Mike Shanahan, Donovan McNabb and Bruce Allen: Three Guys Who Have Never Been In My Kitchen
by Ken Meringolo on Apr 5, 2010 12:54 PM EDT
in Redskins Analysis
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PrintFor those of you who get this Cheers reference, thank you. I had to channel Cliff Clavin today because I don't know the real right answer, so I was inspired to steal his wrong (yet still correct) response in Final Jeopardy while trying to not get angry in my headline. I always desperately wanted a quarterback like McNabb, but I never envisioned the Eagle would land here. (is that your first "The Eagle Has Landed" reference? 50/50 chance maybe?)
This is not meant to be a Kool-Aid post. I am very much conflicted about this new McNabb era. While I will do my best to refrain from covering ground you have no doubt covered already in previous posts, forgive me for hitting on common threads, as I plod through the various reasons this is not the worst move we have made since Snyder took over.
I believe Shanahan and Allen were committed to using the 2nd round pick on a QB in the upcoming draft. Setting aside for the moment that McNabb was an Eagle, if you would have told me that with our second round pick in this year's draft we would get a veteran, 6-time Pro Bowler that Shanahan would immediately trust and allow to take risks on the field, I would be wearing a huge grin. As much as we all may have wanted a guy like Colt McCoy or Tony Pike, or some other young buck to come in and learn under the Shanahans, the fact of the matter is that drafting a quarterback is like playing the lottery. You buy the ticket, and you spend all your time before the drawing dreaming about how you are going to spend your millions. Then the results are announced and maybe one person out of the millions who played is happy...or even more likely, everyone loses. This 2nd round pick was not wasted. We know exactly what we are getting. The long-term upside is not necessarily the same as hitting on a game-changing rookie. But if you are already sold on burning the pick on a rookie quarterback, landing a player of McNabb's caliber is a slam dunk (unless he plays for the Philadelphia Eag.....damn it.) Sticking with the 2nd round slot for a second, there have been murmurs that Jared Gaither could have been available via trade with this selection. We'll never know for sure of course, but the suggestion that the upgrade to Gaither would have been greater than the upgrade to McNabb is probably flawed.
It's Always SONNY in Philadelphia: I am probably the 79th person to bring this up in the last hour, but the symmetry is subconsciously reassuring. The lack of any precedent at all for me to clutch might otherwise send me spinning right off the freaking planet. Let's not waste our time and energy comparing the McNabb deal with the Jurgensen deal...the leitmotif here is that a very good quarterback migrated from the Eagles to the Redskins, and the world kept on turning.
I have been saying it since they signed Shanahan...veteran coaches want veteran quarterbacks. Did I think we were going to trade for McNabb...hell, no. But you look at what established coaches do when they move to new teams, and there is no surprise that Shanahan wants a veteran under center that he can trust. It is clear that Jason Campbell had not done enough to warrant being trusted to lead the new coaching regime into the future. What did Gibbs do when he got here? He moved quickly to bring in Brunell, with an unproven Patrick Ramsay swept aside at the first possible opportunity. Bill Parcells, Dick Vermeil, and even Tom Coughlin (to name a few of the older coaches in the league who took over teams in the last decade) all brought in veterans to lead their offenses (or at least push the incumbent to fight for his job.) Interestingly, Bruce Allen was the General Manager of the Oakland Raiders when they signed Rich Gannon-Gannon was essentially the same age as McNabb when he signed in Oakland. Gannon went on to win consecutive NFL MVP awards in 2001 and 2002.
Mike Shanahan and Jake Plummer's marriage in Denver is relevant here because Plummer reminds me at least a little of McNabb. He was younger when he signed with Denver (28 years old), and he was a free agent coming off a down year for the Cardinals, as opposed to getting traded. But Plummer took the Cardinals to heights they had not experienced in ages when he led them to the playoffs and beat the Cowgirls in 1998. McNabb put the Philly franchise on his back during his time there and is largely responsible for the respect that team has garnered league-wide during that time. Plummer had arguably his most disappointing season in 2002, falling below the league average in passer rating, yards and touchdowns. Unfortunately for him, it was a contract year. Shanahan was still trying to replace John Elway and Brian Griese was not cutting it (perhaps some of you remember the expressions on Shanahan's face on the sidelines as he watched Griese give games away.) Plummer was a mobile quarterback, fairly accurate, and had a reputation for winning games in the clutch, making him a perfect candidate to try and pick up Elway's place in Shanahan's offense. McNabb is a mobile, accurate quarterback that brings instant credibility to the offense Shanahan wants to run.
Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly just got better. So did Heyer, Dockery and Rabach. First the wide receivers...I know I wasn't the only one who saw those guys running open at times downfield with nary an attempt from JC. Campbell was unwilling to take certain risks--whether that was based on a mandate from the coaches or just his lack of confidence--and while this resulted in lower interception totals than some of his colleagues around the league, it also resulted in fewer big plays. McNabb pulls the trigger a lot faster than JC and if he smells a window for those bigger targets downfield, he is going to let it fly. Which makes our line look better too--I was being a little sarcastic about Heyer, Dockery, and Rabach, but the truth is that McNabb is more capable of identifying where a blitz is coming from and getting rid of the ball to the right guy than Campbell. He requires less time to compute things in the pocket than Campbell, which is a skill he will need unless they bring in a stud or two to upgrade the line.
The offense this year has instant credibility inside the offices of defensive coordinators around the league. As I said above, McNabb is a known quantity. He is an upgrade to the most important position on the field for us, and he is capable of making players who were glaringly insufficient last season look less so this year (not an excuse to ignore the OL in the draft.) Santana Moss is going to remind McNabb a lot of DeSean Jackson, and the tight end duo of Chris Cooley and Fred Davis should flourish with the seasoned quarterback reading the defense. Devin Thomas and Malcolm Kelly will benefit greatly by McNabb's willingness to spread the ball around and compute through his reads insanely faster than Campbell did. All of this should spell success for our running game as well, since defenses will have to play McNabb pretty honestly.
Bottom line: The 2010 Washington Redskins are a LOT better today then they were yesterday. But it still feels wrong...like there should have been some other way. It is one thing to inherit someone else's hand-me-downs, but to get a guy that the Eagles don't want...hurts. We have rooted against Donovan for the last decade. To see him wearing burgundy and gold is going to be so weird...gonna have to wait to see it before I put myself through the torment of unwinding the angst generated by years of wishing bad things upon him.
Does it matter that McNabb chose us over Buffalo and Oakland? I guess...though not much. After all, we're talking about Buffalo and Oakland. I was immediately distraught when I saw the headline, and that is 100% driven by the fact that an Eagle is coming to town. But all of the above points have weighed on me during the last 18 hours. I am still very much in shock on this one, but if you care about winning, we probably just brought in a few wins overnight.
To the extent we can "get used" to this, we will. Drafting a Left Tackle on April 22nd will go a long way to calming the masses here and identifying a quarterback of the future in the next year or two will also help us all out. In the short term, here is what I am counting on:
* McNabb wants to beat NFC East opponents as much as we do...he has no love for the Cowgirls, Giants, and now Eagles.
* There should be few limitations on our offense come September, which will make it more fun to watch than in recent seasons.
* McNabb will be a good teammate and leader.
In the meantime, we are just going to need time for this to sink in and make sense. I did make one decision though...call it my nonviolent protest to an Eagle coming to town. As long as McNabb is a Redskin, my family will not buy or consume any Campbell's soup. I know how stupid that sounds, but somehow it keeps my "inner Ken" from taking a crow bar to my insides for even considering this as a decent roster move.
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I feel like the Ducks after getting Adam Banks.
It might take some getting use to, but that process will speed up as he starts lighting up the scoreboard.
