Sam Bradford Might Have Problems Playing for the Redskins...Being a Native American
by Kevin Ewoldt on Feb 3, 2010 4:02 PM EST
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Sam Bradford did a radio interview with Kevin Sheehan's Sports Fix on ESPN 980 radio today.
On the shoulder:
Sam Bradford: Shoulder feels great. I throw several days a week. Dr. Andrews said I'm ahead of schedule. He said no doubt I'll be 100% by my pro-day."
OK great...now for the juicy stuff:
Kevin Sheehan: You are of Native American descent, correct?
Sam Bradford: Correct.
Kevin Sheehan: So, out of curiosity, do you have any sort of feelings about the Redskins name?
Sam Bradford: "You know,obviously in Oklahoma there's a large Native American population. There are a lot of opinions on that name....but...I really don't feel like, you know, I need to be, you know, voicing my opinion. You know. If it's something I have to do down the line, you know, then I will, but I just don't feel like I need to address that issue right now."
Uh oh. That doesn't sound good. Obviously the kid is being careful not to say the wrong thing for any question, but I can't help but think he'd say "Nah...it doesn't other me" if it actually didn't.
Update: A great comment below from juperee: "My guess is that Sam is hedging his bets here because he doesn’t feel offended himself, but he doesn’t want to offend people who think he should be offended."
You can listen to the clip here.
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Well
but…I really don’t feel like, you know, I need to be, you know…Needed to be drafted my them. Don’t they need a OL anyway?
I'm worried about the beer supply. After this case, and the other case, there's only one case left- Barney Gumble
by CptChaosSidekick on Feb 3, 2010 4:03 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Exactly what i'm thinking. He wont adress it until hes sure were gonna draft him.
Then he will give his opinion; from the sound of it, he is offended.
Orakpo!!! Russel Okung next year!
Its not as easy as being scared and going back in
but not as painful, either.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Especially with what he went through with this year's Oklahoma line.
BCS Evolution -- Punctuating the Equilibrium - twitter
I hope
we don’t draft him anyways. Qb is not our biggest need.
I'd be offended
if we took any QB in the first 4 rounds of the draft.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Your feelings
Are not their priorty, despite all they’ve done in the past 10 years to make you feel good inside as a Redskin fan.
I'm worried about the beer supply. After this case, and the other case, there's only one case left- Barney Gumble
by CptChaosSidekick on Feb 3, 2010 4:25 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
that's so sad it's funny
despite all they’ve done in the past 10 years to make you feel good inside as a Redskin fan.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
I don't know why
but this interview pissed me off something terrible.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Location, location, location
I’d be rather circumspect too if I were asked that question while in Oklahoma. Not that I feel our name and tradition besmirch or degrade Native Americans in any way. Just a good chance you’ll find more people who MAY disagree with you.
Then again, I don’t know anyone who wasn’t offended by last season.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I am an okie of Cherokee descent (only 1/16th though)
…and when I still lived in Oklahoma, this issue came up once in a while for high school mascots and the like.
The consensus among my Native American friends was that the people who make the biggest deal about this were non-native Americans who imagined that there was a problem. We pretty much thought that the mascots are largely complimentary, symbolizing strength, bravery, etc., like other mascots (tigers, titans, cardinals…ok, not really cardinals). We treated each new so-called controversy with a collective eyeroll.
My guess is that Sam is hedging his bets here because he doesn’t feel offended himself, but he doesn’t want to offend people who think he should be offended.
May the wind be always at your back, and may your placekicker have icewater in his veins.
that makes the most sense
similar to what Scott E said.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Thanks for reaffirming my faith
in rational, level headed thinking in general.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Mascots
Over decades, plenty of Native Americans have voiced their opinion that the term Redskins is offensive (for example: http://www.thenativepress.com/sports/mascots_court.html). Though the name might not offend me/you/your friends/many Native Americans, it clearly disturbs a significant group.
As a lifelong Skins fan, I would love for the owners to take the high road and show even more respect than is required by law.
I spent 6 years in Winnipeg and Northern Manitoba, Canada
Where it is predominantly natives. If there’s one thing I’ve noticed, it’s that they recognize their ability to exploit their ancestors. Like any of us really, if there’s an opportunity to make a lot of money easily (like in a lawsuit over a name), someone is going to recognize and pursue it. A lot of the disgust they show will be feigned.
At last I checked
there is no constitutional right to not be offended. I like to think that I (and most of my fellow ‘Skins fans) are not deliberately trying to fan the flames of some folks indignation. We can’t change history – only the interpretation of it.
Let’s face it, some really bad crap happened on the verge of European contact with both North and South Americans. I just believe associating a football team with events that happened 400+ years ago is illegitimate and a stretch at best.
