Could(Should) The Redskins Select NdamuKong Suh?
by johnnydee83 on Mar 17, 2010 4:00 AM EDT
120 comments
It is not to early to discuss the very real possibility for N-Kong Suh to FALL into the Redskins laps on draft night. Suh has been the consensus best player in the country and #1 pick since last fall. But with a strange confluence of events, that Best Player looks likely to drop to #4. The question is: Do we take Him?
The Rams hold the 1st pick and appear ready to draft the face of their franchise in Sam Bradford. The Lions all but publicly verified, by their free agent acquisitions, that they will take Russell Okung with the 2nd pick. By all accounts the Buccaneers will select Gerald McCoy with the 3rd pick as he is the penetrating 3-Technique defensive tackle that their defense requires. Their personnel people, anonymously, have stated repeatedly that they prefer McCoy over Suh. That puts Washington on the clock at approximately 8:00pm on April 22, 2010. Do we take him?
There are not enough superlatives in Webster's Dictionary or a College Thesaurus to begin to describe Suh. Safe to say that he is one of the most celebrated and hyped prospects to ever enter the NFL draft. Ndamukong is named after a Cameroon tribe and his name means "House of Spears"; very appropiate, both for his play and a team named the Redskins. At 6'-4", 307 lbs; he runs a sub 5-40yd, put up 225lbs-32 times, and had a 35" vertical jump. He is an explosive machine that can dominate any offensive line and is quite frankly; Unblockable. N-Kong has that rare blend of Athleticism, Power, and Strength to be an instant impact player, and elevate everyone around him to be more productive. He can play Nose and End in the 3-4, and Tackle in a 4-3. Suh has certified Hall-of-Fame ability, is a once in a decade player, and is favorably compared to Reggie White and Warren Sapp. More than a few scouts and 'experts' have said he is the best prospect they have ever seen. The question again is: If he is sitting there at #4, Do We Take Him?
The ongoing argument in Redskin Nation has been QB or LT? LT or QB? Bradford or Okung? Now as it seems apparent that both will be gone, new questions emerge. Take the 2nd best QB? Take the 2nd best LT? Or take the best player to come out of college in years? NdamuKong Suh, "House of Spears", may very well be sitting there at 8pm on April 22, waiting...............for someone to call his name. Would you? And more importantly should the Redskins?
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My vote is a resounding.. YES!!!
I wonder if Suh can bribe Phillip Daniels into getting his # 93 jersey?
Now that’s a jersey I would purchase.
YES!!!!!!!!
We NEED a tackle, but you cant force a pick. Take Suh! When the Viking selected Adrian Peterson in 2007 I am sure they didn’t have running back as their biggest need. Especially with Chester Taylor coming off a 1300+ yard season. However AP was the best player on their board so they chose him. It was a great pick and it would be the same situation with the Redskins and Suh. Also, having Haynesworth and Suh on the D line would give us a huge advantage in NFC East. I could only imagine the havoc they would cause.
Yes, I agree 100%.
The thought of Haynesworth and Suh working over an offensive line until they cry ‘Uncle’, makes every sunday feel like Christmas morning and Thanksgiving Feast combined.
by johnnydee83 on Mar 17, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
damn
taking an offensive lineman in the first round? Especially the 4th pick I dont know fellas. There are 5 lineman on the feild at any given time paying one guy millions of dollars aint gonna keep the qb off his back.
IF Suh falls to us, I would trade the pick for a kings ransom. There will be at least one team willing to give up quality to grab him. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love for him to be on our team and I think he’ll be a force in years to come, but I also I think we can get more value from the pick we garner from the trade down than we could get from Suh. If it would allow us to pick one of the OTs in the draft and Ryan Matthews I would be a happy guy.
Interesting thought, but not as much as you would think.
Don’t think we would get 2-1st rounders for Suh. Probably a later 1st, a third, and next years 2nd and 5th. I don’t think I would do that, 1 much less quality player along with a few decent to mediocre players don’t give back the proper value for Suh. Teams hate giving up draft picks, and don’t usually want to pay top 5 money.
by johnnydee83 on Mar 17, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Johnny you are valuing
the 4th pick with that logic, but with a player as hyped as Suh, the 4th pick is not any ordinary 4th pick, we would have multiple teams clamouring for him, and would be in the position of power to choose the best deal for us
Pommylee
I agree with both of you to a degree
In the end, I don’t see anyone giving up enough for us to consider trading a player like Suh. It would take multiple picks over 2 years and would not in net effect improve the team like the impact player Suh is.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
exactly
as much as you would love to have Suh, a team with as many holes as the Skins, shoudl be happy to trade Suh (ort the rights to pick him at 4 to be precise) for MULTIPLE HIGH ROUND PICKS
as in 2 Firsts and a Second (looking at San Fran)
Or a First this year and 2011, plus 2 seconds, or a second and a third
And teams out there would be prepared to give it up too/ Maybe even New England who have about 2 thirds of the total picks in this years draft including every single second round pick if my memory serves me correctly
Pommylee
I don't think any team would give up more than what the trade chart dictates.
