A Look at All 9 Sacks by the Bills Against the Redskins
by UkRedskin on Oct 31, 2011 11:06 PM EDT
in Redskins Analysis
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PrintApologies in advance for what you're about to read. But I couldn't think of anything else to breakdown, so I'm going to take a look at all 9 sacks. Going into this game, the Bills had a team total of just two four sacks, and somehow left the game with 13 team sacks. Was this down to good defense, or poor protection? Lets have a look.
Sack No.1:
John Beck is rolling out to his left on a play-action bootleg. One of the big reasons people wanted Beck over Grossman was because of his mobility which allowed us to run more plays like this. But let's not get into that...
Beck back-pedals to try and buy time, but by this point, he needs to make a decision. He should throw it away or if he must try and make a play, he should continue the bootleg and run to the outside. But instead, he attempts to run up the middle into the crowd of defenders closing in on him... god knows why... Sack No.1 is on Beck.
Sack No.2:
Bills are giving us a taste of our own medicine here, and running a Cover Zero defense, bringing one more man than we can block. The Oline matches up man-to-man with each Bills defender in the big circle. Now Beck can slide the protection to one side to try and slow down the edge player on one side, and let Roy Helu try and pick up the man on the other. In this case, the protection slides to the right, and Helu goes to the left.
The Oline does a good enough job of slowing down the rush to the right. Beck has the throw he wants, to Fred Davis on a quick out, but Helu doesn't block the man on the far side. Now there are a few possible reasons for this. One possibility could be that Beck didn't realise it was Cover Zero and didn't see/think that one blitzer was coming and didn't alert anyone to him. Another could be that Helu was assigned to pick him up, and failed to do so. But what I think is most likely, and this is just my opinion, is that the Bills defender was on a check blitz (where he was meant to cover the RB if he came out of the backfield to his side, but otherwise blitz) and just broke the coverage in pursuit of the QB, realising that Beck was looking at the other side of the field. In any case, I wouldn't put this one down on the Oline either.
Sack No.3:
The Bills are only rushing 4 on this 3rd and 7 play. They use a "TEX" rush on the far side of the line. This is where the defensive tackle (T) and the defensive end (E) effectively cross over each other and rush from the other persons position, making an "X" pattern. So the Tackle and the End make an X, hence the term TEX.
The defensive end on the near side of the picture gets an edge on LT Sean Locklear. Beck needs to sense this pressure and step up to help Locklear make the adjustment, or he needs to get rid of the ball quickly either to Gaffney if he thinks he can fit it in there or preferably to Helu on his checkdown route. Beck does none of the above.
Beck doesn't feel the pressure from his blindside until the defender actually lays a hand on him. At that point, he decides to tuck the ball and run, But Jammal Brown can no longer hold his one-on-one block on Marcell Dareus, who eventually chases down Beck for the sack. Hard to put this one on the Oline. Sure Locklear could have done a better job on the protection and Brown might have been able to hold his block a little longer but, in my opinion, they gave Beck enough time to make a decision. He should have got that ball out at the top of his drop, checked it down, or tucked it and run earlier than he did. So for Sack No.3 I'm putting it on Beck, although the Tackles could have perhaps helped out more.
Sack No.4:
This is a really nice play call (despite what some of you may think about Kyle Shanahan). Jabar Gaffeny runs a clearing route to vacate the space behind him. Terrence Austin and Fred Davis are both running quick outs, and then Niles Paul at the bottom of this picture is running a quick comeback route. On 2nd and 3 with 1:29 left in the half, you just want to get a quick completion for a first down, then get out of bounds to stop the clock. This play is designed to do that perfectly. If Austin is covered you have Davis running the same route a few yards behind him; then if all else fails Paul is on the quick comeback on the other side and he could potentially catch and work his way out of bounds. Also a quick note, Brown and Locklear are on cut-blocks, to get their defenders to the ground, or at least wide away from the guards. This allows Beck throwing lanes on either side so the ball wont get batted down at the line.
Beck checks Paul's route first before moving over the Austin and Davis. Austin could potentially be open with a good throw, but Fred Davis is WIDE open, here's a better look.
I can see why he didn't throw to Austin from this camera angle. The cut block from Brown managed to push the defender wide, but if Beck throws to Austin the defender can easily bat it down. However, the cut block from Brown has opened up a perfect throwing lane for Beck to hit Davis. The only reason I can think he didn't throw it was because he might have thought the DT circled could bat it down. Even so, if you look at that DT, he's looking away from the QB, so wouldn't even know to put his hands up.
Beck goes back to check Paul, but by that time Will Montgomery has lost his one-on-one block and the DT makes the sack, and even if he hadn't the DE was closing down pretty quickly. Sack No.4 on Beck.
Sack No.5:
In the shotgun, 5 WR set. A rarity for the Redskins. You might think a slightly odd call given that we had already allowed 4 sacks and are still playing back-ups at three Oline positions. However, I'm assuming that they had seen on the sidelines that most of the sacks up to this point weren't really on the Oline.
The DE gets a good jump off the snap, but Locklear gets a really good punch on him to knock him of balance slightly and slow him down.
The DE recovers well and gets an advantage on Locklear, who actually recovers well and gets another good punch in. But Beck feels pressure and gets happy feet having already been sacked 4 times and had been hit many more. He instantly makes the decision to tuck and run, attempting to escape between Brown and Chris Chester.
Montgomery and center Erik Cook fail to hold their block on the DT, and the DE working on Brown realises that Beck is trying to run. Beck ends up getting squashed between all of these lineman and is eventually brought down for sack number 5.
Sack No.6:
We have a bunch trips formation at the bottom side of the picture. Niles Paul is running a crossing route at the top of the screen. Another 4 man rush from the Bills.
At the top of Beck's drop, he's focused on the downfield target, despite Paul open on the crossing route, and Roy Helu having space on his route from the backfield.
Beck takes his first "hitch", which is when a QB takes a slight step up in the pocket to reset his mechanics and get better timing on his throws. A lot of timing throws will have a QB take a 5 or a 7 step drop with a hitch to buy the WR a little more time to get into his break and get open. Beck still has his eyes on the downfield target.
Beck takes a second hitch, still aiming downfield. Normally when you see a QB take a second hitch, you know something is off and he's waiting for someone to get open. However, Beck never looks at Paul right in front of him, practically screaming for the ball. Meanwhile, the DE has beaten Locklear's block and sets course for Beck.
Beck takes a third hitch, even with a defender closing down on him fast. He's still looking downfield and only now starts to wind up to throw. It's much too late and the DE gets the sack. You could put this one on Locklear for not give Beck enough time to throw deep, or even the WR's for not getting open. But surprise, surprise I'm putting sack number 6 on Beck. He took much too long to throw, locked in on downfield targets and never even attempted to go through progressions despite Paul being wide open in the middle of the field right in front of him.
Sack No.7:
4th and 4, desperately trying to mount a comeback. Bills run another TEX stun, on the left side of our Oline this time. Another 4 man rush.
At the top of Beck's drop you can see Montgomery only just getting off the block on the tackle before shifting to the end.
Beck winds up to make the throw, but I'm assuming he see's Davis in tight coverage (but I couldn't see what Gaffney's route was off-screen). So he tucks it and attempts to run for the 1st down.
Montgomery cant hold off the push from the DE, who forces pressure up the middle and sticks out an arm to slow down Beck's escape from the pocket. The two DT's then managed to disengage their blocks and catch up Beck after he gets slowed down. Sack seven is just about the only one I can put on the Oline so far. Montgomery in particular needed to leave the DT on the TEX stun earlier and get onto the DE quicker to stop the momentum pushing him back into Beck.
Sack No.8:
Yet another 4 man rush from the Bills. We have 3 WRs, a TE and a RB.
Beck panics at the top of his drop, and the only reason I can think of is that he has already had 7 sacks and is weary of the pressure. So he instantly scrambles and rolls to his right, despite having a clean pocket.
Beck gets to the point where he needs to make a decision. He can try and hit Davis, he could try and scramble for the first down, or he could just throw it away. Instead, he stops, attempts to break a tackle by a big Bills DE and fails. Sack 8 on, you guessed it, Beck.
