Enough w/ Using 1st Two Picks on OLine!!!
by Copious 1 on Nov 15, 2011 3:26 PM EST
Email
PrintThe exclamations points will probably garner some pretty strong responses, but so be it. I did a post at the end of last year regarding O-Line and how they are build if you scan the different teams in the league. Outside of the Jets...NO team has all 1st round picks on their line, and I don't believe the Jets 2011 line has all 1st round picks either. See examples below of 2010 O-Line makeup of several teams:
With regards to O-Line, let's take a look at the New England Patriots O-Line. I think anyone (blogger, NFL analyst, player, etc.) would agree that if not Top 3 O-Line in the league, the Patriots are at least Top 10. Their line is made up as follows:
Matt Light (RT) - 2nd Round Pick
Logan Mankins (LG) - 1st Round (32nd Pick)
Dan Koppen (C)- 5th Round Pick
Dan Connolly (RG) - FA 2007
Sebastian Vollmer (RT) - 2nd Round Pick
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KANSAS CITY
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MIAMI
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BALTIMORE
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COLTS
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GIANTS
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However....As for QB
So...of the 32 NFL Starters in 2010
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DRAFT POSITION |
TOTAL |
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Top 10 |
12 |
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1st Round |
6 |
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2nd Round |
4 |
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3rd Round |
2 |
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4th Round |
2 |
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5th Round |
0 |
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6th Round |
3 |
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7th Round |
2 |
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Undrafted |
1 |
If 37% of current Franchise QB's (I use the term loosely for Alex Smith, Jason Campbell, and Vince Young remember this is 2010, it would increase for 2011) are Top 10 picks, then why not select one in the 2012 draft? There is much better talent in the Top 4-5 QB's in this years draft than last year. The goal is for the Redskins to NOT be selecting in the top 20 for a good long time. If this is to be the last year we select in the Top 10, then a QB is actually the best idea, even if you have to trade a pick or two (NOTE - A pick or two, not 5).
You can find several top notch or better than a current Redskin starter for the O-Line in the 2012 Free Agent Class (http://nfltraderumors.co/2011022012-nfl-free-agents/). But a franchise QB MUST be drafted, they don't typically make it to free agency. I believe Peyton Manning is a great example of a QB leading a pretty terrible team to the playoffs, but I don't see many elite O-Line leading a terrible QB to the playoffs.
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Yes but how many of those top 10 QB from pick 2-10 are any good? Also what percentage of those #1s are any good?
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
about 50%
I have my ship
And all her flags are a flyin'
She is all that I have left
And music is her name
QB's??
it is a lot lower than that
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I haven't read this whole thing yet, but can someone explain this to me.
Hypothesis: We shouldn’t draft OL with using out first two picks.
Evidence: The Patriots line
Am I missing something or does the Pats line not feature three 1st to 2nd rounders? And they drafted Nate Solder in the first this year.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
I count 3?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
he said 1st or 2nd rounders of which there are 3
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 15, 2011 5:18 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And the title of the article refers to our first TWO picks?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
The best part is this is evidence that we should draft a QB with our 1st pick even though, sticking with the Patriots, they drafted their all-time great QB in the 6th round.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 15, 2011 5:20 PM EST up reply actions
Haha. Ouch.
"By far the worst performers on the (Redskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
If barkley/jones are available when we draft, then you take them
I have my ship
And all her flags are a flyin'
She is all that I have left
And music is her name
What if Luck is gone, Jones is gone, and you have to pick between Kalil or Barkley?
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
barkley and take somebody like Zebrie Sanders in the second
I have my ship
And all her flags are a flyin'
She is all that I have left
And music is her name
I like Foles in the second if we can't get jones/barkley as well
Big kid with a strong arm.
I have my ship
And all her flags are a flyin'
She is all that I have left
And music is her name
and here's part of the problem. What is the difference between Tannehill and Barkley/Jones? Not that much, especially considering they will all have a further year to develop
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Tannehill recently converted from WR (the top WR on his team) to QB.
Barkley has experience as does Jones for years. Greater risk with Tannehill, significant upside though, but that makes him a low first high 2nd round pick versus a top guy.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
exactly
If Tannehill is this close to them now, imagine what he will be like a year from now.
The Redskins shouldn’t look to start any of these guys next year, so they should look to grab the guy who looks to be the best in 2013. And for me I really think that could be Tannehill, given the lesser talent around him (not bad, but not on Oklahoma/USC level) and the lost time while he was a WR.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Yes it's sarcastic
because I believe we need better from the QB position.
Name me the one position on our entire team, that we have lacked for 20 years?