This is akin to attributing genocide to Italian Americans who celebrate Columbus Day – WTF?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
No, it's not.
That parallel is a stretch.
This is akin to attributing genocide to Italian Americans who celebrate Columbus Day – WTF?
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
The name is a generalization of a people, not an event...
The team is not named the Washington Red Sticks or Horseshoe Bends, that pertains to a particular time or event, rather a name stereotyping a race of people that carries a reckless negative meaning that could offend people of that particular race.
I am personally not offended because I have been raised to love the team, so I do not think of the word this way. Only as my football team. But considering how the race of people have always been treated and the connotation of the word to them should be heard.
But, My personal opinion is let’s keep it. It kinda shows the mentality of the people in the 30’s how they were so brash and ignorant to the thoughts and feelings of a population of people that we had just spent the better part of a century reducing to a mere percentage of what they were.
Couldn't agree more
I’ve heard PLENTY of interviews over the years with actual Native Americans who say the name doesn’t bother them in the least. Its the money grubbers and the people searching for a cause who make it such a big deal.
I am none of those things
and I simply think the right thing to do is change the name.
It was imposed by an extremely racist owner, and the actual name of the team has no effect whatsoever on my game day experience.
So change it already.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I like the Washington Warhawks
The dentation is the rebel band of politicians who urged congress to fight back against the British and start the war of 1812.
sure he was racist
but not towards Native Americans. Otherwise, why would he hire a Native American coach which, some reports say, is the reason he named the team Redskins.
As for the “game day experience”, I disagree there. First of all, if they changed the name, they would have to change the fight song, which is a huge part of the game day experience. (When we’re scoring, at least) It would also divide the teams history. If they change the name to Warthogs (or whatever), the former players who have made this franchise what it is will no longer be as closely associated. When Dexter, or Darrell, or Sonny talk about their team, they’re not gonna say they were Washington Wombats (or whatever), they are gonna say they were Washington Redskins. So the name will NEVER go away, but the connection between generations might.
The fact is, sports fans think of this team when they hear the word Redskin. Nobody associates it with anything other than a team moniker.
Wes Unseld isn't less associated with the Wizards
And they had an awful name change. If we had a decent one, within 2 years nobody would bat an eye.
And with the fight song, you’re talking about changing about 10 words. Same music. Same band. Same colors. Handful of new words.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
you say tomato
I say Bloody Mary. We just have differing opinions. Unseld is still associated with the team because he works for it. I have heard Warren Moon say that he is an Oiler, and will never consider himself a Titan. I’ve heard this sentiment from other players too. They talked to Earl Monroe after Pollin died, and he said he would always consider that team the Bullets.
Also, that’s yet another thought to consider. They could end up with a name as bad as Wizards.
The Oiler/Titan thing is much different
The switched cities, which is a whole new can of worms. And they did so under acrimonious circumstances.
Nobody really disassociates Unseld or the ’78 championship just b/c they changed names
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
again
Bloody Mary.
Like I said, Unseld has ALWAYS been associated with the organization, before and after the (horrible) name change. And the Titans weren’t the only example I gave, or have. But I still consider it a valid point. Regardless of the REASON, the team changed names. Now there are players in the HOF, record books, etc, who are associated with teams that don’t exist.
WIZARDS is terrible!
Just a joke. It sound so bush league.
Who knew
that Wizards were armed with guns that carry Bullets? I was thinking the long white hair, cone hat and magical staff. Must be a low self-esteem form of Wizard to need a gun, too.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I think one or two
wiz’d in their own shoe recently.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts on the subject
My wife is also part (a small aprt) Cherokee and while she isn’t thrilled with the term she isn’t offended by it either. Personally I don’t see how it can be considered negative with the way it’s used for the team.
It's not hard to see how using ethnic groups as a mascot could be seen negatively
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Why is it always
about others? Why can’t it ever be about me? :)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Who better than a true Native American to lead this team.
This just re-affirms my opinion that Bradford will be a Redskin come April.
By the way, I heard him on Cowherds show today, and he sounds like a very humble kid. Said the’s throwing 3 times a week, and shoulder is feeling good.
Colt said the same thing about his hip
Just sayin’….
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
That would definitely be a cool
late round pick-up.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Redskins
Sam is still learning about his own culture, because just like in the rest of the country, he is only been taught about American Indians what is in the history books. It’s a long conversation about mascots, but one good question to ask to tell whether or not it is offensive, is “if it was any other color of skin besides red, would it be tolerated or allowed?”
I actually, respectfully, disagree entirely.