Sack 9:
The Bills run a couple of the cross stunts, this time between the DT's and the ILB's. Helu stays in to block so we have enough men to cover the blitz one-on-one.
I've marked in red who each blocker should have blocked. But this is a clever stun by the Bills. Chester is naturally drawn in to the DT while Cook is drawn to the other DT on his left. Montgomery helps out Cook, meaning our interior 3 Olineman are occupied by two Dlinemen, allowing the LB a free run at Beck. Chester needed to slide to the right to take the LB, Cook needed to slide right to take Chester's DT block, and Montgomery needed to take on the other DT on his own. Helu could potentially have come across to block the free runner, but he has another person to worry about, as you'll see in the next frame.
Cook ends up not blocking anyone, and the free runner wraps up Beck. This shows you better how I thought we should have blocked it. Chester needed to move onto the free runner, and Cook should have been on Chester's block. This is the second sack I put on the Oline.
So while the Oline was far from great, I think Beck was responsible for the majority of the sacks. It goes to show that while having an Oline can help a QB, a QB can also help an Oline. For all those people saying we can't draft a QB this year because the Oline can't protect him, I think this shows that even a lot of the back up Oline can hold protection long enough for a QB to get a throw off. The only problem is having a set of receivers that are good enough to get open quickly.
The other problem to take a quick note from is that if team's can constantly force pressure from just 4 man rushes, they can just drop 7 men back into coverage. No matter how good WR's are, they will struggle to get open when there is 7 men are in coverage.
What do you guys think? Am I being harsh on Beck and does the Oline need to step up? Or does Beck need to get the ball out quicker?
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Sack #4
I would say that the reason Beck doesn’t throw the ball to a “wide open Fred Davis” is that he misreads the coverage. He believes it to be a zone in which the Bill defender (can’t make out who it is) who you say is covering Austin is actually sitting in a zone right there. You draw a perfect arrow to show that Beck sees that defender.
In Becks mind, the wide open throw to Fred Davis looks like it has a defender in perfect position to intercept that pass. Beck sees that dropping defender will only have to turn his head to break up/pick the ball.
It is still on Beck because he misreads the zone in which the OLB is covering but there is a reason he doesn’t throw the ball beyond the possibility of a batted ball by the Dline.
Also, just for editing purposes, at one point you say Hele instead of Helu.
Good points and good spot.
Edited the Helu thing, thanks for that.
As for the zone coverage, Beck only has to check Austin’s route to see that the defender has his hips turned towards Austin and his focus is on him. The design of the play is that if it is zone coverage, Austin pulls the focus of the defender away from Davis. Sure the defender could have noticed Beck throw the ball to Davis and jumped it, its entirely possible, but for me, because the defender’s hips are turned and his foucs is on Austin, the QB should be able to fit it in to Davis who has the advantage to go get the ball if he has to compete for the catch.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
One other thing I take away from this...
Niles Paul should be pissed…two sacks (number 3 and 6) on Beck that could’ve been first down throws to Paul.
Number 3 is a little debateable, but number 6…wow, Niles was so egregiously wide open it is not even funny.
I really like Niles Paul
He’s a very very good blocking receiver, and he runs decent routes. If we can get Hankerson to come along, and Paul/Austin to continue to develop, we have potentially 3 nice receivers there.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
Problems
Why haven’t these rookies been more integral to the game plan? Sure we’ve seen Hankerson screw up a route or two causing a turn over, but that might just be nerves. Keeping these guys that we’ve spent the future on off the field will not help the team.
I think that it is clear.
Beck has an extremely low football IQ, and can NOT read a defense to save his life (and it just might kill him). On one of the sacks why would he slide the protection to the same side that Helu is on ? Asking a rookie to pick up a block across the face of the QB makes no sense. We are not in a Tebow situation there is nothing wrong with going back to Rex.
The Rod has spoken
by Rodskin on Nov 1, 2011 12:38 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
pshh yea. thats what i had been saying all along when the beck/rex debate came into the picture
while rex is a turnover machine, he throws INT’s while moving the ball DOWN THE FIELD. so the INT he throws essentially takes the place of a punt in a sense. while its not optimal, its better for the team than this sort of thing.
those sacks are drive killers and force punts. of all the things grossman does, he DOES find the open reciever by moving through his progressions quickly(sometimes too quickly). he WOULD have found paul on that play.
the choice between beck and grossman is like having to choose between death by fire and death by drowning. you dont want either but the drowning somehow seems more appealing.
by mrhinton on Nov 1, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
we're just misunderstood
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not only that
Only about half his picks can be really faulted on rex. Up until the 4 turnover debacle he’d only thrown 2 picks that were on Rex, the others were on WRs tipping the ball (Armstrong tipped up another one this past game that didn’t turn into a pick fortunately) or WRs running the wrong route. I never did look at his last game to see analyze what happened with those ints.
by snowburnt on Nov 1, 2011 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
my thoughts
exactly. Very eye-opening and damning evidence against Beck’s football ‘gameday’ IQ. Even when he decided to run, where he did was very questionable. #1, 5, 8 GO LEFT. #7, GO RIGHT. i.e. go where we have more blockers and open space. Then again, easy to say because i’m an arm chair QB but I still think all this evidence shows how poorly he is reading ‘live’ action.
"If you want money, go to the bank. If you want bread, go to the bakery. If you want goals, go to the net." - Brooks Laich
Love the break down.
I kept thinking during the game that he was holding the ball to long. Not just the sacks but the whole game. Also he started to get happy feet which caused some piss poor throws.
I live in Utah right now and I saw Beck a ton when he played at BYU. He is a decent QB if he has a good Oline, a good RB or two, and a couple of WRs. He played against okay defenses but he never really set the world on fire. People around here were a little surprised when he was drafted that high. I think he would be a good manager/ stop gap if every other part of the team is in healthy, working order. Otherwise we end up with what we have. Same as with the Dolphins a few years ago.
good job UK
And the throws were not delivered well in other cases…
the moral of the story….time for a new QB
unfortuantely
the dolphins and colts are doing that and the Broncos just started to…they were so scared they’d win with orton they put tebow in.
Great job
Amazing breakdown and literally hurts my head to try and understand just how incompetent Beck is.
Your point is absolutely well-needed in the discussion and well-taken — a good quarterback negates some of those sacks because he doesn’t panic, goes through his progressions faster, and makes quicker/better decisions.
It’s tough to pin 7 sacks on Beck alone, but you certainly can say he was at least 50% responsible for the astronomical sack total. Having the left side of the line out doesn’t help either, and Erik Cook is clearly still learning the ropes. But it’s more clear than ever that we need a QB at the top of the draft. I think our entire team will look different with one obvious personnel move— even the maligned receivers will start catching passes because they’ll have someone to throw to them, and the o-line will be able to get 2-3 seconds for a decent QB with any mobility whatsoever.
Did anyone else almost go into seizures when the replays had the scoarboard behind the endzone in them?
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Ha! Yes.
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
It was pretty brutal
Editor at Hogs Haven - Redskins Blog
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The first time I saw it I thought it literally was some insane flashing ad. Then I just realized it was the scoreboard with a different refresh rate being caught on camera.
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
I went insane watching the plays and playcalling live
The replays just made me realize the insanity was rationale…
That was tough to watch in the stadium with a bunch of folks that really could care less about football around me in Toronto…
ugh
Great job – and yes – Beck is horrible. I have no idea what Shanahan is thinking. I wouldn’t want him as our backup and we have Tyler Thigpen.
Hopefully Rex gets the job back because even though he turns the ball over he can actually do something with the ball.
Good luck the rest of the season Redskin fans.
I'll take the Chanticleer over Beck any day.
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painful but great
I really didnt think most of these were on beck at first watch (half of which was from under a pillow). very enlightening.
428 brothers
What do you guys think? Am I being harsh on Beck and does the Oline need to step up? Or does Beck need to get the ball out quicker?
As a Bills fan, I don’t think you’re being too harsh. Bills fans have seen the dramatic difference it makes having a decisive QB (Fitzpatrick vs. Trent Edwards). Yes, our Oline has been doing pretty well, but they are helped out greatly by Fitz’ ability to get the ball out quickly, recognize blitzes, alter coverages, and work with Gailey to negate what the D is doing. Fitz and Gailey have made the Oline look very good in pass pro. And the Oline has improved on its own also.