We have had everything else:
Great CB’s
Great S
Great LB’s
Damn good D-linemen
Damn good OT’s
Damn good interior linemen
Good RB
Good TE
average WR’s
Way below average QB’s
Crying Lion
I don't think anyone is arguing here that QB isn't a need
so I don’t get the point.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Our line has been a major problem for the past decade. And we got pretty decent QB play from Brunell and Campbell
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
kind of disagree
The line was actually pretty good under Gibbs. They just got old under Zorn, and we have not addressed the problem in the last 6 years
I have my ship
And all her flags are a flyin'
She is all that I have left
And music is her name
Yeah but you don’t assemble rosters based on what you’ve had in the last twenty years. You win based on the roster you have now. What we have now is nothing.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 16, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
You understand that Steveo really doesn't like Tannehill all that much
it’s just the least evasive way for him to justify taking a first round linemen……which is what he ultimately wants.
Crying Lion
huh??
i actually like Tannehill quite a bit. Would I take him in the top 5? No, but I really do like him and think he has a bright future.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Where is Tiller to douse the fire on this comment?
Because I know it will happen.
by The Agent C 83 on Nov 15, 2011 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
i'm here bro
sick as a dog, but I’m here.
Take my comments with a grain of salt tonight. I’m on some serious RX cough med, and have just started my Z-Pac. Haven’t eaten solid food in two days, and the onlt thing I can put in my stomach, G2, and V8 Fusion, I keep shitting out.
Crying Lion
Sorry to hear that...
…but I figured you would jump all over the Tannehill supporters, because I know you are not a fan of his, lol.
I know how you feel, I had a similar illness about a week and a half ago. That time of the year, I guess. Keep hydrated, and find a good book to read (so you have something to occupy you as you shit out the sickness).
by The Agent C 83 on Nov 15, 2011 9:39 PM EST up reply actions
I'm one of those guys
who takes the laptop in the shitter with me. Some of my best thoughts come from there(lol).
Thanks for the well wishes.
Crying Lion
As for the Tannehill fans
I personally feel is is limited in a few key areas(arm strenght, accuracy, decision making). I’m scared to draft him because of past mistakes at guessing at QB’s. I don’t believe we can take that kind of risk this time around.
I don’t hate the kid at all, just don’t like him as a option for us. This is going to sound terrible saying this, after seeing the good year he’s putting together, but I view Tannehill as a poor man’s Andy Dalton.
Crying Lion
If the Redskins take Barkley they are dumb. You don’t learn anything about a guy when he is playing for absolutely nothing. I want to see how a guy performs on the big stage not how a guy plays out a meaningless season.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 15, 2011 5:21 PM EST up reply actions
a lot of good college qbs
didn’t play for much. Eli wasn’t on great teams at Ole Miss… Big Ben played in the MAC… Tom Brady played in obscurity in college….
Eli went 10-3 in the SEC against basically semi-pro teams. Roethlisberger went undefeated in the MAC and his team was top 10 in the AP poll. Brady is an anomaly so we will leave him out of the discussion. Roethlisberger or Eli would be taken over Barkely, Jones or any QB not named Luck if they were coming out this year.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 15, 2011 9:10 PM EST up reply actions
But Barkley's not playing for nothing
He is playing for pride and for a top draft slot. The guy could have bolted SC when he had the chance. he chose to not only stick it out but to take the lead and have the guys rally around him. He was the first sophmore in SC history to be name a team captain. He has the intangibles for sure.
Cut Brandon "Stabby" Banks. That is all.
by 64ShagginWagon on Nov 15, 2011 10:23 PM EST up reply actions
this isn't as much of a knock on him as it is Kiffin, but that lockerroom is apparently a mess
now I’m not sure if any one man could fix it, but it is happening on his watch so to speak.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Yeah but that pressure is not the same as the entire school, the entire city living and dying on your play at QB. The pressure from being 8-0 or competing for the National Championship is 100x greater that competing just for your draft position. The draft position pressure is there regardless.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 16, 2011 9:18 AM EST up reply actions
I'm not disagreeing with you at all
But my grandpa went to SC, my dad’s family is from the OC, and my sister lives there. The whole LA area is nuts for SC football. 9,000,00 is a lot of pressure for a 21 year old kid. Remember he started as a true freshman at 18.
Cut Brandon "Stabby" Banks. That is all.
by 64ShagginWagon on Nov 16, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
Talk about a reach
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
dont think hell come out
I have my ship
And all her flags are a flyin'
She is all that I have left
And music is her name
Look i appreciate the effort
but I don’t think it’s clear cut. For one it is only a look at 1 season, which is valuable but not comprehensive. Secondly, it does show that teams that invest multiple 1st and 2nd round picks on the Oline (it doesn’t have to be all 5) tend to do pretty well in that area.
Look at a team like the Panthers now even with former 1st rounder Jeff Otah out, and both of their starting guards out for the season, their line is pretty solid. Why because Jordan Gross (former 1st rounder) does a really good job. He’s not Pro Bowl level, but he’s right below that talent group. And Ryan Kalil (former 2nd rounder) is arguably the 2nd best center in the league behind Nick Mangold (and at least top 5). Having those two guys has been huge for their line, and if Otah was healthy it could be a top 10 unit.