Swap 1st rd picks, get a 3rd, and another 2nd or 3rd next year. I would prefer to just get Suh.
I'm torn between a mammoth trade down (and it would truly have to be mammoth)
versus getting to watch what could amount to one of the greatest D lines ever. One of my concerns about the NFL is that it has become such a pass happy offensive league, when I really like to see dominant defensive play – by our guys. This could truly be awesome.
If we acknowledge that it is at minimum a 2 draft rebuild, it makes sense to take Suh. If we trade down, and it would really have to be a total antidote for most of the past decades draft sins, we might be able to make a run a lot sooner. But even if we got 3-4 picks for Suh (maybe not all this year anyway), there is always the chance that he goes to someone else in the NFC East – and I would regret that we let that happen forever.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Yes, we would regret it forever.
Every sunday night watching ESPN highlights with Suh manhandling opponents would be an exercise in agita and hand-wringing for years to come.
by johnnydee83 on Mar 17, 2010 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions
Not to mention him wreaking havoc on our Oline
and QB, whomever that may be, twice a year. I couldn’t stomach it if Dallas or the Eagles got him. Or the Giants for that matter.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Take Suh.
Unless a team is offering a package we can’t refuse, then we HAVE to take Suh. He’s got too much potential to pass up.
At least I'm also a Redskins fan... oh wait. My sports life sucks.
What if the Bucs take Suh?
Do the Skins take G. McCoy? Maybe the Bucs are doing a smoke screen and really want Suh.
Very possible that Tampa just assumed Suh would be gone.
And were prepared to hopefully land McCoy. But the truth is, if the Bucs continue with their Tampa 2 defense, then McCoy would be a better fit as he is a penetrating D-lineman. Suh is more dominating, holds the point of attack, and collapses the pocket. McCoy is quicker and slips through defenders to get into the backfield.
Personally, I like McCoy a lot and would take him gladly at 4, but do think that Tampa gets him.
by johnnydee83 on Mar 17, 2010 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions
The #4 pick for Suh or McCoy
would change the NFL East approach on offensive lines. Their draft strategy might even change in 2010, but they might not be able to beef up their O-lines that much in the first round given their picks.
In war when there is obvious defeat in view, countries are known to sue for peace. I don’t know how that plays out in the NFL. Maybe the competition committee tries to get rules changes.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 17, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions
A defensive line with Haynesworth and Suh should dominate....
any offensive line in the league. It would definately change opponents game planning.
Don't forget
a reasonably healthy Ma’ake Keomatu is a force in the middle. It would truly be an awesome line to watch.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Yes
I’m all for taking Suh at #4, especially if Okung is off the board. I wouldn’t consider any QB other than Bradford at #4, and it’s probably a bit of a reach to the next OT. Our O-line would probably still suck, but out DL would be filthy. Then we would work on finishing the O-line next offseason, and it’s a pretty good 2-year plan.
With Suh AND Haynesworth, things would get pretty interesting since neither is really a true 3-4 space eater. I wonder how the NT rotation would work with Suh, Albert, and Kemoeatu (hopefully healthy).
"I wonder how the NT rotation would work with Suh, Albert, and Kemoeatu (hopefully healthy)."
Haynesworth was able to play 60+ of the defensive plays in games in which he was able to start. Kemoeatu may be only a two down NT, but I don’t know that much about him, i.e., this is a typical heavy NT rotatation. Whether it is Suh or McCoy, they are both lean and have good endurance. Still in the NFL, teams like to rotate DL to keep them fresher at the end of games.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 17, 2010 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'm thinking
On 1st and 2nd: Kemoeatu at NT, Al and Suh at ends. Jarmon/Daniels rotate in at ends. Al shifts in when Kemoeatu needs a breather.
On 3rd/obvious passing downs: Albert at NT, Suh and Jarmon/Carter at ends. Suh shifts to NT when Al is out. Jarmon, Carter, Daniels rotate in for DE subs.
Depending on how our LB situation shakes out, Rak could rotate in at DE on passing downs as well. I’d assume he’ll be a blitzing LB on most 3rd downs, but we could put play him as a down lineman for a change of pace, too. When people/Haslett talk about running a “hybrid 3-4,” I assume that Rak will be the wild card between those 3-4 and 4-3.
Depth from existing roster:
Holmes was added to the roster on Dec 1 practice squad – UDFA. Golston and Montgomery offers some depth.
62 Holmes, Antoine DL 6-2 289 R North Carolina State 03-25-1986
64 Golston, Kedric DT 6-4 300 3 Georgia 05-30-1983
92 Haynesworth, Albert DT 6-6 350 7 Tennessee 06-17-1981
94 Montgomery, Anthony DT 6-6 330 3 Minnesota 03-08-1984
Most of these guys will be OLB in the 3-4. Daniels will be a 3-4 DE
99 Carter, Andre DE 6-4 253 8 California 05-12-1979
93 Daniels, Phillip DE 6-5 305 13 Georgia 03-04-1973
91 Jackson, Rob DE 6-4 269 1 Kansas State 11-03-1985
90 Jarmon, Jeremy DE 6-3 277 R Kentucky 11-20-1987
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 17, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
I think Kemo is a 2 down Nose.