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
What do you think about Fitz's contract extension?
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i know how dare they
don’t they know he’s not a 1st round quarterback and they have no chance to succeed. They should just package together Jackson, Dareus, WIlson and their next 3 first round picks to get Andrew Luck.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
haha i couldn't resist
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Personally I think it was appropriate. Some Bills fans think it was either too much $$ or too soon.
But the new contract (the terms of which don’t begin until next year, I think) pays him at about 12th highest QB in the league. I think it would be difficult to argue that there are definitely 12 better QBs in the league than Fitzpatrick right now. The money level for QBs has risen – as fans it seems a bit high as far as the total amount of money, but the market has gone up.
Fitz has been a huge part (along with Gailey) of turning this offense of no-names into a force to be reckoned with. I think keeping him for the next few years brings a great deal of stability without preventing the team from drafting an understudy. I also think locking up Fitz will make it much easier for the Bills to sign some of the other FAs whose contracts are expiring, especially Stevie Johnson.
Give a monkey a typewriter and infinite time, and he’ll eventually release Maybin. -- stetzwebs
No one circles the waiver wire like the Buffalo Bills!
by thefourwinds on Nov 1, 2011 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
This article makes me do one big facepalm.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
The only thing that can fix this is a freaking running game.
We need more Helu.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
Just because you asked, they will now give him an extra carry for the 49ers game
He’ll be up to four whole carries!
He's obviously our best running back.
Why would he not get more carries?
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
maybe he it's because they don't trust a rookie
maybe he has bad practice habits. I’ve got no clue. I wish they played him more too. He is by far our most dynamic player in the backfield.
How is it obvious that he's our best RB?
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Based on Torrain and Helu
who would you rather see? The injury prone runner who stands up too much or helu the quick and elusive lesser known player
Both, about 10-12 carries a game
Sprinkle Choice in for 5
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Yeah but that argument didn't work out for the Beck vs Rex
Who would you rather see, the more accurate mobile strong arm qb or the slow one who makes bad decisions a lot.
Well of course your going to say the Mobile Accurate one….thing is he doesn’t make any decisions…he just gets sacked.
Because it just is.
No other way to explain it.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
Good analysis...
“This guy never gets any carries, and we haven’t seen him but he’s obviously the best RB.”
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Just like John Beck was the best QB on the roster.
by horatius on Nov 1, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
by far...
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It's freaking great analysis.
We’ve seen him against Arizona, when he got right many carries. He just does more with the ball in his hands than anyone else.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
You don't think that an intact line had something to do with that in Week 2?
I doesn’t matter who runs right now, b/c NO ONE is running. Torain had 8 carries with wet paper bags in front of him. We need to try to establish some sort of run, but it doesn’t have anything to do with the runningback, rather a good mix of carries. Torain/Helu should be combining for at least 20+ carries a game, and the team around 27-30 total. Not 8!
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I don't know why we're always seeking some mystical feature back.
Our rotation is fine, our offensive gameplan is not.
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I agree. The line is hurting and hopefully we get Trent back.
But if that’s the case, you go with the fastest guy.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
RB isn't about the fastest guy or we'd have Banks playing RB.
Especially in the ZBS with one-cut runners. We don’t need to go with any guy. We need to stick to a platoon. That’s what the NFL is now and it’s the only way to survive. The days of the feature back are dead.
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That platoon thing is so cliche.
At running back give Helu 25 carries. I guarantee he will have more than 125 yards because he gets the chance to get into a groove.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
How is it cliche? It's the league right now.
Give him those 25 carries and you’ll see a lot of things you don’t want to see, and he’ll likely be injured. Where does that leave us? Also our QB would likely be dead b/c of his pass block capabilities.
The NFL is a marathon, not a sprint. Name me an NFL RB that averages 25 carries? What’s that? There is none?
Only 3 RBs average over 20 carries per game, and that’s Arian Foster, AD, and MJD. Do you really think Helu is on that level?
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Give him 25 carries and watch us win a football game.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
Yea he'd probably do well if we fed him the rock one game that many times.
But how would he do after 3 weeks of doing it. You need to look beyond quick fixes and each game. We need Helu more in future years than we do right now. Running him into the ground as a rookie is not the way to go.
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He'd be just fine.
Run him a billion times for all I care, that’s what he’s paid for.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
smart...
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How does CP = Helu
And you don’t think that perhaps the pounding we put on CP correlates to the 20+ games he missed here due to injury? And all the others where he had to sit out large portions of the games?
Portis also never averaged 25 carries per game.
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He's also our second leading rusher behind some dude named Riggins.
And single-handedly carried us to the playoffs twice. Washington football has always been about the running game, QBs are kind of secondary. Keep with tradition, it will work.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
So Helu is just as good as Riggins and CP?
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Sure Parks.
Take some of my words and make them into whatever you like.
If I say yes will it make you feel better to call me an idiot?
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
I don't want to call you an idiot...
I want you to understand that we were able to pound the rock 20+ times per game with CP and Riggins b/c they were CP and Riggins, two of the best EVER. They were physical runners and physical specimens.
I like Helu but we shouldn’t submit him to that torment, all it is going to do is retard his development and our teams.
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And what I'm saying is....
those guys gave us the best chance to win, as does Helu IMO. Will he be Riggo, CP or even Stephen Davis? I don’t know.
But riding the coattails of a good running game (Shanny’s specialty) gives us a better chance than trying to pass off Beck as Drew Brees.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
Balance gives us the best chance at winning
That’s how you develop a good running game. Us pounding one dude 25 times would just be an invitation to stuff the box. You need thunder and lightning to succeed in this league, and not many RBs have both.
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Thunder and lightning?
Another cliche. Run this guy 20 + times a game.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
Don't confuse history with the future or present
Just because the only way the Skins won in the past was because of a power running game doesn’t mean they’ll continue to win that way or even that they’ll even be able to win that way in the future.
We need a QB.
Adrian Peterson? Darren McFadden? Chris Johnson (last few years) Adrian Foster?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Nov 1, 2011 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions
We don't have those guys...
How’s that working out with CJ2K? Pretty easy to figure out isn’t it?
Also McFadden is not a “feature” back, the Raiders nearly split carries with him and Michael Bush, which works out well and helps keep both fresh.
Finally, why do you think the Vikings drafted Toby Gerhart? Even AD needs someone else to take the rock 5 to 7 a game.
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No, we don't know yet if we have that guy.
I think Helu is that guy.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
All true, but
There have been many games among those players where they have carried the ball 25 times or more and won a game for their team.
I am not saying that any running back on our roster is capable of doing that all year, but neither are the running backs that I mentioned.
I think what people like me are frustrated with, is the fact that we never try to feature a back up against a defense that is known to be porous.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Nov 1, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
We're you sleeping through the 5+ years of Clinton Portis.
I think what people like me are frustrated with, is the fact that we never try to feature a back up against a defense that is known to be porous.
If we had AD, or Foster, or MJD, then I’d be more than happy for them to carry the ball 25+ times. But right now it has to be a good mix. Give Helu 12-15 carries, Torain 10-12, and someone else 3-5.
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I not talking about the Clinton years
I’m talking about the current regime.
Kyle seems to abandon the run too early when we get behind.
I guess defenses that are so bad against the run, I think the team would do better if they went with the hot hand on the ground for a little while longer.
Shanahan has said that the running game in his mind is all about getting positive yardage; you may not always get a homerun, but his system tries to get 3 yards for every Kerry.
Once the team becomes one-dimensional, it is easy for any defense no matter how bad to slow our offense with the talent level that we have.
You are going to have a system type coach, I think we need to stay with the system.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Nov 1, 2011 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand that and said that, this more of a gameplan issue than a personnel issue
As I said before:
Give Helu 12-15 carries, Torain 10-12, and someone else 3-5.
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hold on-
On rereading your answer, I think we actually agree on the running game.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Nov 1, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
haha ok
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Also, have you noticed Ben Tate carrying the ball about 13 times per game?