The Skins unfortunately don’t even have one guy on the level of either Gross or Kalil, and that is the problem. Could the Redskins survive if Lichtensteiger and Chester were the 4th and 5th best linemen on the team? Absolutely, but unfortunately they are probably 2nd and 3rd, and even the top guy (TW) isn’t really any better.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
You got some facts wrong
Baltimore’s Offensive Line, Bryant McKinnie, Ben Grubbs, Matt Birk, Marshall Yanda, Michael Oher, has three 1st rounders (McKinnie, Grubbs, Oher), and with Yanda, 4 picks in the 1st 3 rounds. Colts are a poor example because there offensive line is horrible. They haven’t had a run game in years and Manning got thrashed last year because of them. Kansas City is also a pretty bad example, no one on that offensive line is exceptional by any means. Miami is a similar case, after Jake Long, that teams offensive line is little more than average. There is no real correlation between pick and success, as teams like the Falcons and Packers have many low round picks, but at the same time, the Falcons and the Packers still know that it is necessary to invest in the offensive line (Falcons picked Sam Baker in the 1st, Packers spent their last 2 firsts on the offensive line). Plain and simple, we don’t have OL talent minus Trent Williams and a TRULY healthy Jammal Brown. To get OL talent immediately, you draft high. I think we should get a QB 1st, but to say don’t get an OL 2nd is pointless. We could get a great guy in the 2nd pick (typically interior guys slide into later rounds). Never, ever underestimate the importance of an OL and underrate the need to draft early. The Skins need OL, and it would be smart to draft some, at least somewhat high.
Looking at 2010 roster
And to that point….McKinnie is proof of FA being a better way great way to acquire an O-Line in addition to the draft, but to burn what it likely a top 5 pick in the 1st round AND a top 5 pick in the second just to quickly improve the line is not necessary to the exclusion of the QB position.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
I will say
My fault about McKinnie. I quickly forgot about him not being drafted by them. No way do I want our top pick to be an OL, we have to get a QB there, but I still maintain an interior lineman in the 2nd will be great for the team.
No one is arguing against a 1st round QB at this point
we all agree it is needed, and I think pretty much everyone has the top 3 as Luck, Jones and Barkley, who would be exceptable picks in the first.
They’re are a few Tannehill stragglers around, but they will soon disappear as well.
Crying Lion
Not true
Plenty of people are arguing against taking a QB in the 1st round. Would be a terrible mistake unless Shananhan falls in love with someone and see something in one of these guys that i don’t. We are a terrible team and none of these guys other than Luck are difference makers. They could be solid pros but that is about their ceiling. We should trade back and pick up another pick or two if possible. Do you seriously think Jones or Barkley are giving us any extra wins in the foreseeable future?
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 15, 2011 8:52 PM EST up reply actions
I mean my god Reed Doughty is on the team, we are starting two 7th rounder on the O-line, our middle LB is basically in his last year or two, Kevin Barnes sees lots of playing time, Gaffney and something called Terrence Austin are currently are #1 wide outs, are NT(that we don’t even have) is undersized, Sean Locklear is on the team, our starting Safety has played about 15 snaps all freaking year, one of our CB has fallen off a cliff this year and the other is meh. Do you really think reaching, yes reaching, for Jones or Barkley is the smart play here?
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 15, 2011 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Jeff
you’re a smart guy. You tell me.
If you consider a team to be reaching on a prospect like Landry Jones(especially give the 2+ decade long drought we have had at the QB spot, to be reaching, then you have just personally lowered the expectations for the entire fan base on one comment.
I respect your opinion, but this is just wrong.
Crying Lion
Its not just me who considers that a reach. I have been looking at mock drafts and i have seen him going anywhere form 6 to 15. We will most likely be drafting 2 or 3. I am by no means an expert is QB scouting, i will freely admit that, but from what i have seen of Landry Jones he doesn’t scream instant difference maker franchise QB. Could he be a great hall of fame pro player, of course but i just am not overly impressed. We are terrible and with such a premium on QBs in the draft plenty of teams will want to move up in exchange for a few extra draft picks. Now with that being said if Shanny falls in love with any of these QBs i will take his word on it but from my vantage point it is just too risky.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 15, 2011 9:43 PM EST up reply actions
I'm just curious
what could Jones have done differently to change your opinion?
He’s a very humble guy, who is a great leader, and a man of faith. He has EVERY attribute you would look for in a franchise QB. He shattered records at OK, and is still going. He’s proven himself in the face of advirsity(on the road vs Fl. St. this year – and they are a top 10 defense in the country.
Finally, I think this needs to be pointed out; he’s a much better athlete than most people think.
