average 1st round picks perform better than 7th round ones (duh!) but that there is no correlation between any indicator of college performance, or combine performance, and success.  The implicit suggestion is that NFL scouts/teams are able to use other info (interviews, etc.) to figure out that one group should probably go early and another group (of QBs) should go later.  However, the colloråry to this 'success of scouts theory'  that is that the relationship is not that strong - e.g. this is true when comparing 1st round vs. 7th round success, but that if 6 QBs were picked in the 1st round, a dartboard would be as good a predictor as actual draft position in the 1st round of success (not quite, but you get my point).

Anyway I found it interesting, but sobering.  One word summary:  crapshoot.  Or maybe better, lottery ticket.  Let's hope we get lucky (no pun intended), but for god's sake draft whoever is left, and don't trade up for your guy, unless he is a once in a generation guy like Ryan Leaf Andrew Luck.


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If anyone has other academic sources for me to check out, or some of the NFL scout rule of thumb type things, let me know and I will check them out.

by hempstead on Nov 23, 2011 11:05 PM EST reply actions  

One other source.....

Edsal Murphy’s Laws of Probability. The final authoritative word.

by DudleyDoright on Nov 24, 2011 8:27 AM EST reply actions  

Am I the only one who thinks this Andrew Luck kid

Is actually going to turn out to be a giant douchbag? Something about him just rubs me the wrong way, I feel like he has this unhealthy amount of entitlement like he’s better than everyone else figuratively. No humility whatsoever. I just feel like he’s going to be an enormous bust.

Dear Passionate fan, I know you are passionate, but please reply with a logical answer or I will ignore you.

by TerpsAllTheWay on Nov 24, 2011 9:24 AM EST via mobile reply actions  

I'm always very impressed when I watch Luck play

The kid is definitely an unreal talent. I think what’s plagued people in his position before is a lack of work ethic to transition to a faster, more complicated game. I can’t say 100%, but I do not think Luck has this lack of dedication.

by SSBlitz on Nov 24, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions  

If we got the no. 1 pick somehow

I highly doubt he would want to play for this franchise due to preconceived notions that we’re still a mess. To be honest I don’t think Shanahan is too high on him.

Dear Passionate fan, I know you are passionate, but please reply with a logical answer or I will ignore you.

by TerpsAllTheWay on Nov 24, 2011 12:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I think those preconceived notions are more among ignorant fans.

Luck is strong study of the game. I think the renaissance of our team culture under Shanahan would be apparent and appealing to him.

by SSBlitz on Nov 25, 2011 11:06 AM EST up reply actions  

His dad lives in West Virginia

and he’s already said he’d love a chance to play close to home……….who’s closer to home than the Redskins?

And for Shanny, how could he not love the kid? He’s got John Elway written all over him. Every attribute Elway had, this kid has.

If Shanny’s smart(and we know he is), he’ll keep very tight lipped on this one. He’ll tell Bruce, “I want this kid; make it happen”, then he’ll sit back and play coy.

Crying Lion

by Tiller56 on Nov 25, 2011 11:26 AM EST up reply actions  

Who is closer to home?

If my experience working with a bunch of West Virginia residents is any indication…Luck may be the new QB for the Steelers.

Buncha condescending jagovs…

by The Agent C 83 on Nov 26, 2011 12:44 AM EST up reply actions  

+1

My friend is from Western MD, he could drive to WV or PA in 15 mins. Needless to say when we first met I thought he’d be a Skins fan, nope he’s an obnoxious Steelers fan.

Dear Passionate fan, I know you are passionate, but please reply with a logical answer or I will ignore you.

by TerpsAllTheWay on Nov 26, 2011 9:29 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Some guy on youtube posts reviews of games by top qb propspects

Shows every pass play from each game for Landry, RG3, Barkley, etc….I’m not sure how you can come to a better conclusions than basically watching every single play of the guy’s career. Last week was great in that Rg3/Landry were on the same field and Barkley was in a huge game too.

One of the biggest derailers is these kids arent fully physically matured and you can’t predict how they’ll end up. Overall it’s a crpashoot

by DCrez on Nov 24, 2011 9:29 AM EST reply actions  

That is a good way to judge but even that is a terrible indicator. The throws kids get away with in college against guys who will be working at Sears in a year is very misleading. Especially QBs who play in any conference not named the SEC. What percentage of college players become starters in the Pros? That is the competition you see them against.