I’m currently reading an excellent book by Tony Horwitz about the true history of this continent up until the Colonial period – the lost years for most of us who wondered what happened between 1492 and the settlements in Jamestown/Plymouth rock in the first decade of the 17th century.
He specifically cites early interactions with a tribe of Native Americans that inhabited the lower maritime provinces of Canada and what we know of now as Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, etc. They had – for some unknown reason (some speculate the warding off of blood sucking flies) – a tradition of coating their hair and bodies in a red ochre pigment made of mud and clay. This, it is believed by many scholars, is the origin of the term Redskin.
Now, maybe this is a mere technicality, but there is little evidence to support the notion that it was used as a derogatory term.
Again, maybe I’m splitting hairs here, but the point is that skin coloration is one of many characteristics of ethnic groups and need not be pejorative. I don’t want to get into all the names that are afforded various ethnic groups based on stereotypes, but skin color is just one of many and it does not automatically apply. Again, most scholars believe it was an entirely descriptive term vs a pejorative. Now, with some corruption over time, I agree it accumulated vulgar connotations for some, but that this prejudice is, if anything, on the wane. (And we are not trying to perpetuate these negative connotations.)
My ultimate point is that our Redskins tradition as a legacy, landmark franchise in the NFL, IMO, has NOTHING to do with a certain section of our population’s complexion (no matter how wrongfully Native Americans were treated otherwise). It is, however, indelibly linked with a common perception (also documented by Horwitz) by Europeans of the Noble Savage – that is a race of humans that are/were not corrupted by the many machinations (for lack of a good word) of European culture. This notion manifested itself in many ways, but one common theme was that of the warrior, which along with “nobility” most suits the uplifting perception we (I will speak here for a large number of the Redskins fan base) as fans view our football team. We want, if nothing else, for our football team to be warriors.
Finally, I have to argue, what fan-base would choose as an iconic representation of the team they passionately follow some form or character that it felt had little or no redeeming value? To suggest a slanderous or pejorative term for their icon (mascot) would be counter intuitive to say the least.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
If it's associated with the Noble Savage
Then we should get rid of it even quicker.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I didn't intend to
foster yet another misconception about Native Americans, but was belaboring the point about not all references to them are based on prejudice and that there are positive connotations that can be associated with our team’s name and how it represents us as fans.
Obviously, not everyone will agree, but…I sleep well over it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I was just saying that the Noble Savage is a fairly insulting concept
and was the underpinning of a lot of imperialism and genocide in the past.
It’s a con, not a pro
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I would say it was a
naive concept and basically neutral. There are PLENTY of other reasons for the subsequent de-population of the Carribean Islands and the native populations of North and South America – largely due to circumstances that were unavoidable at the time as no one really understood disease and contagions or the susceptibility of these populations to one another. (Don’t forget that syphilis was brought back to Europe from the New World.)
And I’m in know way trying to skate around the very real and extensive atrocities that occurred during this period. They just aren’t particularly relevant to the modern day discussion at hand. IMO
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
It is no way neutral
It’s very premise assumed/assumes the cultural & intellectual inferority of indigenous peoples. This was explicitly stated by imperialists the world over, but especially in British colonies such as the US, Australia, and various parts of Africa.
Calling someone a savage makes any attempted ‘compliment’ completely irrelevant.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I don't know
I kinda like it when my wife calls me a savage after a night of drunken love making.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Well
we did “win.” So there must be something to it. (I’m just being silly now)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
How about the Cleveland Indians!
A drunk Indian on their hats… Literally a f-ing slap in the face.
Well,
considering the source, the only thing I can say is I am not surprised…though I wonder: where are the hundreds of thousands of Native Americans that are presumably offended? At the local pub watching the game perhaps?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
The Padres should change their mascot
To a priest with his hands down a five year old boy’s pants.
Then the Vikings logo
could be changed to show a Viking slaying a Padre, which they pretty much did automatically back in the day.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I can only guess
at the lyrics their song contains….
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
"We want, if nothing else, for our football team to be warriors."
Then why not, you know… name them that.
Wouldn’t need to change the mascot.
Dude, come on.
There is a Profile of an American Indian on the helmet (I LOVE IT). THat argument about where the name came from can’t hold water with that. And the reason we love it, is because we were born with a jersey on our back. One of my first memories is Superbowl XVII and Riggins. Remember the Hogs? They were awesome! Indian warriors! We love them! Cowboys and indians!!!
Just playing Devil’s advocate here. As you can see I Love my Skins. I love the helmet. The Jerseys could use a tweak… Sometimes I do feel a little guilty about the name, though.
Oh really?
“I’m currently reading an excellent book by Tony Horwitz”
Well whoop a dee doo! Aren’t you smart?
