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A Denver Fan's Thoughts on Shanahan

Hello Redskins fans. I am a Denver Broncos fan.  I am posting here because I wanted to share my thoughts about what kind of coach I think that you are getting with Mike Shanahan.

I am a fan of Shanahan both as a coach and as a guy.  While I don't think that Bowlen's decision to make a change was a bad move, we in Denver are still in the process of figuring out how that will turn out.  I don't think that his being fired from the Broncos job means that Shanahan will not be successful again as a coach.  

First I will look at what went into his success; and then, what went into his post-super-bowl mediocrity.

Star-divide

During Shanahan's tenure, the Broncos offense was nearly always in the top five, and was one of the two best rushing offenses in the league over that 15-year period.  The reason for his success were Shanahan's abilities as an offensive mind, consistency over time, and the organization's ability to draft and develop offensive talent.

During Shanahan's time in Denver tenure, spanning three (if I remember correctly) offensive coordinators, they ran the same offensive system.  Denver had relatively little turnover of offensive assistant coaches.  Many observers who have covered and watched the team attribute their success and coaching  the running game to the Alex Gibbs-Rick Dennison continuum coaching the offensive line and to Bobby Turner who coached running backs for Shanahan's entire tenure.  It has been reported that Turner had a hand in uncovering some of the late-round draft picks who did well in the zone block/one cut scheme.   

When offensive coaches left or were replaced, the new coaches ran the same system.  The Broncos were fortunate that when Alex Gibbs phased into one of his several partial retirements, he stayed around for an extra year to mentor Rick Dennison to take his place.  

Denver ran the Gibbs zone block/one cut system for Shanahan's entire career there.   Once players learned the system and became comfortable with it, they did not have to learn a new system.  It was reported the blocking rules were so complex that most offensive linemen took a year or two to really grasp them.  

An article ran in the Denver paper about how other teams had tried to master some plays that had worked well for Denver.  I believe that it was Minnesota who tried to put in one of the plays but could not get it to work for an entire year.  The second year they tried again and eventually got it to work.  This steep learning curve turned into an advantage for the Broncos because they were able to execute plays that might have taken other teams a year to learn.

The system worked best with lighter, more agile offensive linemen and a backs who could run within the discipline of the one cut system.  The Broncos had great success in drafting and signing linemen who were considered too small for other teams, and backs who were not top prospects coming out of college or signing backs who were cut by other teams.  Terrell Davis was the most notable, but a string of unknown backs rushed for impressive numbers year after year.

The consistency in coaching, drafting, signing, and developing players was a cornerstone to their success.  They also did very well drafting and developing receivers and tight ends.  Rod Smith - the leading free-agent receiver in NFL history is the best example.  Shannon Sharpe was merely the greatest of a series of all-pro pass-catching tight ends, including Byron Chamberlain, Desmond Clark, Tony Sheffler, and others whose names I can't recall.

Shanahan as an offensive coach had a tremendous ability to create mismatches, putting his best players against the other team's worst.  Seemingly there were always receivers open.  I remember listening to a broadcast of a Denver-Oakland game on the Oakland radio network.  The color guy at one point said in frustration, "won't someone please cover Ed McCaffrey!?"

He was a great big game coach.  His game plans for the two super bowls were masterful, especially the first one against Green Bay.  The Broncos were huge underdogs (around two touchdowns if I recall correctly).  They singled out LeRoy Butler as the player who needed to be taken out of the game.  On every play, a guard, the center, fullback or a receiver was assigned to find him and block him. Butler, the Packer's best defensive player made perhaps one play in that game.  Shanahan must also be given credit for realizing that no one had really tried to run against Green Bay that seasons and that their defensive line could be worn down by Denver's running game.  The overweight and out-of-shape Packers' line allowed Terrell Davis to score the clinching touchdown, knowing that they could not stop him.

