Snide Debate: Should the Redskins Trade for Another Right Tackle?
by Kevin Ewoldt on Aug 12, 2010 11:20 AM EDT
in Redskins Analysis
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PrintWashington Examiner columnist Rick Snider's first Redskins story was in 1983 and his work can be found at the WashingtonExaminer.com.
"Should the Redskins make a trade for another Right Tackle, or are they safe going into the season with a banged up Jammal Brown and the current field of backups?"
Rick: I would definitely grab another right tackle if someone decent comes open during late preseason cutdown. That said, they don't very often so it's doubtful anyone good is available and if it's just another guy they already have those. That Jammal Brown's hip is already bothering him is a warning sign. Where is Jon Jansen when you need him?
Kevin: I'd like to see a trade. When Bruce Allen said the 'future is now," I sincerely doubt he had Stephon Heyer as RT in mind. As JimmyK researched so well, the 49ers and the Raiders are both Tackle heavy. The Raiders went OT heavy in the draft this year, selecting Jared Veldheer and Bruce Campbell. Mario Henderson and Khalif Barnes are the starters, leaving rookies Veldheer, Campbell, and the versatile Erik Pears as the reserves. Pears interests me since he played for Shanahan from 2005-2008 and is a perfect fit for a zone-blocking scheme. It's not like the Raiders can't afford to trade a once undrafted OLineman. Everyone knows Campbell can take a hit...why not bolster your defense some more??
The Niners have 10 NFL-quality O Linemen, although they may very well keep all 10. They drafted OG Mike Iupati and OT Anthony Davis, but also have OT's Joe Staley, Alex Boone, and Barry Sims; OG's Adam Snyder, David Baas, and Chilo Rachal; and C's Eric Heitman and Cody Wallace. I'm thinking the Niners need to bring Andre Carter back to San Fran!!
Rick: Given your Raiders scenario, the Jason Campbell trade to Oakland for a 2012 draft pick looks even dumber. They should have taken a backup right tackle since Oakland has spares. I really hate that trade being two years away on the pick in a draft that technically isn't real because the CBA runs out after 2011 draft. I could see a trade -- maybe Willie Parker for someone's backup tackle.
Yea, it'll be interesting to get the "Behind the Scenes" story on how Al Davis bullied us into that 2012 pick. Perhaps it came down to simply mercy for Jason's sake. Campbell obviously still isn't taking the trade news well, so maybe the Redskins took whatever they could. With Willie having such a bad camp, do you think he has any trade value? In fantasy football terms, I feel like that trade is the equivalent of me offering you Rex Grossman for Steve Smith.
Rick: Kinda like Dutch for Beck deal. Parker might garner a backup tackle in the right situation. Both teams giving up someone they're going to cut anyway. Maybe Chris Horton is available.
Excellent point on the Beck deal. So what say you Redskins Nation?
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try to stay medium
i am totally uncomfortable with heyer seeing significant time, but can’t we give poor jammal a few days to see how the sore hip responds? we all thought his acquisition was a gift from God when it happened, only a few short weeks ago. i hardly think we should write him off after a few missed practices.
by brooding burgundy on Aug 12, 2010 11:27 AM EDT reply actions
Maybe they should move
Capers back to his natural position and see if he looks better over there than he has on the left side this offseason.
I agree, from what I’ve read about training camp he’s showing promise but is a project and wouldn’t be alot better fit an a reserve role. He was a right tackle in college though and I believe that was wvu’s blind side with a left handed qb?
"You're fucking out!"
Thats right.
He played on the right side in college because Pat White was a lefty.
We need depth at RT. He was considered a 3rd rounder by some at RT. Seems like a good fit right? Why are we square-pegging this round hole here?
Hopefully
Brown will be ready by the beginning of the regular season, but if he’s not, we should definitely keep an eye out on the O-linemen that may be cut. Or, as suggested, work out some trade where we don’t give up any draft picks.
Can someone remind me what exactly picks we’re already missing for next year?
3rd and 4th? With the possibility of a 5th?
"You're fucking out!"