“Now, maybe this is a mere technicality, but there is little evidence to support the notion that it was used as a derogatory term.”
Right, but you could say the same thing about the “C” from NAACP or the “N” from UNCF. Generally, a culture should be able to determine its own identifying language, and the rest of us, out of respect for that culture, should do our best to adopt that language. There might not be consensus among all Native Americans about whether the term “Redskin” is PERSONALLY offensive, but:
1. Native Americans generally do not self-identify as “Redskins.” AND:
2. “Redskin,” even in the context of Washington Redskins mascot usage, is primarily used as a blanket term for “Native American,” not as some more specific “only the tribes who participated in face-painting war customs, oh weren’t they courageous” term.
“(And we are not trying to perpetuate these negative connotations.)”
It’s not up to “us,” really.
“My ultimate point is that our Redskins tradition as a legacy, landmark franchise in the NFL, IMO, has NOTHING to do with a certain section of our population’s complexion (no matter how wrongfully Native Americans were treated otherwise). It is, however, indelibly linked with a common perception (also documented by Horwitz) by Europeans of the Noble Savage – that is a race of humans that are/were not corrupted by the many machinations (for lack of a good word) of European culture.”
Now it is my turn to split hairs: the term “noble savage” is paternalistic, condescending, and racist. If European culture is so great, why don’t we all just pat ourselves on the back for global warming, overpopulation, and the threat of world-ending nuclear war? Yes sir, listening to and respecting the opinions of Native Americans was wrong when we Europeans first met and it’s wrong now, apparently.
“Finally, I have to argue, what fan-base would choose as an iconic representation of the team they passionately follow some form or character that it felt had little or no redeeming value? To suggest a slanderous or pejorative term for their icon (mascot) would be counter intuitive to say the least.”
So your final argument is that “we call them ‘Redskins’ because we LOVE real life Redskins (I mean Native Americans), we think they’re so brave and great at fighting.” That’s also pretty condescending. If a significant portion of the Native American community is not happy with the name, and they ask for it to change, it should change. Of course it doesn’t HAVE to. Dan Snyder can tell all these people to get f*cked along with the rest of us fans as long as the name is legal and the franchise is profitable. But we all know that such behavior is shortsighted and frustrating, as the franchise holds a place in the community that is beyond any other business venture, and will do so for the forseeable future unless the UFL takes over during a prolonged 2011 lockout (in other words, unless pigs fly).
I know this is overdramatic and we’re talking about a football team, but if anybody wants it changed and has any kind of legitimate gripe about it, why not change it? It’s just football. It’s not worth being called a racist over, as I’m sure you’d agree after reading this post. But yeah, it’s not really our call. We’d have to really fight for a name change to happen at this point. I just think it’d be good karma, which is in pretty short supply in Landover these days.
Call them the Hogs. That’s a name with plenty of tradition behind it, too.
Redskins
To me the question I posed earlier about skin color just makes sense, it is however not the only reason AI object to the term “Redskin”. Mr Horwitz is right, in that it was not a term that considered the skin red, It refers to the color of an NDNs scalp. The term “Redskin” is especially harmful, consider it’s beginning; Back not so long ago, when there was a bounty on the heads of the Indian people…the trappers would bring in Indian scalps along with the other skins that they had managed to trap or shoot. These scalps brought varying prices as did the skins of the animals. The trappers would tell the trading post owner or whoever it was that he was dealing with, that he had 2 bearskins, a couple of beaver skins…and a few scalps. Well, the term “scalp” offended the good Christian women of the community and they asked that another term be found to describe these things. So, the trappers and hunters began using the term “redskin”…they would tell the owner that they had bearskin, deer skins….and “redskins.” The term came from the bloody mess that one saw when looking at the scalp…thus the term “red”…skin because it was the “skin” of an “animal” just like the others that they had…so, it became “redskins”. So, you see when NDS see or hear that term…they don’t see a football team…they don’t see a game being played…they don’t see any “honor”…they see the bloody pieces of scalps that were hacked off of the men, women and even the children…they hear the screams as their people were killed…and “skinned” just like animals. See proclamation below.
Proclamation issued in 1755
Given at the Council Chamber in Boston this third day of November 1755 in the twenty-ninth year of the Reign of our Sovereign Lord George the Second by the Grace of God of Great Britain, France, and Iceland, King Defender of the Faith.
By His Honour’s command
J. Willard, Secry.
God Save the King
Whereas the tribe of Penobscot Indians have repeatedly in a perfidious manner acted contrary to their solemn submission unto his Majesty long since made and frequently renewed.