On third down and passing downs, they would put either Haynes or Suh at Nose and bring in a speed rushing End. To go with Orakpo, they would have an elite defensive front. Like All-Time elite.
The 37th pick in this move
should be the best offensive lineman available, preferably one with left tackle potential. Hopefully the Skins could pickup another offensive lineman in free agency.
Free Agent Offensive Linemen March 16, 2010
2009 Season started 8+ games or over half of snaps 1)
PFF overall rating + 100
TACKLES:
Gaither, Jared T RFA 6-9 340 3rd Season BAL TBD 120
Colon, Willie T RFA 6-3 315 4th Season PIT TBD 118
Clary, Jeromey T RFA 6-6 320 3rd Season SD TBD 102
Yanda, Marshal T RFA 6-3 313 3rd Season BAL TBD 110
Clabo, Tyson T RFA 6-6 331 4th Season ATL TBD 100
Sims, Barry T UFA 6-5 300 11th Season SF TBD 98
GUARDS:
Evans, Jahri G RFA 6-4 318 4th Season NO TBD 137
Williams, Bobbie G UFA 6-4 345 10th Season CIN TBD 118
Mankins, Logan G RFA 6-4 310 5th Season NE TBD 117
Sims, Rob G RFA 6-3 312 4th Season SEA TBD 114
Colledge, Daryn G RFA 6-4 308 4th Season GB TBD 105 Sacks Allowed
Cole, Nick G RFA 6-0 350 4th Season PHI TBD 100
Baas, David G RFA 6-4 330 5th Season SF TBD 99
Kuper, Chris G RFA 6-4 303 4th Season DEN TBD 99
1) http://home.comcast.net/~fwroy/version%202%20NFL%20OL%20talent.html
I don’t know what the tenders are on all these RFAs and what it would take to make a deal. Only Barry Sims and Bobbie Williams are UFA and they have age.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 17, 2010 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions
Gaither is the one to go for.
I also think that Saffold, Ducasse would be available at 37, and worth picking.
Also a trade is very possible with the 37th pick. They could then go with Veldheer.
Ravens | Gaither to report for workouts
http://www.kffl.com/player/17838/nfl
It would seem that Gaither would either sign a liability waver or sign his tender offer. His agent is known to be tough which has me wondering what his tender actually is.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 26, 2010 2:11 PM EDT up reply actions
He has until April 15 to sign.
He would be covered by the team until then, unless they specifically tell him not to show up.
A 1st rd tender is 3.1M, he is stuck with the team until they trade him. Baltimore may just decide to keep him if no one offers a 1st rd pick.
Depending how the 1st rd goes, we may be better off to draft a Tackle in the 2nd.
There will be quality Tackles available at a great price. Gaither is going to want big money, and he does carry some injury risk.
Jared Gaither Holding Out - Contradiction?
He wants a long term deal now, and isn’t going to accept anything less that elite LT money. He won’t be there for voluntary workouts or camp. And im pretty sure this is thanks to Rossenhaus, this is how he does business.
http://cookies.cbssports.com/mcc/messages/chrono/20587013
March 23, 2010 8:16 pm
Harbs is talking about how he is disappointed in him, it sounds like he is headed for Harbs doghouse. If there is anyone on the roster that needs to show up for OTAs, training camp and needs to work hard in the offseason its Jared Gaither. His progression has been too slow and already has issues with work ethic. Either we give him the deal now and get him working or we move him and get an additional first rounder, there will be high quality RTs available even into the 2nd round this year.
I just don’t see how we will be able to afford Gaithers demands. Grubbs rookie contract will come up soon, and Oher will want elite LT money when his contract comes up. We can’t afford to invest all our money on the OL. And Gaither is far from elite.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 26, 2010 9:18 PM EDT up reply actions
I could have added
Chester Pitts, but he is coming off of an ACL. Basically an offensive lineman better than any of those on the existing roster. Someone better than Rabach or Dockery is a possibility at RT or RG. I’m not saying Hicks won’t help.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 18, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions
Hicks is good depth, possible starter with Rinehart in the RG mix.
I think Heyer-Jones are at RT. They need to bring in someone else, maybe undrafted.
LT is the key roster spot that has to get filled thru draft or trade. I think they are ok at guard this year.
Sims is a possibility at LT for a year while draft choice ramps up.
I am surprised that they haven’t signed anyone but Hicks for O-line. Maybe they are waiting for more players to be released.
I took a look at Rinehart and Mike Williams at right guard.
If you eliminate Mike Williams performance at right tackle and add his RG to Rinehart’s, the combined PFF for them does not look that bad. In other words, RG might be set if each of them can take it up a notch from their 2009 game.