Great post, by the way. Well written and well needed in the pessimistic crap-shoot of fanposts and comments today.
by SSBlitz on Apr 5, 2010 1:05 PM EDT reply actions 7 recs
hahaha – well said… and sadly i know the reference right off the bat
"If you want money, go to the bank. If you want bread, go to the bakery. If you want goals, go to the net." - Brooks Laich
"...I got the most gentlemanly player in juniors my last year. I'm a gentleman, always a gentleman." - Matt Bradley
After we've watched so many guys leave Washington
and have success elsewhere, maybe this is the Universe making things right by having McNabb get his ring while wearing Burgundy & Gold. Maybe. I hope.
Disagree completely that the o-line gets better
Last year, Eagles QBs were sacked 38 times and hit 67. Redskins QBs were sacked 46 times and hit 97. That’s a lot better ratio for Jason Campbell and company getting the ball out of their hands while getting hit than Donovan McNabb and company.
OK, maybe there would have been more hits and sacks but McNabb was getting the ball out fast enough to not even get hit. But I don’t think those instances make enough of a difference to show that Campbell doesn’t know how to get the ball out under pressure. Almost a fifth of his pass attempts were while getting hit. If nothing else, he’s got a lot of recent experience.
And how many of Campbell's
attempts were check-down passes to tight ends or running backs that resulted in minimal gain? I applaud using a stat here, but I question the validity of the interpretation.
Checkdowns aren't always his fault
If he is getting tackled and the only guy open is a tight end who is two yards shy of the first down, why is it a bad thing for him to get it to that guy? First of all, it’s better than a sack. Second of all, that tight end is only being asked to go six more feet. Third of all, we’ve all seen the reports that say that it was the playcallers who were calling the passes that were too short for first downs. You can’t keep blaming Campbell when his wideouts weren’t being given serious routes. They just brought the corners away from the ball and then started jogging a lot of the time, because that’s what their assigned roles were. The fact of the matter is, even if he got a 2-4 yard gain out of all of those passes, it was better than a 2-4 yard loss, even if on the next play we punted or attempted a field goal. No, I don’t have all of the statistics available, but the point is that in situations where the QB is getting wrapped up, Campbell has a higher percentage than McNabb of getting the ball out of his hands and preventing a sack.
Still, I find fault with what you're reading out of this stat
So he got hit proportionately more than he got sacked. Does this mean that he was faster getting the ball out under pressure? This is what you are arguing, but after watching this season, my eyes tell me that Campbell didn’t move to avoid the pressure and tended to take the shot after he made the pass. Why did Donovan get sacked for a larger percentage of his hits? Maybe it was because he effectively avoids pressure, so the only time he gets hit is if he’s got nowhere else to go and nowhere to send the ball. In this case, McNabb is actually better at getting the ball out under pressure because he handles the pressure better. I think that an interpretation like this matches the actual play on the field better. This is why I question your use of this stat.
Why not?
This is a league that protects its QBs. Yeah, penalties get missed sometimes, but roughing the passer penalties are more often called when they aren’t necessary than not called when they are necessary. The amount of times Campbell got hit after throwing the ball would be a negligible amount.
Quarterbacks can get hit legally
after they throw the ball. This happens all of the time. This is actually the definition of the “QB Hits” stat.
And as far as the later hits on the QB, those are called more often than not if your name is Brady, Manning or Brees—not Campbell.
I am not a Campbell detractor...
I was of the mind that we could make our team better around him and keep him in the fold. I am struggling with McNabb coming here, but you have to admit he is an upgrade over Campbell right? I mean, his experience and success in the NFL give him a decisive edge over JC right? I am just saying that he is at a point in his career where he is simply wired to process things on the field that JC has not progressed to yet.
by Ken Meringolo on Apr 5, 2010 1:47 PM EDT up reply actions
exactly
anyone who doesn’t admit we are instantly better at QB is crazy.
Also, all this argument over JC is kind of pointless now. We are essentially arguing over another teams player.
you are missing the arguments against this move
anyone who doesn’t admit we are instantly better at QB is crazy.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I'm not against Mcnabb
He is better than Campbell. I am against continuing to give up draft picks for a shiny new toy. I’m against thinking we are one or two players away from the super bowl and i am against having a guy start with us st a point where he is on the decline and has been for a few years. Its frustrating that anyone would bring up Brunell. How many Super Bowls did he win with us? I’m also frustrated that people say Mcnabb adds a few more wins. We only had 4 last year so we need a lot more than that and I was fine getting to 8 win this year while a new young team gels.
by monk81 on Apr 5, 2010 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
no, I'm not
I think if you’ve read my comments throughout this, you’d see that I was not happy about the trade in the beginning, and I still say it gets an incomplete at best depending on how long McNabb plays (and starts) for us. The point I was making here is that it is ludicrous to compare JC to McNabb. I have supported Campbell for years, but I am not delusional enough to ever think he is as good as McNabb, even with the age difference.
how many people are arguing JC is better?
these people are crazy.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
exactly what I've been saying
not just “JC is better”, but even comparable. I am not a JC hater, but he is not anywhere near McNabb’s caliber.
I haven't been saying that JC is better
I’ve just been saying that McNabb isn’t much of an upgrade. People are putting too much stock in his various intangibles in my opinion. From a stats-only perspective, you’ve got only a marginally better player based on their stats from last year. And as far as intangibles go… 4th quarter comebacks are now more likely. And that’s a good thing. But whereas JC is getting better every year, McNabb is getting worse every year. That’s why this trade is dumb. Because we give up an improving starter and a high draft pick for a declining starter and nothing else. Everything else is just details.
Correction
I am just saying that he is at a point in his career where he is simply wired to process things on the field that JC WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO.
So have we found our QB of the future? No.
Have we dimished our resources needed to find that guy? Yes.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions
In the past
The future has meant the next 2-3 years when we bring in a new coach so I’d say yes. McNabb has 3-4 good years left in my opinion.
Of course resources were used, just as they would have been with a rookie QB drafted with that pick, albeit with a much higher bust factor associated with the selection.
I think we still need to draft a QB this year or next year
Counting on McNabb for more than a season or 2 might be dangerous bet.
“In the past
The future has meant the next 2-3 years when we bring in a new coach so I’d say yes.” So does that mean your cool with how things have been around here the last 10 years?
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions
it kinda bothers me that dude
had everything to gain and had a workout where he only threw to stationary targets. I would rather he actually challenged himself and tried to improve his position. It’s one thing for Bradford to play it safe but a whole nother for LeFevour.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions
he cost himself some dough for sure
but it might work for us!
by Ken Meringolo on Apr 5, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I think you can apply the "use of resources argument"
since we traded for McNabb, but I think we as fans as looking one step ahead and saying bad, bad move, only Allen and Shanahan are thinking 4-5 steps ahead, and there is already a game plan to recoup some picks and therefore replenish our offensive line.
With what?
Haynesworth and Landry aren’t getting much on the trade market. Campbell is said to be worth a fourth round pick. We don’t have anyone who will be worth a second-round draft pick to another team.
And I’m not convinced that there’s a plan in place anymore. These guys kept on talking about building for the future, and now they have a guy who only has 2-3 years of good football left in him.
Just because Ramsey and JC didn't pan out doesn't mean I am gonna give up on drafting QB's as an organizational model
I mean we are like 1-3 seasons away from being in the same situation we were before. A serviceable QB who can’t carry the team on his back and no long term options at the QB spot. I think we still have to draft a QB in the next 2 drafts. I think at best it is kicking the can down the road a bit, at worst it is hurting our ability to get a QB.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 5:45 PM EDT up reply actions
completely agree
I do think we should draft a QB in one of the next few years to develop. I just think that having him develop behind McNabb is more beneficial.