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9 you are forgetting the awesome end around by Stallworth
seriously, who calls a fake end around, then a real one on the next play? Shouldn’t you reverse that? Run the real end around then the fake one so they bite on it??
I understand the line sucks, but I think Torain should be able to manage more than 1.5 YPC, which he has in his past 20 carries against the Eagles, Panthers and Bills. The Eagles and Panthers were both ranked 31st in the league in run defense when we played them, and the Bills weren’t far behind and without their primary NT Kyle Williams. I get that the line is bad, but Hightower did alright against the Panthers and I do think that Helu could do better. Is he going to get 5 ypc no, or even 100 yards a game, but I think he can help us move the chains a couple of times, sustain a drive or two. Also by running him, it doesn’t give away the fact that it is a pass play.
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Could you imagine if Banks actually threw that ball on the KR?
I agree with Torain, but it’s also hard to get going when you carry the ball once every 10 minutes.
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i like that they were trying trick plays but they didn't execute them
Banks didn’t seem to come out of the endzone (8 yards deep) with the same burst if he had maybe the guy doesn’t go cover Paul
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If Banks would of passed I feel it would of been 100% a Bills TD.
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i def. agree about the lack of carries but part of that is on him
why did Hightower get so many carries, b/c they were extending drives. If you get a first down carry and you only get 1 yard, now we need to rely on our passing attack to get us the rest.
I def. don’t solely blame Torain, but i’d love to see the Platoon split 60/40 in Helu’s favor. Helu’s earned it, Torain has only looked good against the Rams.
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Rex has no room for improvement and our schedule is an impossible task for him to overcome.
It’s a Win-Win situation (considering the fact that we’re not a playoff team no matter what change we make) to keep Beck as the starter. If he improves over the second half of the season, great! If not, we’re 3-13 and in great position to get a real QB.
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
+1 Love how the grass is always greener
I read a comment above stating that Grossman’s turnovers were okay because he threw picks down the field that were just like punts anyway…..get real….he had a number of picks deep in our own territory and in the redzone….Grossman constantly killed drives.
Beck may end up showing that he’s not a starter in the NFL…so far that’s exactly what he has shown; however, people need to remember 2 things: 1) This was his…what…6th NFL start? and 2) Rex Grossman sucks, has always sucked, and will always sucked.
If you play Grossman, you know exactly where you are going…nowhere. If you play Beck, you get three possible outcomes:
1) Beck Sucks, your record sucks, and you draft high next year.
2) Beck shows to be an adequate caretaker for a year while you groom a new QB.
3) Beck clicks, gets it, and shows the potential to lock down the QB spot for us.
Scenario 1 is the most likely given what we have seen, but would that be so bad? We weren’t going to win a Super Bowl with this team this year, so who cares about a losing season. Better to test out everyone on this team to see who is worth keeping with the rebuild.
Grossman should not play another down for this team, save for injury to Beck
If you want to win a football game Sunday then who are you starting Beck or Grossman?
Grossman at least moved the ball. Right now I feel like we’re the Little Giants in the first half of their game in the movie.
Beck hasn’t just shown he can’t be a starter in this league, he’s shown he doesn’t belong in this league altogether. I don’t think you can go back now, but starting Beck in the first place was stupid.
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Winning/Competing against the Bills doesn't matter long term
This isn’t a playoff or SB team, so winning this game doesnt really matter in the long run. The only way I would support Grossman playing is if we had a playoff caliber team, and we thought Grossman could help us do some damage in the postseason.
Fact is, he’s terrible, has no ceiling, and so he shouldn’t play.
You didn't answer my question. If your life was on the line to win this sunday then who would you start?
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Oh God....what a terrible predicament I'd be in...haha
I guess Grossman…but what does that have to do with anything? Saying if I had a gun to my head for the Redskins/Bills?
It has to do with everyone wanting John Beck on this board and crucifying Grossman.
Beck is BEYOND TERRIBLE.
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Uh...nobody crucified Grossman.
He erected a 6 foot pointy pole, then jumped from a 30 foot ledge on to it ass first.
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
by ThuGodfather on Nov 1, 2011 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd hate to know what Beck is erecting then...
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Extremes
Parks, you are jumping to extremes….“if youre life depended on it” “crucifying Grossman”
All Im saying is that Grossman is terrible, we know it, its a fact.
Beck MAY BE terrible too, but he’s played single-digit games in the NFL….how can you prefer Grossman to Beck, especially with the knowledge that the Redskins are not a playoff caliber team?
There is no "Beck may be terrible", HE IS TERRIBLE!
He’s atrocious, you didn’t see that in preseason? If I was the GM then Beck would be in the UFL and Grossman would be starting with Pat Devlin learning and backing him up. We’re not doing a single thing for our future by having both of these guys in DC, we need to be developing something even if its a back up.
If he was good then why did the Ravens trade him for freaking Doug Dutch? Why did the Dolphins give up on him so early? HINT: It’s b/c he’s really bad a playing football.
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6 NFL starts, you don't know yet
And if we had a better option, then of course I’d be for it….but we have REX….who has proven that he is terrible over and over and over
Name another QB of any stature
that didn’t at least show signs in 6 starts…
he has been in the NFL for years…just because you have only seen him in 6 starts doesn’t mean coaches haven’t seen him much more, including preseason starts.
He is not an NFL caliber starter, maybe not even a back up. Too bad our other option isn’t much better.
Yea
I agree….again, not making excuses for Beck…I just believe starting him the rest of the way is better for the Redskins than starting Grossman in the long run
John Elway was god awful his first 6 starts
but he was a rookie. I don’t hold Beck’s starts against him b/c that team was awful and he wasn’t ready.
Now i’m not a huge fan of Beck’s but i’m only really grading him on what I have seen in preseason and this year.
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+1
Thats all im satying…that you can only grade Beck on a small sample size…you can grade Grossman on years of terrible play, so why would anyone advocate going back to Rex?
For the same reason some of us never wanted the change to happen.
so why would anyone advocate going back to Rex?
Just go back two weeks and read the posts. And don’t make me bring out my list of preemptive excuses that everyone made for Beck. And how many times a day do I have to read someone say, “I’m not making excuses for Beck, buuuut….”
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but he's mobile and has a cannon for an arm
those were my favorite ones.
Beck is so mobile that he actually has now twice knocked the ball out of his own hand…that takes skill. And Beck’s mobility didn’t really decrease any of the sacks or pressure.
And that cannon doesn’t mean anything if it is inaccurate or thrown into coverage…just ask Kyle Boller.
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I've found game footage of Beck's release point/arm angle
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I think I pulled my back looking at that picture.
by snowburnt on Nov 1, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
the thing that I've said is
give Beck 6 games, give him a real shot (and hopefully a game or two with Trent back) and see what you got. After that though, go back to Grossman, because I think he might be slightly (and not by much) better for the development of our young receivers and Helu.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Completely agree & a very good point...it seems like we are spinning our wheels
We’re not doing a single thing for our future by having both of these guys in DC, we need to be developing something even if its a back up.
On practice squads or cut
Crompton, Jonathan
A. Rotated on and off PS numerous times this season
Sean Canfield, New Orleans Saints
Drew Willy, San Diego Chargers
Ryan Perrilloux, New York Giants
B. Looked promising out of the 2011 draft
Pat Devlin, Miami Dolphins
Adam Froman, Atlanta Falcons
C. PS or cuts including vets
Levi Brown, Buffalo Bills
Zac Robinson, Cincinnati Bengals
Dan LeFevour, Cincinnati Bengals
Rudy Carpenter, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
Adam Weber, Denver Broncos
John Parker Wilson, Atlanta Falcons
Graham Harrell, Green Bay Packers
Kevin O’Connell, Miami Dolphins
Kellen Clemens, Washington Redskins
Joshua Nesbitt, Buffalo Bills
Jarrett Brown, Cleveland Browns
Brodie Croyle, Arizona Cardinals
by Jefferson1935 on Nov 1, 2011 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Parks is basically saying you are dead
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haha
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In fairness if it was some like some gambling situation
i.e. the Skins win or you get killed by the bookie, you deserve to die b/c you bet on the Redskins. It would then be up for a Darwin Award.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Yes but parks is right
Do people forget. In grossmans 8 starts here he had 1 bad game, the 4 int game. In a perfect world we would go back to Rex now but Shanny is going all in with John beck. Just read his comments to the media
by CommunistKevin on Nov 1, 2011 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions
And it does matter...
