Draft Day needs: Offensive linemen and Game Changers ...
by LETJASONPASS on Jan 4, 2010 3:19 PM EST
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I am sticking with my Jason Campbell will be a top ten qb if he "only had this" theme of course. If I said anything else what would you guys think of me? I am going to discuss why we have so much trouble winning games and making 4th quarter comebacks. The real difference between the redskins and the other teams in the NFC besides our sorry Offensive line is "GAME CHANGERS". We do not have any game changers IE Desean Jackson, Felix Jones, Miles Austin, Jeremy Maclin, Tashard Choice, Adrian Peterson, Percy Harvin, Piere Thomas, Reggie Bush, Devery Henderson, Michael Turner, Deanagelo Williams, Johnathan Stewart, Steve Smith etc etc. maybe some of you have not noticed this but the overwhelming majority of good teams have at least one game changer.
Ok , before some of you start saying that we have game changers. Please look at who is on my list and who I have left off. A Game Changer is someone that can score from anywhere on the field at any moment. This is a running back that can take a hand off or a screen pass and run 40 yards or more without getting ran down. This is a receiver that can catch a short pass and make people miss or break tackles and out run everyone to the endzone.
Maybe I am wrong and we do have some fast guys that can take the ball to the endzone at any time from anywhere on the field. If anybody can point that player out to me let me know. ( Devin Thomas is the closest thing we have to one)
My point in all of this is without addressing our need for offensive lineman as well as game changers it does not matter if we draft a first round QB. We will still have receivers getting ran down from behind by linebackers like Moss did last week. We will also continue to see our running backs hit a hole and think "if he was only a little faster it might have been a TD."
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We need a lot of things
Game changing Free Safety as well.
RB for sure.
LT, RT, RG
Corner to replace Carlos Rogers.
Bruce and Shanny have a tall task…especially since the SKins have no 3rd or 6th round picks.
"It was one of those things where everyone in the building was suddenly excited again," Cerrato said. "And all the women in the building were the most excited. They couldn't believe we were getting the guy from "Dancing With the Stars."
I know it's just semantics
but I want to point out that we “technically” had a 3rd round pick and used it on a seemingly talented player in Jarmon.
For some reason whenever I hear people say we don’t have a 3rd picks it makes me think that we traded it away in one of our classic Cerrato moments.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
take out "seemingly" talented player
he looks legit the times he’s been in there, and I believe we got a very good pick up at a bargain price.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
Agreed....
I’d imagine the training staff gets the boot after all the injuries these past few years. It can’t be a coincidence.
They did the right think lowering Kelly’s weight to make it easier for his knees…sounds like the rest of the team could have used it too.
"It was one of those things where everyone in the building was suddenly excited again," Cerrato said. "And all the women in the building were the most excited. They couldn't believe we were getting the guy from "Dancing With the Stars."
Part of it is old age...
we also most likely don’t condition or drill for “tackle whiffs.”
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
LB too
this looks like it is going to take at least two drafts…too many needs. We also need to draft a QB at some point…did you see JC throw that last Hail Mary pass 10 yards out of bounds?
Looks like this will take more than one draft to me
Because there is no CBA agreement, it seems that free agency won’t be as exciting as it was in years past. The talent level on the free agent market just won’t be what it used to be. We can’t rush to fix this problematic Offensive Line. Building a dominant Offensive Line takes more than one year. We need the dedication.
The plan should be something like:
Sign Ben Hamilton RG (UFA)
Move Levi Jones to RT
Draft LT (1st Round)
Draft RB (2nd Round)
Draft RG (4th Round)
Draft FS (5th Round)
Later Rounds- Draft the best available player
Move Fred Smoot to FS (this is just a transition move till a better prospect devolps)
Then the next year, continue to draft Offensive Lineman in the first 2 rounds.
More than one draft!
I agree with the time line to rebuild the OL. However, Ben Hamilton (RG) may have declined too much (started 7 of 14 games). Stephen Neal (G 11,GS 11) or Eugene Amano (G 15,GS 14 ) maybe better options. Just using Scouts Inc grades in the 2009 draft as well as the games played and games started shows that 1st round picks are not guaranteed. The two picks (Smiths, grades 97; 95 respectively) played 14 games and started 6. Second round picks Beatty and Vollmer played about as much individually. Yet the 3rd though 10th OL picked each played more the Smiths. Things tend to settle down for OL picks by their 2nd year.
Levi Jones was picky about the situations he would play in for 2009 and may not be willing to play the RT position. The Skins will need 9 or 10 OL for the 2010 roster.