One of the marks of Shanahan's Denver teams was to start out strong and finish weak.  Some observers believed that reloading his playbook during the off-season gave Shanahan a six to eight game lead over the rest of the league.  It would take defensive coordinators until the middle of the season to figure out how to stop what he was doing.  This is either a testimony to Shanahan's ability to coach more with less personnel or an indictment of his abilities as a general manager.

On defense, things were nearly the opposite.  After a six-year run with Greg Robinson that spanned two super bowl wins, the defense collapsed and Shanahan began his revolving door of defensive coordinators.  Every year or two, he brought in a new coordinator.  Some did not work out for coaching reasons, others for personality reasons.  Most of these coordinators were successful before coaching in Denver, and some, such as Ray Rhodes and Larry Coyer have gone on to success with other teams.  None of them had much success in Denver.

With each turnover of coordinators came a new defensive system, which required a different type of player to make it work.  Shanahan reshuffled the roster, including in some cases signing players off their living room couch weeks before the season started.  Realistically it takes two or three years of drafting a signing to put together an NFL roster to fit a system.  Trying to do it it one year, the Broncos cut or traded quality players who didn't fit for bad players of the right type.  Each turnover degraded the talent on their roster even further.

Shanahan's last year in Denver marked one of the worst performances by an NFL in history.  The defense ranked last or nearly last in every significant defensive statistical category and at one point was on a pace to surrender the most points by an NFL defense in history.

As a measure of the deterioration of their defensive talent over the final years of the Shanahan era, Josh McDaniels cut nine defensive starters from Shanahan's roster - only two of whom were in the league (in a backup role) during the last season.

One of the main problems with Shanahan's approach to personnel was that he was never willing to rebuild.  He stated that he should be able to put a team on the field every year that was competitive to win a super bowl.  He approached team building as if he were just "one player away" from a super bowl roster.  He would try to sign the one player that could put them over the top by paying big bucks to a free agent.  Most of these high-priced free agents did not work out.  Some such as Darryl Gardner were washed up, over the hill, while others (Dale Carter) did not fit whatever system Denver was running at the time.  With large chunks of salary cap tied up in unproductive free agents, Denver was unable or unwilling to sign productive players that they had developed who moved on to other teams (Bertrand Berry, Monsanto Pope)

The period from 2000 to 2005 was marred by generally poor drafting on both sides of the ball.  At one point the team had only two starters who had been drafted during that period.  The draft problems -- whatever they were -- seem to have been somewhat fixed with excellent drafts in 2006 and 2008 sandwiching a marginal draft in 2007.

So how can Shanahan's record as the Broncos coach be summed up?  Shanahan is clearly the best coach the Broncos have had in their history.  He brought us two super bowls, for which Broncos fans will always be greatful.  When he had the talent, his offenses could dominate.  His defenses never dominated, but with some defensive talent and the right defensive coaching staff, the defenses were good enough.

His problems and failures originated mostly in his deficiencies as a general manager.  He drafted poorly and made bad decisions about which free agents to sign and which Broncos to let go.

I always have liked Shanahan very much as a guy.  He has an appealing frankness in front of the press.  It was reported many times in various newspapers, by many reporters quoting many sources that he was a very straight up guy, did not play mind games, and treated men like men.  He stood up for his players when they got in trouble.

In my view the best situation for Mike Shanahan is one with a strong front office that can do a good job with player evaluation, scouting, drafting, signing players, and salary cap management.  Whether it was too much for one person to do or Shanahan is simply not so good at those things, he did not succeed in both roles equally well.

I think that Shanahan is a reflective person who has spent his year away from the game reviewing what he did and did not do, and reviewing what the rest of the league has been doing.  I expect him not to make the same mistakes that he made in his later years in Denver.  I expect him to do well.  And I remain a Shana-fan.