Crying Lion
Don't forget Cam Newton was slated to us at the ten spot in January.
Ponder was projected to go in the 2nd round and Locker was a 20-25 pick range prospect. I doubt Jones and Barkley make it out of the top 5. If we took one of them top 5 no one would say we were reaching.
Cut Brandon "Stabby" Banks. That is all.
by 64ShagginWagon on Nov 16, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
This is something i just read about Jones. Sounds promising behind our line
Last, and probably most important, Jones looks like he needs another season with the Sooners. His inability in the face of pressure has been widely documented. That kind of pocket poise can be honed best in college against inferior competition. As Jones showed on Saturday against Texas A&M, he also has a propensity for overthrowing his receivers as well. What ends up as overthrows in college could become interceptions at the next level.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 15, 2011 9:48 PM EST up reply actions
Do you seriously think Jones or Barkley are giving us any extra wins in the foreseeable future?
yes, 100% yes
and I should have said no one of a reasonable sound mind.
Crying Lion
And then in 3 years
we could actually be good…………………………wow, think about that. Something we haven’t seen around here in a while.
But, we could always pass on yet another top prospect, trade back and draft Tannehill, and set ourselves back yet another decade.
Crying Lion
The list of QBs taken 2-10 in the last 20 years. Ugh
Locker
Gabbert
Ryan
Young
Leinart
Rivers
Leftwich
Harrington
McNabb
Akili Smith
Leaf
McNair
Collins
Dilfer
Mirer
Kingler
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 15, 2011 9:59 PM EST up reply actions
I think his point is there is a drop off from the 'top' QB
now the list of top overall guys isn’t the prettiest either, but it does have some studs, and a few more potential ones (Stafford, Bradford, Newton).
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 15, 2011 10:12 PM EST up reply actions
I can easily omit #1 picks because we are not picking #1. If we had the #1 pick i would advocate taking Luck without hesitation. The drop off from #1 overalls to those that “experts” consider top 10 is in hindsight disgusting.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 15, 2011 10:20 PM EST up reply actions
It's a crap shoot any way
but if i’m taking a chance, i’m going with a proven guy; not another project.
Crying Lion
it's easy to point to other teams
but lets look at this from a Redskins perspective. We have used one pick on a high QB in 20 years, and we got burnt.
But I can tell you, we have had our share of “projects” and “other peoples’ has beens” in DC.
JC was a project. Ramsey, big project.
Lets at least swing for the fences here, so there are no excuses.
Crying Lion
If you play the odds it is alot easier to find a probowl lineman in the second, third, or fourth rounds
I think if when we draft if one of the big three is there then you have to take him. Unless, you are offered a trade that is to good to pass up. Then you take the deal and you go for one of the second tier guys. And I mean like to first a second and another third type deal.
Cut Brandon "Stabby" Banks. That is all.
by 64ShagginWagon on Nov 15, 2011 10:42 PM EST up reply actions
okay but the point is most of these 'not project guys' end up as big time projects
some maybe weren’t handled properly (which I don’t know about you but I doubt Shanny will sit a guy for 1-2 years), and some were just overhyped.
There is no guarantee that Barkley or Jones won’t be worse than Campbell who at least established himself as a serviceable NFL starter. You can say QB is our biggest need, but you can’t say these guys aren’t ‘projects’ as well.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Luck, Jones, and Barkley to and extent
are not projects. Luck and Jones especially are pretty close to being can’t miss.
Crying Lion
Even though scouts are suggesting he not come out because he’s not ready?
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 16, 2011 9:19 AM EST up reply actions
If you really believe this is true(and by the way, it was ONE service that said this)
I’ll make a bet with you. You name whatever you like. I will put anything you agree on, that Jones enters in 2012.
Crying Lion
Of course he WILL come out the point is that some are suggesting that he SHOULDN’T come out.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 16, 2011 2:17 PM EST up reply actions
Here, fixed it for you
Of course he WILL come out the point is thatsomeone person is suggesting that he SHOULDN’T come out.
Crying Lion
there have been a couple scouts
maybe not as forceful as the statement above, but many think he’s at best the 3rd QB in the class.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Here's my question
If Luck is the only QB who’s NFL ready now, who do we have starting next year until our new Rookie is ready to take the reigns? IMO, Peyton wears blue and white at least long enough to school Luck. So who mentors our young QB? Any thoughts?
Sexy and Flynn
Cut Brandon "Stabby" Banks. That is all.
by 64ShagginWagon on Nov 16, 2011 9:18 PM EST up reply actions
Luck I agree is 'can't miss' which i hate saying because we've seen some of those guys miss badly before
but I really like Luck I think he is a day one starter and will have at least a great career if not an elite one.
