What NY Jet Would You Want Most on the Redskins Roster? We Debate.
by Kevin Ewoldt on Aug 25, 2010 10:59 AM EDT
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PrintKen and I picked our players without talking with each other first (with the rule that Darrelle Revis is not on the board). To me it was between Brick and Mangold...and I took Ferguson.
Kevin: There are a lot of good players on the Jets to choose from, but it's impossible to pass on a book-end Tackle, especially one of the quality and size of 26-year old Pro-Bowler, D'Brickashaw Ferguson. There's no doubt Casey Rabach is near the end of his career, but top-quality Centers can be had late in the 1st round of a draft whereas Tackles cannot. You don't think Shanahan would love Ferguson, the 4th overall pick out of UVA? Brick is a lean 6'6', 310 lbs and ran a 4.99 40. The Redskins right-side of the line has been inexcusable for too long and Jammal Brown already has lingering injuries. The Skins 1st round draft pick next year can be used on PSU Center, Stefen Wisniewski, or USC Center, Kristofer O'Dowd, with even the possibility of trading back for a later pick. If the future is now, then the right side needs help. It's improved, but the backup situation is as dire as Mark Brunell's portfolio.
"Manlove for Mangold"
Ken: Over the years, positions have evolved in a variety of ways. Some positions have exploded in size, some in speed, some in strength, and some in all of the above. The center position is no exception, as these guys are bigger and stronger now than they have ever been. That said, one thing that has not changed about the center position over the years is the unique mix of nastiness and intelligence that it takes to be great there. Think about Jeff Bostic for a moment. Of all the Hogs, he is said to have been the meanest, most ornery one in the bunch. It was Bostic that famously told Randy White we were coming at him again, and again...and again in that 1983 NFC Championship. Centers call out protections and have to know pretty much everything the quarterback knows. They read the defense at the line of scrimmage and set up the line to account for blitzes, overloads, etc. In football, if you are strong up the middle (on offense and defense) you can win.
Nick Mangold is arguably the best center in the game today. A Pro Bowler in 2008 and 2009, and an All-Pro selection in 2009, Mangold has made all the line calls since he took over the center duties from Kevin Mawae as a rookie. He anchors one of the best run-blocking lines in the NFL and if you watch "Hard Knocks", you have seen his daily battles with Kris Jenkins (not exactly a slouch on the defensive line). I have long been pining for a return to greatness at the center position for the Redskins. Casey Rabach has been a very serviceable center, and has been consistently average to just above average at the spot in his tenure with the Redskins. But a player of Mangold's caliber would be a clear upgrade at the center position, and I argue would have a large positive impact on our offense.
OK. So who wins...Ken or me?
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Nice Kenny...
Pulling at the heart strings with Bostic and the Hogs, eh? Is it too late to for me to add Brick can be what Jacoby did?
In all those battles with Dallas…Bostic didn’t have to block a single person. He was the only one not manned up. Jacoby was 6’7 315 fyi…pretty damn close to Brick.
Hogs Haven. On Twitter. And Facebook.
If you could get the best OC in the NFL with a #1 pick, everyone would have one
Ferguson is a good OT … Mangold is the best in the NFL at his position. Ferguson has been a late bloomer, and Mangold has much more of a track record of consistency. Leaving Bostic and heartstrings out of this, I go with Mangold.
Also for impact on the Redskins in two seasons, I go with Mangold
With Williams and Brown at OT, Williams is just starting out and Brown is still relatively young. Anyone who plays OL on an NFL squad is an injury risk, so while I acknowledge the concern I point out that Rabach continuing to age is more of a sure thing.
Brown is still relatively young.
Jammal Brown is 29 w/ past injuries…no spring chicken
Hogs Haven. On Twitter. And Facebook.
by Kevin Ewoldt on Aug 25, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
29 (or 31 in two years) isn't old for an OL
They tend to age better than running backs or other speed positions. I absolutely acknowledge the injury concern. Ferguson underachieved for his first few seasons and I’d be very concerned that he does not sustain last year’s performance, especially once moved from the Jets’ OL to the Redskins. I have no concern about Mangold being able to sustain his level of performance as long as he doesn’t get injured.
