The Redskins Quarterback is irrelevant, the offensive Identity is at risk.
by UkRedskin on Oct 17, 2011 3:50 PM EDT
in Redskins Analysis
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PrintLets get off the much discussed topic of John Beck vs Rex Grossman, at least for a little bit (I'll potentially do a Beck breakdown later in the week). For me, the whole conversation is irrelevant because we knew coming into the season neither guy was going to lead us to glory, and neither guy was our franchise QB of the future that we've been desperately lacking for a good few years now. We entered the season with the offensive identity being a run-heavy team, that will control the clock and tire out defence's. The whole offence builds from that. We'll run stretch run plays left and right all day long, with the occasional play-action bootleg from it. That stems out to other play-action passes, and regular pass plays. But the base for all that to work is the run game and that is where our major problem lies right now.
Somewhat overshadowed from the QB situation yesterday, was Kory Lichtensteiger's injury. He's out for the season with an ACL/MCL injury. LT Trent Williams is likely to be out for a couple of weeks as well after leaving the game with a high ankle injury, and leaving the stadium with his foot in a boot. This is a HUGE blow for us. The stretch run to the left was our best run. I believe (without fully rechecking the stats) that we we're averaging around 5 yards a carry to left. We ran the ball just 14 times yesterday (including Beck's two runs) and I counted 5 of those plays we're to the left. Now granted, we lost Kory L early (in the first quarter) but we still had Trent Williams in the game at that point. The other big problem was that we ran hardly any stretch run plays, especially considering the Eagles run a "Wide 9" Dline that relies on LBs to come up and make plays. Lets have a look.
I'm very surprised we didn't run the stretch that often against this front. It begs us to us the TE to let the DE rush wide before trap blocking him and sealing him of; while the tackle can chip the defensive tackle to help the guard get a seal on him before getting to the second level against the LB, as we see here:
Obviously this is just in theory, but I would have thought we'd have seen it a lot more often, but instead, on the odd occasion we did run, it wasn't a stretch. Instead we saw things that we don't usually run, like pulling Guards and a power run game, which just isn't us.
Chris Chester is the pulling Guard here. It allows LT Sean Locklear to help Will Montgomery (now at LG) to block the DT. The point of a pulling guard is to strengthen one side of the line and run behind him with power.
But as you can see here, despite Chester pulling into the area, the Eagles wall it off and for Torain to make a play himself. Our traditional run game is all about the Oline doing their job and the RB staying disciplined by following what the Oline gives him. In this situation, Torain has nothing from the Oline and is forced to improvise, something our RB's aren't coached to do.
Torain actually has a little hole that he could potentiallycut through. But he gets caught up inside as Montgomery struggles to push the DT back and make room for him, and is eventually tackled for a 1 yard gain. Here's another unusual run for us, again by Torain and again up the middle.
On this play, we have the LT (Locklear), the Center (Erik Cook), and the RT (Jammal Brown) all ignoring the Dline to try and get to the second level and block the LBs. We leave 2 TE's, a FB and both Guards to block the Dline.
Both TE's actually do a decent job holding up the DE's considering they are TE's. But the two Guards both get blown up by the DT's. I talked earlier about the wide 9 formation. A key to the wide 9 is that both DT's are capable of bulldozing up the middle, making it hard for Guards to block them 1-on-1, and that happens here.
Chester recovers a little bit in that he manages to bring his guy to the ground with him, meaning he can't make the play. But it does close the area Torain has to run into. Montgomery is really struggling at LG to maintain his block. Also notice at the second level, Locklear misses his block on the LB.
In the end, a combination of the DT and the LB make the tackle on Torain, who has no chance to get anything out of the play.
This just isn't what our offence is about. It will be interesting to see what they do with the Oline without Kory L and Trent Williams. Brown has said he would move to LT while Williams is out, and its something we may want to consider, however Locklear has been getting all the back-up LT reps, and Brown hasn't practised at LT since he's been here. I wonder what happens at LG as well. Montgomery is so much better at Center, so do they keep him at C and promote someone else to LG, or just go with him at LG and Cook at C? How we overcome these Oline problems is what will make or break this team this season. The sooner we can get a rhythm between the Olineman going, and get back to running the stretch run, the better. Once that happens, then we can worry about what the QB is doing. Until then it doesn't matter if Beck or Grossman is at QB because the whole foundation of our offence isn't working. What do you guys think?
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I think
I’m glad you went with offence instead of offense. To hell with the critics.
I also think we need SOMETHING to happen to our running game" outside of Torrain’s performance against the Rams, it’s been sub-par. Part of that is due to the fact that Kyle seems to be allergic to calling running plays. After week one, when Shanny said they would “stick to the run no matter how many yards they’re getting”, they’ve pretty much abandoned it after just 14-20 tries. Not a winning formula.
