Power Play of the Week: The Pivotal Turnover That Killed the Game for the Redskins.
by UkRedskin on Oct 19, 2011 9:34 PM EDT
in Redskins Analysis
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PrintWhat's this? Two breakdowns in one day!?! "You must be crazy!?" I hear you cry, but no, I'm going for it, I'm doing it just for you guys! This week's Power Play of the Week was the 3rd INT by Rex Grossman. I think it was the best opportunity for us to get some big momentum and pull off another comeback win. Our defence had just stuffed the Eagles offence, and we had just managed to get this INT by DeAngelo Hall off Vince Young:
I don't think we gave Hall enough credit for this, that's a pretty touch catch to pull in there. By the way, Eagles fans, I'd be constantly paranoid about Michael Vick going down. Vince Young is your back up! He's on the field for two plays and he throw's an INT from his own goal line! He's nowhere near the receiver in the background there! Anyway, onto the actual play.
We're lined up in a fairly weird formation. We have 3 WR's (Jabar Gaffney, Santana Moss, Donte Stallworth) 1 TE (Fred Davis) and 1 RB (Ryan Torain).
We motion out Torain to a WR position on the far side of the field.
With Torain motioned out, we can see the full route patterns. Both Gaffney and Torain run comeback routes, and Moss is running a quick in route. Stallworth is running a post pattern, while Davis... well I'm not 100% sold on his route yet. It appears to be a deep comeback, or post. But he stutters before he finishes his route so it's hard to tell fully. Also note, the Eagles are in a nickel defence.
Looking at this slightly blurry picture from the "coaches cam", we can get an idea just how the Eagles are set up. I have two theories about what coverage they are playing. The first is they are simply playing cover 2, where the two deep safeties cover one side of the field each, like so:
However, going by the cushion that the two CB's are giving Gaffney (hardly going to burn you deep) and Torain (not even a WR) as you'll see here:
I expect it's more likely we're seeing cover 4, as illustrated below:
Either way, the important thing we can see here is that Davis has gotten ahead of the DB that was covering him. Grossman see's this as an opportunity to get a big play and pulls the trigger.
I think this is a great shot, it shows Just how much Rex can actually see when he throws the ball, and you can see that Davis is stopping and losing speed to come back to get the ball. Whereas, the Eagles safety Kurt Coleman uses his momentum and breaks on the ball, stealing it out of Davis's arms.
As I said earlier, I felt this really killed any sort momentum we we're building from the defence's performance. We really needed to get at least a Field Goal out of that possession to put doubt in the Eagles mind and give us confidence going into the 4th quarter. What do you guys think? Was there a more pivotal play for you? If so, let us know in the comments below.
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Another option?
Was there another receiver open on this play? Could Rex have thrown to someone else?
by redskins-texas-fan on Oct 19, 2011 9:51 PM EDT reply actions
Well, looking at the first "coaches cam" picture...
He could have thrown to either comeback route on the outside, and quite possible the underneath ball to Moss, although that would have been a tight throw with the LB breaking on the ball quickly. You could probably make a case for Stallworth as well, but that would have been just as tight a fit as the Davis throw. He would have needed to get it over the defender in midfield, but not overthrow Stallworth and put it into the safeties hands. He would have also had to have been careful not to lead Stallworth into the other safety and a massive hit. So maybe we could rule the Stallworth throw out.
But all in all, Rex likes to back himself to make the downfield throw. He was going through his progressions, saw Davis have a gap and pulled the trigger. Davis looked like he was going to cut inside underneath the safety, and had he done that, he probably would have scored and we’d be praising Rex for a great throw.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
if it was cover 4...I really don't like the read
as you said, all 2 comebacks were open (moss a bit tight, and the LB jumped the route on the throw to Davis anyway). Gaffney was wide open.
Davis was the primary read. Grossman never took his eyes off of him. Even odder, Kyle had two posts that looked like they were going to overlap at the goal line, and Rex threw around the area where the coverage would converge.
I suspect this one didn’t go over well, and he was most likely supposed to progress to one of the comebacks.
Seeing the cushion the corner gave Gaffney on the comeback route . . .
Makes me sick to know Grossman forces throws into that kind of coverage, even if Fred was “suppose to cross the safety’s face.”
It was 2nd down and long, and Gaffney could have set up a manageable 3rd down, and at least give us a chance at points afterwards…
by Dammit Cerrato... on Oct 19, 2011 10:41 PM EDT reply actions
What's our 3rd down percentage in that game?
It was terrible. Can’t blame Rex for not having any confidence on 3rd down. This one’s on Davis. That was my first reaction too when I saw it live.
Rex is to blame for all the other interceptions though.
Yeah, but you can't tell me he was thinking about their 3rd down percentages
and said to himself “well shit, might as well fit it in there” (That’s what she said)
Rex should have had this thought: “trying to fit it in there like I am about to right now has bitten me in the ass so many times before”
Given it was a two score game and a FG wouldn’t have changed that, we may have had 2 downs after that 2nd and 12 to convert for the 1st/TD. I don’t know if they kick it there.
Davis did have Coleman behind him, but the drag by Stallworth looks as if he’s bringing that deep safety into the play as well, the window on that play for the guys attacking the middle looks really small, Grossman just needs to stop being Grossman, thinking he can do things Aaron Rodgers can do.