So far nothing has happened with Levi Jones and I would still have hope for him coming back to his level of play in 2007.
Another OL the Skins have shown interest in is Montrae Holland who played in Denver in 2007. Holland would be familiar with Shanny’s blocking schemes. A contract for him would be $2m+. http://www.sbnation.com/nfl/players/2023/Montrae_Holland
I also took another look at your DT prospect, Geno Atkins who you mentioned before the combines and listed him together with some other DT that could have 3-4 DE potential – http://www.hogshaven.com/2010/3/22/1385699/the-guy-no-one-is-talking-about-4. Some of these guys could have the same effect as Suh-McCoy in combination with Haynesworth and Kemoeatu as the 3 hands down D-linemen. Their combine results show them to be athletic.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 23, 2010 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions
I agree, I think RG is ok for this year, and Hicks is in the mix as well.
I also hope Levi Jones comes back. I don’t think Holland helps as he looks like a guard only. They need to bring in another Tackle from somewhere. I also like Atkins, but he probably is a late 2nd-early 3rd round pick.
If you are looking for a young Nose Tackle prospect, other ones to look at would be:
Jeff Owens-4th rd
Linval Joseph-5th rd
Torrell Troup-5th rd
Boo Robinson-UDFA
They would add depth and restbits this year, but could potentially work into the starting spot next year or after.
Barry Sims has resigned with the 49ers.
Some players not listed are getting a lot of action like Chester Pitts, G, who has about 6-8 weeks to go before he can do football kind of running. Houston is still interested in him.
Jermon Bushrod, LT, has a 2nd round tender. He did well in the Super Bowl against Dwight Freeney. However, Freeney was not 100%.
The free agency pickings get slimmer and slimmer. With this the Suh option does not improve.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 22, 2010 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Yep, Sims apparently used the Skins to bolster his position with the 49ers.
As so many have done before already. That hurts as a Tackle is an essential pick-up. Okung looks gone at 2 still, and another experienced vet would be nice to have on hand. Mike Gandy of Arizona is still available as a UFA. Honestly, I think we can do better than Bushrod with our 2nd pick. You’re right though in that the pickings are getting slim indeed. We don’t know if they would even select Suh/McCoy if the opportunity was there. Oh gosh, I hope they wouldn’t reach for an offensive Tackle, and leave a dominating player still on the board!
That would be angry
dominating beef, Sir. Would you like another?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Domination
Taking Suh on paper would make for a dominant defensive line and make just about any blitzer effective as there should be enough manpower to stop Mak’e, Haynesworth and Suh.
I don’t think it would be wise to trade down if he fell to us in the same manner Orapko fell to us. What’s the saying, don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.
The more I think about this...
The more and more I like it. I might even prefer this over Okung. That would really be a nasty defensive front—enough to make an average secondary look really good. Then it would become a matter of trying to rebuild the offense over the next couple seasons.
I still think Detroit take Suh
just witht he success Shwartz had with Big Al in Tennessee I cant see him passing up on Suh for an OT. I think all their moves were on the understanding that St Louis were taking Suh, now that it looks like they will go Bradford, I see Suh still going to the Lions.
Pommylee
or maybe thats just
wishful thinking on my part
cos I really beleive that if Okung is gone, that makes Clausen about 50% more likely to come here, which does not sound like a good thing
Pommylee
I dunnoy about McCoy
look for all I know he could be great
But it just seems that we already have Haynesworth, and the only reason a team with as many needs as the Skins would go DT in this draft is if a once in a generation player was there, which Suh appears to be. So I dont mind Suh, but rather than go 2nd best DT in McCoy I’d prefer 2nd Best OT, either Bugala or Williams or whoever ppl who know a lot more than me rate as the next best on the board
Pommylee
It's an interesting debate.
Gerald McCoy is only slighlty less rated than Suh, but higher than anyone else in the country. He is another stud who should dominate the sport for the next 10 years. I personally really like him, but yea, he is not Suh.
agreed
that the Lions want to strengthen the Oline to keep Stafford upright.
Suh
I would have to say there is now way we can pass on Suh. Unless we get a really nice offer. Wasn’t it the saints that gave up like everything in their draft for Ricky WIlliams? Something like that I would not be upset with. But we can’t give the NFC East Suh. I would hate to see him going up against the Skins twice a year.
It was the Saints...
and they gave up like everything to the Redskins. That’s how we got Lavar AND Chris Samuels in the draft the year after that (picks 2 & 3 overall, I think).