I have therefore, at the desire of the House of Representatives … thought fit to issue this Proclamation and to declare the Penobscot Tribe of Indians to be enimies, rebels, and traitors to his Majesty. And I do hereby require his Majesty’s subjects of the Province to embrace all opportunities of pursuing, captivating, killing, and destroy all and every one of the aforesaid Indians.
And wereas the General Court of this Province have voted that a bounty…. be granted and allowed to be paid out of the Province Treasury…. The premiums of bounty following viz:
For every scalp of a male Indian brought in as evidence of their being killed as aforesaid, forty pounds. For every scalp of such female Indian or male Indian under the age of twelve years that shall be killed and brought in as evidence of their being killed as aforesaid, twenty pounds.
This is the history that is Redskins.
That's a pretty graphic description
and I am not going to refute the authenticity of your statements, especially as they are obviously well intended.
However, I don’t get the feeling that after several hundred years the term Redskin is perceived as graphically by the current Native American population. Scalp, yes. Redskin, not so much at all. Yes, there is probably truth in the origins of the term as you say. I simply question the extent of real harm done by it’s modern usage.
I suppose in the end it amounts to the levels of sensitivity on both sides of the coin. Are proponents of the Redskin football team insensitive? Or are a fairly small group of individual (some with private agendas) overly sensitive? That’s a tough one.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
exactly
in fact, I would argue that more people today associate the term with a sports team, and nothing else. Well, maybe potatoes. And, now that I think of it, it would seem that a lot of companies in Idaho would be pulling their stock off the shelves of grocery stores across the country if the name was considered too offensive.
I'm surprised
they didn’t pull their stock in protest to the way we played for the majority of the season. I’m sure they had customers in the aisles throwing up after witnessing the “Swing Gate” play against the Giants. Or curled up in the fetal position laughing.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Sam
He seems like a nice young man, you know. Hard to tell what he thinks of the “Redskin” controversy, but I’d guess that he doesn’t care about it at all, but doesn’t want to irritate some of the people who do care. Why pick a fight with any group? If he felt strongly about the name, I’d think he would have hinted that, to dissuade the Redskins from draftng him. So at this stage, it appears that he doesn’t want to slow us down – he still wants us to draft him. I wonder if any opponents would make stupid jokes about his heritage? I hope not. Personally, I like the idea of a real native American being QB of the Redskins. But none of that is important. All that counts is how good a quarterback he would be.
Interesting...
Skins fans on other sites kinda want Bradford…
http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?p=7274545#post7274545
"I am excited about starting 2009. We are looking forward to an outstanding year. We're on our way. We have a lot of healthy players this year." - Vinny Cerrato
Imagine if German Americans were called "Krauts"
Oh wait is used to happen to me all the time and I didn’t cry about it. It’s just a word, and a word that has no positive connotations but big deal, it’s still just a word, get over it.
happens to me when I roll past a Bojangles
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Is there a NFL team named "Krauts"
There is not a NFL named “Krauts”, imagine if there were. That is the whole point.
Wouldn't bother me a bit
Some people go through life looking to be offended and some look for easy money (lawsuits) and some people just move on to more productive things.
And by the way “Vikings” also has some negative connotations, at least as much as Redskins does.
I was about to say
many folks with a Scandinavian heritage aren’t necessarily thrilled with some pretty negative connotations surrounding the term “Viking.” It’s really the equivalent of another mascot – Raiders.
It’s looking like we need to discuss the whole phenomena of the origin and sustained use of mascots representing schools and sports organizations. What is the purpose and intent? What makes a good “mascot?”
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I think it's probably a good idea to just not refer to groups of humans when nicknaming teams.
Is it a federal crime? No.
Is it insulting to some, and a source of potential conflict? Yes.
There are a million (literally) things you could name a team, we should probably just avoid references to ethnic groups or human groups of any other kind.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I would agree 100% if I were
starting my own team or league. Why look for trouble? But we are also dealing with traditions dear to many people as well. What about their “rights?”
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
'rights' have nothing to do with this.
and that’s not the context of my comment directly above.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
The tradition is football, DC, Gibbs, burgundy and gold
The name really isn’t central.
My money would be on people getting over it pretty quickly.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Not me
I don’t think. And I’m just being honest here. My Dad had season ticks for the Hog Era. Really hard to get behind this change for very little gain at the cosmic level.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
For me it would be a shock at first
and then I’d get over it pretty quickly.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
It would have to be something
really, really cool for me to even get my head into it. And I’m just not sure – and maybe I’m a bit offended here – that I want to make that change just to satisfy a group of people that don’t know me and are at this moment probably making terrible assumptions about me and my lily white ass. Hows that for a conundrum?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
'so much to think about'
-Ron Burgundy
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
well, take THIS into account
unlike football decisions, a name, AND LOGO change would directly affect team marketing. And guess who makes those decisions? Yep, you got it. Lil’ Danny would be the sole decision maker of any name change.
