HH Oline Gurus, Please advise

by Pommylee on Jan 18, 2011 1:14 AM EST

G'day All

(btw I have decided G'day All is my new default opening as I always struggle to think how to start Fan Posts)

With my beloved Skins once again being out of the playoffs, I have been going back watching what games of ours I have on DVR from the season in a play by play basis trying to look for strengths that maybe underutilized and spotting weaknesses that I did not see when watching the game live, where the flow of the game and the result overtake my analytical powers.

Now let me make it clear, I am no Football expert, anything but, however I do like to think I am learning and I do a lot of study to try to back up my rudimentary understandings of the game.

Which brings me to Stephon Heyer

Many of us, me included have spent a lot of time bashing Heyer about the head, and for good reason over the last couple of years. But I noticed a couple of things on the replays that have me thinking he is potentially someone who could contribute for us if he was just used correctly.

Watching the Philly game, I saw him lay two brutal blocks, one on our first touchdown opening up a whole for Torain to run through to open the scoring and one later on another run where he shifted inside and just pulverized the DT.

So I started watching just Heyer whenever the Camera Angle allowed and now after watching a bunch of games I have decided that any time he needs to backpedal and set up for Pass Protection he is vulnerable, we all know about the Constant False Starts and also how often he is beaten, but it seems to me that even when he doesn’t give up a sack or a pressure and keeps his man off the QB, he is always the linemen who is pushed the furthest back into the Pocket, and he is always struggling.

However, when he goes forward and helps the running game, man can he open some massive holes and he is aggressive too, he doesn’t push them out of the way and feel the job is done, this dude genuinely forces his opponent back 5-10 yards past the line of scrimmage at times.

So I was wondering, is Heyer not really a Guard being forced to play tackle because of his size. I mean even in Pass Protection, it seems to me a Guard is not required to retreat as far as a Tackle so it would take away his nervousness (and consequently some False Start Penalty’s) but also he would actually be able to engage his man earlier, at the LOS rather than retreating and giving the Defensive player a 2 step attack on him, that the Tackle has to contend with.

Now I am just a dumb Aussie, who is basically self taught when it comes to understanding the NFL and the game of Football. So I am sure that technically I have made some major blunders in my assessments. \

For example

Maybe Guards are meant to retreat as far as Tackles on Passing Plays
Maybe Tackles are meant to engage their man at the Line of Scrimmage on Passing Plays(however, our guys don’t on the evidence I have seen)

Maybe he is not the right body shape for Guard

Or maybe there are other technical reasons, why what I am saying is wrong.

Which basically why I have written this post, I know there are some guys on here who do know their stuff when it comes to O-Line (BIgFat OLineman for one) so I would love to hear your thoughts on Heyer, and any advice on what I should be looking for when going through my rudimentary analysis of Line Play.

Just one word of caution, any condescending answers, or tone that is condescending will automatically make me get my back up and I will likely ignore your points, if you need any example of what constitutes condescending, refer to any LJP post in the history of this site :)

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Comments

It's a good and fair question Pommy

First with Heyer, he has the long arms and size needed to play OT, but he lacks the footwork, technique and smarts. He is, what NFL scout referr to as a “waist bender”, which means he does not sit back in his stance(like a squat), and use his hips very well. In pass blocking, hips, legs and hand placement, as well as good feet are what seperates good OT’s from poor ones. Heyer is stiff in the lowe half, which brings me back to the waist bender comment. Because he needs to het lower than his opponent, he will have the tendency to bend at the waist to lower his body angle, instead of sitting back in his stance, dropping his hips, and generating leverage by using the lower half of his body. A great example of great technique would be Joe Thomas from Cleveland. He has some of the best technique thats I’ve seen from an OT in quite a while(not to mention a brutal hand punch). His footwork is excellent, and his hand placement is nearly perfect. He uses a slide or kick step(which is where the outside leg kicks or slides back in pass pro, to help the OT gain depth and leverage on speed rushing DE’s) to perfection. These are some of the same areas where Heyer struggles as a pass blocker.

To answer your question, I believe Heyer could be a successful guard, as it would not require him to be one-on-one with speed edge rushers. Some of his flaws in pass protection can be hidden at G. I also believe he does a good job at getting to the next level, which could be a huge assett at G. He shows good power at the poin of attack as a run blocker, and with more teams switching to the 3-4, he has the size and power to help double team NT’s, and them roll to the second level to get on linebackers. He does not however do a good job at cut blocking, so this could hurt him playing G.

Hope this helps.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Jan 18, 2011 9:41 AM EST reply actions

good write-up tiller

I’ve been waiting for Heyer to shed that belly fat and build-up his bird legs. He could use lowering his center of gravity big time (in his physical size and playing technique). He looks wobbly out there playing too high and at times getting controlled by smaller players. He clearly has room to improve at OT, and I’d hate to see him move to G (we have like 15 guards and no tackles). Do you know if he has a good work ethic? I recall hearing that his work ethic was a little shaky a few years ago, but I have heard nothing since.

by liger99 on Jan 18, 2011 3:47 PM EST up reply actions

He worked hard under Bugel

to un-seat Jansen a few years ago. Reports were Buges really like the kid. As for his work ethic now, I don’t really know.

