Pro Football Focus Weighs in on Redskins' Donovan McNabb Trade; Stats Don't Lie
by Kevin Ewoldt on Apr 6, 2010 8:16 AM EDT
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TDs |
INT |
TDS |
RTG |
Sacked |
Hit |
|
|
McNabb |
22 |
10 |
3,553 |
92.9 |
38 |
67 |
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Campbell |
20 |
15 |
3,618 |
86.4 |
46 |
97 |
The offensive production for the two QBs seem pretty close. I found it equally surprising based on the NFL.com offensive line stats that the Eagles had the 21st worst OLine in the league (in regards to sacks allowed), but chatting with ProFootballFocus.com, they painted a much different picture in that it's not nearly that simple (I guess it never is).
Sacks are only a minor subset of pressure. [In 2008], across the league, they accounted for only 16% of all pressure when hits and pressure on the QB are included. A "hit" is when a QB is knocked down but not sacked and a pressure is when a QB is forced to move in the pocket in some other way than simply stepping up into it to throw.
So what does pressure do to a QB? Well, when pressured or hit, a players QB rating is reduced by an average of 37 points. That's the equivalent of turning Peyton Manning into Brad Johnson on every single play where you get pressure. Interestingly, whilst it's great for the team, sacking a QB doesn't alter the opposing Quarterbacks' rating.
So if pressure not sacks is the key stat how does this affect our view of the NFL and where have we been "misled"?
It's much more to do with understanding the defense, pocket presence and quick release. You only need to watch a handful of games to see Manning, Drew Brees or Jay Cutler reading the situation and delivering the ball in such a way as to avoid the sack. In the 1980's Dan Marino took very few sacks despite pressure because of the player he was. [PFF]
How many times did we see Campbell stand in the pocket and get absolutely creamed? He never had that McNabb/Manning ability shuffle out of the way. If The Redskins are able to get a 3rd round pick for McNabb, this trade is looking very good (especially since you'd much rather groom a new QB under McNabb then Colt, Rex, and Campbell).
I pinged Pro Football Focus on their thoughts of the trade:
PFF: I don't think there's any doubt that McNabb is an upgrade but I think that will come in two areas:
a. His actual ability to throw the football
b. The fact he will be trusted far more to run a complete offense
Whilst his passing skills only rank about mid-table of NFL QBs these days, that's good enough to win consistently when both the defense and the running game are functioning and it's certainly better than Campbell. He still has some problems with accuracy and whilst its fair to say his completion percentage numbers are skewed a bit by his love of going deep to DeSean Jackson (Jackson was targeted 112 times but could only come up with 56% of these) I think you'll spend at least a few plays this season scratching your heads and saying "who was that for?" as a ball sails into the benches and Donovan shakes his head and puts his hands on his hips.
The crucial bit for me though is that they'll let him run the full offense. I always got the impression watching the Campbell that he was reigned in a lot and looking at these passing charts (McNabb & Campbell) the numbers back this up; Campbell threw over 10 yards only 23% of the time whereas McNabb's numbers were 37% of the time over 10 yards. He'll certainly want to stretch the field more and I think a lot of teams will have to play the skins differently as a result.
My biggest concern for Washington is how do you keep him upright? The line is awful and adding in a few rookies (unless they play like Joe Thomas or Jake Long) will probably not bear fruit for a few years. Plugging in Artis Hicks may or may not help; don't forget this is a guy who couldn't beat out Anthony Herrera but given the way the Vikes manage their line is like an episode of the "Twighlight Zone" it may be OK.
As bad as the Redskins oline was, Jason Peters did not have a good year at LT for the Eagles. I don't recall McNabb ever getting scraped off the ground like Campbell consistently was, but you have to imagine the Danaplan has more tricks for Redskins fans. Perhaps some package deals involving current players to get back into the 2nd round.
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I dunno
I still think Okung with #1 and trading for Gaither with #2. But that’s just me…
by Hustler of Culture on Apr 6, 2010 8:40 AM EDT reply actions
Can't go wrong with that...
But it’s obvious no coaches except for Gibbs thought Campbell was a QB that could lead a team deep in the playoffs.
It definitely warrants a poll, which I’ll put out once we see what we get back for Campbell.