Rich Tandler assigned Above replacement to Samuels (who is not likely to return).
http://realredskins.com/2009/10/the-talent-imbalance/, Replacement: Dockery and Rabach,
and Below replacement: ( Rinehart, Heyer, M. Williams to OL on the roster on Oct. 15. On 12/20, he gave some opinions on the offensive linemen’s chances of returning -
http://www.csnwashington.com/12/09/09/Redskins-Roster-2010—The-Offensive-Line/landing_redskins.html?blockID=101159&feedID=272
by Jefferson1935 on Jan 5, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions
JC needs to stay, but we need to invest a pick in a later rd QB
wheather that pick is a 2nd, 4th, 5th or 7th. The idea that we could have a shot at Okung is too inticing to pass up. I have been one to say we would have no shot at Okung, but with some of the recent victories of certain teams, coupled with our loses, this could become a reality. FWIW, I believe Okung is the only lineman worth picking at 4 or 5.
If Colt McCoy(and I have not been a fan of his) lasts to the second RD for some reason, and he is on the board when we pick, we would be stupid not to draft him.
See LJP, i’m not so myopic after all.
God how I would love to have CJ Spiller
but our needs on the OL are too great to ignore, and we would certainly have to take Spiller with our 1st round pick to have a shot at him. I expect him to run in the mid 4.3’s at the combine. Both he and teamate Jacoby Ford ran a redicilous 100m indoor time in the spring. Kid is a game changer.
Could we get by with
Spiller in 1st round
All linemen in all other picks
UFAs of opportunity the rest of the way
Or do we stick w/Portis instead of Spiller…just thinking out loud (I’ve already posted many times why I don’t like CP anymore.)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
I don't think so
not too many Decade LTs in the later rounds I think (could be wrong).
I think everyone agrees we can get good talent at RB in the later rounds, and if Shanny can’t get Alridge to fix his fumbilitis no one else will.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
But with Juniors coming out
there might be a flood of really good OLs that together make a great line – esp. since Shanny doesn’t go for the physically overwhelming – just real athletic guys. I’m just thinking outloud about how we can do the most we can for the team this off season. So we get an A- grade for Oline instead of A+, but get Spiller who could be a difference maker on any play (as LJP likes to say). That could be a net gain. All kinds of ways to go considering uncapped season, etc.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
The kid Davis out of Rutgers
looks athletic at LT from what I’ve seen of him. Showed him pulling on sweeps and getting to the 2nd level on screen passes.
re Spiller....
wouldn’t it be great if another coach like Ditka came along and wanted Spiller that bad? Remember Ditka traded all his picks to us so he could draft Ricky Williams.
That should serve as a reminder to everyone that you don’t build a team around one player, ever.
The world looks mighty different when you're peeking out your belly button
by Skins Fan '77 on Jan 5, 2010 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
Forget about
a high round RB pick. Shanahan won’t do it. And hopefully he won’t pick a safety either. That’s one position we can fill in free agency, if need be. Again, I said IF. Remember, right now we have 3 safeties, under contract, who have started significant amounts of time for us.
by CJHutch on Jan 4, 2010 7:25 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
The whole thing is so fluid
This CBA could really complicate things, Allen and Shanahan are going to be pulling their hairs out. They have an open check book of Dan the Man’s money, and no where to spend it. Free Agents are going to be locked out. Shanahans history shows that he is a draft day dealer, and a big trader in the market. Someone had mentioned here earlier and I agree, there could be a ton of trades. This looks like be a fire sale! Maybe we will load up on draft picks. I can’t see the Shanny’s coming in with this roster, I see at least 20 guys gone.
I could see us
unloading some guys, but not a firesale. Not with Shanahan. Brian Mitchell said earlier on Comcast, and I agree with him, that Shanahan isn’t coming in here for a major rebuilding project. He’s gonna wanna win sooner rather than later. Of course, the best way to do that is by building a dominant defense. I think it takes longer to build a dominant offense. Luckily our best players are on the defensive side of the ball. Now we have to see how the new D-coordinator uses them.
BTW – Would anyone else love to be a fly on the wall when Allen and Shanahan get together, by themselves, and talk about the franchise? I think it’ll start out with a LOT of laughing (3 receivers in the second round with the O-line cupboard bare? -HA HA HA) then a LOT MORE crying (Man, the O-line cupboard is REALLY BARE.)
by CJHutch on Jan 5, 2010 1:38 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I wonder if they will joke with one another
“Bruce quit being such a Cerrato” “Who is my GM here, Bruce Cerrato?” or
“Quit Zorning around here Shanny and score some points!”
Zimmer,
quit Blacheing about and tell your guys to rush the QB! It’s called a BLITZ. Now do it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
We don't have game changers
not even at QB.
Bwahahahaha, you pointed out the exact flaw with your own argument about JCs greatness.