No doubt in my mind
we should take Suh. Screw the “system.” I’m all for running a 3-4, but in the end, football players win games. And if you can trot out a line as with TWO dominant forces like Suh and Big Al, you’re gonna win a lot of games. Suh has been my favorite player in this draft all along, and nothing has changed that. Like I’ve said before, I think the length of time between the end of the college football season and the draft gives teams too much time to out think themselves.( which is why Orakpo fell to us)
Then there’s the combine. Sometimes the best players don’t “measure up” at the combine, whether it be in drills, height and/or weight, or workout statistics. But Suh did nothing in Indy to dispel the notion that he is a beast. So if you have tape on the guy that shows he is a force, AND all his “measurables” add up to the same conclusion, then he is as close to a “can’t miss” as you can get. Therefor, you take him with no hesitation and gear up for a season of watching opposing QB’s quiver at the site of B-Rak, Suh, and Big Al chomping at the bit to get to them.
Sends chills up and down my spine just thinking about it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
You wet your pants and got cotton candy stuck up your nose??? LOL
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I never gave any consideration that Suh could possibly drop to us at #4.
It seemed a forgone conclusion that he went #1. But now, with Bradford & Okung looking very likely at #1 & 2, and Tampa has been so high on McCoy. The impossible seems very possible. I don’t see how we can turn him down, or even trade out of the pick. The guy is a complete beast. And with Haynesworth and Kemoeatu; throw in O-po coming after the QB; too much fun. I wouldn’t even want to watch the offense.
We wouldn't have to
Just get a punt returner with jets and the O can just show up for 3 and outs. Strangely reminiscent…well, they’ll still be better than last year.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Yea very, but ooh that defense could be really special.
Can you imagine 5 guys not being able to block 3 week-in, week-out?
Every team would have to go to 2-TE sets just to block our D-line.
I was beginning to wonder whether
we should have a “Redskins Pride Day” and a parade if Zorn remained HC.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
More like a "Burgundy Burlap Sack-Day" and a parade.......
of shame and utter despair at our plight for freedom.
Not only could you expect
more three and outs, but also turn overs and holding penalties.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 18, 2010 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Our Defense will be our Best Offense, and our offense can be defensive.
Haslett will be calling plays looking for scores, and Kyle will be calling plays for no turnovers and pin the opposition deep in their territory.
i think we can all agree on one thing.....
anybody but clausen!!!!!!!
Dorothy Mantooth is a saint!!!
In my opinion, I would accept the following 1st rd selections at #4;
Bradford, Okung, Suh, McCoy, Berry, and now Haden. Anyone else would merit a trade-down even if we took a hit on the trade chart.
I am all over Bradford only because I think....
he and the Shans will be great together.
I have doubts about Claussen to.
If we go QB this year I could live with
Bradford or LeFevour. Bradford should be gone to the Rams at #1. It scares the hell out of me that Clausen will be there at #4
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Agree, Bradford is almost universally the top QB choice and a top 5 pick.
Claussen has his supporters, but also has just as many detractors including NFL types who doubt his leadership skills and intangibles.
Shanahan’s indecision with Campbell leads me to think he wants a new QB.
All in all either Okung or Suh works best for me, but Bradford, McCoy, Berry are ok to.
With the news that Georgetown's guard was diagnosed as diabetic
it was made known that Clausen is also diabetic. I would suspect that Clausen was a type 1 diabetic which means that it was likely to have occurred when he was young. I could see how type 1 would have it’s effects on a young person’s attitude and outlook. There have been diabetics that have done alright on the playing field including a major league pitcher the Nationals had (and may still have). Does that mean people should give Clausen some slack – NO.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 19, 2010 6:39 PM EDT up reply actions
I did not know that.
I am sure NFL teams have taken that into account. I don’t think that will affect his overall ranking, if a team really likes him, they will take him.
effed up rhetoric
but it reminds me of Adam Morrison to a tee. Dominant skill set vs college counterparts, but stuck on stupid nonetheless.
by KellRawLive on Mar 19, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
When I saw “McCoy” I did a double take.
But after reading this thread, I’m starting to come over to the ‘just draft him’ side. I still think our two highest priorities are OL then RB, but I guess we can get a solid RB on the second day (although I’d piss my pants if we could get Matthews with something other than our 4th), and we can draft a solid OL with the 2nd. It all comes down to value, I suppose. If a team is that desperate to get him, (say we give our 1st and 2nd to the 49ers for both their firsts and their second – which comes out to be about right on the value chart), then I would highly consider trading it.
Oh, and I wouldn’t be upset about drafting Bulaga, although there will probably be better options even if Okung is off the board.
by soup du jour on Mar 19, 2010 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions
McCoy will be a tackle-for-loss king.
Unfortunately, I am not sure how Haslett would use him. He will not eat blockers, as I fear Haslett wants. If Haslett would use him correctly, he will be unstoppable.
I would just as soon trade down at a chart-loss to get Campbell, Davis, or even Brown than take Bulaga or Williams at 4. Swap 1sts, throw in a late 2nd or early 3rd, maybe a 4th next year. I’m not liking Bulaga or Williams as long-term LTs.
No no, you misunderstand; my first inclination with the last name McCoy was to Colt.
But I’m interested in why you don’t like Bulaga at 4? Because from all accounts he’s top 10 worthy. Is it because you don’t think he’s top 5 worthy or because he’s not even top 10 material?
by soup du jour on Mar 19, 2010 6:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, ok yea, I meant Gerald.