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
We can't trade for Gaither...
…because we just traded our #2 for McNabb.
by ScribbledNotes on Apr 6, 2010 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
He is saying he'd rather have Gaither than McNabb
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
Yup
That’s what I was saying. I’m also pretty sick right now which is what I am going to use for my half-finished statement above….
by Hustler of Culture on Apr 6, 2010 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Use for my EXCUSE for my....
Jeez, I should probably go back to bed…
by Hustler of Culture on Apr 6, 2010 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Gaither
PFT is reporting the Ravens threw out the Gaither trade rumors just to get him to show up at the facilities more.
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
by Kevin Ewoldt on Apr 6, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
So...
What did they say about difference in the pocket? I absolutely agree that Campbell was never given the keys to the full offense in Zorn’s years (at least not after that win streak in 08 when we actually saw the team air it out a few times per game). And so if it takes bringing in McNabb just so we can actually start taking risks, then I’m happy in that regard. Although I don’t think Shanahan would ever have been as afraid of taking risks in play-calling as Zorn always was.
But back to my point. What are the stats in terms of hurries and pressures in addition to hits and sacks? What do the experts say when they look at recent film on McNabb? Does he still have the ability to evade pressure and stay in the pocket? A lot of time last year when Campbell had pressure, he left the pocket, either to throw from outside the tackle box or to start running. Granted, he was able to make some key plays there, but he also lost his ability to make some plays. Some of that has to do with the fact that the pocket would so often absolutely collapse from all sides. But does McNabb stand a better chance this year of being able to stay upright in that pocket until the play is over? And once we’ve answered that question, I’ll ask: will there actually be a pocket to stand in, or is all of this for moot?
BTW, I know what he’s done throughout his career. But I really saw almost nothing of him last year and only a little the year before. I’m trying to find out if he still has the ability to stand tall in a collapsing pocket.
after Samuels went down,
there was rarely a pocket at all last year…collapsing or otherwise. For this trade to work, they have got to get much better play out of the Oline. One way would be to use a lot of 2 TE sets
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Apr 6, 2010 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions
Perhaps
But I don’t think that’s going to solve much. A 2TE set can bolster a line, but when the line itself sucks, rushers are just going to sidestep the ends and push their way through the crappy tackles and guards. Our right side right now is just awful. If CP can get back to form in pas-blocking, that’d be great. If Sellers can get back to form in everything, that would also be great. But TEs and RBs and FBs are all just there to support the line. If the line sucks, there’s really only so much those guys can do for us, you know? I still don’t know what the Skins plan to do about a RT.
You’re absolutely right though. This trade is a complete waste without solid o-line play, and it’s still going to be kind of weak if we don’t get some good RB play in the next year or two. I don’t think any tailback we have right now is going to give us much, so I think we need some new blood at that position, too. I just think that QB was a lot further down our list of priorities than this trade warranted.
One thing that irked me last year
You didn’t see the RBs chip on rushers. It was amazing how many times the RBs went on pass routes and didn’t chip. I’m not counting the 453 screens when your not supposed to chip.
That's kind of what happens
When you’ve got a bunch of underqualified guys as your RBs. Portis and Betts were both always great at pass blocking, but Portis went down and Betts didn’t get playing time until Portis went down, and then he went down too. Guys like Ganther and Mason have spent their entire short careers just struggling to stick onto whatever teams they can. They haven’t had time to learn the intricate details of their positions; they have to show their skill and learn how to contribute on special teams… Cartwright, though, should have known how to pass block. And how to run, for that matter. Never understood why he thought he deserved to be a starting running back in this league. Accept the fact that you’re a special teams player, dude.
/post
My biggest concern for Washington is how do you keep him upright? The line is awful and adding in a few rookies (unless they play like Joe Thomas or Jake Long) will probably not bear fruit for a few years. Plugging in Artis Hicks may or may not help; don’t forget this is a guy who couldn’t beat out Anthony Herrera but given the way the Vikes manage their line is like an episode of the “Twighlight Zone” it may be OK.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Minnesota
watch the Vikings get screwed by Favre’s antics this off season and get stuck without a starting QB b/c he decides to retire last minute.