He’s good but he’s not a game changer.
Some QBs you build a team around, guys like Montanna, Favre, Marino and the other great QBs.
Other QBs you use within their abilities, guys like Rypien, and Phil Simms. They aren’t great but they’re good enough if you have good talent eberywhere else. JC fits into this category. Sadly there isn’t much talent to go around him as Cooley has been the only consistent receiving threat. And we all know the OL is awful.
So to me the question is “can we rebuild the surrounding talent while JC is still young and healthy enough to be effective?”
I wish I knew the answer.
What I do know is that we don’t have a better option at QB because none of the college QBs look like a great QB and at least JC has shown he isn’t awful.
So in the end I can live with your plan, so long as the OL is the top priority.
Learn how to read I never said Jason was or would be a Peyton but I did say he would be a top ten QB look at his stats this year.
He is not far off from being one with just a little help from his team. Next tome go back and read my posts. I have never said that he is great like Peyton but he is good.
For anybody that doubts what I am saying GO TO NFL.COM AND LOOK AT HIS STATS FOR THIS YEAR….. they are pretty amazing given the lack of talent that surrounds him.
by LETJASONPASS on Jan 5, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
That doesn't mean
he should be the core of the team. The beauty of building a team on a good OL and a good defense is that you don’t have to have a great QB. Odss are, you’re not going to have a great QB as most teams don’t.
As far as stats go, they only tell part of the tale. How’s this JC stat? 4-12. That’s the stat that really matters.
So when it comes to JC, he might be worth building around if he can get over the pounding he took this year, step up his game a bit (admitedly with help) and if he will sign for a reasonable amount of money.
I do think drafting a QB in the first round would be utterly stupid as non of the ones coming out look like they have more (or even as much) talent as JC.
Rak is a gamechanger
at Defensive End.
Would you girls just kiss and get it the f**k over with? Jesus Christ. Don’t you realize you’re playing tug of war with a rope that’s tied down in the middle? Either you’re both right, or you’re both wrong. Jason Campbell neither a great QB or a terrible QB. He is literally right in the middle of nearly every category there is, except wins. Some of those wins are because of him, and some aren’t . Just like some of the non-wins are his fault, and some aren’t. He is good enough to have finished over Carson Palmer (who most will say is a very good QB) in almost every category there is. But he is not good enough to have cemented his spot on this team.
Bottom line, there is no clear cut right or wrong in this argument, so put down the rope and give each other a hug.
CJ, the only point that I am making which is a valid one is that if Jason has these numbers behind this o-line in this offense. Why is it hard to imagine that he
would pass for over 4,000 yards and 30 td’s. He had 3,618 yards this year. That is great given we do not have any game changers at our skill positions.
Look at TOM BRADY he has a/ QB rating of / 102.9 with WES WELKER PLAYING
68.9 without WES WELKER PLAYING
MY point exactly having game changers makes or breaks the QB not the other way around .
Prime example is Matt Cassell he went from the # 10 position with a QB rating of 89.4 to
# 20 position with a QB rating of 69.9
The difference between last year and this year for Matt Cassell is “game changers.” He is on a team with next to nothing at receiver.
Hey, CJ I know you guys like stats so I am giving them to you. LOL
Could it be
Redskins have game changers but could not use them because of the line and the Head coach….Hmmmm
Could be, I was hoping Anthony Alridge was going to be one. We need a speed guy at RB and receiver at least one or two at each position.
We need our own Felix Jones/ Miles Austin or Leshawn Mccoy/ Desean Jackson.
for the most part
I agree – Campbell’s numbers COULD be better with a better O-line. But that doesn’t mean they WOULD be better. And as far as “game changers”, I think Moss is one of the best in the league when given the opportunity. Sure, the coaching staff didn’t give that to him. But there were also plenty of times Campbell just didn’t get him the ball.
The Team has more to do with making the quarterback than the quarterback does making the team.
If you don’t believe me ask Two of the top QB’s from last year Matt Cassell or Jay Cutler. Two studs last year and duds this year due to changing teams and having less talent around them.
CJ // Does anyone use any logic at all on here?? How can you say with a better O-line a QB would not have better numbers ?
He passed for 3,618 and spent alot of his time on his back or being hit soon as he threw the ball. Sometimes I feel like I am talking to drunk people because this is just stupid. Go look at his numbers on NFL.com and compare them to the other QB’s then make a real judgement not just some BS group think crap. Hey try and use some logic.
By the way Moss is not even our best Wide Receiver Devin thomas is maybe you did not notice but before Devin got hurt we ran our passing plays through him not Sanatana Moss. Alot of the plays that once went to Moss now went to Devin Thomas. At this point Devin is faster than Moss alot stronger, bigger and way more physical. Moss should be moved to the slot if he will make the move.