Bulaga has several issues that are a concern; he had a mediocre season this year, he also missed several games with an ongoing thyroid condition. He is slower with his feet than other tackles, and with his shorter arms, he may end up at RT.
He probably goes top 10 since he is the 2nd rated tackle, but I hope they would trade down for another pick and a tackle with a higher ceiling.
very confusing
Anyone else would merit a trade-down
You named 6 guys. Call me crazy, but my math says that, holding the #4 pick gives us an outside shot at 3 of them.
But you got it 1/4 right in my book. Okung or Suh you take, the rest you trade down. Bradford would probably net us the most in return, and maybe McCoy. And taking either Berry or Haden would be spending yet another high first rounder on a defensive back. How has that worked out for us so far this decade? All Haden showed me was that he couldn’t perform under pressure, only when he controls the environment. No thanks. And as for Berry, maybe he’ll be a beast, maybe he won’t. Hell, MAYBE he’ll be as good as they said Laron Landry was gonna be. Either way, we have way too many holes to fill to waste our first rounder on a safety. Why would you spend the most on your last line of defense? Again, that’s like the army only training clerks and chaplains to use bazookas.
I know, I think those 6 guys are top-5 caliber.
Haden looks to be a lock-down Revis-like corner. Berry has too much upside, he can be a great safety or a great CB. McCoy, in the right defense, will be a pro-bowler. Bradford in a Shanny system is too good for me to pass on. Okung is likewise an awesome pick.
I would rather a trade-down than reach for anyone else.
Eric Berry is better than Landry
That’s unfair. Landry has been playing out of position anyway. And we did make one hell of a selection with a certain FS in the past.
Berry is not a waste at all if we draft him at #4. Our secondary sucks without an intelligent centerfielder. Our last line of defense has been our Achilles heel for two years now, so solidifying that would probably be in our best interests. This is a pass-happy league after all. Berry dominated the best conference in college football for 3+ years, and that conference trots out some bad ass WR’s on a weekly basis.
I’m with ya for the most part. I think Haden is overrated, I also think we’re in a position to draft the best available player regardless of how the chips fall in the 3 slots preceding us, simply because we have holes at every position, in every scenario.
The ONLY way we screw this up is if we reach for Clausen & stick with him.
by KellRawLive on Mar 20, 2010 12:23 AM EDT up reply actions
I agree, I would be fine with Berry.
He fills an immediate need long term, and should be a game changing player and defensive leader.
Yea, Haden might be a reach, I do agree.
Any one of the top 5 is acceptable to me. Definately don’t want Claussen or reach for one of the other Tackles.
agree to disagree
First of all, let me get this straight. I’m not saying that Berry is a bad player. I think he’ll probably be a good player. But, right now, there are only 3 difference making safeties in the league. Are you telling me he’s gonna be Ed Reed? Or Polamalu? Or Sharper? Sean Taylor? I mean, can you REALLY tell me that? I’m thinking no. If you can, than I say take him without a doubt. But I know you can’t. So, I’m not interested. Safeties aren’t worth taking that high, unless the rest of your team is set, and you have the luxury of picking him.
Our last line of defense has been our Achilles heel for two years now
This is untrue as well. Sure, last year our secondary sucked. But the year before that, we had no pass rush whatsoever. No pressure on the quarterback. Our secondary is what kept us in the games.
Now, let me walk on thin ice here. I want to preface this by saying that there wasn’t isn’t a bigger Sean Taylor fan then me. But, lets be realistic. How many division titles did we win with him patrolling the secondary? How many NFC championships? How many Superbowls? None. Was it because of him? Hell no. Was he the best player on our team? Definitely. But what good does it do you to have a great safety, when there are so many holes in front of him? You build a defense from the line on back. And, hopefully, you have a good enough front 7 that the back 4 don’t matter as much. Which is the formula the Giants used to win their Superbowl.
Anyway, I’m rambling. My main point is, yes, we hit a home run with Taylor. But we struck out with Rogers, and we’re on our last strike in the bottom of the ninth with Landry (god I hate baseball, why am I using this analogy). We’ve spent 3 picks on our secondary this decade with, unfortunately due to circumstances beyond football, nothing to show for it. We’ve spent more top 10 picks on safeties this decade than any other team has ever. These last two statements put us in Matt Millen territory.
So let Berry be good for someone else. Unless they can put a great front 7 in front of him, it won’t matter. Meanwhile, lets address the positions that we DON’T already have starters penciled in at.
To be fair, I have ranked Berry as the 5th best player.
I don’t see the organization taking him. They obviously will be able to select one of the top 4. Most people don’t want McCoy, and he could be just as good as Suh. Granted, he may not be as good of a fit if Haslett wants his linemen to occupy blockers. As far as Berry goes, I don’t worry about past mistakes. We have a new regime, and if they did select Berry, I would be fine with him. For the record, I do think Berry will be a difference maker. His skill-set along with his leadership ability have him in the top 5 on most every board.