When have you ever seen Landry, DHall, and London arguing with one another. Those things linger. A bad locker room is infectious and we’re bordering on it right now. A win solves everything.
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Agreed-that's what has been happening for the last decade
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Nov 1, 2011 11:55 AM EDT up reply actions
Yea....so they can argue all year long if they want, and then next year, if/when we fill the proper holes, we start winning, and then everyone's happy again
Don’t try to tell me that somehow the spirit of these players or this team is going to be irreparably damaged…
The fact is, we as fans care much more than the players do. It’s their profession, and they are going to come out every week and try to win
Are you serious? It happens all the time, especially with young players.
Don’t try to tell me that somehow the spirit of these players or this team is going to be irreparably damaged…
Cincy finally got all their clowns out of town and made the faces of the franchise their youth. WTF is Fletcher going to stick around if he has to get yelled and work regularly with morons like Landry and DHall?
Ever noticed that “C” on Hall’s shoulder? What does that say to the younger players on this team? What does that say to the fans? It’s a joke…
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Lions
Went 0-16 a couple seasons ago. Did they have to clear their roster of everyone involved in that debacle of a season because they were too shell shocked to continue playing in Detroit?
No….they got the top pick, rebuilt the team, and now look like an up-and-comer.
I’m not advocating tanking, and I dont want the Redskins to lose ever, but when you aren’t going to the SB, then your W/L record doesn’t really matter.
And DHall’s behavior has nothing to do with winning and losing…he’s an immature person who could steer young players to bad attitudes regardless of the Redskin’s record
ummm... Yes they did...
Went 0-16 a couple seasons ago. Did they have to clear their roster of everyone involved in that debacle of a season because they were too shell shocked to continue playing in Detroit?
Did you not notice Rod Marnelli being sent packing? What about Matt Millen?
Look at their roster dude, they only people on ‘08 that are still there are Calvin Johnson, Backus, Raiola, Cherilus, Avril, and Jason Hanson. It’s basically not even the same organization. It was 8 years of a god awful culture that just sucked the life out of the Silver Dome.
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Well we're doing the same thing here
We had Vinny, they had Millen
They had Marinelli, we had Zorn
We’ve had huge roster turnover the past 2 years.
We’re getting sidetracked on the issue….I agree with you that John Beck hasn’t shown to be good, he has been bad. But Rex IS bad, has been bad for his whole career….so how can you advocated starting him over Beck?
Why would starting Grossman be better than starting Beck?
Because the offense actually moves...
Why would starting Grossman be better than starting Beck?
And we haven’t done the same thing here. We still have 20 guys from the Zorn era. Do you Jim Schwartz would mark DHall as a captain? The guy has to go. He’s extremely detrimental to the team and team’s culture. I’ve been saying this a long time. I’d rather Reed Doughty be a captain than DHall.
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I know this isn't the entire discussion as it is more on the players
but there is no guarantee that Shanny is the solution and not part of the problem.
Can you imagine the fan outcry if Sunday’s embarrassment occurred two years ago? 98% of Redskins fans would be picketing Ashburn demanding Vinny and Zorn’s head.
I’m not saying that we should do that, but it is important to remember that we are still making plenty of bad personnel and play calling decisions.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Completely agree.
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Exactly
Why do you think we keep losing quality players through free agency? Most players are out there wanting to be successful and win a championship-or at least have a reasonable chance. They are all going to get paid at some point.
Once you’ve established a tradition of winning, it becomes infectious and makes better players out of everyone. If you were around in the 80s and early 90s, you would have seen how the tradition lifted the team.
Sadly, we have built a tradition of a losing franchise that is frequently the joke of the NFL. There have been plenty of teams that go through a long period of losing-but if you do it with as much obvious ineptitude as we have. Hopefully, we have begun to turn that around; but, when I see posts like this where it is obvious that the coaching is not at its best, I start to worry.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Nov 1, 2011 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions
Does anyone know why they just don't become a no huddle team?
They always seem so much more effective when they pick up the pace, but currently, even when they were losing, there was no sense of urgency.
At least it would keep the defense from subbing out.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
I think a lot of that is due to the fact they are in some sort of prevent, not anything we're doing
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That is true
especially when they brought in beck for the end of the eagles game. That was mostly prevent.
Same w/ Carolina game and any "movement" late against Buffalo
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It works, I guess...
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
Great breakdown
I actually heard them mentioning in passing on 92.7 yesterday at lunch that people reviewing film were attributing 6 of the 9 sacks as decisively on Beck (with the others being a bit more complicated).
Either way putting 7 on him puts you very within the realm of other folks I’ve heard analyzing the game. It’s really unfortunate. I’m no fan of the Sex Cannon but this is exactly why I kept telling people to be careful what they wished for with Beck.
Great Job on Sack Breakdown
Don’t think your being too hard on Beck, but I also think the OL needs to step up and Kyle needs to make better adjustments. Where are the 3 step drops?
Seriously. Run the quick slant play.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
careful what you wish for.
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I would like to have seen some more short/quick passes.
But it got to a point where we were too far behind and needed to score quickly in order to have time to get the ball back and score again to get in range of them.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
For needing to score quickly they sure acted pretty lackadaisically out there. Waiting until the 4th for the no-huddle?
At the same time, I had a sinking feeling that when we didn’t go for it on 4th and 1 from the 50 on the second drive the game was over for the offense. Sure enough it took 2 plays for the Bills to get past the 50. And then the proceeded to score the winning touchdown.
I'm hoping to see more screens, short passes and runs on Sunday.
Also this game is 1p.m., west coast team going east.
Hopefully Beck learns from this, if he is the filmrat he claims to be.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
I think you and I think a lot alike when it comes to our preferred style of offense.
I’m hoping overtime our offense begins to resemble Philly’s a little bit, but I think the way Kyle Shanahan wants QBs to go through progressions is entirely different.
It has to change.
Beck’s only job should be get the ball in the hands of the fast guys as QUICKLY as possible, like less than 2 seconds quickly.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
That's the only way they can prevent sacks with that leaky O-line
he needs to dump it off the moment it is in his hands
We should really be hired as consultants.
I’d have this mess cleaned up by Thursday.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
But do you have any experience as a bingo caller?
That’s the only question in the job interview.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
No, but I'm badass in Balderdash.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
Consultant candidates must also have creatively named trick plays.
We’re still waiting to see Kyle execute the following:
Tipped Merry-Go-Round
Can of Mixed Beans
Broken See-Saw
and of course, my favorite…the Cat Nap.
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
by ThuGodfather on Nov 1, 2011 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Ole' sidearm McGee doesn't have the delivery method to flourish in those type of sets.
He basically slings it between lineman’s heads on quick slants and such.
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That should surprise the linemen
Rattle them a bit. Make them rethink their fundamentals.
For him to do well in a slant, timing based offense he has to step up to compensate for his arm angle.
And when he does that he clanks his hand on our OL helmets. He just can’t do it IMO.
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Uk Redskin
This has become my favorite post on this blog.. Keep up the great work!!
Thanks man.
Appreciate it.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
+1000000000000...
this is better than NFL Matchup.
This is the closest I am ever going to get to a NFL film room.
Ha, I wouldn't go that far.
Just saying what I see. Nothing too fancy about it. Appreciate the complement though.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
to be truthful...
I have not always thought that about your posts, but this one, given how bad this team played and how bad all fans feel, seemed to clarify some things. All fans, like myself, have questions about how the wheels can come off so quickly, and your breakdown was necessary to understand the kaos.
Also, I can’t believe the amount of time you must spend on analysis and then photoshop the pictures. Kuddos to you.
John Beck is terrible!!!
Things were never this bad with Rex.. The Defense played better, the team was more inspired with Rex. Now that Beck is in, the missed tackles are back. Receivers don’t look as pen as they were earlier in the year.. Where are all the Beck supporters at now??
by Chillz on Nov 1, 2011 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I will just say.