I wouldn't say Brown is "relatively young"
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Fair enough
Depends on your point of reference. I’m just saying that Brown is more likely to be playing a high level of football in 2012 than Casey Rabach is. That’s not my main reason for choosing Mangold over Ferguson, but it’s part of the data set.
Its still pretty old, especially with an injury plagued past. The Cowboys have the oldest line in the NFL and that average is 30. I thought Jansen and RThomas were ancient when they left here, I would of guessed 35+ and they were only like 32, and Dockery seems like an elder statesman now and he’s just 29.
by Parks Smith on Aug 25, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Choosing between those two
I’d take Mangold. And that’s coming from a UVA grad student.
I know hes coming back from an ACL injury, but Kris Jenkins would look pretty good in B&G if we’re only talking for one (i.e age and the future isn’t a key component of the argument, just current talent for the upcoming season)
Mangold, no contest
To be able to replace Kevin Mawae as a rookie says all you need to know about Mangold. Ferguson would be an upgrade at either side for the Redskins, but we are so glaringly weak in the center that you can’t pass up a top five guard or center.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
Mangold
I picked Mangold because in my opinion, I’d like to see us draft another young tackle or guard in the first round next year (RB- 2nd round) so that we had two young and developing O-linemen that would be a force for years to come. So in that scenario since next years pick could be another tackle, and on the basis of Rabach being close to the end of his career, I would love to have Mangold at center to anchor that position for the future.
Not a particularly great argument, but just an opinion for how I would manage our team/roster.
Ravens/Newsome strategy for offensive and defensive lines.
The depth that the Ravens have showed up in the preseason game with the Skins. They bring in new linemen just about every season. I don’t see your argument as a negative one. Five Ol and three or four DL – 8 or 9 players out of 44 starter spots – do need to get replenished on a regular basis.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 25, 2010 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Five Ol and three or four DL – 8 or 9 players out of 44 starter spots
8 or 9 out of 22 starters…. Its definitely a huge portion of the bodies on the field. We should be drafting someone on the OL/DL in at least one of the first 2 rounds every year. Bar none.
If I were a GM...
Since,
1. Linemen’s careers are not as long-lived as skill positions.
2. Under the old CBA a premier linemen doesn’t become available until he is generally no longer premier do to aging.
3. The game of football is won and lost in the trenches.
4. They make up more than 1/3 of a starting roster.
5. It has been proven that pro-bowl level talent is most heavily weighted for linemen more than any other skill position to the first 2 rounds.
Then,
I would draft a lineman in the first round every year. There are always gem skill position players in later rounds, and the drop-off for linemen is significant. Also, selecting a lineman is less risky than selecting another skill position because the position itself translates more naturally between college and the pros. Heisman candidate qb’s miss on making nfl rosters all the time. But a stud O-lineman? They either make it big or get injured.
+1
18 games is simply greed on the part of the owners. Football is simply too violent a game to start stretching the season out, players are going to really start dropping. By cutting recovery time you’re also adding to the long term health affects (concussions, etc). Owners don’t give a crap about that, though, because they’re not the ones getting hurt.
And if you thought watching the Colts play scrubs the last two weeks of the season a couple of years ago was bad, just wait until a team does it for 3-5 weeks!
The only change I would like to see made is to reduce preseason to 3 games (but thats not happening). I also think its rediculous that you have to play 5 preseason games if you’re in the HOF game, do the owners really need the preseason draw that bad?
by Parks Smith on Aug 25, 2010 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
teams that start out 0-4 or 0-5 are not out of it yet...
that is the spin. We are going to hear how the Titans at 0-6 would have liked to have 18 games last year. I don’t want 18 games, I’m fine with 16….just adding to the discusion. If the offer is 1.5 weeks of training camp, 2 preseason games, more money, and larger rosters the players may go for that.
The only thing positive about 18 games
Is the Super Bowl Monday would fall on a holiday.
Hogs Haven. On Twitter. And Facebook.
by Kevin Ewoldt on Aug 25, 2010 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions
I thought
that the proposal to turn the 16 games into 18 games was to convert 2 of the 4 preseason games into the regular season and only have 2 preseason games. I believe the owners are not physically trying to move the season out by 2 weeks, just convert within the current schedule.
You're correct
But when we were at the NFLPA they actually brought that up…joking or not.