Where do they teach you to talk like this? In some Panama City "Sailor wanna hump-hump" bar, or is it getaway day and your last shot at his whiskey? Sell crazy someplace else, we're all stocked up here.
If people read UK's posts...
..and the only thing they have to say is criticizing “offence” and “defence”, then they should just excuse themselves from the thread. He puts a lot of effort into these posts, and we’re lucky to have UK’s contributions.
I can’t even digest this thread at the moment. though My outlook on our running game is pretty bleak. We knew it was a house of cards without having any notable depth on the line. And with our depleted O-line, now Kyle has an excuse to continue ignoring the running game.
Damn, I need a drink.
I think a big problem is we never see consistency from the run blocking.
So it makes it hard to have those drives that other teams have where they go 12 plays with 7 or more runs. Our blocking is so inconsistent, that we might be lucky to have one good and one average blocking play out of every 7. Even in games like Arizona and St. Louis when our rushing attack worked, it was more due to the RB making them miss than our blocking controlling the LOS.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
That's the big problem with the zone-scheme
If one man is off the pace even slightly, the whole play could be killed. In a man scheme, if one man is getting beat you can do other things to help, like chipping, trap blocking, etc. In the zone-scheme, we just have to pick ourselves up and try to get back on pace.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
I think we need to get our passing game
to at least a moderately respectable level. There are 10 Eagles within five yards of the LOS, it’s hard to run against a front like that.
Of course we do.
But it makes it a lot easier for an average QB if the LBs aren’t sure if the play is a run or a pass, forcing them to hesitate.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
I think you missed the point a bit.
I agree we do need a QB, but at this point in time, it doesn’t matter because the core of our offence – the run game – isn’t working. Everything we do builds off a successful run game, so it doesn’t matter if Rex or Beck is back there, the offence won’t get anywhere until the run game gets going again.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
Or
the other way around. Grossman is in the equation of opposing teams game plans. You can’t disregard Grossman any more than you can equate Beck and Grossman. I saw 2 things in the Eagles game by Beck; a bomb and a run by the QB. That changes the way other teams game plan. That alone opens up the potential for a running game. if teams have no fear of Grossman throwing deep, they can play up on the Redskins. People who play this game that Grossman is not really the problem, Shanahan didn’t agree. He benched Grossman. Lets see what happens the rest of the season before Grossman gets discounted.
by hambonejackson on Oct 17, 2011 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions
What was happening yesterday was...
That the Eagles saw that we couldn’t run the ball, so they knew the ball was forced into Grossman’s hands. They felt the best way to disrupt Rex is blitz him, which is why we saw a lot of people at the LOS. And it worked, they had Rex under a fair amount of pressure when sending an extra blitzer and obviously, we know what happened with Rex. Beck did a good job of avoid pressure with his mobility, but a couple of plays from him isn’t going to open up the run game. They can just play contain on him, and see if he has the ability to read zones or the arm to throw people open.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
its the play calling
we are running too many stretch plays. doing to many qb roll outs we just aint built for it yet. shanahans system does not work anymore…. least not for these guys. maybe a few linemen instead of all the drafted FBS, wrs, rbs they have got the last 2 years would have been better. they cant blame players dont know the system game this year….. you were right though. they didnt attack the weakness of the eagles right side and after their own left side blew out…. its just a bad game plan.. even the ravens x coach said these players gotta forget the game plan and start drawing up plays in the dirt lol.
by munson21502 on Oct 17, 2011 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I appreciate the run breakdowns...
Not enough was talked about this concerning the QB discussions. Nice Post.
Nice post, as usual. I agree.
My give a damn broke.
by davesomethin on Oct 17, 2011 5:09 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Rams cut Sims Walker
he was a popular name around here this offseason. Bring him in and drop Banks? I gotta say, Sims Walker looked pretty shitty against us.
They wouldn't drop Banks for him.
Stallworth maybe, but not Banks.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
receivers aren't the issue...in fact we have too many as it is
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
Appreciate your posts, UK !
I fully agree with your emphasis on the run game, especially if you have a shitty QB. We managed to rush for a total of 42 yards against the worst rush defense in the league.
Who was our best rusher in YPC ? Beck, who account for a full 1/3 of our rushing yards. How sad is that ?
And that came
From just 2 runs, only 1 of which was designed for Beck to run, the other was a bootleg that he didn’t see anyone open.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
1/3 of our yards and
the only TD
"Pretty sad
I think rocky is their worst lb.and yet he would easily be our best.