When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.

by Jeff Bernard on Nov 26, 2011 9:55 AM EST up reply actions  

imho only two guys coming out this year have enough arm to be elite NFL qb's

Luck and RG3. Have yet to see Barkley or Landry throw the kind of 45yd bullets that Luck and Griffin do. Regardless of the competition, you can just see with your eyes when a guy has zip on the ball. And whether he is accurate or not.

Obviously players with ok arms can be good and have solid careers, but personally I dont want to use our top pick on a player with Matt Ryan’s ceiling….there is a definite limit to how good you can be with great decisions and a pedestrian arm.

On the other hand, Matt Ryan is 10x better than what we’ve been dealing with so I guess getting a guy of that caliber should be thrilling…

by DCrez on Nov 26, 2011 2:23 PM EST up reply actions  

Were you watching Oliver Luck? Andrew Luck has no zip on any of his passes. That is the big knock from Phil Simms against him. Everyone of his passes is slow. Not sure what you are watching.

When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.

by Jeff Bernard on Nov 26, 2011 3:55 PM EST up reply actions  

RG3 it is then!

seriously though, i’ve watched less of Luck because we cant have him but have seen some plays where he throws it well downfield without the air under it that Barkley seems to require.

this is the type of play that worries me about Barkley:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-I9cny_4ac&feature=relmfu

of course i only started really looking at him recently so it’s not like i’ve seen his body of work

by DCrez on Nov 26, 2011 4:18 PM EST up reply actions  

obviously there is more to a qb than arm

but for me personally, seeing RG3 throw 50yds when he is not even set is a big deal as to what his ceiling as a qb is, most especially considering we are not going to have an elite offensive line for years (assuming we have to get the players, they have to play together for awhile, and remain healthy).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OHSzpz-6TnA#t=830s

by DCrez on Nov 26, 2011 4:38 PM EST up reply actions  

I think it's hard to be sure who's going to be great

because the biggest skill by far is what I sometimes call “field vision” – the ability to find the open man in a fast moving situation. It is a mind-boggling problem, involving a lot of guys, some not your own, going all different directions. Like 3-D chess at warp speed. The skill is part learning, part pure instinct, or talent. And it is a skill not really used in college – a slower, different situation.
    The kind of thing I saw with Rex on the key interception agains Miami. Rex knew Gaffney was supposed to keep going, and the linebacker would follow him, leaving a clear lane to Hankerson. But Gaffney stopped and the linebacker was thus right in the lane to Gaffney. So the lane should have been open, and wasn’t, but Rex should have seen the LB in the split second before he threw the ball, and not thrown it. But he didn’t see the LB. A matter of not reacting in time. That kind of skill – very rare – is what makes a great QB. And it isn’t usually seen in college, and can only be taught up to a point. I doubt that anyone can accurately rate Luck, Barkley, Jones and Griffin on that skill, which is possibly the biggest necessity in a pro QB. Of course, there are other skills involved – arm strength, mobility, intelligence, etc.

by Donnio1234 on Nov 24, 2011 11:29 AM EST reply actions  

Your entirely right

I’ve been into qb scouting since I was a kid. Like actually reading about it and talking to people. From college tape you can see the throwing motion, arm strength, poise, touch. The obvious physical attributes and the minor stages of a qb developing. The NFL is so more fast paced and advanced though it is almost a crap shoot. One example: Rex grossman on our team, coming out of college he was considered can’t miss but slid to late first round due to height and off field issues. Some scouts said he was the most accurate college qb they had ever seen and were amazed by the touch on his passes and his ability to take smart risks. Even after his rookie year there were still scouts saying he would develop into an allpro. Bottom line is that Rex never mastered seeing the entire field and making the split second decisions which has led to turnover issues his whole career.

by CommunistKevin on Nov 24, 2011 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Another Academic Study: EB from the Junkies

Okay, but seriously, this week EB from the Junkies revealed the results of a little research he did. He took every QB taken in the 1st round since 1990 and classified them in one of the following categories:

1. Epic Bust: JaMarcus Russel Types
2. Game Manager, leads you to a lot of 8-8 type seasons
3. Good QB: Solid, not elite
4. Elite, HOF Type QB

Although EBs research is far from academic, his simple survey of 1st round QBs is useful and proved the following:

A. 6% of these QBs can be classified as Elite
B. 40% end up as Busts
C. 30% end up as Game Managers as best

What he took from this analysis is that, if you draft a QB, there is around a 70% chance that you will end up drafting a Game Manager at best and a Bust at worst.