Yup. Drafting is hard
that’s why you have to stick to it until you develop a youthful core.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
What I'm saying is that this move doesn't improve us enough
Yes, McNabb is better than Campbell, but not by much. Here is an article that cites Football Outsiders calling McNabb the 16th most efficient QB in 2009 and Campbell the 16th most efficient. You can talk about all he’s seen and learned in his time, but it’s pretty clear to me that McNabb is on the decline in his career. He is not an elite QB any more. While his skills are decreasing, Campbell’s are increasing. But like I said, my problem isn’t with having McNabb as the QB, per se. My problem is that we mortgaged the future on Donovan McNabb. We get a marginal improvement in the QB spot, but that should have been a lot lower on our priority list. We’ve set up a win-now mode to this upcoming season, but we still don’t have a good enough team to win now. If we had traded our second-round pick and vastly improved the team (i.e. get a pair of tackles), I would have supported it. But that wasn’t going to happen. Who cares if McNabb is better than Campbell right now? The rest of our offense is the same as it was yesterday, and the real problems with the offense were at RB and OL. When I bring up those stats, I’m trying to point out that we’re not getting someone who is vastly better than what we already had. I’m also trying to point out that we’re not getting someone who can do very well at evading the pressure that will be coming to him.
Fine, here's your link
Happy? It’s the first table on the page.
Anyone can go to Football Outsiders and see what I was talking about. I was just giving people that link so they could read another article on this current issue.
C'mon
McNabb is better than Campbell, but not by much
Forget about completion percentage. McNabb WINS games. Campbell never has. McNabb has been to 6 Pro Bowls. Campbell NEVER will.
I’m also trying to point out that we’re not getting someone who can do very well at evading the pressure that will be coming to him.
Have you ever watched when we play McNabb? No, he’s not gonna run for 30-40 yards a game. But he can move AROUND in the pocket. He can sidestep, HIGHSTEP, whatever step. He does it to us all the time. Ask Lavar Arrington, Marcus Washington, AND Brian Orakpo.
No, he will not do great behind our line as currently constructed. But he can do a lot more with a lot less than Campbell ever could. The way I remember it, Philly’s line was pretty much in flux all last year as well. And he has constantly used no name receivers to win games. I think our receiving corps is a lot better than any corps he ever had, from top to bottom.
you think our guys
are better than Jackson and Maclin? Could they be? Possibly. But as of right now, that statement is as silly as the comparison of McNabb and Campbell
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
McNabb was horrible his last 2 games last season
I don’t know if he brings everything to the table that he once did.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I said
top to bottom. Moss, Thomas, Cooley, and Davis are better, in my opinion, than Jackson, Macklin, and Celek. Do you remember how many times Moss was overthrown running up the sideline last year, the exact routes that Jackson broke out with? Now you have a guy who can complete that pass, which put Moss back in the conversation with the best WR’s in the league. I’d also take Thomas over Macklin, and EASILY take Cooley OR Davis over Celek, let alone both of them.
Cooley and Davis over Celek?
agreed.
Thomas over Maclin? Really? Has he shown enough for that?
I’ll wait and see on Moss.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
I don't know
Jackson is much better than Moss
Maclin and Thomas are a wash
Avant is much better than whoever we had at #3 last year
Cooley is better than Celek although Celek had a great year.
Advantage is definitely to Philly.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
what happened to Davis?
Besides, you have to factor in everything. Which means you have to take into account who’s throwing the ball to these receivers, AND who’s calling the plays. I think most of us were in agreement last year that our receiving corps was under-utilized. That won’t be the case anymore.
A 2nd TE is only so valuable.
When is the last time a 2nd TE had a great season?
Davis looks great, but having 2 TEs is a waste.
Which means you have to take into account who’s throwing the ball to these receivers, AND who’s calling the plays.
but that’s not what we were discussing. we were comparing talent.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
He is better than Moss
at this point in his career. Not “much,” but better.
Here’s hoping Santana still has something left in the tank, though. He just hasn’t had much since the midpoint of 08, like much of the rest of our offense.
Maybe
It’s just been a long time since we’ve seen Moss be Moss. A lot of that has to do with the fact that long routes were rarely called under Zorn. A lot of that has to do with the fact that long routes need more time to develop than our o-line could ever provide. So it is very possible he’s still got a lot left. I hope so. But from what I’ve seen in the past season and a half, Jackson has been playing much better.
Play calling definitely hurt Moss last year
Moss is the kind of player who’s at his best when he can throw in double moves to shake defenders out of their cleats. When he doesn’t have time to execute those guys jump on his single-move routes.
Jackson is a little overrated in my opinion. The guys is definitely scary fast, but he’s extremely inconsistent (catches barely half the balls thrown at him). I think McNabb made him look good, and he’s regress under Kolb unless some of Philly’s 11 other picks are able to keep defenses from keying on him.
Serious business.
I don't know that Jackson will be that hurt by the loss of McNabb
He’s only had limited time with Kolb, but in Kolb’s two starts last year, Jackson was targeted 4 times. In the New Orleans game he was targeted once and got a 71 yard touchdown out of it. In the Kansas City game, he was targeted three times. He had an incomplete pass, a 10-yard catch, and a 43-yard catch. Limited numbers to go off of, but clearly the two were finding chemistry while McNabb was hurting.
I think Jackson is legitimately good and people are overstating McNabb’s impact on his career. His catching 56% of balls thrown to him is not just indicative of his inability. That stat doesn’t say that he drops 44% of balls. There are over-throws, under-throws, drops, mis-run routes, mis-thrown routes, passes defended, and interceptions to be factored in if we want the full scope to judge upon. Anyway, 56% (which is what KevinE quoted in his stats breakdown article that just got posted, so I’m not going to track down links) is only, what, 4=5% lower than McNabb’s overall completion percentage? A high number of passes to Jackson are deep balls, so a drop in percentage should be expected there.
Jackson was the most dynamic player in the division last year if not the league
There isn’t a single person on the Redskins I wouldn’t trade for him straight up. Not sure why people are shitting on him other than they think it makes McNabb look like Montana.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 6, 2010 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions
At first that seemed like hyperbole
But I guess I agree… He probably is the most dynamic (not the best overall of course) player in the division… To the guy below, Miles Austin is really good too, but compare the two on punt returns and you’ll see that extra dimension Jackson adds.
Philly's line was much better than ours
and Jackson/Avant/Maclin are far from no name WRs, and MUCH better than any corps we’ve had since the Posse.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Thomas MAY end up better
he only had 25 catches last year. Macklin easily eclipsed that pulling in 55 catches his rookie year. We have better TE’s. They had a better WR group and way better RB’s(catching and rushing).
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 6:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes
Macklin easily eclipsed that pulling in 55 catches his rookie year.
with McNabb throwing it to him. With McNabb actually pulling the trigger on the long ball AND connecting. We get excited when Campbell connects on one long ball a MONTH. McNabb does it once a quarter.
you're focusing too much
on LAST year. I’m talking about over his career. You see, that’s the joy of landing a guy with a proven body of work – you KNOW what he can do. You don’t have to spend all your time HOPING he can do something.
Yes, Jackson and Macklin (Avant, C’mon?) are good receivers. But what about Hank Baskett, Freddie Mitchell, Billy McMullen, Reggie Brown, Todd Pinkston, etc, etc, etc.
Well last year is the best indicator of his future play
It’s much like LJ, CP or WP. Those guys were good but it would be kinda silly to project them to go back to their previous form. What McNabb did last year is way more telling than what he did 4 years ago. You can’t just decide a 33 yo player is gonna play at the same level he did when he was in his his prime. That is usually the suckers bet.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions
oh boy
you’re bringing those numbers arguments over here from BulletsForever. I don’t believe numbers win games. I believe players do. How many of Campbell’s completions have come in garbage time? By contrast, how many of McNabb’s have come at the BEGINNING of games that he pulled out in the end?