They’re in first place with good lb’s we’re on last place with rat shit lb’s
I think there is a correlation there…" courtesy of BGN with special thanks to Saidrick
Great post as usual! I fear in the weeks to come, that we will see this game as a pivotal moment
when I turned off the game yesterday, the first thing I thought was "we are now at a season scoring average of 18, and I think coaching is really starting to look shaky"
Remember folks, the coaching staff have two weeks to prepare or this game.
This was a division game at home, usurer as fact should not lose games like this coming up on your bye. week.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
Please ignore typos, disabled person disgruntled with dictation software
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Oct 17, 2011 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Both Landry and Fletch admitted we came out flat and uninspired...
I have no clue how a team with our history of collapses in recent years comes out of a bye week at 3-1 with a chance to bury a hated division foe who almost hung 60 on them the year before and plays admittedly flat and lifeless. Reports were that practices, the locker room, and even blow-hard Shanny were more loose than ever this past week….WTF?? Did they accomplish somthing that I missed?
Serves them right for their lack of preperation and failure, again, to take the next step and really prove that “this is a different team” than years past.
Heres to hoping they can learn from this and get back to the grind.
Hail to 'Em
by SkinsaneAsylum on Oct 17, 2011 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Great Post
Surprising to see us not stick to the stretch run against the Eagles. I’m not sure why we would go away from our bread and butter – maybe the Shannys figured the Eagles would gameplan against the stretch so they wanted to show them something new to throw them off track. If that was the case, I think its an example of overthinking and getting too cute. I thought our strech run game would match up well against Philly and thought Torain would have a much better day than he did. But having TWilliams and Lich go down did not help matters either. Oh well, on to Carolina…
Good post as usual UK
But on playcalling, i think we do run the ball. We just dont do it at the right TIME. KS is not good at calling situational plays.
West Springfield Spartans OUTSIDE LB #47
HTTR
by SpartanFS47 on Oct 17, 2011 6:33 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Important request
You started her, but I have what I think would be a revealing request.
Can you do a breakdown of our base formations? In the 3 games, I have seen us go into no back sets or motion backs out of the back field increasingly. This gives away out play unnecessarily. We don’t even seem to run quick routes.
It has also become apparent that if Niles Paul is in, we are running.
I could go on. But it feels like our installs are incredibly predictable and it is hurting us. But that is based on the eyeball test.
Can you do a breakdown of what you see are key packages and formations we use and what it tells us about Kyle’s performance this year?
by DavidDunn on Oct 17, 2011 6:56 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
First line should say here.
iPhone argh.
Great post btw!!
by DavidDunn on Oct 17, 2011 7:02 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I agree
the play calling is way too predictable based on our personnel and how we line up. In addition to the sets you mentioned, when we go two TE’s on the line we are almost guaranteed to run. When we go 3 or more receivers and none go in motion to the line we are going to pass. If one of them come in motion (usually Paul or Gaffney) it is a run.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
It's a really cool concept.
But it would be one hell of a breakdown to do. I mean, we have 4/5 base formations that we run out of, so I’d have to do at least 2/3 plays from each formation to show what we tend to do from them. Not going to rule it out, because I really like the idea, but I feel like it might be too much work, and it would probably be a ridiculously long post that nobody would bother to read.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
Also noticed the same thing with Paul
Every time I’ve seen him on the field, he’s been run blocking (does a pretty good job as well) but can kind of sell the play a bit.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
yeah, it's stuff like that they need to take advantage on
come out early against the Panthers with Paul bunched up close like he is going to block, and go play action.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
haha i didn't want to suggest that, because I know how big of a project that would be
I just wanted to agree with the previous poster, of how that is really killing this team.
Steveospeak - Content Manager of Fanspeak.com
It would be a huge project.
Would probably take me a few days, but the main concern is that it would be way too long for anyone to actually want to sit and read through. I mean, this post is 1000 words long, and that’s short in comparison to my last few posts that have been around 2000 words. I think that this idea would potentially be 4000-5000 words, that with pictures and people would just get bored.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
to be fair...I would be fine
with just breaking down the empty back field sets and the 2 TE on the line sets to demonstrate the point….and then we could see if people like it enough…
I would read it
But I do understand it would be long…if I had NFL Rewind I would offer to help…
but it is a shame that I can be at the stadium and literally call 4 out 5 plays just based on the package and formation, usually I can even get the primary target right…that can’t be good for someone like myself with some football experience including a majority related to play reading on Madden. Kyle is a professional for goodness sakes…
Request
UK, I love these breakdowns you have been doing. Excellent work, really. I wanted to request that you take a peak at some of the Cover Zero that we have been running on D. Obviously, we mix it up from this base look often. What I would like to breakdown is the differing types of looks we can show out of that base formation and the pros and cons in certain situations. I feel like we saw more cover zero than earlier in the season this past game vs the eagles, which honeslty has me scratching my head as this seems extremely dangerous against a speedy team like the eagles on offence (shout out).