My overall point is that I want a top 5 player period. Hopefully they don’t reach for anyone. I still think and Hope that Suh falls into our lap, which is what I ultimately want.
by johnnydee83 on Mar 20, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
At least we agree on that
I would be ecstatic to see Suh fall to us. I think he is the #1 talent in the draft. I felt that way during the season, and nothing has changed my mind since. McCoy, on the other hand, rose up draft boards after the season, which always makes me leery. As for Berry, sure, maybe he is top 5 talent. But I’ve seen some “experts”, including Mayock, who say Earl Thomas is better than Berry. And, I also know that, this time last year, everyone was saying Taylor Mays would be the best safety coming out, and a top 5 pick. Do I think Berry is better than those guys? Probably. But it raises enough doubt to not trust him with the #4 pick. But, like I said, I wouldn’t take a safety #4 anyway. The best safeties in the league were taken much lower.
Keeping Haynesworth happy will not be using him
to occupy o-linemen, but he has always been double teamed. In 2009 Haynesworth played on 573 snaps versus 1055 for Fletcher. This was a combination of missing games and less snaps per game. Goldston and Daniels played more snaps than Haynesworth. The point being that even with Suh (or McCoy), the Skins need other help at the 3-4 defensive end or the 4-3 DT.
On the other hand, Maake Kemoeatu has been that kind of NT that occupies space, i.e., the gaps on each side of the offensive center. With Haynesworth and Suh at the defensive ends the center could not expect much help.
Also, the side issue, Taylor Mays did not do as well in 2009 as 2008 because he did not have the outstanding set of linebackers playing with him at USC. I get the impression that he was like LaRon Landry last season – going for the big hit.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 20, 2010 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions
your Taylor Mays
statement is a great pull. I didn’t even think about that (and I think of everything!) I guess it’s cuz I don’t pay any attention to college football ‘til Bowl season, then the draft. Anyway, it just drives home my point that it doesn’t matter how good a defensive back is, if he doesn’t have the right help up front. And, not just that, but the “right help up front” can easily make a DB look better than he is.
I also agree about Haynesworth, but it seems that they intend on using him at DE anyway, regardless of whether we are lucky enough to land Suh. I have a feeling they will end up shopping Carter around for a 3-4 end.
A Carter trade scenario would affect their draft strategy.
If they do trade Carter for Carriker as rumored, that would in effect negate the Suh/McCoy discussion. With Carriker and Haynesworth as the 2 ends, they would be looking elsewhere with the 1st pick. I agree, Carter is expendable with the 3-4 switch, but how and for who he gets dealt will affect their decision making.
Also, at some point they have to get another linebacker in the fold. At least with the 5th round pick, maybe 4th.
The Lions first pick:
The Lions signed Kyle Vanden Bosch, a 4-3 DE and traded for Corey Williams, a 3-4 DE (4-3 tackle). While this does not preclude the Lions from drafting Suh, it does increase the chances of them going OL for Okung. You (plural) really don’t know how all of this will unfold in the draft, but like you say the trades and/or free agency pick ups can change the draft strategy scenario in the coming weeks.
Carter’s age is the main trade constraint. He certainly still has the ability, especially after 2009 season.
Haynesworth likely improved Carter’s numbers although the DC wouldn’t admit it.
by Jefferson1935 on Mar 20, 2010 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I agree that Hayneworth's presence helped Carter.
And teaming him with Suh could only help everyone around them.
I do think they are trying to make some deals with Carter and others prior to the draft to fill holes or gain more picks. Any talk of a Rams(Carriker) deal has me thinking the #1 pick is also involved. I wonder if they even view Suh/McCoy as a potential target, hard to believe considering how dominant they will be.
by johnnydee83 on Mar 21, 2010 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I meant to
include the draft implication. Either way, I think Carter should be traded. If we can get Suh, then trade Carter for an OLB (or, if possible, an OT). If we don’t land Suh, then you trade for a DE. Basically, I think we should trade Carter either way. I would be perfectly fine having a competition between Wilson and Alexander for OLB. Personally, I don’t understand why they don’t make Alexander an ILB, keeping Rocky on the outside. I have trepidations on whether Rocky is big enough to play on the inside.
I agree, I don't know where Rocky fits in with the new defense.
I understand why they went after Foote, but then why not also make a play for Andra Davis? Their linebacking corps is now a big question, and soon to be a major need. We still don’t know how Fletch will adjust to the 3-4, plus he might be gone next year. McIntosh doesn’t look like a good fit, and they have no other OLB to team with Po. This looks like a trial year to guage the current roster, but in my mind, we need 3 new linebackers to make the change, along with another DE. A guy like Suh would really help with the transition. No Suh or McCoy, This 3-4 could really be a painful switch. One giant step backwards.
by johnnydee83 on Mar 21, 2010 12:48 AM EDT up reply actions
It's going to be interesting to see how this all plays out.