This might occur after the draft and if JC is still here then his worth will sky rocket to 3rd and maybe even 2nd round value for the 2011 draft.
i think Shanahan will hold onto JC in the hopes that his value increases because of some unforseen circumstances which will cause teams to reevaluate their needs at QB.
That's a good point
But there’s still the issue of how few picks we have this year. It’s Shanahan and Allen’s first year on the job, and I’m sure they’d like to have more picks around to really put their imprint on this team.
they've got Rosenfels and he's not as bad as you think
another ’Skin that got away…..
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Apr 6, 2010 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Who? Oh, yeah.
Bet they’d rather have Campbell.
by Scorin' Scalps on Apr 6, 2010 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
sounds great, in theory
he just better find a way to fix the line other than hope for a last minute widfall….
So
Okung was in Ashburn yesterday…
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Am I missing something?
If The Redskins are able to get a 3rd round pick for McNabb, this trade is looking very good
Anyway, this article pretty much sums up my thoughts. No, McNabb." is not the QB he once was, and no he is not the best passer in the league. But he is one of the best at managing a game, and he knows how to win.
Believe me, my first thoughts were “Here we go again.” But I really don’t think this compares to past blunders. This isn’t Jason Taylor, because McNabb is actually committed to football, and he will fit into our scheme. Plus, I believe McNabb has more left in the tank than Taylor. I guess you could say it’s similar to the Brunell signing. But, truthfully, how bad did that work our for us? He got our only playoff win of the decade. He gave us the “2 minute miracle” in Dallas. The reason the Brunell experiment went bad was because he lost his arm strength. But that was evident when he was still in Jacksonville. McNabb still has his arm, so that won’t be a problem. And, while he’s not as mobile as he used to be, he’s still a lot more nimble than Brunell was when he got here.
Anyway, bottom line, I still say that McNabb has to start for us at least 3-4 years to make this trade worth it. And we definitely need to get something back for Campbell, even if it’s in next years draft.
It's a big-picture mistake
in and of itself it’s not an awful trade- but trades don’t happen in a vacuum.
For the 800th year in a row, we’re trading picks for vets, and then we wonder why we have so many holes and so many aging starters.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Yeah this confused me too
A 3rd for Campbell, right?
I think we get a 4th if we’re lucky for Campbell. But some Rams fan was telling me there was a rumor we give Campbell for the Rams 4th and Alex Barron, a former 1st round pick by the Rams who plays right tackle.
Don’t know how legit that is, but I’d take it in about .5 seconds
Although that means the Rams take
Suh and the Lions take Okung, which means we either take Bulaga at #4 or find a trading partner….
My friends in STL said no way they want Campbell
They said the whole city is enamored to Bradford and it would take A LOT for them to trade out of that spot.
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
Altho this goes out the window since the team is in SELL limbo
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
Reports are that the owners aren't putting any restrictions on money spent in this draft though
Just read that yesterday, if I dig up the link I’ll post it.
smoke and mirrors!!!
haha
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
Colt McCoy just arrived at Redskins Park....
Shanahan: “Hello Colt, meet Donovan McNabb.”
Colt McCoy: “Hey Dono…wait, what? Why the hell am I here?”
Colt Brennan: “It’s great here..you ride the pine and bang lots of chicks during the season. We could be the double colt barrel.”
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
by Kevin Ewoldt on Apr 6, 2010 10:24 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Rick Maese via Twitter
and Rachel Nichols were reporting that McNabb is in Ashburn working out with his new teamates prior to the press conference. Sounds like he is getting off on the right foot by leading by example. Positive sign if you ask me.
McNabb, McCoy
Seems to me that they might still go for McCoy or Tebow (or Clausen if available) if they can round up some 2nd round and/or third round picks (which ought to be easy). Would not be good for the other Colt. And it would be a surprise, but I could even see Donovan being traded as part of a package deal, gunning for Bradford or Clausen. The Rams dumping Bulger is a little discouraging though. What are the experts saying about the chances of Okung being available at #4?
easy? easy!?
if they can round up some 2nd round and/or third round picks (which ought to be easy).