I thought they all were gone
it was just a matter of who they go to based on play during the year
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Honestly
I’m not 100% sure of everything. If McNabb does well this year, Philly will get our third, and New Orleans will get our fourth. I think? And if New Orleans gets our fourth, we get their sixth or seventh. But, if New Orleans gets our third, we get their fifth round pick. And everything else, I’m not really sure of…
That's correct
3rd & 4th are gone….now take a deep breath for the details…
If the Saints end up with the Redskins’ fourth-rounder, New Orleans will send Washington a sixth- or seventh-round pick. And if the Saints end up with the Redskins’ 3rd-round pick, they’ll send Washington their fifth-round pick.
According to ESPN, an conditional 2012 pick is also involved in the Brown deal. If the tackle plays 90 percent of the plays this season or is selected to the Pro Bowl, then the Redskins must also send their sixth-round pick in 2012 to New Orleans.
Hogs Haven. On Twitter. And Facebook.
by Kevin Ewoldt on Aug 12, 2010 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Brown
If Brown plays 90% of the plays or is selected to the pro bowl, a sixth round pick thrown in will be a steal. If he’s selected to the pro bowl I would expect the Redskins to be playing very good football.
Unless the saints fans rig the vote. Which the eagles fans can do as well.
Pro bowls should never be a factor in trades.
"You're fucking out!"
Fan voting is but a small part in the Pro Bowl selection process,
otherwise the Redskins would send half the roster to the Pro Bowl every year because of the marketing campaigns the team puts on.
At least we have been
consistently good at some things the last decade…
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Anyone other than smuts find it interesting
That once again, going heavily on free agents is starting to look a little wobbly. I have learned that if something looks too good to be true, it probably is.
New Orleans is not a stupid team, there was definitely something that made them nervous about Brown. I am afraid that our lack of depth at many positions will be exposed frequently this season… Especially on the offensive line.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
SILLY HOBBITS!
If the ‘Skins suddenly decided to “build through the draft,” they would, quite frankly, stink up FedEx field for the next 4-5 years….a move Snyder that can’t afford. Or, doesn’t want to, anyway.
Plus, they’d never have landed Shanahan and probably wouldn’t have gotten Allen.
This ain’t Detroit. ‘Skins fans would be howling for blood.
So, in order to try and win now, they gave up still more picks for McNabb, Brown, et al. That wouldn’t be quite so bad if so many Cerrato draft picks of the past 10 years hadn’t be incredibly inept, but let’s face, Vinny’s draft record was like an Electrolux. It sucked forever.
If there is a plan, it seems to be to try to be a .500 team this year and next and hope they do better in future drafts.
It does not take 4-5 years to rebuild through the draft
Between a mix of mid range FAs and 1st, 2nd and 3rd round picks you can get into playoff contention within 3 years, frequently 2. Jets did it. Miami did it. 49ers did it.
If pleasing short-sighted fans is Danny’s #1 priority, then it’s no wonder we’re the 26th best team since he’s bought it.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
LIAR
Ha! You lie like a rug! If the ‘Skins went 1-15, 1-14 and 3-13 you would be demanding someone’s head on a platter!
More to the point, Shanahan would NEVER have agreed to take the job if that was the plan.
Gotta make shyt up huh?
I followed the Caps through the bad years because they had a PLAN.
And now look: they’re one of the best young teams in the league primed to contend for the next few seasons at least. Something the Skins haven’t known for 2 decades.
More to the point, Shanahan would NEVER have agreed to take the job if that was the plan.
Ha, bringing in Shanahan is FAR from the point. Winning is the point. Long-term success is the point. Shanahan is great, but not if the cost is “win (lose) now”.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I'm happy to know that they
have a plan and a view of what they want from the franchise all the way thru 2020 if you read the Bog post in today’s Slop. Even a bad plan is better than no plan at all.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Good luck finding out
they’re keeping things close to the vest. But you are right. I would like to know, too.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Maybe we should have gone heavily on draft picks instead
The question is, where would we have gotten 20 draft picks this year from? If your talking about Mcnabb for a second rounder, that was well worth the pick. The chance of plucking someone out of the draft that will fill his shoes even if only for one year is almost zero. Chances are he will be here for about 3 years. If your talking about Brown, well maybe your correct and maybe your not, we wont know until the second have of the year. But even if Brown gets hurt and never plays another down, we’re still only talking about 1 draft pick, which is no doubt valuable.