Comment 53 comments  |  9 recs  | 

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Rec'd

We're from the city with the highest murder rate in the country. Why WOULDN'T they call us the Bullets?

by Bullet Nation in Exile on Jun 12, 2010 4:17 AM EDT reply actions  

good post

I think you are a class act and very insightful.

by washingtonwin on Jun 12, 2010 9:49 AM EDT reply actions  

Excellent Post

Thanx for stopping by & come back anytime.

by ENsDad27 on Jun 12, 2010 11:18 AM EDT reply actions  

Shanahan

Really interesting. Explains some of what is going on here now, too. Thanks.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 12, 2010 12:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Very informative and interesting......rec'd

Thanks and welcome. Pretty objective for being such a fan and well stated, Good luck this year!

by shvd98z24 on Jun 12, 2010 12:57 PM EDT reply actions  

Well written, insightful post

bolsters both my hopes and concerns for the Shanahan era here in DC. Rec’d.

Come back any time!

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

by Scott E on Jun 12, 2010 1:33 PM EDT reply actions  

Some aspects of this account on Shanahan:

Reminds me of Snyderatto, i.e., signing of big name over the hill players. The question is Allen able to complement stated Shanahan’s weakness in regard to player personnel. His preparation for giving the offense an advantage would seem to be his major asset. Gibbs I was known for getting overachiever performance from many players. Gibbs spent many nights sleeping at Redskins Park. Shanahan will share the load with his son and Haslett which should keep his endurance up. Shanahan’s off year from coaching enabled him to establish a relationship with Haslett before any hiring was done hence we should not expect any personality conflict between the head coach and the defensive coordinator.

Perhaps smaller offensive linemen was an advantage at Denver’s altitude that would not hold closer to sea level, but how would this impact the implementation of the zone blocking scheme.

by Jefferson1935 on Jun 12, 2010 2:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Allen or Shanahan?

This shows that the person REALLY in charge is pretty vague. Some have their opinion that it’s Shanahan, while others have theirs and saying it’s Allen. To me, nothing has changed in who is in charge. I still think Snyder is involved to the point of causing damage. He might have kept himself out of the press conferences to keep up appearances and keep the masses happy, but I still don’t trust him for being truly out of the way. I don’t trust him for telling the truth in press conferences.

That’s how I feel.

by BAFGA on Jun 12, 2010 5:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Snyder?

None of the action so far looks like Snyder, except my (debatable) idea that he has sort of washed his hands of (running) the team, turned it over to the professionals, and put Bruce Allen on a tight budget. Allen and Shanahan have eschewed any youth movement, passed on Bradford and all expensive free agents, not renegotiated bigger contracts, and built a team of older, cheap and (often injured) veterans. All those moves look like Allen’s work (remember how Shanahan seemed to covet a QB in the draft?). Meanwhile, Shanahan is moving to a 3-4 defense and Allen is busily getting cheap 3-4 players. It looks to me as if Allen is building the team – the overall plan and getting the players – and Shanahan is coaching the team. I don’t see any Snyder moves unless he has totally changed his spots. There is disagreement on whether Snyder put Allen on a budget (Allen says he didn’t) or if Allen is just being conservative, or even just waiting to make his moves. But the fact is, they have not spent much money on anybody so far.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 12, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cmon now, the McNabb could be classic Snyder

Trade a high/valuable pick for a veteran star.

Not saying he orchestrated it himself, but it certainly resembles things he’s done in the past.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Jun 14, 2010 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

McNabb

My instincts tell me that McNabb was definitely not Snyder’s idea. Almost certainly Allen. No way to know, though.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 14, 2010 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

If anything

I think Snyder would have liked to steer clear of McNabb since going after him would only strengthen his rep as a big name getter. I think Allen and Shanny made the decision that they could not win – or get to the level they wanted – with JC, and Snyder went along ’cuz he lost faith in JC years ago.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

by Scott E on Jun 14, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

There was a story about this...

Bruce Allen called Snyder to let him know they would be trading for McNabb. Snyder replied “Why are you telling me? Just do it.”