Oh right, the mythical moronic GM that wants Carlos Rogers or Laron Landry.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
yeah,
easy is a stretch. But trading back is still an option. And I think we’ll get a 4th for Campbell.
ok that was kind of an unnecessary post
I know that there’s value in every draft pick. And I really wasn’t reacting to you, but to the people who think that getting a starter in the 4th will be easy as pie.
no, it won't
and I know everyone wants to stock up on linemen (including me). But what if Shanny pulls his magic in the draft and finds a Pro Bowl running back in the 4th? I know, that’s a big if. But it is very possible.
Pro Bowl? Big if
Effective for one or two years? He’s done it many times before. A lot of his draft magic with late-round RBs depends on his line being able to execute his zone blocking scheme though. That’s where the real challenge lies.
My only problem...
Hindsight being 20/20 and now that the “Ahhh” factor is starting to die down, my problem: Rex Grossman. Say what you want about Campbell, but we’re one hit from starting Rex Grossman and that will continue to be a problem for me. I would much rather keep Campbell as the backup, but no one seems to think that’s likely. McNabb is starting to show plenty of signs of injury, and AT LEAST, Jason has proved he can take a hit (it hurts me to admit that).
My guess is that JC has all but demanded a trade.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
But to where???
I mean, the options suck. Who would want to play for Buffalo or Oakland? Carolina wouldn’t be bad, but will they bite on a trade? St. Louis has already dropped Bulger and will probably select Bradford #1. Does he want to play behind the guy who everyone just “KNEW” would replace him in Washington???
His best option, in my opinion, is to stay here. Too bad it won’t happen.
He's been undermined repeatedly, if I were him I'd go pretty much anywhere else
Sign a 1 year deal and see if there’s a better market in a year or two.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
undermined...thank god that saga is HISTORY
4-12…and it is still all about JC..I couldn’t stand watching them with him playing QB…first time since 1965…I played golf most Sundays or watch Direct Tv and the rest of the league
undermined..Saunders was known as a pretty good OC
before Jason ran his plays
How well was Brunell doing in that system?
It was just a tired old system that defensive coordinators had learned to stop. He sure hasn’t taken it anywhere else and become successful.
Maybe that's why you think it was all his fault
Despite the line, running game, play calling, scheme…. oh never mind. If you want to come on here and talk shit about our QB, maybe admitting you didn’t watch the games isn’t the best way to go about it.
Serious business.
No, it's not all about JC. This is just a side story
but you sure showed who you were preoccupied with.
4-12…and it is still all about JC..I couldn’t stand watching them with him playing QB…first time since 1965…I played golf most Sundays or watch Direct Tv and the rest of the league
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Carolina would be the bet, from Jason's perspective.
It’s the ideal place for Jason to go, really, a decent team with a working OLine, reasonable Defense, and enough places that the pickup of a decent, though not superstar, QB would put them in as a perennial playoff team, a position Jason would be ideal for.
I’d been predicting that Jason would most likely end up there if he left the Redskins for a long time. Next best would be Favre staying retired, and then the Vikings would be interested in Campbell (he’s by far the best option that would be available).
JC is the only starting quality QB on the market right now, so yeah, I can see a number of teams being interested. Most of them won’t be really interested until after the draft though, so we won’t get squat before the draft unless we take a lowball offer from the Bills or Raiders; both of those would be doing dirty by Campbell.
yeah I'm hoping 2 teams start bidding against each other
our only hope to get fair market value.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
If we trade a starting QB for a third rounder, that would be stupid and a slap in the face to Jason.
Shit I am prepared for a 5th rounder and maybe even a 4th if we're lucky
How can we expect other teams to value him when we have been pissing on him for years. We need to trade him, everyone knows it. What we will get for him will most likely not reflect true market value for him.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, we have been pissing on him for years, undeservably.
But in a scenario that we keep him (unlikely) he’d hold that same “value” of a third, fourth, or fifth pick next year as a backup. Right now, as a starter, you shouldn’t ask for anything less than a 2nd round pick.