Jones I really like but he’s def. not can’t miss. I think if he goes to a weak team (which he should) then he’ll need to sit a year. If he is handled properly then yes I can see him developing into a very good or great QB, but I won’t say he’s a sure thing.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 10:19 AM EST up reply actions
You forgot the 'elite' Mark Sanchez!!
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 15, 2011 10:13 PM EST up reply actions
Rex Grossman was a 1st round pick, and John Beck was a 2nd round pick- so I guess by your starting QB draft logic, we are set.
Draft position doesn’t mean everything for QB’s either (this is the same argument you are making against drafting O-linemen).
The truth is that we need several O-Linemen and a QB. And since you only get so many high draft picks, our team is essentially F’ed.
You're missing the point.
The Redskins have a need at QB.
There are at least 3-4 QB’s that are potential franchise guys in the 2012 draft.
There is a much greater possibility of being able to meet ones QB needs higher in the draft
The majority (not all [i.e. Jamarcu, Leaf, etc.]) of the starting QB’s this year and last were 1st round picks.
The point….we will have a high pick in the 1st and 2nd round this year. There is good logic that suggests using that 1st on on a QB. While the offensive line needs work, statistically and historically there is GREAT evidence that a solid line can be built through free agency, but a starting QB is more likely coming from a high 1st round draft pick.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
yes there are a number of 1st round starters, but that only tells part of the equation
you have to look at the history of these guys and what they are doing.
-It took Alex Smith and Jason Campbell years to develop into serviceable starters (though that was partially due to the revolving door of offensive coordinators)
-Aaron Rodgers got to sit for 3 years, Phillip Rivers 2 and Carson Palmer 1 (and Palmer was the top overall pick), a big part of the reason why they are successful is they were developed properly, will the Redskins give their top 5 QB that much time?
-Michael Vick had to go to jail for two years before he realized that maybe just maybe he should work on throwing the ball to his own team
-Tim Tebow has turned the Broncos offense into an option team
-Mark Sanchez ‘wins’ games, but his numbers are pretty bad for a top 5 overall pick and on a team loaded with talent. Also last year Vince Young was counted and he’s just seemingly gotten worse each year.
Yes there are those Franchise guys, but it is quite evident its a crap shoot, and for the Skins to have any hope of a guy being a franchise QB, they should look to sit him for about 2 years.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 10:35 AM EST up reply actions
+1, which is why you trade back, get Tannehill, develop him and get a FA QB while you fill other holes
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Because I believe that the QB we take should be allowed to sit for 1-2 years. Tannehill has a high ceiling, so it would benefit him to sit. By obtaining him while trading back, we could more easily fill the myriad of holes we have on this team
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 12:11 PM EST up reply actions
So let me get this straight......
you advocating taking the 4-5th best QB avaliable(for a 2-decade QB starved team), because he has a “high celing”.
Here is some food for thought:(this from scout’s Inc on Jones):
Clearly improved throughout the season last year and best football appears to be in front of him. "
This indicates to be a high celing. And, he’s much better than Tannehill now.
Crying Lion
this is more than a one need team, while there is a case to be made for Jones or Barkley
why is their not a case for Tannehill plus additional picks. Also who cares if Tannehill is the 4th or 5th best QB. That doesn’t mean that will be the case 3 or 4 years from now.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:50 PM EST up reply actions
Ok
if you are really ready to set our franchise back another decade……………
I know you don’t like QB’s, and you don’t focus in on them much, but remember, so much has changed in the game over the last dcade alone. Average QB’s are not going to cut it anymore.
Please, go watch the Ok/T A&M game, and tell me your STILL alright with Tannehill.
Crying Lion
how would that set the franchise back another decade??
I’ve watched that game and I like that Tannehill didn’t give up despite an obvious talent imbalance. It wasn’t a pretty game but i like seeing QB’s being tested.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Don't worry we'll play in at least 3 domes next year.
And we don’t play in Chicago. So we should be good.
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Anything else BESIDES the "high celing"
maybe some intangibles………..how he could fit into our offense……………good traits he has…..etc…???
Crying Lion
mobility, ability to throw on the move, good accuracy, plays in a pro style offense
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
A&M came into the season highly ranked
and they happen to have a very talented O-Line. Now, everythig they accomplished this season was going to hinge on Tannehill…….make no buts about it.
He has a 5-5 record, and not one signature win on his resume this season. His completion % dropped(you yourself, when talking to me earlier about Jones, said you wanted to see improvement the following year from your QB), His YPA is the same. His overall QB rating dropped. His TD-to-INT ratio is not at all impressive – 23-11. Hell, he even ran for more yards last year.
Where is the improvement? If anything, he has regressed.
Preseason AP top 25 poll:
http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6879862/oklahoma-sooners-no-1-ap-preseason-top-25-college-football-poll
Crying Lion
he's throwing the ball a lot better on the move, and making better decisions
he’s not perfect, but I’ve really liked what i’ve seen from him. A big factor in his completion % dropping is the number of dropped balls from his receivers. I’ve watched just about every game of his (and Jones and Barkley as well) and he’s had far more dropped balls.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
OH.......
just the same as I said about Locker last year……….wow, enlightening isn’t it?