Hogs Haven. On Twitter. And Facebook.
by Kevin Ewoldt on Aug 25, 2010 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I think the major TV stations want to push it out 2 weeks to matchup
with sweeps week…instead of having a three week gap between the two. If that means more money then it is going to happen.
Means one more regular season tailgate
I pay the price too you know…just as preseason games are not the same as regular season games, preseason tailgates are not as intense as regular season tailgates. My liver will pay the price but I am ready to make the appropriate sacrifices.
by Ken Meringolo on Aug 25, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd have to say Mangold
Based on the age of Rabach, the age of Mangold, and the hope that Williams and Brown will be our bookend tackles for years to come. But, if the Jets want to give us Ferguson, I certainly wouldn’t complain about it.
Kris Jenkins gets no love?
He should at least be mentioned, all things considered.
by KellRawLive on Aug 25, 2010 12:29 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Agreed...
That would go a long way towards shoreing up our D-line issues… I’d take him over Haynesworth any day of the week.
Of Course, I saw the highlight on Hard Knocks where Mangold pancaked his ass… So my vote would be Mangold First, Jenkins Second and then Ferguson.
And they stink...
worse than even we did last year.
IMHO Braylon's look extremely mediocre outside of that one season.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Kris Jenkins
would also be my pick , he is the anchor that makes that D work & would be the missing piece from our conversion to a 3-4
I agree with that
but my only concern would be for how long? He’s been in the league for a decade and is coming back from an ACL injury…
I do love Kris Jenkins
But I am all about the Offensive Line these days…we need to get that straight. We are getting there.
by Ken Meringolo on Aug 25, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Can't go wrong with the D or O-line
But I’m with you, the O-line has to come first. Anything else is more of a luxury, while the O-line is a necessity. At least in my opinion.
In a 3-4 Defence
the NT is arguably the most important player. He takes up the middle of the line shutting down the run & needs to be double teamed which is what creates the mismatch that the OLBers are trying to exploit. I hope that I am wrong, but so far I have not seen anyone who can play the NT position.
I agree
In a 3-4 defense, the NT more than likely is the most important player. However, I feel a quality LT is more important than any other position on the team, besides QB of course.
I agree with you 100 percent
I also think that LT is the most important position on the field. My point is that we have a good LT in TW, but we don’t have an NFL caliber NT & KJ is one of the best in the league
True
But if I had a choice, I’d still have to go with Mangold. I think with a (hopefully) soon to be healthy Kemo and Haynesworth, we’ll be OK at the NT position. Plus, the success of this team ultimately hinges on how well McNabb does, and the more help we give McNabb on offense, the better off the team will be in my opinion. Based on the first two preseason games, I think our D will be fine. I’m more worried about our offense. And, as Haslett has said before, he’ll switch to a 4-3 base when necessary.
Good points
& I can not believe that I am arguing against O-line. Hope that you are right about our NTs
fans stuck in the past
People, our O-line may not be the same quality as the Jets’ but O-line is far and away from our worst issue this year (assuming consistent health). Kris Jenkins was mentioned earlier in a footnote to Mangold but he is a rediculously underrated player. That man would change our defensive scheme. Our D-line is looking a little shabby this pre-season. We gave up 8.1 yds per carry to the bills who granted have some talented backs but one of the worst o-lines in the game. We only have 2 sacks (both in the 4th quarter against scrubs) so our pass rush isnt much better on paper. Kris Jenkins would be far and away the biggest addition to our team
I think it's a mistake to judge units based on the preseason
and it’s entirely possible Rabach or Hicks are worse than our DL
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Mark Sanchez
So far, he looks good and would flourish under Shanahan. Wouldn’t we want to solidify our QB position and know that we don’t have to worry about it every season like we do now? I would love some more OL, but they are more stable coming out of college. Assuming he would drive down to DC tomorrow if we were taking him right now, we already know that he’s less likely to be a bust based on his success already. But OL are more likely to succeed than first round QB’s.
he looks good
because of the running game, offensive line, and defense that has his back.
I don’t think we’d be singing the same tune if he came here.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Sanchez
Sanchez hasn’t looked all that great thus far. Based on most reports, he’s looked inconsistent and average at best, so he definitely wouldn’t be my number 1 choice if I had to pick one Jet. I think all of us Redskin fans know that a great O-line can make an average QB into a Super Bowl winning QB. But a great QB cannot make an average O-line look any better than what they actually are.