Christ, we would be called the TomKats.
I'm thinking
The Washington Wallets
Alright, now. Everyone:
Hail to our Wallets
Hail, they’re empty
Used to buy tickets and amenities
Fleece us grease us kick us in the scrotum
Make us pay with every ounce of blood
Charge on, charge on ’til we are numb sons of Washington: Gasp, gasp, gasp!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Feb 4, 2010 3:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This SUCKS
Not the song. It’s great. I’m just pissed that you came up with it and I didn’t. There’s an outside chance you’re as funny as I am.
Yeeaaaahhhh....
sometimes the muses just speak to me, man. What can I say?
Sad thing is that I’m sober. God knows what would have come out with a 6-pack in me…LOL
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
all races are not treated equal
and certainly weren’t in the past.
I’m sure you know this.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
nope
and if we all hinge our lives on the past we’ll never get over it either.
jesus christ
THANK YOU!!
I can’t BELIEVE we’re still on this.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
good point - I'm done
There’s no help for people who want to feel trod upon.
learn from mistakes made in the past
don’t dwell on them
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
this is hardly 'living in the past'
it’s a simple name change b/c its origins are questionable and its use today is hardly central to enjoying the Washington football team.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
b/c its origins are questionable
You know what kind of trouble we’d be in if we changed up anything thats “origins are questionable?”
You know what I meant
I’ve outlined pretty specific criticism of naming teams after ethnic groups.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Look into European history
not just the last 1000 years and you’ll see they weren’t always the ones with the upper hand. Plus they mistreated each other frequently too. And the very Origin of the word German was a pejorative. Lots of Europeans were enslaved by the Romans and others.
But none of that happened to any of US and we don’t cringe every time the word is used.
If you were referred to as a "nazi", would that bother you?
As many Germans were also called. Not as easy to get over.
“Kraut” comes from sauerkraut, a German cuisine.
The land of the free, and the home of the easily offended...
Dear lord…how ridiculous. smutsboy, with all due respect, I assume that you are white, no? It is just typical that most folks making the biggest fuss about racial injustice are not even of the same race for which they are purportedly taking a stand…and I would bet that this situation is no different.
My family is all situated in northeast Tennessee and southwest Virginia. Are you cognizant of the stereotype that “my people” still endure in the media? Redneck, hillbilly, cracker, inbred, white trash, et al. Combine us with most all white Southern people (especially those in Mississippi and Alabama), and you have the single ethnic group toward which politically incorrect statements – and not just in colloquial language, but throughout the media and popular culture, mind you – are still overwhelmingly tolerated.
But, you know, I am not losing any sleep over it. If somebody thinks that my family or myself are backwoods hicks, then that’s fine. Screw ‘em; as long as they are not causing physical harm to me, then who am I to judge or take action against their personal prejudices, no matter how “offensive” the language. And don’t give me the “all races haven’t been treated equally” crap. Laws are in place to prevent true racial prejudice, and if you know anything about MLK, Jr., then you know that if he were alive today, then he would be extremely disappointed that we are still having these “racial disparity” conversations about attitudes that only exist within an extreme few in our society.
Bottom line…you would be hard-pressed to find a single Redskins fan who holds a malicious view toward American Indians, or who view the historical term “Redskins” as anything but an honorable recognition of a truly noble people. Even futher, my wife is a Florida State University graduate; go to Tallahassee sometime, and you will see true pride in and backing for FSU athletics by the Seminole tribes, who understand and respect the honor that the university brings to its people.
by Dixie's Football Pride on Feb 4, 2010 12:30 PM EST via mobile reply actions
That pretty much
finishes this conversation as far a I’m concerned. Nothing more needs saying, except HTTR!!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
you're exaggerating my 'fuss' and level of being upset to undermine this POV
A name change won’t effect anyone’s game day experience in the slightest.
I simply think it’s the right thing to do.
Keep the colors. Keep playing football in and around the city of DC. And nothing else is really important, so do the right thing.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
what happens to our song?
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
We're smart people. I bet we could come up with new lyrics to the same music.
A long time ago we took out the words, “Fight for old Dixie”, I bet we could do it again.
It’s having a band and a fight song that matters, not the words themselves.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Besides, how many lines in the song reference native american stuff?
2?
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
the two main parts of the song, yes
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
braves on the warpath?
that’s not an irreplaceable part.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Check out my above post
with the new words in support of Our Wahington Wallets.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
says you
there are thousands of people that sing that song with pride, and have been for decades.