I think people are getting too caught up on draft picks and forgetting that we now have the 4th lowest payroll in the league. Meaning, we still can get guys straight up who are experienced and needing work once the draft is done. We couldn’t possible answer all of our needs through the draft anyway. So, no. I wouldn’t jump at late round picks and undervalue Campbell, regardless.
well he is working out away from the team until his trade happens
So I think it might be a done deal. Honestly I think everyone who hasn’t jumped completely on the Shanny bandwagon is gone. Rocky, Carlos, Carter, Big AL if anyone will take him. We will see I guess and I’m not sure JC would have more value next year unless he came in for an injured McNabb and played well.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh I know he's gone, I'm just sayin...
I wouldn’t take just “anything” for him. It’s the perfect scenario to waste money and look like an ass at end of the day.
Next year he has no value because next year he walks free
And we’ll get no compensatory picks for him because we won’t have lost a starter. It’s not under-valuing Campbell if that’s all you can get for him. Yes, whoever pays the price of a 4th round pick will get great value from that trade. But that doesn’t mean that anyone is going to pay more than that. Take what you can get.
Apples and oranges
I see your point. Get “something”. I just like a little insurance, that’s all. So far I think we’ve done pretty well with “value”. Just think that a late round pick for a 28 year old starting QB is a steal for some other team. But hey, I can’t say we didn’t get Donovan for a steal either.
I don't think McNabb was a "steal"
A high-second rounder should get you a starter for longer than we’ll have McNabb for, and at a cheaper rate… But that’s neither here nor there. Insurance is cool, but Campbell doesn’t want to be here any more. Between an unhappy Campbell and a happy Grossman, I’d still take Campbell. But he deserves his chance to go somewhere and have his shot at starting. The guy is a starter, not a backup.
You are correct about JC asking for a trade.
As of about 4PM today, Shanahan talked at Redskins park about his discussion with JC yesterday. S said JC asked for the opportunity to be a ‘starting QB’ and Shanny gave him permission to talk to other teams. My thoughts are that ShanAllanhan are welcoming this investigation through JC’s agent, and that they want to test the market to see if they can pick up the drafts we lost to Philly.
If nothing comes up good enough, then ShanAllanhan go to the 2nd option, of keeping JC this year (at least through training camp), and see if anyone’s QB goes down, and JC’s stock rises.
I’d rather have JC than RG as a backup, but Shanny is trying to let JC test the market.
We now have five QB’s on the roster, and may even draft a sixth. I’m betting that ShanAllanhan keep their options open as to the three they will keep, unless we get an offer we can’t refuse. Shanny also said today that “if JC doesn’t find his chance to start in the NFL, we would welcome him back, and I know he will give 110% to being on this team”.
Shanny’s keeping all options open.
Ehhhh
I moved from super skeptical to blindly hoping all the neccesary dominos fall into place to make this trade actually work. So here’s hoping we can improve the O-line, Fix the running game, get 4 years with no slippage out of McNabb, avoid a lockout next year(depriving us of one of his few remaining years), improve the defense atleast marginally, hit on a large amount of late draft picks and undrafted guys to fill out depth which we lack at many positions, sign him to a reasonable extension, be able to acquire or draft/develop a QB before McNabb is done, keep him healthy. If we can get all that stuff done in the next 2 years it will work great.
Shall I knock you unconscious now so that you can dream all of this
or would you rather continue to vainly hope for every one of those dominoes to fall into place?
by kseandoyle on Apr 6, 2010 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
stats dont lie
but they definilty dont tell you the full story on McNabb
How hard can it be to learn the playbook in Philly? Pass, Pass, Pass, Punt.
So what are the chances we dive headfirst into FA next year
and outspend everyone in the league to put a competitive team around McNabb? I’d say 90%. Chances on us trading a 2011 draft pick for Marshall I would put at 40%.
I'd take Marshall though.
In a New York minute. Damn the “distractions”. A hundred balls a year…sick.
him and LJ could compare wifebeating techniques
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah but B. Marshall pulled a gun on his Dad
not sure LJ packs that kinda heat but who knows.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
every passing year there's less & less available in free agency
teams have learned how to lock up their good young players, unless they made some kind of mistake.
most players available have some kind of baggage. Age, injuries, consistency, etc.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
yeah but there will be 2 draft classes of FA hitting the market next year presumably
Not advocating it but is there any doubt we are gonna win the offseason spending spree next year?