Please share your two cents as it may go a long way to help me to sleep at night and allow me to stop dreading that Haslett is running cover zero this often just to justify his 3&21 call in the Dallas game…
HHTR
Hail to 'Em
I do have plans to do a Cover 0 breakdown.
I’ll try to get to it this week, we’ll see if I do a Beck breakdown or not.
This may surprise some people on here, but I’m actually a fan of the cover 0. I wont get into it now, I’ll save that for the breakdown, but I do like the cover 0. It is a risk, but it’s paid off more than it’s hurt us.
Follow me on Twitter: @UkRedskin1 feel free to give suggestions on what you'd like to see broken down each week.
Thanks
I am with you in that I do like it, even with its risks. I love Landry in the box and it scares the hell out of most offenses, even one led by Vick with all those weapons.
I think that it is crafty to keep showing it and force the offense to adjust to it, followed by checking out of it and dropping in to any combination of zone or zone blitz or what have you. It dictates the speed and play calling of the offense, to some extent.
Obviously, it has its risks (dead horse) but what formation doesnt have a weakness?
Hail to 'Em
by SkinsaneAsylum on Oct 17, 2011 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions
I like it...except when you have two fast receivers and a RB that
can make the first tackler miss like the eagles..
I am pretty sure we didn’t run it as much yesterday as we did against the rams, but it would be a great breakdown. The 3rd and 21 is really a good play to breakdown, including the protection change made by Romo at the line, which I personally would have used to kill the blitz, if Fletcher had the authority…
can’t wait
Cover Zero
Every coach has to depend on his best players. This includes Jim Haslett being able to depend on his All Pros Orakpo and DHall to not make mental errors on big plays, such as two recent, notable cover 0 plays. I can’t wait to see what your analysis reveals, as I could be off base on this.
by Belly Kilmer on Oct 17, 2011 9:33 PM EDT up reply actions
What I noticed from watching the last 6 weeks is that when we’ve got the ball that every play looks incredibly difficult as if there is some herculian effort to muster any forward progress. Same thing with the Vikings and Jets right now…it just looks like they’re trying 10 times harder to get half as much accomplished.
I don’t think that it’s talent, I don’t think that it’s coaching, but something is wrong and it’s pretty significant.
by It's Always Sunny in DC on Oct 17, 2011 7:46 PM EDT reply actions
losing the left side of your OL can be pretty significant
…while also causing the effect you described above, commonly referred to as “poor execution” in any number of areas across the entire offense
Hail to 'Em
by SkinsaneAsylum on Oct 17, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Running the stretch play relies on the backside holding their blocks. I noticed our left guard not being able to hold his block long enough on plays to the right.
We need to focus on who is going to play left guard. We should keep our center at his position. With Becks mobility we should be able to keep defenses off balance if we get A. Armstrong back. I would be more concerned if Rex was at qb still. The key to this offense line going forward will be the left guard position. We now have a mobile athletic qb. This changes everything once Armstrong gets back healthy. We have better receivers then you would think. They have been limited by a qb that could not make all the throws.
Do you know of something official on the QB situation
I would be more concerned if Rex was at qb still.
How do you know he is not.
excellent post indeed!
We need to panic and trade for some zone-blocking backup
linemen. This is bad timing, right after the bye, but at least it
happened before the trade deadline. Time for the front office
to earn their pay.
Yes, Kyle Shanahan should stick with the run. Same old story.
I’m so sick of Rex Grossman. Can we trade him for a bag of
peanuts?
by formerbroncosfan on Oct 17, 2011 10:29 PM EDT reply actions
Injuries
The injuries killed our running game. I wish you used a different example to illustrate your point. You are showing a run near the red zone. The thing that really stuck out to me is that ten guys on the defense were within five yards of the ball. Did they play it similar to this most of the day? They don’t really seem to be respecting the play action at all. We are also bringing the far side receiver in to block to early. He is doing nothing to indicate he might be running a route. I didn’t like a lot of the play calls, but the injuries to the O-line put us in a bad spot.
Pass to Set-up The Run
We are incapable of doing this, at least with Grossman. We were facing 8-10 guys in the box all day. The Eagles were showing us Cover 1 and Cover 0 all game long. Any NFL team can stop the run if they gameplan to specifically take that away. That is what the Eagles did to us and we had no answer. You CANNOT be one-dimensional in this league and have success. When a team LOADS the box to take away the run, you MUST be able to make them pay over the top. Rex was incapable of making them pay. We will see a lot more defenses like this to take away the short plays around the LOS. We are going to have to execute the intermediate and deep passing game well in order to set up the run again.
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