So that’s all your going to ay about that??
That’s bad man.
Crying Lion
Except Tannehills numbers are still better
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 5:43 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i don't know that i'm right??
haha seriously i don’t get your point
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
ummm... Locker hasn't played
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
Which one of these World Beaters are you suggesting we take to lead the team and mentor our young Tannehill?
Richard Bartel – ARI®
Chris Redman ATL
Jake Delhomme – CLE
Kyle Orton – DEN
Brady Quinn – DEN
Shaun Hill – DET
Matt Flynn – GB
Tyler Palko – KC®
Chad Henne – MIA
Brian Hoyer – NE®
Chase Daniel – NO®
Sage Rosenfels – NYG
Mark Brunell – NYJ
Kevin O’Connell – NYJ®
Charlie Batch – PIT
Byron Leftwich – PIT
Charlie Whitehurst – SEA
David Carr – SF
A.J. Feeley – STL
Josh Johnson – TB
Vince Young – ten
Redskins @LandryJones2012
haha
The only guy who looks decent is Flynn, but he’s going to want a starting gig. If we signed Flynn, he’d be our starter for 5 years, because he’s far better than Tannehill.
Crying Lion
Thats fine...I would love to get Flynn and Tannehill...and if they both develop into starters, you trade one of them
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 12:39 PM EST up reply actions
exactly
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Funny that you mocked Barkley to the Skins
yet your doing everything you can, to yet again, promote Tannehill.
2 decades, and some people are still willing to settle
Crying Lion
you say you don't want the 4th best QB, but the 3rd is magically better?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Your premise that the Redskins have had bad QB play for 20 years is wholly incorrect
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 4:12 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I already did above. Campbell and Brunnell provided mostly average QB play.
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Anytime you cite Campbell, your digging your own grave
That’s actually really bad you had to go there.
Another question……..Are you happy with average?
Crying Lion
It's not bad I went there...it's fact. And no, I'm not happy with average. I was simply stating that your assertion was wrong. As for average QB play, it comes from guys drafted all over the board
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Again
you cited 2 QB’s over 20 years, and none were with the team more than 4 years…………………yeah, I think your pretty wrong here.
Anyways, have fun arguing with yourself over this one!
Crying Lion
I cited 2 over the past 8 years. Maybe throw Brad Johnson in there, who they shouldn't have rid themselves of
Your assertion is that the Redskins have had horrible QB play for 20 years, which is untrue.
Also, you treat the situation as if the Redskins have completely ignored the QB position in the First Round of the Draft over the past two decades, which is also untrue.
The Redskins haven’t had great QB play over the past 20 years, true, but it isn’t for a lack of effort to find a franchise QB. And this draft can’t solely rest on finding one great QB, not with the holes this team has.
Also, don’t forget that two of the Redskins best QB’s of the modern era were Joe Theisman and Mark Rypien, taken in the 4th and 6th rounds of the draft respectively.
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 4:37 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Ponder and Dalton were the 4th and 5th best QB's last year and they are def better than Locker and Gabbert
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
more so than Gabbert, and at least he is NFL ready unlike Locker
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I would take Flynn in FA, move back and pickup another 2 picks over Jones or Barkley 10 times out of 10.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 16, 2011 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
you realize we'd have to sign one or more of these guys if we draft Barkley or Jones right?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
+1 We will most likely need a FA QB anyway, so trading back, getting Tannehill along with picks, and then letting him sit behind a FA QB, makes a lot of sense
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
yeah exactly
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
No everyone is in fantasy land that one of these rookies will start and lead us to the playoffs year one.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 16, 2011 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
Of your list:
Flynn, Orton, Hill, all work for me. Not to mention Drew Stanton and Caleb Hanie.
Just curious but where do you think QB’s come from, b/c at one point an time, Trent Green, Rich Gannon, Brad Johnson, Kurt Warner, Matt Hasselbeck, Mark Brunell etc. were on lists just like this.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
Back to you....where do the MAJORITY of FRANCHISE QB's come from?
1. High in the Draft?
2. “Lists Like This” – Free Agency?
3. You draft offensive linemen and then one of the converts to QB?
4. Trade – But even if you trade for a guy where did he come from originally?
Kurt Warner is an amazing once in a lifetime story.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
by Copious 1 on Nov 16, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Most of ALL GOOD PLAYERS come from the top of the draft
And the Redskins need good players everywhere
by StephanHart on Nov 16, 2011 12:48 PM EST up reply actions
That statement may be false.