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions
It'll be interesting to see
what the talk will be when McNabb gets his yearly injury. If JC is gone, will the Skins have as capable a backup as Kolb?
Upon moving to AL, I let my wife decide who she would root for. After one day at a new job full of Bama fans, she met me at the door with a hearty cry of "WAR EAGLE"
by SandMountainTiger on Apr 6, 2010 1:22 PM EDT reply actions
And that's what worries me.
To think that Rex Grossman is one hit from calling plays…(smh)…
But, don’t get so high on Kolb. He’s got bust written all over him. Your best option at QB is Vick right now. But Philly fans won’t realize that until about week 9, maybe.
we haven't had a qb that called his own plays
since Kilmer
Disagree about Kolb.
What we’ve seen of him so far has been very impressive. Reminds me of what we saw of Aaron Rodgers filling in for Brett Favre before they turned the offense over to him.
McNabb Stats
For those of you who really believe that McNabb is bringing his stats with him to DC, think again.
Most experts rated the Philly O-line top 5 in the league last year, and their offensive line was actually nominated by a group of experts for the protectors of the year award. Sure he got sacked more than other teams, but when you throw the ball twice as many times as most teams around the league, sure you’ll give up more sacks. More pass attempts = more sacks. It is not a good way to evaluate an O-line.
Now enter Washington Redskins. I would put our O-line in the bottom 5 of the entire league last year. So McNabb is moving from a top 5 O-line to a bottom 5 O-line. His stats are likely to take a significant hit this year.
Okun the answer to O-line problems? No. Okung is simply a necessary replacement for Chris Samuels who we unfortunately lost last year. He’s replacing a pro-bowl left tackle. We know how poorly the O-line played with Chris Samuels in there, and there’s no reason to expect it to play better with Okung in there to replace Samuels. Best case is that we didn’t lose any ground on the O-line by replacing Samuels spot with Okung.
All we are left with is 4th round and later draft picks to address the rest of our O-line. It’s possible we can find some depth, but that late in the draft it’s hard to see us finding O-line upgrades.
So, we have McNabb moving from a top 5 O-line to a bottom 5 O-line and his stats are going to take a significant hit. He may not even be able to put up the numbers that Campbell put up last year, given their stats are so similar already.
Most NFL ansysts constantly repeat the phrase, “it all starts up front” for a reason. Apparently the front office of the Redskins has never believed in that concept.
The O-line represents the wheels on a car. You can have the best engine in the world running the vehicle, but without wheels the car is going NOWHERE!!
I'm super skeptical of McNabb but I can't really agree with the top 5 O-line last year argument
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd say somewhere around 10-12
Nothing special, but very reliable.
In other words, MUCH better than ours.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I didn't make the top 5 argument
They were nominated by a group of NFL experts (Madden, Rich Eisen, Steve Mariucci, Marshall Faulk, and another ex-NFL O-lineman as one of 5 teams for the top O-line of the year honors. Sorry, but I trust their opinions much more than I trust yours.
“All season Hall of Fame Coach John Madden and the Award’s Purple Ribbon Panel of football experts have closely tracked the offensive lines in the NFL. Following the end of regular season play, the top five finalists were announced: the INDIANAPOLIS COLTS, NEW ORLEANS SAINTS, NEW YORK JETS, PHILADELPHIA EAGLES and the TENNESSEE TITANS.”
Now I really disagree
The Colts? Well I guess people can find anything on the internet to support an argument.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 2:57 PM EDT up reply actions
That is a panel of experts and you are not
Enough said
Hahahahahaha
Neither of us are experts. www.Profootballfocus.com , www.Footballoutsiders.com, and nfl.com all have Philly ranked outside of the top 5. You would find alot more consensus among “experts” that Philly was outside of the top 5. If you substituted the Colts and the Eagles for the Ravens and the Dolphins it would make more sense. But then again a vaunted “Panel of Experts” trumps any logical counterpoints huh?