Hogs Haven. On Twitter. And Facebook.

by Kevin Ewoldt on Jun 14, 2010 10:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting folklore

to add to everything else.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

by Scott E on Jun 14, 2010 2:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Regardless of who's decision it was

it mimics moves we’ve made over the past 10 years.

High draft picks traded for veterans.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Jun 14, 2010 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

Veterans

How else are you going to get top quality veterans? If you want the best, you gotta pay, no? You have bought into the idiotic paradigm (‘throwing money at overpriced, washed up stars’) pushed by a few sportswriters. These writers never built a team and don’t know how to build one. I, for one, wish that Snyder had not suddenly gotten cheap. We’d have a better team now if he had allowed Allen to spend more.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 14, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions  

this idiotic owner has yet to build a moderately respectable franchise

and that’s the paradigm we are suffering from. “Buying a team” doesn’t work, Snyder’s decade is the proof.
 You build a core from the draft and then add key FA’s….this is how every successful franchise has done it.
You need that core, you need consistency and continuity at all levels from those core players on up to the GM/VP.
YOU CAN NOT BUILD A CORE OUTTA FREE AGENTS!
we have no core (or a very tiny one), and therefore no team, (sniff)
If we keep trading high draft picks for FA’s, how will we ever build a team?

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 14, 2010 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

The draft

You guys are so enamored of the draft. But really only the first two or three rounds are worth much (yes there are exceptions, but who can spot them?). If you have 7 picks you’re only likely to get one to three solid players, because below the 2nd round it’s a crapshoot, mostly backups or “average” types. Remember the draft with DT, MK, Chad Rinehart, etc? Chris Horton was probably the best, and he may not even start at safety. Is Chad part of your “core”? What do you mean by “core”, and why should it be mainly made up of draftees? If by core you mean starters, it’s 22 spots, so it might take you 10 years to draft them. Most players were drafted (like Mike Williams was high first round). If you don’t get them from the draft, they’ll probably be FAs, RFAs or trades. The difference is, you have some idea of what they can do. If we traded for or signed Jared Gaither, wouldn’t he be part of your core? Jason Campbell was supposed to be part of your “core”. You say “build a core from the draft and then add key FAs”, but then said you “cannot build a core outta free agents!” Again, what’s the core? Speaking of “core”, say that last year we had a core of: JC, CP, Moss, Cooley, Haynesworth and Daniels, Fletcher and Rocky, Rogers, Landry and Hall. Of those, I think only three were drafted by us (and two of those gave us some major heartburn) . My basic point is that in building your team, you should get the best players anywhere you find them and pay what is necessary. The draft is a very risky source of players, because you simply don’t know who is going to be good.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 14, 2010 8:06 PM EDT up reply actions  

I responded in a fan post

see: http://www.hogshaven.com/2010/6/15/1519004/why-you-have-to-draft-your-players

Seemed like a good topic for a fanpost. Also, I can refer back to it when I have this argument with people on a monthly basis.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Jun 15, 2010 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting discussion -

lot of good points. I think more like Scott E, but can see advantages in the different philosophies.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 15, 2010 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Donnio

See my reply to Smuts’ fanpost. I think we are on the same track having just read your comments here.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

by Scott E on Jun 15, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Donnio,

a core is made up of players who all fit the team’s system and who’s characters work synergistically to create the vibe of the team. They play together a long time generally and are the foundation that you build on.
Your example is far off the mark, try this one….
McNabb, Westbrook, Dawkins, Trotter or
Aikman, Smith , Irvin
You know the teams from the names, most fans would.
You can’t do the same with the Redskins, those players have been on more than 1 team.
BS (Before Snyder), we had many cores with nicknames, Hogs, Fun Bunch, Smurfs.
You know who our longest tenured Redskin is? drafted and FA?
There has been way too much roster churn on this team and we’re set up for more

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 15, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, you gotta draft.
If you want the best, you gotta pay, no?

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Jun 14, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I really do think Snyder has stepped back and I applaud him for that.