The Redskins ended up with Williams in the first, Mcnabb for a second, Jarmon was picked in the third the year before, Riley in the fourth, Carriker was traded for our fifth which was a steal IMO, and then we also ened up with Dennis Morris,Selvish Capers,Terrence Austin and Eric Cook. That is far better than any draft in the past 5 years overall.
But the question still remains the same, if your unhappy about going heavily on free agents and not on draft picks, where was Shanahan getting all the extra draft picks from?
If Shanahan only wants to win now (which seems to be the case) I wouldn't have hired him
This team needs to rebuild (2 years of keeping & using all draft picks). If some fans or some coaches can’t handle that, tough sh-t.
It’s not like the free agent route has brought us any significant success.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I understand, but I don't think he just wants to win right now.
I believe he’s just putting the best team possible on the field. I don’t think he’s going the free agent route neither. Without a capable QB, the entire plan can go down the drain. So I really believe that was a must and great move. Shanahan isn’t shooting from the hip like Zorn and Ceratto. He knows a little something about winning and having very good offenses throughout his career. Take a look at what his son did last year, we’re not talking about a coach that’s coming back after being out of the game for a decade or a coach that’s in over his head, that describes the last 6 years. However, even with Gibbs, who had a plan, and picked players to suit his offense, had two playoff appearances.
I’m still confused on what the Skins are supposed to do or what you think they should have done differently other than keep their 2nd and 5th round picks this year. It’s hard to look at the players they received for those picks and not think we will at least be as good if they had picked from the draft. The upside to those two players they traded for are very high. Carriker is still very young. Mcnabb while not young is most likely more productive than anyone they could have picked out of the draft. On your rebuilding point, they managed to pick 7 players out of the draft. Even teams that keep all their picks(1-7) usually end up cutting some of them.
For now, I will give credit on the Brown trade, but it’s far from knowing how that will end up. He’s coming off an injury, but this trade at some point could reap the most reward out of all of them. Time will tell.
I read in the WaPo that Shanahan doesn't believe in rebuilding
And seeing as how he’s already traded picks away, that certainly seems to be the case.
You can like the McNabb trade, but McNabb has no “upside”. He is a complete known quantity yet is an injury risk. That’s the opposite of “upside”. Not saying he’s likely to underperform, but he will bring no added value. He is 100% known.
Picking 7 players is great but we all know all picks aren’t created equal. The ones that matter are the first two rounds, and to a lesser extent the third, and so on down. So what do we do? Trade a 2nd rounder for a 33 y.o. QB with injury problems playing behind a rebuilt offensive line with a very mediocre G/C/G combination.
The draft is a hard way to find talent, but it’s also the only successful way to build a team that is in annual playoff contention. You have to put a youthful core in place before you go trading very valuable picks for veterans, especially at QB.
If we were rebuilding we wouldn’t have traded for McNabb. But we’re not rebuilding.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
We are rebuilding.
We’re just not doing it the way you would prefer. Some people, like Cerrato, believe you can build a successful team by eschewing the draft and picking up FAs almost exclusively. Some people, like you, believe you can only build a successful team through the draft, and FA pickups should be kept to the bare minimum. Both sides have examples to point towards, but the truth lies in the middle ground. Perfect example: New England Patriots. They always have more draft picks than anyone else, but they’re also always signing veteran FAs to compliment their roster. Now, they have a very unique system that creates the impression their players are more talented than they are, so they get inflated trade values for players who move to other teams and turn out to be worth less than was paid for them, which results in their high draft pick totals. But they’ve also shown they’re not afraid to pick up the FAs, trade for players and mix the philosophy.
Shanallen are setting the team for immediate success, while also beginning the process of getting younger through the draft. If they weren’t planning on drafting more in the next two to five years, you would have already seen Vincent Jackson in burgundy and yellow. They have tried to address the areas on the field that they feel will make the biggest difference with an immediate upgrade, and have been content to make do with other positions (WR, RB) that are serviceable enough for now, with an eye to gradually upgrade those in the next three years.