When all is said and done, we will have a ‘rock’ to start building the team around.
Haslett concerns me quite a bit.
I was hoping for a more forward thinking( i.e=Rex Ryan) type of co-ordinator who will be more innovative. Haslett’s history is that he is more of a structured, regimented scheme task-master. I’m worried that he will not make the best use of individual talent. I hope I’m wrong, and they use both formations, and throw in some new wrinkles.
I agree, Landry is a strong safety only, he needs to have his role more clearly defined, and the team needs to address the free safety position. Taylor Mays probably ends up as a linebacker.
If we draft Suh
are we more suited to stick with the 4-3? Carter would be back in the mix, and LFB would be back at his natural position. Plus, we wouldn’t have to worry about the inside position we ignored when Foote & Dansby were out there.
Suh is so versatile that he can excel in each front.
He can line up anywhere on the line and be effective. Hopefully they use multiple looks and parts of both schemes, and move Suh, Haynesworth, and Orakpo all over to create mismatches and add more confusion for the opposition.
Ndamukong Suh A Bust In The Making? History Says YES!!!
A post from Niners Nation on first round defensive linemen busts – http://www.ninersnation.com/2010/2/21/1320532/ndamukong-suh-a-bust-in-the-making – but it only proves that there are no guarantees in the draft. The author of the post doesn’t even see Suh as a bust. Yet who saw the players he mentions as potential busts either. Carriker is thought by many to be a bust. Others see him as just being played out of position, i.e., that he should be a 3-4 DE.
Even though Carter is older than Carriker it should be an even up deal (without the Skins giving other players in the trade).
Yea it's true, anyone can bust.
I remember each and every one of those players, and based on hype, felt they were can’t miss.
Most of it has to do with the player himself, does he still want to be an elite athlete, or just settle for being in the league? Injuries and bad coaching also contribute. Still, Suh has to be the one athlete in this draft that looks to be successful in the NFL.
I agree Carriker could find a resurgence if he moves to a different team in a 3-4 defense. I would think that could be an even trade. I still believe that St. Louis is willing to deal the #1 pick, and that Shanahan has Bradford in his sights. Throwing Carriker-Carter with Campbell and swapping of additional picks and/or players into the mix would get a deal done. We will have to wait and see, but I won’t believe the Rams make the 1 pick until they actually do.
Mock draft 3.0: Domino effect, need for OTs, could drop Suh By Bucky Brooks
http://www.nfl.com/draft/story?id=09000d5d816ffb3c&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true
This mock has Suh dropping to the Raiders at the 8th pick mainly because of OL needs by other teams. I still like Suh as the Skins #4 pick or the potential of a later 1st round pick and at least another pick in the 2nd or 3rd rounds.
Wow, can't see Suh falling to 8th. That would be the story of the draft.
Honestly can’t see him falling past us at 4, at least I hope not. I am still unsure of a trade-down with him on the board. It would depend on how far down in the 1st, and the other picks. If we dropped down 10 or less spots, want at least a 2nd and another 2nd next year. If more than 10 spots, want a 2nd and 3rd this year and a 3rd next year minimum. Suh would be perfect for this franchise in my opinion, trading him would be a difficult choice.
Blink, Blink
The Lions all but publicly verified, by their free agent acquisitions, that they will take Russell Okung with the 2nd pick.
Huh?
The Lions signed DE Kyle Vandenbosch, and traded for giant DT Corey Williams and superfast CB Chris Houston. All 3 are quality players with lots of starting experience. Lions coach Jim Schwartz has spoken very highly of LT Jeff Backus, calling him one of the best LT’s in the league. Most of the Lions sacks last year were allowed by the guards, not the LT. The main holes at this point are Left Safety, LG, and the other CB position. Jeff Backus’ contract runs through 2012. The Lions need a LG now and a LT in a couple years. The obvious, common sense move is to……get a LG now and a LT in a couple years. Don’t make it any more complicated than it has to be. Good LG’s are available in the middle rounds this year. A couple of good fast man cover CB’s could be available at #34. Meanwhile, there is a huge hole at Left Safety that was conspicuously not addressed during the recent Free Agent signings and trades. If the Rams have penciled in Sam Bradford as their pick, all signs point to the Lions having penciled in Safety Eric Berry as their pick, not LT Okung. It doesn’t hurt that Berry is also the “BPA that fits”, which is what Schwartz always says he wants.
Honorary Driver of the Kyle Wilson Bus and Keeper of the Dreadlocks!
The 313 Missile Squadron: Delmas, Berry, Wilson, Houston......seek and destroy!
Hey, as long as Zack Follett keeps hitting people, he can rap to Barney the Dinosaur for all I care.
The rumors I am hearing are that Bachus would move....
to his natural position at LG, and Okung would start at LT. They can get a starting caliber FS in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. LT is a higher priority position than any other, except QB, and they will need to address that position long-term very soon. Moving Bachus to guard improves their line play significantly, and helps to protect their 70 million dollar investment.
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