Not going to do the research, but statistics and probability suggest that with the abundance of players in rounds 3-7 vs. rounds 1&2 and the fact that 32 teams rosters consist of 53 players, there is no way MOST good players are simply found in rounds 1 & 2. Even from the lines listed above, most offensive linemen are found in the later rounds.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
by Copious 1 on Nov 16, 2011 12:55 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
yes but look at the best linemen listed above and most of them are 1st and 2nd rounders
there is a difference between starting and being good
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
What?
My point is at one point and time all the QB’s I mentioned some of whom are Franchise guys and everyone better than your Joe Flacco’s and Matt Ryans (and yes better than Ryan, b/c he’s not as great as people make him out to be), were considered afterthoughts.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:52 PM EST up reply actions
But that is a small sample size of all of the current 32 NFL starters.
If you are gambling do you bet on the 32% chance of winning or the 10% chance of winning? You argument is a fair point, all I’m saying is that I’m taking the 32% chance if I am a GM.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
i don't get where the percentages come in
and actually i’m not just looking at current starters. That is my entire point recent history has shown that you can find plenty of great playoff caliber QB’s later, they just need to be developed properly.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
ha 3 ex redskins on this list if you include JC
I have my ship
And all her flags are a flyin'
She is all that I have left
And music is her name
Have never argues against the need to sit and learn
Besides…Shanahan has never started a rookie QB. However, I do not believe that any rookie QB drafted will not sit for a whole year with the Skins. Recent history suggests that with the current state of the league and passing it is almost necessary to get your best passer n the field ASAP (i.e. – Bradford, Stafford, Sanchez, Freeman, Ryan, Flacco) and I would put Jones, Luck, and Barkley in the same class as those guys.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
yeah well that doesn't always workout too well
Look at Mark Sanchez (he’s awful, simply put, 3 years in the same system with top talent around him and he can’t complete 60% of his passes), Blaine Gabbert, Tim Tebow etc.
Also look at Stafford and Bradford, look at how much injury issues are plaguing their careers and keeping their team’s down.
Luck is the only one who can start next year, unless you don’t want Barkley or Jones to ever develop into anything more than good QB’s.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:45 PM EST up reply actions
I didn't miss the point... I've been calling for O-linemen in early rounds for a decade, and the fact that we were so delinquent in that is why we are doomed this season and at a minimum next season too.
Heck, if we drafted Aaron Rodgers this year, he’d still blow behind our O-line especially with its lack of ability to generate a run-game. Our O-line has been our major problem for the last decade.
Obviously we need a QB, I am not contesting that. We have a LOT of needs. And not enough picks to fill them (yes, even with trading back). This is a clusterf*** of a franchise which cannot be saved or turned around as quickly as you would like to dream.
by preppiejack on Nov 16, 2011 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
Also note that you start FIVE O-linemen and only ONE QB...
On our roster we have:
0 / 1 QBs of the future
1-2 / 5 O-linemen, and that is HIGHLY questionable (not to mention the lack of OL depth)
by preppiejack on Nov 16, 2011 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
My basic point is this
Great O-Line’s consist of what? The majority of the are FA’s, late picks, or undrafted free agents, sprinkled with 1st and 2nd round picks.
Great QB’s are? Typically 1st round high draft picks
You chose a perfect example. Aaron Rodgers does not play behind an elite offensive line. His mobility helps to make him as dangerous as he is. In addition, Green Bay has NO running game, maybe less than the Redskins. But they have sick WR’s AND…..Aaron Rodgers. Colts had terrible O-Line, BUT…Peyton Manning.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
Aaron Rodgers also had 3 years to learn how to be a quarterback, that can't be stressed enough
no rookie is going to come in and do that. Also the Packers o-line isn’t great, but they still invested 2 straight 1st rounders, and have Clifton, Sitton and Wells.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:47 PM EST up reply actions
The Redskins....
Can do whatever they want with their draft picks once they start making and playoffs and winning super bowls regularly, which is why Baltimore, New England, Packers (now), Colts, Steelers, Chargers, etc. invest their early picks heavily in the Offensive lines. However, when you are Detroit, Miami, Redskins, Browns, Rams, etc. you are looking at QB’s after you get a LT in place.
(DISCLAIMER – They can and will do whatever they want now….lol)
Redskins @LandryJones2012
we don't really have an LT in place, and even if Trent was Samuels 2.0, you need more than one lineman
Jones and Barkley aren’t going to be great overnight, they def. aren’t that good. They will both need time is the point.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 16, 2011 12:54 PM EST up reply actions
Have you watched them play?
They are both significantly better than Andy Dalton who is starting in the league at this time. We went 3-0 with Rex Grossman, will pick up more talent in the 2012 draft and free agency, and have youth that is being seasoned as we speak. Jones/Barkley > Rex (who went 3-0) + Beck (0-4).