Bottom line, this team will be far better next year. We will also continue to improve, because of that gradual merging of the draft and FA strategies. Next year’s first and second rounders will likely get us two of three dire needs: more OL help, a good true NT, or a can’t-miss WR. We’ll also have a 5, 6 and 7 for depth. The year after that, we’re only missing that one pick. The year after that, we have every pick. I think you’ll see them keep future trades to a minimum involving draft picks, but they won’t be afraid to use one or two mid to low round picks a year to get a good player that will help the team.
Thoughtful response
But it presumes that we’ll keep the picks we already have. And you can’t blame me for being skeptical. I’ve heard that for years. I know it’s a new regime, but two of Shanahan’s first moves were trading picks for vets. So you can see why I’d be concerned.
My only slight disagreements with your post are
A) There’s basically no example of a team built around FA’s who found sustained success
B) The Pats have really only relied on second tier and inexpensive free agents. We’ll see if Shanahan follows that pattern, but prior to this year we spent big on FAs every year, and still have a team mostly comprised of veterans, none of whom have contracts that give us great value.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
You are skipping over the fact that the Pats
signed a then 29 year-‘old’ two time pro-bowler named Rodney Harrison. He was their defensive captian and lead them to three Super Bowls. He was the key to their defense from 2003-2008…the Pats D took a big step back last year without him. This was a major FA signing and dwarfs them signing Springs or Junior Seau for the third time.
sure doesnt look like brown will play 90% of the plays since he has missed 90% of camp. i like the idea of taking a flyer on a once injured solid player. but it is dumb to pencil him in as a starter before he has proven he recovered. so far, brown and the NT from carolina are busts and carriker looks like he will earn legitimate playing time. we should still trade one of our corners for gaither if he is healthy.
by les boulez bomber on Aug 12, 2010 12:26 PM EDT reply actions
I want to wait and see how the right side of Hicks and Heyer perform on Friday. Shanahan kept Heyer for a reason. Let’s see if he has made some improvement since last year. I hope Heyer performs well enough to demonstrate that he will be a dependable backup this year.
Strange it might seem, while the offensive line ranked 26 amongst the 32 NFL teams, the running game off of RT, i.e., where Heyer
played most of the season, was ranked 5th in the NFL based on Football Outsiders calculations. Now it is known that he is not the greatest in pass protection blocking.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 12, 2010 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions
Regardless of whether Brown
heals up in time for the season, we still need another backup lineman who could start on the right side as he is likely to be re-injured. I’m sure Shanny and Bruce know this and are waiting for the cuts to start or are even actively looking for a trade with Oakland and/or San Fran. I like the idea of trading straight up for Carter with either team unless they think he’s our best option at OLB.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Possibly
But generally the player can waive the clause if he thinks it is in his best interest. At least that’s what how I understand things.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Carter has a new home in California and that might be an incentive for a trade with one of three teams.
Even the Cardinals location is closer to Carter’s home base.
Sims also has a home in Arizona. He is on the old side for OL.
Alex Boone had a bad rep going into the 2009 and ended up an UDFA. He spent the entire off season remolding his body and now seems to have his head on straight to be an NFL lineman.
Snider has a good idea for a strategy for between now and the second week of September. Most teams are now carrying between 10 and 14 OLs on their 80 man roster which means something like 62-93 OLs will be cut (31x 3). Some will have more potential than Paul Fanaika had or some of the OLs still on the Teams’ roster. There may be some experienced older OLs that have been quality starters that get cut.
by Jefferson1935 on Aug 12, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions
We need O-line
I hope they are exploring the possibility of a trade with Oak or SF for a tackle or guard. Just what they do could depend on the prognosis for Brown. If Brown looks OK, they could think backup, and do it by getting a starting RG, freeing Hicks to back up RT. But if Brown is looking questionable, it would be better to get a real RT, leaving Hicks at RG and keeping Brown as backup (or starter) along with Capers. By the way, the coaches are probably congratulating themselves that they didn’t move Brown to LT and TW to RT.
Let's See What's Available After Cuts
This franchise hasn’t done so well in preseason panic trades the last few times…
by BrokenClipboard on Aug 12, 2010 4:18 PM EDT reply actions
PFT had an article on how thin the Texans are at DE. Im pretty sure Texans still use 4-3, and as much as I like Carter it would be nice to come out on the good end of a desperation trade.
by oklahomaskins on Aug 12, 2010 4:52 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
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