I’m not entirely sure fans of this team that have been around since that song has would take that as not altering their game day experience should they need to sing a different song than the one they fell in love with.
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
a minor inconvenience at worst
and not a different song, just a few different words
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
::shrug::
may seem minor to you, might not be for others
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Yup. Anything's possible.
But in all likelihood, most people won’t have their fan experience dramatically altered by changing 10 words in the same exact song.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I don't wanna offend you
but my question to you is, if this name IS so offensive, than why would you root for this team in the first place. They have held the moniker for your entire lifetime, and you call them your favorite team (I think). So it doesn’t make much sense to me that you would be offended by their name, yet still associate yourself with them.
it's a good question
a) I’m not principled enough to quit my team over it
b) I don’t find it THAAAAAT offensive, I just think it should be changed
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Also, less than half the people even know all the words
you ever sit in the stadium and listen to people mumble through the ‘beat em swamp em’ part?
I have.
The lyrics simply aren’t that sacred. The music, band and tradition of singing together as one is.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
We at my wateringhole
already changed a few words – specifically the beat ’em swamp ’em part.
We do:
Romp ’em stomp ’em kick ’em in the scrotum
Make them pay with every ounce of blood
Fight on, fight on for you have won sons of Washington!
What’s not to like about that?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I presume no "scrota" were offended
by my last post? :)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
nova scrotia
where Cindy Crosby’s from
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
You wouldn't be offending
an entire Maritime Province, would you? Or the City of Pittsburgh?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
And therein lies the point...
Where does the level of “offending” stop? What’s next – PETA stepping in to defend offensive depictions of animals?
This is a nasty Pandora’s box that needn’t be opened…because it just isn’t that big of a freakin’ deal. American Indian tribes aren’t marching on Washington about this; shoot, most of them still refer to themselves as “Indians”, but in listening to those riddled with an extreme feeling of white guilt, one would think that not using the term “Native American” is a crime worthy of death. Even the silly NCAA ban on Indian names and Ole Miss’ Colonel Reb was only perpetuated by a few guilt-ridden do-gooders; there was no outcry for those actions.
All of this stems from a handful of nutjobs, trying to stir the race pot for either morbid enjoyment or a sense of need for a cause, because they apparently have nothing else in this cruel world – full of real and legitimate turmoils – to worry about, other than the name of a professional football team. I wish I had the time and energy to spend on such meaningless crusades…which, yes – in this case, the change of which would eliminate the decades of tradition, honor, and identity from being enjoyed by future generations of Redskins fans.
by Dixie's Football Pride on Feb 4, 2010 3:07 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm not a nutjob and I'm not crusading
The right thing to do is change it.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
it's a slippery slope my friend
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
I'm not calling you a nutjob...
…but rather, those who initiate these silly causes. A lemming – maybe…but not a nutjob. I frequently enjoy your posts, sir.
But please tell us – why is it the “right thing to do”? Bowing to an “offended” minority of folks who feel the way that you do (the number of which, most often, does not include a substantial amount of people of the race that said element supposedly “offends”) on this subject sounds like the antithesis of “the right thing”. And continued examples of exploiting fanciful notions of racism – when again, you will find it nearly impossible to find a Redskins fan with ill will toward American Indians – are the major reasons that overall harmony does not exist among the races in our country.
by Dixie's Football Pride on Feb 4, 2010 3:28 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
As a nod to our ugly past
and a general aversion to the idea of nicknaming teams after ethnic groups or groups of any kind.
Especially oppressed minorities.
Caricatures of ‘otherness’ and undermining the worth of other ethnic groups while seemingly insignificant today, is actually a huge cultural and historical force.
Just b/c many Native Americans have more important things to worry about, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t change it.
The underpinning of my argument is that a team’s name just isn’t that significant, so since this is offensive to some, and is originally rooted in an ugly past, we should just change it.
It’s easy. It’s insignificant. It’s the right thing to do.
…are the major reasons that overall harmony does not exist among the races in our country.
Without getting into a Great Race Debate, I strongly disagree with this.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
I will agree...
…that if any single group in this country is owed anything, it is the various tribes of American Indians. In the way that racial equality for life opportunities was achieved, legally, for everyone through legislation, the Indians will still never get their land back.
However, your logic still holds nothing of substance. Please consider the following:
1) An overwhelming majority of Indians celebrate – rather than abhor – this sort of imagery and nomenclature.
2) There is no factual evidence that the Redskins moniker was originally given with malicious, racist intent.
3) There is no evidence that Redskins fans are malicious or racist in their use or celebration of the moniker.