I wouldn’t say it was a bad read by Rex, the play was there in that small window, but the throw was late, the coverage was there to make a play on the ball, I just think the decision to throw it was more of a forceful decision, than a smart one. You know Grossman had to of had his play up to that point in the back of his mind, he prolly thought he needed to do something big rather than play it safe.
by Dammit Cerrato... on Oct 20, 2011 1:04 AM EDT up reply actions
*and I'm not taking away that Davis fouled up
Just from the stills alone, you can see that he shouldn’t have sat like he did, but instead checked off Coleman behind him. Davis should have had better awareness of the defenders around him, maybe he thought Coleman wasn’t going to bite like he did and thought he had to sit if Stallworth’s coming across the middle himself.
I just fault Rex because I feel like he should have seen that the middle/right hash wasn’t as open as he thought. But you’re right, I’d prolly put this one as the least worst of the 4.
The other 3:
- Up for grabs
- Under thrown by 5 yards easily
- across his body, rolling to the left, to a receiver who wasn’t coming back at all
THOSE were bad pickles
by Dammit Cerrato... on Oct 20, 2011 1:10 AM EDT up reply actions
none of us know exactly how they run the patterns in practice, so it is hard to judge.
"Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say."-Robert Hunter
Thank you!
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
in defence of Young
He was being hit by Landry as he was throwing it. Actually, I don’t really care about Young, I just wanna give Landry credit for having two impactful plays (and hitting the QB twice), in that series.
(you like what I did with my title?)
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
by CJHutch on Oct 19, 2011 11:44 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
I see what you did there
Quite colourful you are
by Dammit Cerrato... on Oct 20, 2011 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions
I believe I slipped a colour in one of comments this morning...
I like it.
"Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say."-Robert Hunter
I see what you guys are doing there!
And I like it a lot! You might say these are some of my favourite comments!
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
How sad it is that I didn't realise the joke until UK put it in bold,
and even then it took a couple more minutes to work it out haha! Well my mum always said I was special!
Nailed it
This was the play that killed us. I still blame Rex and not Fred on this because the ball never should have gone to Fred over the middle anyways.
When life gives you potatoes, make potato salad.
When life gives you shit, make shit salad.
I think this is a terrible read and throw by Grossman
Fred Davis had 3 defenders within 5 yards of him, and another two (who were covering Stallworth, I think) converging
The ball should of gone to the outside where he had 1 on 1 match ups.
The timing of the play was horrific as well as the down and distance, a safe short yard pass would of put us into 3rd and manageable and keep us in field goal range
Beck to the future!
by The Shanaplan on Oct 20, 2011 4:57 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
System related question.
In Kyle’s system, how reliant are we on the QB forcing throws into tight spots? My initial reaction to all of the INTs was “don’t throw into heavy traffic” (and several other words that I’m too polite to type here).
Is it a fact of the new NFL (bigger, faster players, better defensive schemes) that pass catchers just aren’t open that often? Is it a given in the league now that QBs are just forced to throw passes that, in the past, they wouldn’t risk?
I keep hearing how Kyle’s system gets receivers open (and there is some evidence of this), but we’re watching games where Rex has thrown INTs that could’ve been caught by more than one defender.
Also, how much autonomy does the QB in Kyle’s system have? Should we blaming Grossman for brain-farts, or is he being given the green light to force these throws?
StephenBeagrie on Twitter and Facebook.
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by Stephen Beagrie on Oct 20, 2011 6:28 AM EDT reply actions
I think its more...
of a case of Kyle telling his QB’s to play with confidence and back themselves to make the throws that they see, rather than relying on them forcing throws.
So Kyle put trust in Rex to make the throws he thinks he can make, I don’t think its a case of Grossman being given a green light to force throws.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
Yep
Windows open and close very quickly, on this play I would say there were 2 windows that opened up and could have been hit. Davis actually had a chance here and like others said this was not the worst rex grossman mistake.
If davis wants to keep getting the ball he is going to have to attack the throw and not be passive about it. There was that other int on the deep ball where he waited for it to float into his bread basket. You gotta go up and snatch it davis.
The Beat Box aka skins secondary.
On the play before young came in...
Does anyone think Vick might have been knocked out..I was watching the highlights on comcast on demand .. I didn’t notice during the game but as the camera pans over to Vick on the ground..you see his legs twitch…reminded me of when someone gets knocked out boxing…IMO they had to bring Vick back in..if he’s out..we win that game..not that it would’ve stopped that third or fourth int..but I think we could’ve gotten more offensive time to score with the defense having Young in there …
by BuzzBee on Oct 20, 2011 8:17 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
My Conspiracy Theory on That...
Vick didn’t know where he was for a moment…but the Eagles said “dirt in the eye” so they could get Vick back in the game and avoid criticism for potentially ignoring a concussion. Seriously, I doubt dirt in your eye makes it so your teammates have to hold you up on your own two feet, and Vick was being held up.
However, he probably just needed a few moments to recover, and he did (unfortunately).
by The Agent C 83 on Oct 21, 2011 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions
Cover 4 or Cover 2
Either way I don’t think that ball should have been thrown there. Frankly it is EXTREMELY difficult to throw a 15-20 yard pass down the middle against a Cover 2 scheme and just about IMPOSSIBLE in a Cover 4 scheme. Reason #1 for not making that throw – unless he has pinpoint accuracy and a rocket arm, there is just way too much time for the deep safetys to break on that ball and there were two possible outcomes there, an INT or Fred Davis gets his head taken off, neither of which I like very much. I will say this, Rex didn’t see much Cover 2 all game, so he may not have been expecting Cover 2 or Cover 4, when much of the game he was seeing cover 0 and cover 1.
One thing to consider on the coaches cam views
Notice that at the moment they are highlighting, it appears Rex is just at the release point of his throw. I would like to see what he saw right at the moment of decision, not after he committed to the throw.
by The Agent C 83 on Oct 21, 2011 12:58 AM EDT up reply actions
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