I don’t like what he’s doing with the brand. I don’t like the lack of transparency or responsiveness, and I’m rooting for Leonsis to add some checks and balances to Snyder’s ego, but I do think he is genuinely trying to trust a football person who works as hard or harder than he does, has some track record, and shares an impatience for winning.

Souldrummer stands alone for Miguel Batista. Many want to see Capps save games. Dream big! MOAR RUNZ!!! MOAR BATISTA!!!!

by souldrummer on Jun 12, 2010 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lineman size and altitude

@Jefferson1935, concerning the size of linemen and high altitude, I don’t think that was the reason. The zone blocking scheme puts more emphasis on movement and speed, which favored a lighter player who could run faster and was more agile, while the man blocking scheme that most teams use relies more on size and strength.

by Wobble on Jun 12, 2010 3:32 PM EDT reply actions  

really nice post.

i agree that shannahan can get the most out of nobody,s like a mike anderson and ed mccaffrey and turn them into pro bowl players. we shall see what he can do with this bunch

lohaus #54

by lohaus#54 on Jun 12, 2010 4:55 PM EDT reply actions  

Great Post!

I followed Shanahan for many years. Mostly because I truly enjoyed watching the broncos running game while Shanahan was there. Either way I enjoyed reading this post.

by JeanBaptiste on Jun 12, 2010 7:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Excellent post.
One of the main problems with Shanahan’s approach to personnel was that he was never willing to rebuild. He stated that he should be able to put a team on the field every year that was competitive to win a super bowl. He approached team building as if he were just “one player away” from a super bowl roster. He would try to sign the one player that could put them over the top by paying big bucks to a free agent. Most of these high-priced free agents did not work out. Some such as Darryl Gardner were washed up, over the hill, while others (Dale Carter) did not fit whatever system Denver was running at the time. With large chunks of salary cap tied up in unproductive free agents, Denver was unable or unwilling to sign productive players that they had developed who moved on to other teams (Bertrand Berry, Monsanto Pope)

This is the quote that has kept me in wait and see mode on the Redskins. I’m in the tank for the Caps and Ted Leonis. I’m willing to wait for the Nats to make a slow upward spiral that may take 3-5 years provided they add a new young core piece each year (Strasburg and Desmond) this year. But I am very, very afraid that Shanahan will be averse to building through the draft and I’m turned off by the revolving running back doors.

Shanahan will give us improvement. If Haslett is capable of handling D for Shanahan the way Williams handled D for Gibbs II, we may be a winner sooner rather than later. Likewise if Allen can corral Shanahan’s ego some on the personnel side, he might be better than he was in Denver personnel wise.

Still, Snyder has to earn my trust back. Once the lady cheats on you, it takes a long time to rebuild the relationship.

Souldrummer stands alone for Miguel Batista. Many want to see Capps save games. Dream big! MOAR RUNZ!!! MOAR BATISTA!!!!

by souldrummer on Jun 12, 2010 10:17 PM EDT reply actions  

John Elway years...

I was glad to see John Elway win the two Super Bowls and always thought all he needed was someone to hand the ball off to and help off set the passing game. The situation in DC is similar with McNab and I think that is where the running back by committe approach comes in. I know Portis and Johnson are not 25 anymore but may be capable of two decent seasons. Alot of teams are using more than one back due to injuries that happen during the 16 game season. (More if you add in playoff apperance) I am still in the wait and see mode since Kelly and Thomas have to stay on the field and produce and the new D will be interesting to see develop. I hope that they can draft replacements rather then spend in free agency.

by mybluebone on Jun 13, 2010 7:58 AM EDT reply actions  

thanks alot Bronco fan..say hey to Woody

did I skim over the part of the analysis about how BAD the rest of the AFC West was..for most of Shanny’s tenure?

by terpsez11 on Jun 13, 2010 9:59 AM EDT reply actions  

nice article indeed

Hope that unnamable in Denver doesn’t drive you to despair …

That was a historic feat of run blocking in SB XXXII indeed, by
HOFer Zimmerman, Habib, Nalen, ex-hog Schlereth, and Tony
Jones. Green Bay accused them of trickery and forced them
to wipe down their jerseys, remember? They sure had the
last laugh.