Yeah Sanchez hasn't shown much of anything
other than having one of the highest rookie int:att rates in recent history.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Interesting take on Jets most indispensable player...
NEW YORK JETS: D’BRICKASHAW FERGUSON
Darrelle Revis is their best player, but the Jets believe they can win without their all-galaxy cornerback because they still have Antonio Cromartie, Kyle Wilson and Dwight Lowery. Nose tackle Kris Jenkins is important, but the Jets managed to have the top-rated defense without him for the past 10 games of the 2009 season. Nick Mangold is the NFL’s best center and crucial to the offensive line.
But the most indispensable Jet is left tackle D’Brickashaw Ferguson. Remove him from the field and the run game suffers. Minus Ferguson, a quarterback with knee problems and not known for making the best decisions under duress has edge-rushers chasing him around. I’m fairly certain the Jets would rather not entrust Mark Sanchez’s continued health to Wayne Hunter, an eight-year pro with one career start.
Not teams whose left tackle blows ass...
I’m sure a lot of people here would argue Albert Hayneworth is our most indispensable player…
I agree with you but if someone held a gun to your head and said you had to get rid of Fletcher or Williams for THIS season or Vinny Cerratto would become lifelong President/GM, then who would you pick?
I tell them to go ahead and pull the trigger
But if I survived the first shot, I guess it would be Williams
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Aug 25, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I think I'd have to say Fletcher
losing Fletch would create a soft spot in our defense, but it would still work. Losing Williams would leave us with Brown as the LT, who may or may not play the whole season. With neither Brown or Williams at LT, our offense will just not work, in part because that severely effects the likelihood that McNabb will make it even 14 games.
Thinking about it another way though…. if McNabb doesn’t play the whole season and doesn’t make the ProBowl, then I think we have an extra draft pick next year…. but I don’t want to think about how the season would turn out then…
I'd have to get rid of Fletcher
I think we all know that Fletcher is the heart and soul of our defense, but besides QB, no one on the team is more important than a LT.
If we don’t have Williams at LT, we more than likely won’t have McNabb at QB, at least not for long.
The drop off from Fletch to Blades seems much less than the drop off from Trent W to whoever the hell the back up LT is
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
David Harris
Fletcher isn’t getting any younger and Harris is one of the best up and coming ILB’s.
I think Ferguson wins this one
Mangold is elite, and that’s for sure, but Ferguson would give us one more incredible OT, and we would actually have depth there now. Maybe we wouldn’t have to start T.Williams year one, and put Brown in with Ferguson at LT. Williams eventualy would come up and take Brown’s spot, and then we would have at least one, very strong, backup OT. Mangold would be a bigger upgrade over Rabach then Ferguson would provide, but OT, especially LT, is more important to the offensive line then center.
I agree with this concept but,
If you watch the Baltimore game again and focus on the center of our offensive line, you’ll see why I like Mangold.
unfortunately, I have this really bad feeling that after the Jets game tomorrow, we may actually NEED Mangold. Not only are the Redskins extremely thin at the center of the line, but the starters are being exposed in the zone blocking system. Dockery doesn’t seem to be doing bad when they are man on man. Rabach really seems to be losing gas against above-average players. Hicks has his moments where he gets blown into the backfield, very scary because all I’ve seen at second string center is Lichtensteiger and that ain’t pretty.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Aug 26, 2010 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Dont get me wrong...
I love fletcher like no other player on the current skins but he is getting up there in age (though he has yet to show it, knock on wood). trent williams will, knock on wood, carry our offensive line for years to come.
Back to the Kris jenkins vs. Mangold vs. ferguson argument
Alot of offensive line excellence comes from the same group consistently playing together and learning each other’s tendencies. Mangold/Ferguson would definately be upgrades over anyone on our line and I would gladly trade for them but its not as though the entire unit would instantly jump to probowl caliber with the addition of either of them. With Kris Jenkins, big al really could play end and Maake could be the back up that injury prone players were meant to be. Tell me that front seven isnt scary good:
Adam Carricker (the weak link but still a former 1st round pick), Jenkins, Big al (if he cracks the lineup) followed by Fletcher, Mcintosh, Carter, and orakpo?
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