4) There is no compelling legality that requires changing the name. (Because of this, even if the first three were false, the 1st Amendment protects the Redskins trademark. But I digress.)
So where is the issue…other than somebody having nothing more important to worry about? You still haven’t made clear why your OPINION of the “right thing to do” is correct. I feel that leaving it the @!?#* alone is the “right thing to do”. So who is correct? In terms of the law and deductive reasoning – the only things that truly matter – well, you tell me who’s got the “right” idea.
And yeah – without getting into the “Great Race Debate”, the continual declaring that the “right thing to do” is kowtowing to any offended party, and that anyone else is an insensitive bigot…buddy, that’s EXACTLY why the race pot is still boiling.
by Dixie's Football Pride on Feb 4, 2010 5:39 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
kowtowing to any offended party
That’s not what this is at all. THIS name and THIS issue is specific and legitimate. Clearly you disagree.
…and that anyone else is an insensitive bigot
Don’t put words in my mouth. Yet again you’re peppering in your fear of a political correctness boogeyman, which only distracts from this specific issue at hand.
However, your logic still holds nothing of substance.
No, it actually does, you just don’t agree with it. Very important distinction.
In case you missed it:
Caricatures of ‘otherness’ and undermining the worth of other ethnic groups while seemingly insignificant today, is actually a huge cultural and historical force.
Just b/c many Native Americans have more important things to worry about, doesn’t mean we shouldn’t change it.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
Clearly we do not agree, in terms of moral beliefs for what should and should not be used for team monikers.
But your personal belief of the “right thing to do” comes across as a holier-than-thou statement of elitism. Am I simply wrong, in your opinion, because I do not see a problem with the name? According to your argument, anything besides changing the name is NOT the “right thing to do”. But in a legal sense, and in the overwhelming majority of public opinion, there is NOTHING that compels your view as the be all, end all…it is only YOUR opinion, and that of a small minority. Therefore, we should leave it the @#/?! alone.
Unfortunately, it is such views that have historically created said politically correct monster, and have shamed others into kowtowing for fear of legalized slander from “offended” parties. Here’s to Mr. Snyder to have the testicular fortitude to never bend to such an absurd request.
by Dixie's Football Pride on Feb 5, 2010 12:19 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Yup. I'm arguing my opinion. As are you.
Here’s mine:
Caricatures of ‘otherness’ and undermining the worth of other ethnic groups while seemingly insignificant today, is actually a huge cultural and historical force that should be avoided whenever possible.
And it is certainly possible here.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
There's that "should" again...
And again, it smacks of an “if you don’t agree with me, you’re wrong” attitude, even without tangible justification that your point is “right”.
We’ve beaten this dead horse enough. You have a problem with the nomenclature, most don’t…including myself. The team will always have the heritage of and will always be the Washington REDSKINS, no matter whether political correctness prevails or not (hopefully it never will).
Either way, we love our ’Skins, in good times and bad. Hail To The Redskins…and cheers, smutsboy. Good debating with you.
by Dixie's Football Pride on Feb 5, 2010 7:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
End of day...
It is a controversy. It makes people talk passionately about our team. Now if that could only happen in February with our season still alive….
I'm sure it will come up
and be an issue the next time we go to the SuperBowl.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I hope so.
It is a fun debate on both sides!
Until there is more to be passionate about on the field...
…nothing riles me up, personally, as the absurd notion that our beloved Redskins’ traditions are offensive.
by Dixie's Football Pride on Feb 4, 2010 4:00 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
a bit of irony
This debate started because Bradford is a “registered Native American.” He has also been called Cherokee Sam. He is from Oklahoma, which is known for it’s Native American heritage. So, ya know what the top high school football team in Oklahoma is?
How abut that...
As with the Seminole tribes and Florida State University – who apparently have no problem with the, dare I say it, seemingly “offensive” Tomahawk Chop – American Indians, in an overwhelming majority, have no problem with such recognitions.
Point made.
by Dixie's Football Pride on Feb 4, 2010 3:36 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I am offended...
…by people who are compulsively offended.
But I will still never demand that they change or keep their views to themselves, just because I am offended.
by Dixie's Football Pride on Feb 4, 2010 4:02 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
With so much offensiveness just on this one post
it’s a wonder we only manage to score 16.8 pts/game last season.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Sam Bradford and the Reskins!
He would not be offended by the name Redskin. My son went to school (Putnam City North High School) with him. He said he is sure he would love to play for and be called a REDSKIN.
Did the Patriots get caught cheating again?
ESPN made a big deal out of the Redskin Name a couple of years ago the day Belicheck was nailed to the wall..so they didn’t have to dwell on the cam scandal
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