Yet no zone-blocking team has gone back to the superbowl
since 1998, unless I’m mistaken. The linemen here are bigger
than Denver’s prototype players. The long-time fans here have
questioned their talent, and I have read they are struggling
to learn the new scheme. I wonder if there will be changes in
the running game philosophy. Things change so fast in the NFL.
It is a game of rocket science; would be nice if some players
stop acting like Neanderthals.

For all the recycled DL free agents playing on one knee, I think
Denver would still have made the playoffs if Al Wilson, the
MLB who was the heart and soul of their defense, hadn’t
gotten hurt (and gotten dumped). Shanahan never managed to
rebuild his once proud LB corps. In the NFC East you have to
stop the run. Going 3-4 and forcing turnovers won’t do you much
good if Dallas and the Giants run down your throat. That’s where
the Redskins have an advantage; we still have quality LBs.

If the unnamable keeps purging good players, be sure to
have him send over Eddie Royal (good eventual replacement
for Moss) and Champ Bailey (whose contract is up next year)!
Sorry can’t resist :)

by formerbroncosfan on Jun 13, 2010 10:34 PM EDT reply actions  

Great article - thanks for sharing

Speaks to my major fear of our new front office regime:


His problems and failures originated mostly in his deficiencies as a general manager. He drafted poorly and made bad decisions about which free agents to sign and which Broncos to let go.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Jun 14, 2010 9:53 AM EDT reply actions  

I'm hoping Shanny revitalized, took stock

and made changes to his approach that will mitigate his deficiencies as GM and that Allen can do what is necessary to complement him. Mmmmm….kool-aid be berry, berry good to me….

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

by Scott E on Jun 14, 2010 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions  

Quality post

the comments you make regading the defense fill me with terror though,

you said he has a tendency to switch schemes and try and trade for players that fit his scheme even if losing a quality player who doesnt fit (haynesworth) for a lesser player who does (Carriker) leading to an overall reduction in the talent level, well that is what is happening here right now,

I just wish Shanahan would have looked at your D personell and stuck with 4-3 this year and slowly bought in 3-4 guys if he is commited to the 3-4.

We could have the 24 sack DE combo from last year B=Rak and Carter, with a now healthy Jarmon rotating in to the line rotation with Daniels and Haynesworth dominating the middle, instead we are going to have B-Rak being dragged into coverage situations by smart offensive Co=Ordinators and an unhappy Haynesworth playing at least some NT.

I can just see our Offense improving dramatically but this being offset by a massive deteriation in our Defense

I just hope I am wrong.]

Great post though dude, you are welcome back here anytime

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Jun 14, 2010 10:23 AM EDT reply actions  

Pommylee

Absolutely agree. Just gotta ask – why? If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 14, 2010 10:32 AM EDT reply actions  

"if Dallas and the Giants run down your throat"

which is exactly what I and others have been saying is likely to happen if we move players for the 34….we’ve moved the players, cross your fingers and pray.
“no ZBS team has gone back to the SB since 1998” Scary for us I guess, you need consistency and continuity to make it work. According to the guru, 2 years with the same personnel and 1 to 2 years to break a new player into an existing line. The order of importance tenure wise is…..C,G,T,TE……our personnel are completely Bass-Ackwards for a successful, sustainable line, we’re too old in the middle, how will we have the same 5 lineman together for even 3 years?