In other words, if the Redskins draft a QB in the first round of the upcoming draft, in all likelihood, they will end up drafting a Bust or someone along the lines of Rex Grossman at best.

**To be clear: this is not meant to advocate skipping the QB position in the draft. The Redskins need a franchise QB, and you have to take a shot to fill the QB position despite the odds. This is simply a reminder to everyone not to get your hopes up that Barkley, Jones, or RGIII will somehow save this team when they are drafted.

I want the next Manning or Brady…I want the QB savior….but the chances of getting him are slim

by StephanHart on Nov 24, 2011 10:32 PM EST reply actions  

it's not completely random though

Good organizations evaluate better and make better choices. If we have the 2nd qb pick in the draft there will be a legit qb available, it’s on Shanny to find him. He moved up to grab Cutler at 11th after Zona assed out and chose Leinart. Hindsight is always 20/20, but you’d like to think it’s not random that Cutler is so superior to Leinart and that Zona should have known rather than that they were just unlucky that Leinart didnt amount to anything

by DCrez on Nov 25, 2011 8:46 AM EST up reply actions  

yes but there are other factors involved as well

Leinart and Young, both went to bigger schools, had far higher prestige and had far better college numbers. So they had more hype, obviously it wasn’t deserved but it shows you can’t always judge a QB, by his stats, W-L record, and media hype.

Also, Cutler got to sit most of the year, whereas Leinart was starting by week 2 and Young was starting by week 3. And while neither other team was horrible, Cutler probably had the most all-around talent (Cards had far better receivers but not near the running game, O-line or defense as the Broncos).

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 25, 2011 9:33 AM EST up reply actions  

but that's exactly the point- a good talent evaluator will account for schools, bright lights, etc

you should NEVER judge a qb by his media hype, why pay someone like Shanny $7mill/yr to care what Mel Kiper says? You end up with Jimmy Clausen that way, and it’s basically how Vinny drafted.

Again, there’s always hindsight, but Cutler was a great athlete with a terrific, accurate arm and clearly a bright guy. The people getting paid to make the decisions need to be good enough to see he was going to be better than Leinert.

Young is a little bit different case because he was so absurdly dominant in college, almost literally single-handedly winning the Championship himself. The risks were obvious with him but you could also see the potential of a “special” player if everything broke correctly and he did win games initially. Leinart? Really nothing special about him at any point, I just think it’s a failing on the ’Cards part to take him over Cutler rather than bad luck for the Cards

by DCrez on Nov 25, 2011 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

yeah but i think that is oversimplifying things

Dennis Green was one of the brightest offensive coaches in the last 20 years, and revitalized a number of QB careers. Yet he went with Leinart over Cutler. And while Vince Young did single-handily win the NC, his college numbers weren’t that great, and prior to that Junior year they were pretty average. And he was chosen by Jeff Fisher, one of the more successful coaches in the league. So it’s quite evident that Shanny could make the same mistake.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 25, 2011 11:52 AM EST up reply actions  

Young was not taken by Fisher. Young was taken by Texas native and owner Bud Adams.

When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.

by Jeff Bernard on Nov 26, 2011 9:57 AM EST up reply actions  

see i don't know if I buy that

why would Fisher Kowtow? He was highly respected around the league and could have gotten any job he wanted. He had a ton of power in personnel moves and if the Owner forced it on him he would have just left.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 28, 2011 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah but they were coming off a really bad year

and he would have gotten that money anywhere. I think he had some loyalty, but I think what it comes down to is he was duped like everyone else, that VY would be a stud QB.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 28, 2011 2:10 PM EST up reply actions  

because Bud Adams is an 85yr old billionaire who is part of the DNA of the league

and if he tells his GM or Coach to draft Vince Young their response is “Yes sir.” The guy signing the checks ALWAYS had the final say, period

by DCrez on Nov 28, 2011 2:32 PM EST up reply actions  

yes and if Jeff Fisher didn't agree he would have just quit (it has happened plenty of times before)

This wasn’t Norv Turner or Jim Zorn getting railroaded by an owner.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 28, 2011 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Bill parcels left th Patriots b/c Kraft overruled him

Jon Gruden with the Raiders, and Jimmy Johnson with the Cowboys ar some of the most recent examples

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 28, 2011 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Parcells is the only one of those who quit.