I’m not saying put Rex back in, or that Beck still deserves to start, I’m impartial. To be totally honest, I think its only far to give Beck a solid run of games like Grossman had to see if he has what it takes to pick himself up after a couple of rough games and get the offense going.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
Beck simply
holds the ball toooooooo long. I’ve never screamed “THROW THE BALL” at the TV so much in my life.
rec'd
You outdo yourself each week. The crux of the issue is summarized well at the end. If defenses can make effective pressure while rushing less than 6, our offense stands no chance
Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, uh, your opinion man
great work UK and I'm happy for the breakdowns but I think you are a bit too harsh on Beck
Yes maybe 2 or 3 sacks are on him, but most of those sacks come in under 4 seconds, and he’s even getting pressured well before that. That is simply unacceptable by the line. Also, a couple of times that you point to a receiver being open, I don’t think they were as viable an option as we would hope. Ex. Sack 4 you suggest that Davis is open, but the defender was with in two steps behind him and staring right into the backfield, with an angle on the ball. Not only is that unlikely to be complete, but there is a chance the defender breaks on it and it’s an INT.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 1, 2011 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Are you going to the game Sunday?
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actually i'm not, i got a friend's wedding up in Jersey (i'm not proud of it)
Now maybe if the Skins were 5-3 I’d come back early enough but I don’ think it is worth it in this case.
Where are you sitting?
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I don't know, lower deck somewhere. Not sure why I'm going, haha.
At least seeing the 49ers will mean I’ve seen every NFC West team in person now!
Tailgating should be fun, haha.
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I'm hoping I remember more of the game than I did for the AZ game in Week 2.
For some reason all I can remember is Kevin standing over me with a ton of glitter on his face.
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haha
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
if you go to any of the other home games let me know, good news is ticket prices should be pretty good after that debacle
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
haha yep
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Noted.
The game clock is in the top corner for each picture however, so you can get a judge by that. Most of the time, Beck appeared to get about 3-4 seconds to get rid of the ball. I’ll let you guys judge if that’s enough time.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
On deep routes, it's probably not.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
yeah also especially since on more than one of those plays Beck had to step up in under 3 seconds
and while he didn’t get sacked until say between 3-4.5 seconds the play was already disrupted.
Again a couple were def. on him, and one was on Helu, but at least 5 I think were on the line.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Interesting.
Out of interest, which 5 would you put on the Oline?
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
I would say sacks
1 and 8 are all on Beck, sack 2 on Helu, and 6 is about half and half on Beck and the O-line
Sack 3, 4, 5, 7 and 9 are the offensive line. Maybe one of those (sack 3) he could dump off, but it was a 3rd and 7 play and Helu was at the 7 yard line and needed to get to the 25 for a first with no blockers out in front of him and a guy spying him.
6 i say is in between, because Paul was open and open fairly early (though i disagree about Helu since he wasn’t even close to looking for the ball), but Locklear lost his block within 2 seconds, and Beck was getting him in under 4 seconds. That can’t happen from the blind side, not when it was a fairly deep drop.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I can see what you're saying.
I’d still debate sack 4, that one for me is on Beck. I realize that the belief is that the Bills were in a zone coverage on the potential throw to Davis. But he had 3 quick pass options. He needs to make a quick decision or get rid of the ball/scramble. He took too long to make the decision to scramble imo.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
see i don't see that he had any quick passing options
all three of those receivers are tightly covered, and that line is collapsing quickly. here is is in real time http://www.nfl.com/videos/washington-redskins/09000d5d8239d2d9/Bills-defense-sack-7-yd-loss
I paused it to go second by second and I never saw where a guy was open. Those defenders are just baiting Beck to throw the ball. and all are looking to jump the routes.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I'll agree to disagree on this one.
I still think he had Davis, if you look at where the defender who could have come back to get the ball ended up, he was miles away covering Austin.
And even if he can’t make the throw, he has to throw it away or make the decision to scramble earlier. The route combination suggest that it’s meant to be a catch, step, rock and throw by Beck. He has to make the decision quicker imo.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
i don't know about that
the guy on Davis never wavered, he’s got the angle and position, and he didn’t cover Austin at all. I’m talking about the safety not the corner who looked like he hesitated on the deep route and came back in. As soon as the play starts the safety makes a beeline for Davis and he is covered. The only possible throw is if Beck check’s back on Austin and throws it to the side line so it is either a catch or incomplete, but he didn’t have the time. I also don’t think he had the time to run the ball.
While I agree there were quick throwing options, Bills covered it perfectly for a sack in under 4 seconds.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Sincere question
Do you think those 3 wins will haunt you in the draft? The colts and fins are almost 100% going 0-16. What do you do? Right now you not out of the NFC East Race, so do you suck for luck or do you nut up and hope things fall into place? The Dilemma is you already know what you have at QB and THATS IT.
"Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that."-Bill Shankly
Dont mind my typos, trying to be sneaky at work like the rest of you
Well the Dolphins do get to play us.
The colts and fins are almost 100% going 0-16.
I don’t think they “haunt” us b/c I don’t know if we could try to be worse than Indy, Miami, and Seattle even if we tried. I expect the Top 3 QBs to all go there, so I don’t think it matters much. I also think it’s important for our young “core” to experience both victory and hardships.
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Thats the spirit
lets suck for our young core. It’ll toughen them up. The good thing about all this is that maybe they will do something significant in the off season. If the offense were average, then the team may put off yet again hard decisions.
by hambonejackson on Nov 1, 2011 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
How did you take that from what I said?
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From this statement
I also think it’s important for our young "core" to experience both victory and hardships.
by hambonejackson on Nov 1, 2011 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Some how that translated to lets lose on purpose?
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I don't think the Skins need to lose on purpose
They are doing just fine losing by trying to win.I know you are trying to find the good in all of this. There really is no real good in any of this except for the team to do something about getting some Olinemen for this team. If the Skins can run the ball, that would take a lot of pressure off the qb..
by hambonejackson on Nov 1, 2011 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
If the top 3 QBs are gone by the time we pick, then I wouldn't mind taking the top LT.
Then take the best QB available in Round 2.
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
by ThuGodfather on Nov 1, 2011 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Kalil will be gone. We'd be looking at Reiff or Martin.
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What do you expect our pick to be? 6th? 7th?
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
by ThuGodfather on Nov 1, 2011 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions
I'd guess 8th.
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If we go 3-13, I'm thinking 6th.
If so, I don’t see LT as the greatest need for any of the teams in the top 5. It’s possible Kalil could fall.
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
by ThuGodfather on Nov 1, 2011 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions
Well I don't think we're going 3-13, so theres that...
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the Rams are going to go LT
and probably move Saffold to the right side.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
I was thinking they'd want a star WR, but yeah maybe they'd take him.
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
well if they resign Lloyd that moves down on their list
but it is so much easier to get good WR talent. There are a ton of FA’s next year, some will get resigned or franchised, but some will be available. My guess is there isn’t going to be a single stud LT next year, all will be resigned or franchised.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
OT might actually be worth waiting on, especially if we trade back.
Adcock, Adams, Sanders, Datko should be there in the 2nd, along with a slew of interior linemen.
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Yea our QB will be able to get him the ball from his back! GOOD MOVE!
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That's what the Lions said about Charles Rogers, Roy Williams, and Mike Williams.
All Top 10 picks.
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True
I guess it’ll be up to the coaches to decide what’s the bigger need.
I’m all for trading back so that we can take a Tackle and a few interior linemen.
Whoever the QB is next year, he needs more than 4 seconds to throw
Blackmon has a dui
so it will be hard for the Bengals to pass him up.
by hambonejackson on Nov 1, 2011 11:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Drafting Blackmon would be like being given a remote control car, but with no remote control
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yeah i def. wouldn't take a receiver not when he have needs at every other position
again look at the Falcons (and he’s their number 2 or 3 target behind White or Gonzalez). The Chiefs ended up where Atlanta picked and selected Jon Baldwin, and the Browns took Greg LIttle in the 2nd round with the Falcons pick. My guess is both of those receivers will have similar careers, despite not being a part of an offense that is as good.
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has nothing to do with who was but rather who they thought the players were
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Just as you can't say Blackmon is a sure thing.
See what happened there?