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 14, 2010 12:24 PM EDT reply actions  

old in the middle

Well, Dock and Big Mike might stay awhile, and Lichtensteiger could take over from Rabach. Trent Williams and Capers are young tackles learning the system from day one. But I’m with everybody else on HH, that we definitely and badly need a top quality tackle, both to play tackle and to free up Hicks to back up or play both tackle and guard. I just hope they are scheming and plotting to grab the right guy when he becomes available. They have plenty of ammo to do it. By the way – Kevin Ewoldt’s report above (about Allen, McNabb and Snyder) is interesting, and rings true to me.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 14, 2010 1:05 PM EDT reply actions  

agree with the need for another starting tackle asap

but it will not happen, none available that fit the system

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 14, 2010 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

you're not getting it....

they have to PLAY together. I can’t see the middle 3 playing together for 5 years, can you?
Center is the most important player in the ZBS, Lich has less than 10 PLAYS TOTAL at center and you think he’s Casey’s heir apparent?
I think we will be ok at tackle in two years with what we have right now, but I see no way of maintaining continuity or building depth over the next 5 years w/o drafting heavily on the oline….which is hard to do when we are one of the oldest teams in the NFL and we always trade our picks away…..this whole roster could be out of the NFL in 5 years with very few exceptions (Davis, T Williams, Orackpo, maybe Cooley…all DRAFTED by us)

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 14, 2010 3:22 PM EDT reply actions  

what does this word mean?
DRAFTED

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Jun 14, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's the thing that both

George W and the Redskins try to avoid as much as possible by “Buying” alternatives

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 14, 2010 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

In total Lichtensteiger has only had 32 snaps excluding special teams.

Most of his snaps have been at FB (17) and 10 at RG. The only thing going for him is that he was the center on a zone blocking college team. Being the blocking assignment caller is the most demanding aspect for a young center. Some quarterbacks such as Peyton Manning do call line blocking assignments. I have not found any info on Litch for special teams.

by Jefferson1935 on Jun 14, 2010 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

OK at tackle with what we have right now

I assume you mean T. Williams and Capers? I only mentioned Lichtensteiger as a young center because he played for Shanahan and Mike snatched him up early. It looks as if he will not beat out Casey. I think Cook plays center, too. In the modern NFL you aren’t going to see 5 interior linemen playing together for 5 years very often. I would think that professionals could learn to work together in a few months. After all, it’s all the same sort of thing – blocking. Individuals mostly do one of a few things. Not exactly splitting the atom or finding a cure for cancer. The Denver poster talks of two or three years to build a roster, but in regards to the offensive line working together, it could be that what really developed was Shanahan’s mind – he just learned more and more creative ways to use his guys. I think we need a good tackle right now, and your comment that no one is available is a little discouraging. Others on HH have mentioned some prospects. If any top tackle was available, Allen ought to grab him at almost any cost.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 14, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Interesting Posts

My novice comments are that WHATEVER it is that they have COMMITTED to doing…
they are not half stepping…they have DECIDED .
I can only believe that they have convinced the RIGHT people that this is what will make the Skins BETTER
I also have to believe that MORE/BETTER talent has yet to be plucked…they seem to have a PLAN

sbredskinsnabb

by sbredskinsnabb on Jun 14, 2010 4:32 PM EDT reply actions  

skins fan 77

“which is exactly what I and others have been saying is likely to happen if we move players for the 34….”

I know, I don’t like the switch either! But we still have London Fletcher in the middle.
Better work on his replacement soon though.

“no ZBS team has gone back to the SB since 1998" Scary for us I guess, you need consistency and continuity to make it work. According to the guru, 2 years with the same personnel and 1 to 2 years to break a new player into an existing line. The order of importance tenure wise is…..C,G,T,TE……”

That’s why I’m wondering if it will not be a pure zone-blocking scheme right away.
 Or maybe ever. I guess realistically this is likely a 8-8 year, but some rookies
may really step up and we may get in the playoffs! t least we are not Denver,
trying to get a rookie to play center …

by formerbroncosfan on Jun 14, 2010 10:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Snyder's touch of stone