And, again, this article compares Philly’s receivers to ours WITHOUT taking into account the fact that they had McNabb throwing to them. Would Desean Jackson be as dangerous with Campbell throwing to him and Zorn calling the plays? I don’t think so. Would Macklin have caught all those long balls in our offense from last year? Hell no.
McNabb beat up on bad teams last year
and came up small against good teams(completely shit the bed against Dallas last 2 games of the year). He beat up on bad defenses last year NYG, Den(at the end of the year there D was horrid), TB. Struggled against Dallas, SF and us. I don’t think the garbage time element has any play there. You could flip around your argument and point out that McNabb put up numbers because of who we was throwing to. Numbers matter even if they don’t support your arguments.
I’m not saying McNabb isn’t better I just don’t think he will be as big of an improvement as you seem to think he will. I def. don’t see him being a big enough improvement to make up for the other holes on our team. His last couple years stacks up to Brunell’s last years in Jacksonville and this time he won’t have a stud O-line and RB in his prime like Brunell had.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions
+1
I’ve said this before: we could put Drew Brees in this offense and that wouldn’t solve our woes. We’d get better, but we still wouldn’t be good enough. We’re supposed to be building an offense. Whether we do so with Jason Campbell or someone else doesn’t matter to me, but without draft picks we don’t have the resources to build an offense. Maybe we can get as many as 5 years out of McNabb. But to do that we need to protect him and put a good supporting cast around him. We simply cannot do that fast enough with the limited resources that we have.
Good funk or bad funk?
His o-line is pretty damn good.
100000% rec
I’ve said this before: we could put Drew Brees in this offense and that wouldn’t solve our woes. We’d get better, but we still wouldn’t be good enough. We’re supposed to be building an offense. Whether we do so with Jason Campbell or someone else doesn’t matter to me, but without draft picks we don’t have the resources to build an offense. Maybe we can get as many as 5 years out of McNabb. But to do that we need to protect him and put a good supporting cast around him. We simply cannot do that fast enough with the limited resources that we have.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
besides Football Outsiders takes garbage time stuff into account
They are very nuanced in their evaluations. It’s not like the asshole’s who kept on trumpeting our #4 overall defense when a more sophisticated look at the numbers placed them in the middle of the pack.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 7:11 PM EDT up reply actions
More sophisticated...
Meaning actually acknowledging that opposing teams were scoring tons of points and never turning the ball over? Really technical stuff that takes a while to figure out lol
again
are we REALLY comparing Campbell to McNabb?
McNabb beat up on bad teams last year
Yeah, the same bad teams that Campbell lost to. McNabb has shown over the course of his career that he is a winner, plain and simple. And his age doesn’t bother me as much. Of the four QB’s in the championship games last year, only one was under 30. I think we can easily get 3 solid years out of McNabb. Again, my opinion. But if that happens, then this trade is a win. That’s all I’ve been saying all along.
I am not comparing McNabb to Campbell
You made a point that Campbell’s numbers were all in garbage time and I pointed out what every Philly fan knows. Against good teams McNabb came up small and against bad D’s he lit them up. When they both played good D’s like Dallas both QB’s sucked and their teams lost.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Didn't mean
ALL his numbers. I’m just saying that JC had plenty of games where he was driving down the field at the end of the game, but didn’t finish. McNabb on the other hand, throughout his career, has had bad games but pulled out the win in the end.
this is exasperating
I feel like I’m getting further and further away from where I want to be. Like I’ve said before, I am not totally onboard with this deal. What I am is convinced that Donovan McNabb is now our starting QB, and therefor I have made peace with it. If you want to compare this to Brunell, go ahead. But write it down so that you remember it midway through the year. Brunell’s arm was cooked BEFORE he came here. McNabb still has plenty of strength left in his.
I'm not trying to piss you off CJ
I’m skeptical. I am allowed to be skeptical and I gave some good reasons. I’m just not ready to proclaim it a huge upgrade.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions
read me wrong
not pissing me off. Believe me, that’s hard to do. In fact, I completely understand where you’re coming from. I am just leaning a little more to the other side of the fence than you.
Thats cool
I get your points. Look I will root for McNabb this season. I am certainly not discounting him playing really well for us this year or really improving the team. I’m just skeptical thats all and like looking at numbers sometimes.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 7:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Shanny knows how to build a line......
Thats why his RB’s always put up good numbers. He has a plan to address this line. Seeing as we are taking enemy combatants (ie McEagle) Any thoughts about former Cowgirl Flozel Adams?
If the Cowboys cut him
then they probably don’t think he’s even worth a trade. That doesn’t bode well for what he’s got left in the tank. If we’re going to sign a stopgap tackle, we could just as easily go back to Levi Jones.
The issue really is, though, that there is a special skill set to being a Shanahan lineman. I don’t know the details of it really, but I do know it entails athleticism. I don’t think Adams has much left in that regard.
why not
sign both? Jones was cut by the Bengals, and he did OK for us. I say sign both of them, PLUS Shawn Andrews. No matter what we do in the draft, we will still need bodies along the O-line. I’d rather have guys with starting experience than undrafted rookies and journeymen.
Meh
I’m not into having a bunch of old guys making up our o-line depth again. Can’t we find young guys to put in there? Trade for Gaither, if it’s possible I guess… But I would really rather have our backups be in the 24-29 range than the 28-34 range. (and yes, I know those overlap)
1st of all
the best O-linemen are usually 28-34. Second of all, yeah, I’d love to trade for Gaither. But that may not be possible, and it may never have been. All we ever knew were rumors. What I’m saying is that, right now, I want the best guys available, REGARDLESS of age. Then, as we acquire new, young talent, cast off the older guys. Are you telling me you’d rather have Will Montgomery, Edwin Williams, and Scott Burley than Flozell Adams, Levi Jones, and Shawn Andrews?
I agree with the bringing as many guys in as possible
McNabb can’t take a beating anymore and we are currently extending his contract. We can’t afford to trade for him and then let him suffer a serious injury.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions
I just don't know what any of those guys have left
And as backups? I’d rather have younger guys who can develop into starters. Not older guys who might be able to still start. Levi Jones showed he’s still got something left. Shawn Andrews… Does he still want to play football? And Flozell Adams? I’m pretty sure he’s not athletic enough to be a Shanahan-style zone blocker.
Let me correct myself
Young guys who maybe could possibly develop into starters. I know the Redskins style of o-line development has been to pick up guys who should only be backups and make them starters or to pick up guys who should no longer be starters and make them starters. I don’t want to encourage that kind of mindset by suggesting that you pick up a 26 year-old journeyman and expect him to be anything more than a capable backup. You can hope, but you shouldn’t expect anything else.
sure
but they are still restricted by who is available. This reminds me of last year when I would argue with people about the Haynesworth acquisition, and why we got him and not some stud O-linemen. The reason? There were no stud O-linemen last year, and there are none available this year.
So, back to my point. Would I much rather go get a bunch of young linemen with starting potential? Of course. But those guys don’t grow on trees, and teams don’t just let them go. So, in the meantime, I would much rather have Flozell Adams than Will Montgomery or Scott Burley.
perhaps McNabb is just a decoy?
bring in a somewhat big name QB to run the offense, and then hand it off to our RBs ?? after all, we know how much Shanny loves the zone blocking running game
Rock the Red! Rock the White! Rock the Blue! Rock the Pens!
by RedskinFan4Life on Apr 6, 2010 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions
I hope not
Our running backs don’t exactly strike fear in the hearts of DCs. Maybe 5 years ago they do, but not today.
we HOPE he has a plan
He has a plan to address this line.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Statistically, yes
but does the article take into account all the garbage TDs and yards Campbell put up in losing efforts to make losses look respectable. I’m sorry but Campbell’s ineffectiveness goes well beyond the stats. Wins/Losses, that’s the stat I am interested in.
awesome we have Rex Grossman who has a great win/loss record
Guess we know who’s starting this year huh?