Johnson was forced out by Jones and Davis basically traded Gruden to Tampa

by DCrez on Nov 28, 2011 5:47 PM EST up reply actions  

Gruden wanted out of Oakland and Tampa came calling

It was a mutual divorce for Johnson but occurred bc of Jones interference

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 28, 2011 6:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know about that

They added 3 new starters along the O-line, Breaston, Hightower (who was their most effective back down the stretch) on offense. And in addition to a few starters, they had some other guys on defense who were backups before grow into a starting role (or change positions to a more effective role like A. Rolle). And of course the biggest change was a new coaching staff and defensive philosophy.

I’m not saying they reshaped the team, but obviously there were a number of differences since Warner struggled in both 2005 and in the starts that Leinart didn’t make in 2006. So it was more than just the difference in QB’s.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 25, 2011 11:42 AM EST up reply actions  

Cutler probably had the most all-around talent

You better look at this one again

Crying Lion

by Tiller56 on Nov 25, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions  

who do you think had more talent around him?

I’m not talking just receivers, but backs, linemen, and defense.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 25, 2011 3:39 PM EST up reply actions  

the defense has no bearing on Leinert's succes

he didnt need to win games to get the job, he just needed to show he was a legit NFL qb. He had Fitz and Boldin to throw too, that’s really as much as any qb could ask for to show his stuff regardless of the oline

by DCrez on Nov 26, 2011 1:04 PM EST up reply actions  

i couldn't care less about wins

but defense matters big time to how a young QB performs. If he had a good-great defense he’d have far better average starting field position. Also by playing in closer games or with more leads, it is far easier on a QB. If he constantly had to play down a couple of scores, it takes away the run game, and puts a ton more pressure on the QB.

Yes Boldin and Fitzgerald are fantastic, but not having a quality offensive line is far worse. Not to mention Cutler had Javon Walker and Rod Smith, so it’s not like he had two scrubs (also a rookie Brandon Marshall). Also while E. James is a big name, he was pretty awful, and wasn’t near the ground game that Cutler had with Tatum Bell and Mike Bell.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 26, 2011 11:31 PM EST up reply actions  

actually what happened is that Leinart sucks.

He had all-everything talent around him on offense at USC and it made him appear better than he really is. A better defense would not change that and it’s just as valid to argue that being down all the time gives the qb a chance to rack up easy yardage and garbage scores. The differenve between Cutler and Leinart is that Cutler is good and Leinart isnt, has nothing to do with their rookie year scenarios.

by DCrez on Nov 27, 2011 12:15 PM EST up reply actions  

yeah this isn't even close to being true
. A better defense would not change that and it’s just as valid to argue that being down all the time gives the qb a chance to rack up easy yardage and garbage scores.

especially considering he had no O-line so he was constantly under pressure.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 27, 2011 1:52 PM EST up reply actions  

he had two of the top wideouts in the entire NFL

and he had every single opportunity to show he was legit and couldnt do it because he’s not legit. The Cards defense is less than nothing in terms of judging whether Leinart could play or not.

And somehow a 35yr old Kurt Warner completed 64% of his passes with no o-line and under constant pressure while Leinart only managed 55% with the same personnel. And then he got worse in his 2nd year as revelations about his partying and lack of work ethic came to the fore.

He’s just not nearly as good as Cutler, sitting him his rookie year wouldnt have changed that, you don’t gain talent sitting on the bench

by DCrez on Nov 27, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

tell that to Kurt Warner

Warner was a veteran and knew how to read defenses, put the ball in tight windows and get rid of the ball quicker, that is why he was able to do more with the same talent around him. No rookie QB would have succeed in those conditions, not Young, not Cutler and obviously not Leinart.

The lack of an offensive line and running game is far worse for a rookie QB than having to extremely talented receivers. I don’t care if you put the Posse in their prime around a rookie QB, it won’t make a difference if he doesn’t have a line and ground attack. Do you think Cutler would have put up Warner numbers?? When he didn’t do that in Denver with more talent??

Yes Leinart might have always been a bust, but the central point is by starting him day one and putting him in a bad situation ensured that to be the case.

And yes you do gain talent on the bench (see Aaron Rodgers) as the vast majority of star quarterbacks developed for a couple years.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 27, 2011 3:04 PM EST up reply actions  

You cant assume that Rodgers had to sit the bench to be great.