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Lets not draft anybody then.
Because there has been multiple bust in the first round for every position. You put it on your scouts to evaluate the talent. And they probably could of been a better team had they not had Joey Harrington or a middle school offensive line.
You draft a strong core.
Beck and Grossman would be a lot better if we actually had a good offensive line. This is the draft to both get quality offensive lineman in the first 3 rounds and a QB of the future.
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Why not?
Who do you consider to be #2? Martin or Reiff will certainly be there, and it’s up to us to consider who is better. Almost every scout had Okung ahead of Trent, but yet we felt Trent was a better pick for this team.
And you don’t have to get the top OT. Trade back. Get an extra 2nd, and then draft guys like Glenn, Sanders, DeCastro, Adcock, Adams, Konz, Brewster, Jones, Osemele, Datko, Zeitler, Nix, Wagner, Massey. Draft two OL and then take Tannehill or someone else in the second.
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I'm just sick of mid round talent
I want a SUPERSTAR I want a Larry Fitz a Peyton Manning a Aaron Rogers a Calvin Johnson….I don’t want a stupid Desean Jackson or a Devin Thomas or any of those, I know most of every team is average players….but we don’t have one great player one that people around the league fear…We have London Fletcher yeah…but nobody fears him like P Willis. We have Chris Cooley nobody fears him like Jermichael Finnely. We have Brian Orakpo who has failed to improve his pass rushing.
yes but our top round talent hasn't exactly been setting the world on fire
the problem is our scouting in general and the fact that we trade away so many picks that one a couple guys don’t make the cut or get injured we don’t have the depth to rely on.
Look at Steve Johnson for the Bills, dude was a 7th rounder in the same draft that we got Thomas and Kelly. The Bills also busted with a 2nd round WR in that draft in Hardy, but now who cares b/c they got a number one guy in Johnson.
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actually it depends
The Rams, Cards and Vikes could all look LT in Round 1 so if they are above us there is a chance that the 3 tackles go quickly. Reiff might be there at 10, but i’m guessing two tackles are gone before the 10th spot this year.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
i do like the trade back idea though
and agree grab two of those guys plus Tannehill and you are having a good day
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Elect me GM and I'll make it happen.
Also Pat Devlin and Chris Summers will be on the squad for sure.
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and a trade for Rashard Jennings
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Hmm....Let's say we're the 8th pick and trade back 10 spots twice for 2 2nd rounders.
That’s very low 1st round pick for the QB, then 3 2nd rounders for RT, C and G. I could be down with that.
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
yeah something along those lines
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
WR's probably have the highest bust rate of any position
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 1, 2011 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
it doesn't even matter the team but yes we have plenty of cautionary tales
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Of Course!
Brandon Ll…..uhhh
Devin Thom….ummmm
Malcolm Kkk….ehhhh
haha but seriously, we need a #1 wideout
We didn’t draft Brandon Lloyd, we traded for him for 2 picks…I guess that counts as bad drafting.
We definitely do need a #1 wideout, but I wonder if we really just need a guy that develops drafted WRs and actually trusts them to play. I think there was one game where Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly both played in. They looked decent if I remember correctly, though we lost.
Why don’t we let our talent develop?
Not gonna cut it though
only getting one guy a year that does anything through the draft doesn’t even work out well for sports with small rosters like basketball or hockey. You can’t expect to replenish 50 people with just first rounders.
yes but Trent hasn't been that good (obviously the best we've got though)
and Orakpo isn’t a complete player yet, he has struggled against the run so far. He’s not the elite player that you are looking for, not yet at least.
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I thought Trent was doing really well. He’s completely shut down the best pass rushers in the league 1-on-1. The only time Ware got to the QB was when they moved him to the right side.
Did I miss something?
Ware didn't get a sack against him
but he got like 9 pressures and blew up a couple rushing plays. Now the chance that Ware would get completely shut out is pretty nil, but 9 pressures are a lot. Top tackles would only give up 2-4, if they truly ‘won’ against him.
Yes he is still young but those performances need to be a bit better. And just the general consistency to his game.
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Also, Orakpo struggles against the pass more often than not. It seems like they get him held up illegally but it never gets called. This is no excuse, he needs to step it up.
yeah but that is part of the game
every game they get away with a few holds, and so do we. Our problem is those are usually the few times we are even close to the QB, where even if we get away with a 3 or 4 holds, they are still getting after the QB plenty.
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Blackmon #1 Paul or Hank #2 use Santana like Wes Welker in the slot....
take a OL in the 2nd….or 3rd were not getting any of the talent that we need this year to come in with winning those three games.
So no QB all toghether?
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I honestly don't know what to do Parks...
we need a QB, but whats the point of taking one in the 2nd if they wont start this year and will most likely be a project. We need every pick possible to come on the field and contribute. We could go WR OL OL or OL OL WR, doesn’t matter. The point is if the QB wont start this year, its a position we could of drafted to help out the team now.
Steal Matt Flynn from the Packers
and draft olinemen. Can a qb like Flynn be any worse than Beck or Grossnan?
by hambonejackson on Nov 1, 2011 1:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Could Be
But I’m starting to think that a FA QB is probably our best option for next year.
Then we can use our picks/trade back to rebuild the line, get a WR, LB, CB, etc.
I think one way or another we need to pick up a starting caliber QB in free agency
no rookie is going to handle that rush.
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Another great post. Rec'd.
It’s getting a lot of attention from media folks, other sites, and twitter. Great job as always. I wish we had these posts during all the “CAMPBELL SUCKS” vs "IT"S THE OLINE!" debates. Probably was both…but let’s not go back to that dark era.
"Before you diagnose yourself with depression or low self-esteem, first make sure that you’re not, in fact, surrounded by assholes." - William Gibson
Thanks man.
Yeah, I jumped up like, 35 twitter followers in the space of an hour or two, which is huge for me when I have a low total of 115ish right now.
I’m not even gonna touch the Jason Campbell days…
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
This is the dark era
I think the offense was better under Zorn Campbell than it is right now.
by hambonejackson on Nov 1, 2011 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
I think the Skins should draft
house republicans cuz they block so well
by hambonejackson on Nov 1, 2011 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
The Grossman/Beck controversy
is right up there with the Wuerffel/Mathews debate.
by hambonejackson on Nov 1, 2011 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
There was a debate?
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more like a sense of despair
but ya. there was. Which qb does less damage.
by hambonejackson on Nov 1, 2011 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
John Beck....you suck!
It’s a sad day when rallying for the return of Rex Grossman is a reality.
Redskins @LandryJones2012
by Copious 1 on Nov 1, 2011 11:58 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I cant believe you would rally for the return of a QB who has proved his worthlessness for a 7 year career
Beck has 6 NFL starts….6….
4 with a terrible 1-15 Miami Dolphins team
2 behind a Redskins offensive line missing its 2 best players…
Beck may end up proving he sucks, but he has yet to receive a fair shot. And to want Grossman back is literally insane….look at his stat line over his career…..constantly terrible
John Beck has also not won a single game
and just because Shanny says he’s great, doesn’t make it so, look at how the Donovan McNabb thing worked out.
I never thought I’d agree with Parks, but the excuses for this guy just come left and right.
I hear ya
But i was noting the circumstances he’s had….not ideal for winning.
And I’m not making excuses for John Beck, I’m just saying that it makes more sense in the long run for the Redskins to start Beck over Rex…does that not make sense?
I believe that Beck has a chance to improve,
but each week that thought diminishes, my main point is about the people still saying he is an “unknown” factor, when we see him really just padding his stats in prevent defense time, but doing nothing before then. He could still improve, but I don’t believe in it as much as I did three weeks ago. And with what he has shown so far, I’m starting to rather have Rex Grossman back, then the guy who can’t take three steps without knocking the ball out of his own hands.
Rex also started the year with a full deck.
Beck is missing Trent, Kory, Santana, Hightower etc…
The key for THIS TEAM, THIS GROUP OF GUYS to win is to run the ball. A lot.