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I have researched this at nfl.com
there is not as much garbage time in JC’s stats as you think AND his #s are actually BETTER when the game is close
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Apr 6, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
McNabb our/Shannahan's versison of Elway?
Great QB who couldn’t win the big one. One year younger than Elway was, and our D is better than the Bronco’s was. We probably wont win 2 Superbowls, but one is just fine. We just need an O-line
Orakpo!!! Russel Okung next year!
+1
As much as I was dismayed when I heard it, especially dropping the 2nd rounder, this does make us better at QB. What’s that sound? Sigh, its the bandwagon coming back around, and I’m sure I’m gonna be on it.
Again.
Foaming at the mouth from all the excitement of a "Kindergarten Ninja"-less Front Office!
the bandwagon starts for a 4-12 team who might go 6-10?
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
“We just need an O-line”
Much easier said than done, especially since we need three o-linemen this year, and we don’t know how soon we’ll need to replace Rabach.
I would have liked to replace Rabach last year...
He is serviceable I guess, but the Centers coming out in the draft each year are getting better and better (the top centers.) I would love to get our hands on a stud center in the 2nd round….uhhhhh….next year.
by Ken Meringolo on Apr 5, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
It'll never happen
We might draft a LT in the first or second round, but we’ll never draft any other offensive lineman that high. The Redskins draft sexy positions, and although there’s just nothing sexy about the line, recent years have at least made a LT draft attractive. But center? Gross. Why don’t you just wear baggy sweat pants to the country club and drink lite beer? Plebeian.
Hardest thing in football is building a great offensive line.
by donniethelion on Apr 5, 2010 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Elway's teams were better
This comparison is ridiculous. Elway had decent teams even with Wade Phillips as coach. This team is a dumpster fire and hasn’t improved much since Shanallen took over, except add a bunch of washed up running backs. McNabb is going to end up in ICU if the line isn’t addressed, and one guy isn’t going to make the line strong. There are too many weak links.
by killianskid34 on Apr 5, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Also Elway was way better in his prime
If they were a bell curve where Elway was is much higher than where McNabb is right now. Plus Elway kinda took a back seat on those teams. The rest of our team isn’t carrying us anywhere.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
The term "Wade Phillips"
is a profanity. The only Broncos coach with an under .500 record since Red Miller first led us to the Super Bowl. Thus, he’s scum and surely Skins fans feel no different with that tool being in Dallas.
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Apr 5, 2010 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
I Thought I
was the only one to mentally compare McNabb to Elway. They have many similarities and it would be nice for you Skins fans if Shanahan is the one who finally utilizes Mac5’s immense talents and parlays them into a championship or two just as he did with my Broncos.
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Apr 5, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
And by “immense talents”, you mean McNabb’s propensity for taking a simple short pass play and turning it into sandlot football? There’s a reason McNabb’s lost his job to a dude who’s only started two games.
by donniethelion on Apr 5, 2010 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions
There are lots of reasons. Talent isn't primary
There’s a reason McNabb’s lost his job to a dude who’s only started two games.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I just hope Kolb struggles out of the gate
and McNabb does well so Philly fans end up eating Kolb alive. The only thing we can hope for. I just know that second rounder is gonna take it to us for years.
Wouldn't it be great if Kolb struggles AND
that 2nd rounder busts? And McNabb leads us to season sweeps of Philly? Just dreaming a bit here…. But in a perfect world
A perfect world
would include Sean Taylor resurrecting and annihilating DeSean Jackson every time he tries to catch a pass against the Skins.
Foaming at the mouth from all the excitement of a "Kindergarten Ninja"-less Front Office!
2nd round draft pick
Totally agree. Anything approaching McNabb’s caliber would be a slam dunk, and this means we WERE going to use it on a QB. Also, that we aren’t going to trade up for Bradford…thank GOD
We're from the city with the highest murder rate in the country. Why WOULDN'T they call us the Bullets?
by Bullet Nation in Exile on Apr 5, 2010 1:24 PM EDT reply actions
respectfully disagree
I think we still will get a QB with that 4th pick……McNabb is good, but he’s nearing the end. I see him leading the team the next two/three years and grooming the next QB we pick (be it Bradford or someone else)
The other scenario I see happening is that the 4th pick is traded for multiple later picks…..
Rock the Red! Rock the White! Rock the Blue! Rock the Pens!
by RedskinFan4Life on Apr 5, 2010 1:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I think that the #4 pick
has to be a left tackle now. We don’t have a 2nd rounder to get our LT with anymore, and we still don’t even have a body at the position. Then again, we still have to deal Campbell, so its all speculation still.
point taken
LT definitely is a need as well……i think the Skins will pick one up - whether its with the 4th pick or something later, I think we’ll get one anyway. there’s plenty of LTs out there. I’m not too worried
Rock the Red! Rock the White! Rock the Blue! Rock the Pens!
by RedskinFan4Life on Apr 5, 2010 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Trade, Trade, TRADE!!!!!!!
Move slowly down the totem pole collecting 2nd, 3rd and 4th’s and eventually pick up Bruce Campbell at around 20. THEN it is a good pick up.
Bruce Campbell
is a bit raw to be the immediate solution at LT, in my opinion. I would take Charles Brown over Campbell at any position.
Easier said then done
And we traded down in the draft two years ago… That didn’t turn out well.
that was then….
now we’ve got Bruce Allen — someone who knows what he’s doing
Rock the Red! Rock the White! Rock the Blue! Rock the Pens!
by RedskinFan4Life on Apr 6, 2010 12:39 AM EDT up reply actions
There is no way that we traded away or second rounder
just to take ANOTHER QB prospect, and have both of them murdered on the field by opposing defenses. We absolutely need a solution at LT and singe the off season has not (so far_ provided a solution, it really makes the most sense to grab a long term, franchise LT at #4. I don’t think we brought in McNabb to get sacked and abused so that he could get injured and Rex could start….
by RobtheRedskin on Apr 5, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
I think we will probably wait for next year before drafting a QB
Probably in the first 2 rounds.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said before
this is a win for us if McNabb starts for 3 years. You want a starter with your 2nd round pick, so getting a 6 time Pro bowler who knows every defense in the league, is familiar with the west coast offense, and hates our division rivals as much as we do, with that pick is a coup. No, McNabb doesn’t come here with the athleticism that he had in his 20’s, but he does come with the experience of 4 NFC championship games, one Superbowl, and years of driving a knife in the hearts of fans and opposing teams with last minute drives. We no longer have to wear that lemon sucking face at he end of close games, because we know our QB can pull it off.
OK, so it sounds as if I’ve downed A TON of Kool Aid since my initial reaction yesterday, right? Well, here’s the other side. Now we HAVE to sign a 33 year old castoff QB to an extension of at least 3 more years. And I mean HAVE TO. We can not let him hit free agency next year, and we can not lose him after one year. If by some slim chance that happens, then I will immediately disembark from the ShanAllen Express.
Man... No Kool-Aid for me
A decade of Dan Snyder has made me diabetic. I’ll take the bitter taste of black coffee, thank you.
don't worry dude
you’ll be back to the red sugar water in no time.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Prove me wrong.