That’s what you personally think, but for all anyone knows Rodgers would have been fine as a rookie starter and eventually become the same player he is today. Just because Brady sat a year doesnt mean that’s why he is great, in fact he is so good, it’s silly to assume it happened because he didnt play for a year.

The point being that because some successful qb’s have sat doesnt prove that sitting qb’s is how they become successful. Guys play early on in today’s league, no reason for us to run the team like it’s 1993.

And if we draft a qb with our top5 pick and he can’t cleanly beat out Rex Grossman….the guy is probably a bust and no amount of sitting will change it.

by DCrez on Nov 27, 2011 3:12 PM EST up reply actions  

just about every analyst and commentator has stated that Aaron Rodgers in 2008

was night and day compared to him in 2005. Now maybe he didn’t need 3 full years, but the fact is he needed the time to develop.

And it isn’t ‘some successful QB’s’ it is nearly all of them. Yes there are some notable exceptions, namely Peyton and Big Ben, but that is about it. Teams have been doing it the past few years, but it has led to far more poor QB’s (Vince Young, Leinart, Sanchez, Russel) than stars (Ryan…note: Stafford, Flacco and Bradford should not be in this group). And it isn’t running a team like it’s 1993, it is running a team wisely like based on what has worked (i.e. sitting QB’s).

Also it shouldn’t be Rex Grossman who is the litmus test, though he has outplayed Gabbert and would likely be better than Locker. So that just goes to show that it is very possible that Grossman would be better than a rookie QB. Now the Skins need to find a better stopgap, but the worst thing they can do is start a rookie.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 27, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions  

A lot of the success a QB is destined to have

comes between the ears. Yes, they need the natural ability too, but football intelligence, and the ability to adapt at the next level is what seperates the good from the bad.

The mega busts we have seen in the past have some things in common………they were lacking football intelligence(Russell, A. Smith, Leaf). Now, I’m not putting guys like Leinhart in this catagory yet, but you can see with guys like him, Young(even though he’s had some success), Campbell, etc., that they just didn’t have what it takes between the ears.

I look at this years class of QB’s, and I see guys with great physical talent, as well as guys who seem to get it from a football standpoint. You can tell Luck, Jones and Barkley are students of the game. They are leaders who work hard both on and off the field. Each guy is very humble, and each also happens to very spiritual in their faith(not that this is any indicator of the player they will become).

Crying Lion

by Tiller56 on Nov 25, 2011 10:24 AM EST reply actions  

I don't know

sure that is true for an Akili Smith, Ryan Leaf or Vince Young didn’t have it ‘between the ears’, but can you say the same about Tim Couch, David Carr, Joey Harrington etc.

Also does a guy like McNabb fully have it between the ears? The guy is an egomaniac and not what I’d call a student of the game. He had to be put in the right situation and coddled. Ditto for Vick and I’d make the same argument with a guy like Phillip Rivers.

I’m not saying the mental aspect isn’t important, but it isn’t the sole reason for why some guys are good-elite, and some guys are out of football within 5 years.

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 25, 2011 12:03 PM EST up reply actions  

Philip Rivers is one of the samrtest football players you'll see

he’s been that way since NC St. Very poor comparison. I’m also not talking about wonderlic scores here, I’m talking pure football IQ……………you know, like Ryan Mallett. He’s not the best tester you’ll see, but damn if that kid doesn’t know football, and keeps studying football.

Crying Lion

by Tiller56 on Nov 25, 2011 2:55 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Rivers isn't a leader like most top QB's he gets into it with his WR's, the opposing team and even officials

I would not call him the poster boy for mental stability. Imagine if Rivers started day one and struggled, he could have been a Leaf 2.0

Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com

by Steve Shoup on Nov 25, 2011 3:42 PM EST up reply actions  

Tiller

you love every qb coming out every year

by CommunistKevin on Nov 26, 2011 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

No he doesn't...

ask him his thoughts on Ryan Tannehill.

by The Agent C 83 on Nov 27, 2011 11:28 AM EST up reply actions  

ha

does he hate him? He is a little raw. It is not like he is going to be a high pick though

by CommunistKevin on Nov 27, 2011 12:29 PM EST up reply actions  

True that!

Look at the best QB’s in the NFL and that’s exactly what they ALL have in common.

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.

by GeoFly on Nov 27, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions  

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