Are you not entertained?

by Tiller56 on Jan 18, 2011 4:07 PM EST up reply actions

one thing that might be bad for him moving to G

is that he is a natural born T. I have played tackle basically my entire football life, and whenever they wanted me to move, i hated it. Tackles are usually more athletic, obviously, and taller, which isnt necessarily a good thing at G. the one concern i would have for Heyer moving to guard is that the dlinemen would be able to get leverage on him in 1-on-1 situations. if big guys like him start leaning forward in PP, then its very easy for the DT to do a push-pull on him and fly by him, but if he tries to sit back, hes got little leverage as we’ve seen. if he can just focus on bending at his waist he should be great, he is a big boy with good strength and we wouldnt have to worry about some big fat DT trying to run around him, since hes so athletic. if he can just focus on getting to at least the same height as the pass rushers head then he’ll be just fine. plus a lot of the time hell have C help, and with this zone blocking scheme with PA, it will use his strengths as he wont have to step back, just sideways and earhole the bastards. Can you imagine if we get a good center, jay ratliff going against those two guys.

by skinsrgods on Jan 18, 2011 10:26 PM EST up reply actions

I think both your and tillers analysis are spot on.

I always try to keep in mind that Joe bugle loved Heyer for precisely what he can do as a power Blocker. I think the intention under Gibbs (who has always tended towards max protect schemes) was to keep a tight end to his side on pass plays.
I’m not sure which Shanahan is thinking with Heyer, because as tiller points out, his substandard footwork is not a good fit for zone blocking. And he is substandard in the football smarts area, that doesn’t bode well for him making the switch to guard permanently-the center and guards are kind of key in line calls. Although after saying that, he did fill in well at right guard for one game. I would’ve thought that Shanahan might have used those last three games to "evaluate"Heyer at guard.
It will be a very interesting and critical off-season and training camp this year-let’s hope it doesn’t get screwed up with a work stoppage, that would really set this team back more than others.

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 18, 2011 11:43 AM EST reply actions

Run blocking does seem to be Heyer's strength. In the 2009 Football Outsiders stats for offensive lines where run efficiency is rated

by direction of runs the Skins ranked 5th in the NFL off of right tackle which happens to be the starting position of Heyer most of the season. That was the only direction that the Skins ranked over 20th in 2009.

A side note not specifically addressing Heyer, was that in 2009 the Skins ranked 18th in “stuffed” (runs stopped at or behind the line of scrimmage). Whereas in 2010 the Skins OL ranked 31st in runs stuffed (25% or 1 out of every 4 running plays). A poster at another site saw this as a failure of at least one blocker to fail in his assignment. Links http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2009 and http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol respectively.

by Jefferson1935 on Jan 18, 2011 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs

Interesting analysis on Heyer - thanks

I know virtually nothing about line play except what I read on HH, a lot coming from Tiller. So I’m glad he answered the post. He has recommended using Heyer at guard a number of times, despite what others called the wrong body shape. One little point from a non-expert – it would seem to me that a tackle has to be able to move back better, and have better sideways type footwork, than a guard, because he is facing fast DEs who will try to go around him, push him aside using leverage, whereas a guard is in closer quarters, facing a guy who will try to just run over him and push him back.

by Donnio1234 on Jan 18, 2011 11:54 AM EST reply actions

I like the post and comments by others

I also don’t know much about line play other than what I see and figure out on my own and what I read on here. I can easily see Heyer doesn’t have the footwork capable for OT but the little time at G he seemed to do better. And with waht I read from you guys it sounds like a better fit for him but he would definately have to work on techniques that a G uses so he could get better at the position. Great post and lets see what the offseason brings if there is one. Hopefully!!

by The Red End on Jan 18, 2011 2:34 PM EST reply actions

Tiller was pretty spot on

When I looked at Heyer, I look at him as an exceptional athlete, strong, and reasonably fast for his size, and just big. He’s got minor faults all around technique wise, but his biggest fault is his footwork. His footwork is too poor in pass blocking, thus, he is looking to get any jump he possibly can. Now, the key to pass blocking is this: a strong kick step and staying on the balls of your feet. Flat footed guys will get beat by moves (spin, rip, swim, etc.,) and without a strong kick step, you’ll never get infront of your guy, which is crucial to the pass block. Heyer brutally lacks this kick step. I promise you in about 75% of all sacks that any tackle gives up, it’s because his initial kick step is poor, and he turns his hips too quickly. When you turn your hips before you are parallel with the quarterback, it allows the DE to get by. If you do it parallel, you’ll take the guy in a circle. Basically, Heyer lacks this; however, guard would be a much better fit because the kick step is mostly important only to set up the base of the lineman. Footwork also comes into run blocking so that the lineman gets squared up, gets engaged, and gets leverage and the move to guard would not change much, except that he’d be going against DTs most of the time, who are slower, and line up closer, and want to go through, not around the lineman. A move to guard would much better make up for his lack of footwork because guard is more about power where tackle is more about finesse and technique, in run and pass situations.

by BigOLinemen on Jan 18, 2011 5:56 PM EST reply actions

A general Thankyou

Hey guys

So far, this is all exactly what I have been looking for, thanks heaps, some good tips for my future study, and good advice all around. Plus a complete absence of condescending tone.

A big thankyou to all

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Jan 18, 2011 11:33 PM EST reply actions

The assessment of Heyer has been right on target

But from the teams point of view, he needs to actually produce somewhere. Why not tell him straight up that he needs to improve or he’s going to be moved to guard? As it is he’s not even that good of a backup OT.

by aFan4Life on Jan 19, 2011 8:26 AM EST reply actions

I really think they should just go ahead and move him there

I think at his size, he has reached where he is going to get footwork and leverage wise. He may be able to make some adjustments, but I doubt he’ll ever have a tackle’s footwork. The coaches should move him to guard because I think he is much better there.

by BigOLinemen on Jan 19, 2011 4:49 PM EST up reply actions