I’ll have y’all know I moved to New Orleans a couple of years ago. Still love my Skins, but do you think I don’t love my Saints, too? I don’t have to support the dumb moves that the Redskins make anymore. There’s a team right down the street that makes actual smart football moves. Novel concept, and I’m still not used to it, but I’m liking it.
don't know what to say to that one
I live smack dab in the middle of ‘Skins country, and even if I moved I don’t think I could let go.
Sort of like meth…
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Clearly I'm still focusing on the Skins over the Saints
I don’t go to Saints sites even a quarter as much as Skins sites.
But it was really cool to go to a Super Bowl victory parade.
MMMMMMMMMMM
Meth……… good times
Foaming at the mouth from all the excitement of a "Kindergarten Ninja"-less Front Office!
Living in Pats country
I relate to K’s thought but I have to say I don’t support the dumb moves but no other team will ever take my skins place. I watch the pats with mild interest but I laugh at their misfortune as I still haven’t gotten over that rediculous ass-whooping they gave us a couple of years ago.
3,000 miles away but still can't bring myself to root for another team
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Well good for y'all
Me personally? I root for the Saints in addition to the Skins.
And here comes the blasphemy…
I rooted for the Saints in the game last season. I mean, I don’t think I would have if it wasn’t for the Saints holding a perfect record and the Skins needing losses to move up in the draft. There was no point in the Redskins winning any more. We needed that #4 pick more than we needed that Week 13 win. And it would have been very bittersweet to see the Skins win.
I don’t know if people outside of Louisiana were much aware of this video, but it was hilarious in the aftermath of that game.
hahaha classic!!
Rock the Red! Rock the White! Rock the Blue! Rock the Pens!
by RedskinFan4Life on Apr 6, 2010 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions
with you there
I left the DC area when I was 18 ad lived 7 years in SF (along with about 6 in Houston and 2 in Tampa) and never even thought about being a fan of another team.
Oh yeah the Saints
You really are using a team that has been historcially awful through and through with the exception of a few marginal years with the Dome Patrol as a franchise that makes smart moves?
Brees and Sean Peyton were great decisions I will grant you but come on the Saints floundered in the wind with no clue for so long.
Only been here for two years
And it’s been longer since that since the Saints were making bad moves. They do almost nothing but make smart decisions these days.
Category list for Clavin's first round on Jeopardy
CIVIL SERVANTS, STAMPS FROM AROUND THE WORLD, MOTHERS AND SONS, BEER, BAR TRIVIA, and CELIBACY.
Haha. Great reference, Kenny.
It smells like a Danny move....
Just began wondering when he would begin swallowing up players when I saw the Fast Willie Parker signing, and then this – If we hadn’t suffered through the Deion Sanders/Bruce Smith/Archuleta/Brunell/George (stop me anytime) kookiness, this move would be a lot sweeter. Fact is, I won’t know how I feel about this until about week 10 or 11. I have always grudgingly liked McNabb, but I just don’t know these days….better next year than with JC? Probably. Better in 3 or 4 years? Not likely….build a damn team, stop with the plug and sorta play players!!!
by gopens44 on Apr 5, 2010 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Go PENS???? ON AN DC SITE???????
Go root for the Steelers.
Give the guy a break
team loyalty is a fine thing. I’ve always been a DC-area Marylander but I don’t think it makes me any less of a Skins fan because I’ll be deep in the cold cold ground before I root for the Natinals instead of the O’s.
Don't even ask.........
My sports allegiances are slightly schizophrenic. Grew up in Illinois, became a Pens fan when they were offering money back to season ticket holders back in 1983. I’ve always been a Skins fan because my Grandpa was. Geographically speaking, I’ve always been a Crads / Illini fan. Hope that sets your mind at eases (BTW – I have always given Ovie his props – dude is just the complete package…)
In defense of Brunell
he is the last Redskin quarterback to win a playoff game. I personally never had a huge problem with that move because as I understood it he was a stand-in while Jason Campbell was developed. I don’t think there was ever a belief that Brunell was anything other than a place holder until we got the QB of the future. There was a rational plan in place there. Can’t say I disagree about some of the other names you mentioned.
But Brunell was probably overpaid...
Being a Redskins’ free agent signee and all.
Oh OK
Then we probably over-paid for him. I don’t know. I can’t keep track of every ill-advised move that Danny makes. That’s what his accountants are for.
We did. We gave up a 3rd rounder for a player that everyone knew was going to be cut
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
?
a player that everyone knew was going to be cut
Took a long time for the team to get around to making that cut, huh?
He is saying Brunell would have been cut by the Jags
Just like Bulger just got cut for the Rams.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 5:14 PM EDT up reply actions
oooooohhhh...
Yeah, that was a wasted trade.
It was a sign of things to come.
Both Danny and Gibbs refused to drive hard, or even decent bargains.
They just overpay the minute the market opens b/c they have to have their man.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
That's what all of Snyder's coaches do
It’s easy for them. He just keeps reminding them, “Hey, I’ve got all this money, why don’t you spend some of it on new players? I heard you saying the other day that so-and-so is a good player. You should sign him to our team. You’ll figure out how to use him. Go ahead. I promise I won’t blame you if it doesn’t work out.”
Brunell
gets a bad rap, but he had some nice moments here (took us to playoffs, sweep of Dallas in ’05, NFL record for consecutive completions, that Jaguars OT victory TD to Moss). I think he was just too beat up for a whole 16 game stretch after the first season with us, and probably had more serious injuries than he let on.
I remember in 2005 I had a Cowboys fan for a roommate, and watching the Skins losing 13-0 while that asshole taunted me made me want to break furniture. That comeback win, on the day the Cowboys inducted Irvin, Smith and Aikman into their ring of honor, was one of the great moments in a decade where they were few and far between.
Who gives him a bad rap?
I know that all I was saying was that we probably over-paid for him. That’s criticism of management, though. Anyone who acts like he wasn’t a good pickup is crazy.
Danny moves
With 20-20 hindsight, some of those didn’t work out too well, but only Jeff George was a clear mistake, mainly because Dan overruled Norv to replace Brad Johnson. Deion was an exciting player at the end of his career, who they thought could help out for a year. Turns out he didn’t have much left. Bruce Smith did a pretty good job when he was here, as did Brunell. Archuleta was a good player who they misused. He was not fast enough to handle the job they assigned him – Gregg Williams should never have let them trade for him (what the heck was he thinking?). But all these were individual moves that didn’t work out as planned, not a failure of concept or theory. The Skins and all the other teams will keep doing similar things and, unfortunately, keep making some mistakes. By the way – going with and sticking with Jason Campbell was one of those mistakes. Hiring Jim Zorn as head coach was the biggest, most unforgiveable, mistake that Snyder made.
10 years. 24th best record.
At some point we can start to anticipate that Danny’s moves won’t work out.
I started doing so when Cerrato was given a new title and he promptly traded for Jason Taylor.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
McNabb, if anything
Will bring a been there, done that approach that Campbell just can’t measure up to.
vomiting on the field during the super bowl?
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
5 NFC Championship games
So yeah. He hasn’t won the Super bowl yet but if I understand correctly, only one team every year does.
He has been to 5 NFC Championship games in his career (11 seasons). To put that into perspective, the Redskin’s have made the playoffs 3 times since 1993.
hallowed company indeed.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
FYI
McNabb never puked during the Super Bowl.
…but enjoy the Eagle’s hand-me-downs. Your offense just got much better, there’s no denying it. In fact, they could easily finish ahead of the Eagles next season, but your team won’t go anywhere until you fix that putrid o-line and get rid of all the bad contracts to aging veterans. I’ve always been a McNabb supporter/fan, but this wasn’t the answer for the Skins.
Been there done that?
If that’s all you want, Trent Dilfer’s got that.