That will make everything so much easier, if it’s mixed in with some easy passing plays.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
Grossman started with a full deck, and had multiple turnovers in each game, just like every other season in his career
I’m sorry to keep harping on that….but I just can’t see the logic of ever starting Grossman again
he didn’t have multiple turnovers in each game. in the cardinals game you can’t even point to one turnover that was his fault. In the dallas game his fumble iced the game but I’d say the game was already over.
Agree though, obviously for different reasons, Grossman shouldn’t go back in there unless Beck gets broke.
I'm at the point now where my attitude is "fuck it".
Whatever happens happens. Arguing the number of carries, who should be quarterback, who to draft won’t change anything about this team. Not one bit.
Beat San Francisco on Sunday and we’re back in this thing.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
Breakdown Idea
UK…I have an idea for your next post. I was very supportive of Kyle Shannahan early on but as of late I have been very frustrated with his defiance in modifying his game plan to match his personnel or what the other team is doing.
I know that he has some great plays at times, as you have noted above, and I have heard that in person open WR are evident, but is there any way that you could break down his playcalling bests/worsts?
Thank you and keep up the great work. These articles are always must-reads!!!
Thanks man.
It would be hard to do thought. I like the idea, but it’s a lot of film to re-watch and would have to be a very very long post, which most people would probably fall asleep while reading.
The other problem with it is that Kyle can call a play, but the QB can change it at the line depending on the defense. On top of that, we have no real idea of just how much Mike has a role in what plays Kyle calls. It’s been a hot topic for debate, but I’m not 100% sure how I could break it down.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
Good points
I see what you are saying. It would be hard to decipher what is being called at what point in the game and it would be hard to find the best/worst out of all game film.
I was thinking just something that could give us fans a more informed opinion of Kyle’s abilities/weaknesses. I’m a bit at a crossroads on my opinion of him right now and I value your opinions and breakdowns.
I have asked the same...but I can tell you from being
at the games, many play call have been atrocious…with almost no receivers getting open.
Prime example. A one man route to Anthony Armstrong for no good reason. Running the same bunch formation over and over again when it wasn’t working (either due to Beck or the play call), motioning the RB out of the backfield in run/pass situations tipping off the defense.
Show at least those plays. He is being outmaneuvered by opposing DCs…over and over again.
Thanks for the great post !
I’m beginning to think we need to draft TWO quarterbacks in 2012.
I'm not letting Beck off the hook...
..but a functioning running game would have taken some of the responsibility off of him. With a non-existent running game, the Bills were able to sit on the passing game. That made things much harder on Beck.
This is not the Houston Texans. We’re supposed to have a balanced offensive plan, or maybe even a run-first plan. Twelve carries for the game is almost a more damning statistic than 9 sacks. Almost. Obviously Beck needs to go through his progressions and be more aware of where the pressure is coming from to adjust accordingly.
.....we don't have any sort of functioning offense
Name 4 starters we have that would start on another team.
Hurt, Hurt, Hurt, Hurt
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Hurt
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You know teams start 2 WRs right?
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Yeah...but if they run a 2 TE I Formation
then only one WR is on the field and it wouldn’t be moss on any other team.
O sorry I thought "starters" referred to what 99.9% of people refer to as starters.
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not many would start on playoff teams, and if so it is one guy here or one guy there.
I mean Moss and Davis would get used. But Davis isn’t better than a Gates, Finley, Gronkowski, etc.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Meh...
put Davis with the QBs of those teams and I guarantee he’s better than all of them.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
swing and a miss
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 1, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh God Steve!
I am so sorry to ever question your genius.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
well knowing is half the battle
seriously though, i’m not saying don’t argue, I’m saying back up your argument with something better than the QB play difference.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 1, 2011 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude!
All three of the QBs for those teams are awesome.
Brady: Definite HOFer
Rivers: Could be a HOFer
Rodgers: Could definitely be a HOFer.
Davis has had (fill in the blank) throwing to him.
To think QB play doesn’t make a difference is naive.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
guess what great wide receivers can still perform regardless of who is throwing them the ball
I’m not saying a QB doesn’t make a difference, but the reason Davis wouldn’t start above them has zero to do with the QB play. He’s not near the blocker or as tough to defend as some or most of those guys.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 1, 2011 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Davis is no where near the blocker any of those guys are
which alone knocks him down the list
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
by Steve Shoup on Nov 1, 2011 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
I take it you don't watch Davis give up on a block half way through the play.
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
by ThuGodfather on Nov 1, 2011 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
My thoughts
Trent Williams (name 31 better LT’s)
Fred Davis
Chris Chester (again….name 31 better RG’s)
Moss (in the slot where he SHOULD be)
Redskins @LandryJones2012
this seems like a common problem for the Skins
Patrick Ramsey, Jason Campbell, now Beck. These guys were shell shocked from the hits. Campbell’s was likely from the OLine, but Ramsey would take the snap, stand there, scan, scan scan, SACK!
Sean Locklear
will always be a problem. The Niners played against him for years and he always sucked left or right side didn’t matter.
Locklear is going to maul your ass...
and Penguins SUCK!
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Wrong on both counts.
Locklear couldn’t maul a teddy bear and with all the injuries the Penguins have had they are doing great.
Sorry iH8, I deleted our Niles Paul convo by accident...
Guy is a moron, I hope he takes it down.
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That kind of thing doesn't bother me at all, at least on Halloween.
It’s your one day to be politically incorrect and offensive.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
It doesn't matter if it bothers you or me, it's the people it actually does bother and gets him on SportsCenter for the wrong reasons
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Luckily nobody outside of the University of Nebraska and this blog cares who Niles Paul is.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
haha yea
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To Parks...Goodell did push Vicks hand
a commish that gets involved in that kind of stuff needs his hand cut off.
Stephan-he could push him to a team where he thinks he will get the most revenue from
To jbh, do you know who Luck's dad is? No one is pushing him around.
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He's also a Rhodes Scholar, has a JD from Texas, and was a 2nd round draftpick.
I doubt he’s going to let Goodell muscle his son around.
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What if an alien comes from outer space that is draft eligible and better than Luck?
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Please no aliens.
Our Skins have taken it up the ass one too many times already.
"If a man speaks and there is no woman around to hear him, is he still wrong???"
What I want to see Sunday on offense, aside from the O-line:
Starting WRs: Paul and Hankerson
Two TE set: Davis(if avail.) and Paulsen
RB: Helu
I think both of those WRs are excellent run blockers, and just start out the game hitting San Fran so fucking hard in the mouth Carlos Rogers will be seeing quadruple moves.
If we are rebuilding, which we are, throw everybody in the fire.
THE TWILIGHT SAGA: BREAKING DAWN, PART 1 – IN THEATERS NOVEMBER 18TH!!!!!
It doesn't matter how good your WR's are at run blocking, because they won't be blocking our LB's.
Clayton Kershaw, Giant Killer | KeMVP #BEASTMODE
"By now if u don't believe the Niners are for real ur probably not that good at what u do..." - Donte Whitner
I like the debate between this pile of crap or that pile of crap
Both are pretty shitty so I guess just let the one named Beck keep trying and maybe he will stink less. I believe most of the sacks were Beck’s. He needs to check everyone if someone isn’t open and make a decision faster.
nope
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Robinson is on the PS, right?
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Just checked, Robinson is still there!!!
Cut Banks now please!!! At the very least from all of the training camp posts, he can run precise routes and get separation. So…?
Redskins @LandryJones2012
Beck takes too long on is reads. Play Rex at least they win half the games. The whole offense just seems to be flat with Beck under center.
I don't know
It looked as if both of our OTs were in terrible position for the majority of those sacks which caused Beck to feel pressured and rush his progressions. When you have an undefined group of WRs, poor OT play, and a green QB, it’s really tough to decipher who to blame. I think everybody on that offense needs to improve significantly. This will truly test the Shanny’s coaching ability. They have a load of work to do before we play the VISCIOUS San Fran defense. If you thought this was ugly, wait for San Fran. Oh boy…
My Gameplan Going Forward
Would be something of a Joe Gibbs style of offense – Run, Run, Run, Run, Screen, Run Run, Run, Run, Run, Deep ball, Run, Run, Run, Run, Screen, Run, Run, Run, Deep ball… etc. We just don’t have the QB talent or O-line protection to run the multi-read kyle shannahan 70% pass playbook right now.
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