Redskins @LandryJones2012
Rex went 2-1....then went 3-1 while almost allowing a comeback by the Rams with a terrible INT thrown to Laurenitus
Looked exactly like the pickle thrown to Carlos Dansby in the last game against Miami
i've watched just about every game of Jones and Barkley of the last two seasons
I don’t know if I’d say Barkley/Jones are that much better than Dalton. Dalton had the ability to step in from day one which is HIGHLY rare. He might not have the strongest arm, but he’s incredibly cerebral back there.
They problem is you are comparing these QB’s to Rex/Beck which isn’t fair, b/c just about every team’s backup is better than our starting QB.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Lets look at those teams you mentioned and when they took QBs and how good they were as a TEAM. Baltimore was already perennial playoff team with a SB victory in 2001. New England got Brady in the 6th round. Packers were in the NFC championship 2 years before they took Rodgers and had a HOF QB. Steelers were in AFC championship 2 years before taking Big Ben. Chargers were 8-8 the year before taking Rivers and went to the playoffs with Drew Brees in Rivers rookie year. Does any of those scenarios sound like the Redskins.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 16, 2011 2:26 PM EST up reply actions
No
.
Does any of those scenarios sound like the Redskins.
But do you know what does?…………….Lets trade back, get another middle of the pack, average QB, with what some people view as “upside”, and try this experiment all over again
.
Crying Lion
which would apply very nicely to the idea that top 10 QB's are the be all, end all and that you can start them right away
both of those are proven to be well false
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Reguardless if they start right away or not
I’ll take the better prospect anyday over the “project”
Crying Lion
56% of the current NFL starters were 1st round picks.
Which means….none were “developmental guys” other than Rodgers (which is not really a fair statement). If you have to gamble on a QB because you need a franchise guy….a Top 5 pick is better than a 2nd or 3rd round “project.”
4 others were FA’s
4 were trades (rough estimate)
I’ll take my QB via a high draft pick thanks. They are not the be all end ell, but by the percentages it’s a better gamble than a 2nd round pick.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
But did you read SteveOs comments earlier?
Where he named top flight QB’s such as Rodgers, RIvers, Brady, Palmer, etc who were afforded to sit and wait a few years before playing?
Hold on?!?!?!
We’ve traded back to get more picks in the draft to build the roster instead of going for one player?!??!?! When was this???
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 16, 2011 7:06 PM EST up reply actions
April 2011
It was pretty sweet.
Cut Brandon "Stabby" Banks. That is all.
by 64ShagginWagon on Nov 16, 2011 9:25 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly
Once in the last 20 years and arguably are smartest draft in recent memory. Hardly groundhog day.
When Gaffney drops the ball I blame Kyle. When Jammal Brown doesn't block I blame Kyle. When Barnes dives out a guys ankles and misses I blame Kyle.
by Jeff Bernard on Nov 16, 2011 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
a 5-11 record may put us out of contention for Jones or Barkley
If the ‘Skins end up at 5-11 (could end up beating Seattle, Vikings, or Eagles), we could very well miss out on Jones/Barkley/ Griffin. And even if Griffin is on the board, do we really draft him with the 6th or 7th overall pick? What are our best options then? Try to trade up? Hope he can find a QB in the 2nd or 3rd? Find a reliable veteran. More and more I think about, I find it hard to want this team to win any more games this season.
I have my ship
And all her flags are a flyin'
She is all that I have left
And music is her name
A lot of hypotheticals there. A lot of people are also forgetting that FA will play a role in how teams draft.
Unlike last year
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
Twitter: @RVAparks Check it out for the latest Redskins news and opinions
We're not winning 5 games.
"By far the worst performers on the (Redskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
We couldn't beat the Eagles at home. No way we beat them at the Linc
Ans we never fare well going to Seattle. Also the Vikes have AP running the ball. We no do so good against the run.
Cut Brandon "Stabby" Banks. That is all.
by 64ShagginWagon on Nov 16, 2011 9:27 PM EST up reply actions
We're stuck needing to draft a QB with the 1st pick. But the 2nd pick HAS to be OL
and ideally we acquire another 2nd and use that on OL also – or another area of massive need.
Regardless of what we do with the first pick in 2012, in 10 years we have only drafted 3 linemen in the first three rounds, and two of those were mediocre/bad players in the third round.
As long as we keep ignoring the OL in the draft, we will not be good.
It’s pretty simple.
"By far the worst performers on the (Redskins) are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Guys
wanted to apologize for being snippy with people today. I’m as sick as a dog, my wife hates me, I haven’t eaten in days, and I look like a Wookie due to lack of shaving.
It is not, and should not be an excuse however, so please accept my apologies.
Crying Lion
No one can tell the difference. You are typically rather ornery, but I love it.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
hope you're feeling better but
have you vomited in your underwear when you had to take a dump yet? Tht is when you know you are really sick.
Just say NO! to Rex Grossman.
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