Eventually, a player’s experience begins to outweigh his talent. That’s what’s been happening with McNabb over the past year or so. He can say, “Hey, I’ve been here before and this is what you need to do to win.” But will he still be able to do it? Some of it, yes; some of it, no.
Look, reading your posts
You’ve got it all figured out. I am not personally saying McNabb of today is McNabb of yesterday. If we had gotten McNabb of yesterday itwould have been 2 first rounders and possibly additional.
I do think he comes in here with enough of a positive reputation and resume, to demand respect in the huddle, and also knows how to lead an offense. You’re really losing credibility comparing McNabb to Dilfer. Dilfer won a Super Bowl but was never an accomplished QB in the same vein as McNabb.
I think having a guy like McNabb in the huddle for even 2-3 years showing our guys what needs to be done to be successful, will pay dividends well after McNabb is gone.
I'm tired of people trying to sell me on his intangibles
We all believed in the intangibles of Joe Gibbs, but how much of a lasting effect did he have on the players, coaches, and management? After 8 games, we were right back to playing awful and being non-functional… Are you saying that having McNabb around will be better for us in the long run then drafting a guy who could start for 10 years (at whatever position they drafted) would have been? How am I losing credibility by mentioning Dilfer? I was merely pointing out that someone having “been there, done that” means pretty much nothing. When it comes down to it, you need your players to perform. If you want someone to show the young guys how they’re supposed to act, hire him as a coach. Otherwise, don’t keep bringing up McNabb’s experience as something that is going to make up for his declining ability. Can he still play? Yes. But he doesn’t have the offense around him necessary for him to be successful. So he’s a wasted player. I don’t want to pay someone 8-10 million a year to provide an example to young guys. That’s the kind of money you pay a guy to win.
And finally, screw you for your sarcastic tone. I don’t “have it all figured out.” I’m just explaining why I feel the way I feel. You come off just as pompous as anyone else, if not more. So don’t come at me about my tone.
Isn't this the same McNabb
that lost the locker room to TO years ago. Had a reputation for choking in big games? The Philly locker room was certainly not crying over his loss and there have been reports for months that players for the Eagles think Kolb gives them a better chance to succeed this year and in the future. I think we are slightly inflating those intangibles.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
trade, JC
Ken – good article. Your critique of Campbell was devastating – one of several that showed why we needed a better QB. Poor Jim Zorn went with JC and it cost him his job. Shanahan is way too smart to stake his future on a barely adequate QB – and managed to get a good one, cheap – basically using the #37 for a QB. So I don’t understand the angst about McNabb. He was an Eagle – so what? Most veterans came from some other team. Donovan will indeed help the receivers and even the O-line a little. But I have no doubt that Shanahan will beef up the O-line. Okung at #4, maybe several others from picks from trades, maybe Gaither or Adams. I was impatient earlier but am now just sitting back watching and hoping.
Personally, I hope I win the lottery.
maybe several others from picks from trades, maybe Gaither or Adams.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Our first preseason game must be this weekend
Personally, I hope I win the lottery.
Way too early to act as though our offensive line is set in stone, and that the current personnel aren’t capable of being adequate or thriving in a new blocking scheme.
Simply my opinion and prediction
Hicks/Heyer/Mike Williams/etc will still suck.
Rabach & Dock will be mediocre, and hopefully our new LT is a super stud.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
O-line - opinion
I think you’re wrong on Big Mike – he’s solid at guard. Hicks, too. Heyer – I totally agree – if he’s the RT, we won’t win 8 games. A line of Okung, Dockery, Rabach, Williams and hopefully a rookie (or Hicks or Jones) should be adequate.
Hicks is a 31 year old back up
If he’s starting, that’s another weak spot.
MW would be ok if he was our only weak starter, but then up the middle we’ve got mediocrity and/or inadequacy.
Average linemen are only work if they’re surround by talented players at the other positions, and right now only truly talented lineman we have is a rookie who we’re all assuming we’re going to draft, but isn’t even on the team yet.
We have multiple holes on the OL, and now only have one really valuable asset to use to fill.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
+100
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Apr 5, 2010 3:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Rogers is that asset
Whether it be as part of a trade to the Ravens for Gaither or for a pick, I feel like Rogers has played his last game for out team. Also, Campbell can pick up a pick as well. I think we’ll be ok on the o-line if either of these happen and we get okung plus a second or third round RT.
donnio did you even watch any games last year?
big mike was fuckin terrible. heyer was even more fuckin terrible. I don’t know much about hicks, but hopefully he can be decent at RG, but as of right now we have no starting tackle on our roster. Hopefully we draft Okung so the left side of our line is solidified and then we will have to find a way to make the right side of our line not fuckin terrible or else we will have traded two draft picks just to see a former eagle get pounded for 16 games.
Semin = King of Dangle Sauce
by Area 51 Forever on Apr 5, 2010 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
First preseason game
Right – a lot can happen. And better happen. The line was settling down last year with Jones at LT and Big Mike at RG. But I think we want better than Levi at LT (who maybe could move to RT) and almost certainly need a RT, unless maybe Hicks really steps up there. Basically, it seems to me that center and both guards are OK, but we need two tackles. Okung would be one.
Stop saying its worth a few wins
That only brings us to 7 wins! Who’s in charge of math around here. Everyone keeps saying he’s worth a few wins. We only had 4 last year. We need a lot more in the long run. If we are going to build the team up, why go with some who is 31 and on his way down the last few years?
Anyone who's happy about getting a couple more wins is ignoring the past 20 years
or just doesn’t care.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Hmmmm...I get your point, but it doesn't make it any less true that McNabb is worth wins
also, McNabb is 33…which probably makes you like him less (if that is possible.)
Let’s also see what we get in return for JC…if the net change in our draft pick situation is JUST the 2nd rounder this year (meaning we somehow get at least the 3rd/4th rounder back in the JC trade) I am thinking the McNabb deal starts to get sweeter.
By saying McNabb is worth a few wins himself does not mean we go from 4-12 to 7-9…it means that he is capable of winning a few games on his back. That does not take into account his ability to put other guys in position to win games for us.
by Ken Meringolo on Apr 5, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions
McNabb is 33
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Apr 5, 2010 3:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Confidence in the huddle
I’m looking forward to seeing that.
Repost this article
At the end of the 2010 season please. Then let’s check the stats of McNabb and the win loss record of the Redskins. My guess is that they won’t be all that different from Campbells and the Redskins of 2009. But only the numbers will prove my point.
Will do...
I don’t make any bold predictions in this post so can’t really burn me at the stake on it, but I will be interested in the sentiment towards D-mac
by Ken Meringolo on Apr 5, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
This is actually a way to test my thesis
That even a pro-bowl caliber QB couldn’t perform well with the talent we have protecting him. Remember, Okung is just replacing a pro-bowl tackle in Chris Samuels. Not really an upgrade, but a necessity. I’ll be happy to admit my thesis was wrong if that’s the case.
Don't sleep on the keys to victory either
you have to do your part after all.
by Ken Meringolo on Apr 5, 2010 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions
I seriously just don't get this at all.
Even if McNabb stays healthy and has a good year production-wise, this team ain’t gonna win shit. A polished turd is still a turd.
no lead is safe.
Disgusted
anyone else just get an e-mail advertising a McNabb jersey? Last fall I was wandering around the mall and every sports type store I went into was overloaded in Jason Taylor jerseys. I wonder how many McNabb ones will be clogging storage rooms for years to come.
haha
I caught that on the redskins website.
I for one, will be first in line for my Okung jersey.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
gonna stick with my Art Monk and Riggo jerseys
maybe add a D. Green this year.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions
can't go wrong with the throwbacks
just my personal way of saying it’s ok to draft lineman. People will buy there jerseys too :)
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
I have my custom made jersey with my name on it
that happens to the the last name of an old player and his number who happens to be in the ring of fame, so I can still have a throwback. I also have a D. Green jersey. That’s it for the jersey buying for me, though.