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
This argument is really not the point
Even on the sites you provided, you can clearly see that at least 20 teams separating Philadelphia’s O-line from the Washington Redskins O-line. They are top tier in most analytics and the Redskins are bottom 5 if not bottom 3 in most categories. So the argument over exacty ranking is neither here nor there. My point was the extreme difference between the two o-lines which sticks no matter which site you use for rankings. So thinking McNabb can put up similar lines with an inferior o-line seems like asking for a miracle. Neglect for the o-line got us in this mess and will continue to keep us in this mess.
All I said was that I didn't think Philly was a top 5 O-line last year
Which got you a little huffy. I never said our O-lines are comparable. I agree with your sentiment just not to the degree that you do. My thoughts are more in line with Smutsboy.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry
For coming off “huffy” as we are all in the same boat here. I’m just extremely frustrated with this organization at this point. Don’t take it the wrong way.
I didn't and can understand the frustration
I mostly agree with you. HTTR.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Even I'm not that skeptical
I think McNabb will put up similar stats to what he did last year. He’ll take more sacks, lose more games, and possibly turn the ball over, but he wont all of a sudden fall to pieces. Neither will he give us the boost, in my opinion, needed to be in the playoff conversation.
I don't think anyone can realistically say what he will do
It’s easy to throw out Elway and Favre’s names but McNabb has reached the point where alot of great QB’s go downhill and downhill fast. McNabb is entering his 12th season. Jim Kelly played 11 seasons. His 10th season he put up numbers comparable to McNabb and his 11th season he stunk and that was it. Steve Young played 13 seasons. His 12th season he was unstoppable, his 13th he managed 3 games and was done. Troy Aikman played 12 seasons. His 11th was solid his 12th was atrocious even when he wasn’t hurt. Steve McNair(the best comparison of QB styles imho) played 13 seasons. Steve McNair played 13 season but put up JC numbers his last couple years. Injuries caused most of their demises but last I checked McNabb wasn’t injury proof and thats the kinda stuff that happens to older QB’s. Some QB’s in their 30’s slowly lose their skills or ability to handle the hits over some years. For others the wheels fall off the bus quite quickly. Only time will tell which way McNabb will go.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 9:55 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't see how with our lesser talent
I think McNabb will put up similar stats to what he did last year.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
JC put up similar stats to McNabb last year
So I think either one of them can do that in this system, as long as McNabb can withstand the beating he’s going to take. Other than that, he is more talented than JC, so there’s no reason why he shouldn’t duplicate his performance (individual stats-wise) from last year.
JC had a LOT of scrub stats...when the game was out of reach
and teams were playing prevent/backups
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
And McNabb played in an offense that ALWAYS chose to pass
But I don’t think JC’s “garbage time” or “scrub stats” account for as much as people claim that they do. It’s not like the guy had 4 yards passing going into the fourth quarter every week. If I recall correctly, his best quarter was usually the third quarter.
McNabb’s stats can be skewed by the fact that he showed up very poorly against good teams and bulked up his stats against bad teams. That could be said to undermine his numbers because he couldn’t do his job when it really counted (see: Dallas games).
Point is, stats aren’t an absolute indicator of talent/ability/success… But they’re not absolute for Campbell and they’re not absolute for McNabb, either.
THis will be the pinnacle of Snyderism
when this fails. Buy, Snyder, buy, buy, buy! They are all cast offs!!! Shanny. Allen. McNabb. LJ. Parker. And what do they have in common? ZERO football fundamentals! No line! What turned around the Vikings? Steve Hutchenson. Seattle gave him up after their superbowl and look at the direction of their team! Build a line. Build consistency. And win.
Even if we take Okung. Where’s the rest.
you didn't hear? Okung plays RT and RG at the same time
wait, I mean, we’re trading Landry, Rogers & Haynesworth for three first round picks!!!!!
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
More to my point....
That this is dirty danny work. I just received my e-mail that if I buy two season tickets, I will recieve a FREE McNabb replica jersey! buy FOUR and it’s AUTOGRAPHED!!!!!
...bash Danny..
there has always been something maniacal about being a Redskin fan…
too bad the past 17 years have produced a generation of manic depressents
First Norv....
…then SNYDER. That’s enough to earn platinum membership to Alcoholics Anonymous.
by killianskid34 on Apr 6, 2010 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not like the results don't justify depression
too bad the past 17 years have produced a generation of manic depressents
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
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