I just read about Snyder getting shut out of the Six Flags board. The writer blamed him for ridiculously high prices that possibly caused the company to fail. Whatever the true facts, Dan certainly made some bitter enemies and clearly made some disastrous managerial decisions. So his critics may be right, at least in some ways (yes – I grant you guys some points). I still believe him that he had less to do with running the Skins than some said. Joe Gibbs ran things for four years (I really doubt that Dan ever overruled him on a football matter), and Schottenheimer for one, and two years were with Steve Spurrier, who didn’t want to have anything to do with management, and two with Jim Zorn – almost a complete cypher. With Steve and Jim, Vinny and Dan had to fill the vacuum. I think Joe Gibbs built a pretty good team. Unfortunately, Snyder threw it all away by hiring Zorn as head coach, and sticking with him for two years. Zorn cooked his own goose by anointing Campbell as his QB. Snyder flopped by not getting pushing hard enough for a good QB – Cutler or Sanchez or others. In retrospect, he’s been cooling on the team for the last year, and has finally withdrawn completely, hired some pros, and is letting them run things – probably on a pretty tight budget (unfortunately). Incidentally, Shanahan may have casually cooked his goose, dooming the Skins to mediocrity, by the ill-advised move to the 3-4, which has dominated the off season to the detriment of the offense, and giving in to Allen’s plan (possibly dictated by Snyder’s sudden austerity drive), to build a team of old, cheap veterans, literally not spending money on anybody. On the latter, we can still hope that Allen and Shanahan are brilliantly biding their time , waiting to grab that perfect right tackle.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 14, 2010 11:15 PM EDT reply actions  

Snyder

I have had two family friends (who own their own business) tell me details of how Snyder screwed them in deals they had working. Not encouraging the tactics he uses.

Hogs Haven. On Twitter. And Facebook.

by Kevin Ewoldt on Jun 15, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Snyder

Kevin – does Snyder have an MBA? Based on your and others’ stories, he would have benefitted from courses in marketing and economics. He seems to think that he makes the most money by raising prices. It doesn’t work like that – there is a cost/sales curve which can help spot the optimum price to maximize profits. You want people to happily buy your product. Charging so much that customers don’t come back is stupid. He may have been boxed in at Six Flags by high debt, causing him to try to maximize short term cash flow, but the Board’s anger suggests he was just heavy handed. Your story (and Redskin park operations) suggests he is very ruthless, too. All in all, he does not seem to be a very good businessman or manager – apparently making his money by pure drive, greed and luck. And he had about the worst public relations operation since Hitler let Goebbels take over.

by Donnio1234 on Jun 15, 2010 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

This sums up Snyder's business career

the man is most certainly not a business genius.

All in all, he does not seem to be a very good businessman or manager – apparently making his money by pure drive, greed and luck. And he had about the worst public relations operation since Hitler let Goebbels take over.

"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins

by smutsboy1 on Jun 16, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Donnio,

Snyder an MBA???? LMAO
he dropped out of college to charter spring break parties…..Snyder Communications was a college student marketing scam, are you hearing me now?
The man doesn’t even have an associates degree

I’m glad you finally did your own research on Danny, not so great a guy is he?
Did you find out his connection to Tom Cruise yet? hilarious

The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button

by Skins Fan '77 on Jun 16, 2010 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

optimism / patience

There are some very knowledgable Redskin fans who have great posts!
Both Shanahan’s HAVE to realize that you can only have limited success with a average OL
Unless they see talent that had not shown itself previously then we might be worrying needlessly….THEY GOTTA KNOW HOW IMPORTANT AN OL is…..especially for an aging backfield . OR they just surely PLAN to grab the skilled players that they need ..SOON.
Didnt NE use a few( inexpensive ) veteran rb,dl during their sb years?

sbredskinsnabb

by sbredskinsnabb on Jun 15, 2010 11:52 AM EDT reply actions  

And an inexpensive 6th rounder named Tom
Didnt NE use a few( inexpensive ) veteran rb,dl during their sb years?

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

by Scott E on Jun 15, 2010 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

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