You definitely can’t go wrong with the throwbacks, though, or even a Sean Taylor jersey. The rest? Meh…
by killianskid34 on Apr 5, 2010 6:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Ridiculously over-paid?
That’s just a hunch though. Don’t know why I think Snyder would pay anyone too much money, though.
Can't wait to see how much we pay him when he's 37
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I mean we pretty much have to pay him whatever he wants
I know alot of people see us getting 3-4 good years out of him. I see it more as 2 years but we’ll pay him for 5-6 years.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Because we can't trade 2 draft picks for a guy and then let him move on after a year
He is in the drivers seat. Unless we overpay to keep him he can go somewhere else. It’s not like we have a championship contending team to sell him on.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions
At the same time
He’s going to get beaten up this year. If he goes on the open market next year, he has to know that he will be worth less at that point in time. He may as well get the money he can now before we get him put in a wheelchair.
Jake Delhomme just got 7M
and Minny will still need a QB next year. I don’t think he will sign an extension this year unless it is on terms very favorable to him. We shall see though.
by BayAreaBullet on Apr 5, 2010 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions
also b/c Danny always pays guys whatever they want
especially stars, especially for contract extensions.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
We need to start trading guys like
Rogers and Campbell for mid round draft picks ASAP. Or for proven O linemen like Gaither.
Semin = King of Dangle Sauce
if we trade Rogers
you really feel good about Buchanan starting for 2 years?
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Apr 5, 2010 5:56 PM EDT up reply actions
What can we give for Gaither?
Unless we trade away a bunch of picks in next year’s draft I don’t see how we can get him, and I don’t think the Ravens want any players on our roster.
Rogers might fetch a 5th rounder, and Campbell can’t go much higher than that. Their trade values are shot.
by killianskid34 on Apr 5, 2010 6:17 PM EDT up reply actions
I wanna make this the HHLOD
it doesn’t count if I throw up a little while laughing though
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Makes my eyes bleed and my brain fry.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
This Broncos Fan
for one believes Shanahan knows what he’s doing. His message wasn’t being heard in Denver anymore but he’s had a year off to recharge his batteries and the Skins will be better for it. McNabb’s best years, for all we know, might still be ahead of him. With that said, enjoy the ride Skins fans. Hopefully, my Broncos continue to improve in the AFC. It would be pretty sweet to see the Broncos face off against Shanny’s Skins in the Super Bowl but we’ll see what happens. I’m listening to Philadelphia radio online today and it’s interesting to see Howard Eskin and his brethren trying to spin how this is a good thing. It’s only good for the Skins on this day. The G-Men and Cowgirls are pretty pissed at you guys right now, I’m sure but hey screw em (at least the Cowgirls anyway).
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Apr 5, 2010 6:10 PM EDT reply actions
What has he done lately?
All I remember is the epic collapse by his Broncos at the end of the 08 season and lose to a team that has the Norvitis. I just don’t see how he’s going to do any better here. I haven’t been sold on many moves this organization has made in the last 10 years, except hiring Joe Gibbs and firing Vinny. everything else has been a big disappointment.
by killianskid34 on Apr 5, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh
the pain of 2008! I can see why Skins fans have cynicism as it’s been a long time since the Skins’ last championship but you have to believe Shanny’s an upgrade over clueless Zorn. Much still remains to happen but it should be intriguing to watch it unfold. I only know that traditional powers like Denver and Washington rising to prominence once again are a surefire way to improve an already excellent NFL!
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Apr 5, 2010 6:18 PM EDT up reply actions
been quite a few years sjnce the Broncos have won one also
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Apr 6, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
Haha, telling us he's an upgrade over Zorn won't win over too many people
There are literally hundreds of people who are more qualified to be an NFL head coach than Jim Zorn. Maybe thousands. In terms of being ready for the job, I’d put Zorn on about the same level as a very successful high-school head coach at a school with a good football program.
Serious business.
Yes
the Broncos have been mediocre for far too long. I want to return to greatness!
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Apr 6, 2010 7:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Also
suppose Brett Favre DOESN’T come back. The Vikes will wish they’d have gone after McNabb. Nice foreplay guys!
Brad James
by the new Bradfather on Apr 5, 2010 6:11 PM EDT reply actions
OK Gaither might in fact be available
Nothing’s been said publicly by the team, but that doesn’t mean he’s not on the table.
The issue is, how would we actually get him? If they wanted a second rounder for him, we’ve given that up. And trade value of draft picks diminishes by one full round each year. I’ll be damned if we give up a 2011 first rounder for Gaither. He’s not that good. So what else do we have that they would want? They might like having Landry in the secondary, if they feel they could put him in a successful role. I don’t think they’d be that interested in Rogers, not any more than as a sweetener to an otherwise not-quite-strong-enough offer. They probably don’t want Haynesworth. What does that leave us? Cooley/Davis? I’d rather not give up one of the very few playmakers we have on our offense. So how can we get him? Because if we can trade for him and draft Okung, I will begin to be much less pessimistic about our current course of events. And that’s what they’re going for, right? Full fan satisfaction? j/k
We might be able to convince them to take Landry in a deal
That way they have both Landry brothers and a replacement for Ed Reed when he hangs em up, probably after this year if not next.
Yeah, I was thinking that too
But I don’t really know how much value he has on the trade market. He’s been playing out of position for two full seasons now. That makes his tape look worse than it should.
Except they have a great GM, not an idiot
We might be able to convince them to take Landry in a deal
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
and then who do we start at free safety ???
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Apr 6, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
so mcnabb is younger than i am...and that other guy fav-re!
what happens if we do something silly…you know…promise not only money but protection to mcnabb and all of a sudden we don’t have okung (that blows) but you do have 2 #2 OTs in this draft and either a QB or a RB in the later rounds…unfortunately..the loss of a THE OT…we have A QB and a LINE…idk…i read a blog on hear about control…and thinking and hating the thought of having tebow has gotten me to the point where i have gotten that point…BUT…it has gotten me over my DAY SNYDER SYNDROME…i will leave this to the people that know what they are doing…while W has done everything to disgrace the notion that families do well in power…i think we need to give allen and more importantly the shannny family…idk…i have enjoyed the commentary so far and hope to add something…whut up sugar and eballs!
by Forestvillain for Life on Apr 6, 2010 12:10 AM EDT reply actions
hahaha
left coast up in here.
i love how you bring george bush into this…classic.
mcnabb might be younger than you but he is not as good a receiver as you are
by Ken Meringolo on Apr 6, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Not Drinking the Kool-aid just yet
I would be hesitant to jump all over the McNabb bandwagon just yet. While I think he is an above average QB and i like what he brings to the table, the real concern still needs to be addressed and that is the offensive line. Most passing plays last year are based on three step drop, JC was already running for his life on step 2. Sure, receivers are going to be open almost every play, but if you cannot see around two or three 300 lb defensive lineman or a 255 lbs linebacker in full sprint, you are not going to complete a pass. If there are no drastic changes to the O-line, then I am afraid McNabb’s career will be resembling a well known NIN album. (Downward Spiral – although there would be no spiral affect to it, it would be straight down).
Joe Gibbs proved in the past that you don’t need a great QB to win the ultimate prize. I am pretty sure Shanahan knows this as well and hopefully will draft appropriately. Fans have been saying this for the past 3 years…Fix the fricken O-line! Then, and only then I will drink the Kool-aid imported fresh from Jonestown. (this ref is showing my age)
by ConflictedRedskinsFan on Apr 6, 2010 3:13 PM EDT reply actions
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