I didn't say
a QB WOULDN’T have better numbers. I think he would. But that’s all you can do is guess. Aaron Rogers’ and Big Ben both had better numbers than Campbell, yet both were sacked more than Campbell.
As for Moss, I don’t know if he has lost a step or not. I know I still hold my breath when he gets the ball in space. The problem is, that hasn’t happened much over the past 2 years. Yes, he should be moved to the slot, but that is not a knock on him. It’s just the best place to use him. And yes, I do think Thomas WILL BE our best receiver. But how about letting him do it for an entire season before you anoint him. Moss has been the only thing we’ve had going for us at receiver for the last 5 years. It will take more than a few games of solid production to knock him off that pedestal for me. Just like the Davis-Cooley argument. Do I THINK Thomas will be our stud receiver next year? Absolutely. But he still has to go out and do it.
This has already been discussed on ESPN and other places. Ben holds the ball longer than Campbell that is his style of play. While Aaron is slower and like I said before he only has two top tier receivers that break tackles and can take a quick slant
to the endzone running by people and through arm tackles.(Driver ,Jennings) Can Santana Moss do this ?(No)
the failure in your logic
is that there is another QB operating behind a worse OL who has better numbers, yerah, Aaron Rogers. Rogers is a great QB who makes plays, not excuses. JC is a good QB (and worth keeping) but not a great QB. Using your own terms, Rogers is a game changer while JC is not.
So the smart thing to do is a build a team with a good OL and a good defense and use whatever QB gives us the best chance to win. Right now that’s JC. In a few years it might be someone else.
Aarons line is not as bad as ours by no means. Does he have to stud wide receivers that are hard to cover ? (Yes he does)
Wrong game changers or either receivers or running backs go read again. send Aaron Rodgers to Kansas City and he would be Matt Cassell part 2. LOL When will you guys get it football is a team sport.
I hate
to continue to make arguments AGAINST Campbell, because I think we should keep him. But saying that Rogers had “two stud receivers” is not a faulty argument. He still gets it to those receivers. And to say that Ben “holds it longer” than JC, so what. He still gets sacked. Are you saying that if JC held it longer he WOULDN’T get sacked? I just don’t understand your logic there. Ben holds the ball longer because he has the confidence in his ability to make the play. Especially with the game on the line. Again, I hate to pick on Campbell, but he has yet to prove he can make the play with the game on the line. If anything, he’s proven more times that he can’t.
your selective stats
don’t reflect the truth. Brady has been a game changer with or without Welker. In 2004 Brady had a 92 QB rating with terrible receivers and I mean guys who wouldn’t start on our current team. Oh, the WRs have decent stats because of Brady but whenever they left and went somewhere else they were a total flop.
Having good players at other positions does help but it doesn’t mean a QB can’t be a game changer themselves.
LOL That is hillarious his receivers were not that bad and he always had plenty of time to throw the ball.
It is easy to have a good QB rating if yiu never get hit.. Can you compare apples to apples not apples to oranges.
Oh by the way jasons QB rating this year was 86.4 behind this O-line. LOL
no apples or oranges
just QBs without excuses.
Yes JC would be better behind a better OL. He’d be a better mediocre QB but still not a game changer.
JC is mediocre - I agree
but as you can see LJP has the biggest set of blinders ever made when it comes to JC.
A franchise builds a team around a franchise QB.
A franchise with a mediocre QB builds around a OL & defense so they can get by with the QB they have while looking for a franchise QB.
I’m all for keeping JC until something better comes along but I wouldn’t build the team around him.
JC haters have blinders on not me look at yourself. You can not wait to post something negative about JC 17. LOL
Go look at his stats for this year behind this line that says it all.
admitting the truth
isn’t negative. Everyone replying wants to keep JC, they just realize he isn’t a great QB.
You are delusional.
You are delusional. I have never posted that Jason was a great QB. LOL
What in the he__ or you talking about. But with the normal pieces that any QB should expect he is a good one.
both
it IS a stat for JC as well.
Again with the excuses, as per normal.
I am not worried about Qb anymore
That will be the Irish Lads top priority once the staff is assembled. I have total confidence that they will do what is best for the organization. Whatever they decide is A- OK with me. Give me a championship or 3, and Mickey Mouse could be the QB.
Rekka, Read my comments above to CJ, about Tom Brady, Matt Cassell and how QB sucess has a direct relatioship
to having game changers.
Welker is counter to your game changer point?
A Game Changer is someone that can score from anywhere on the field at any moment. This is a running back that can take a hand off or a screen pass and run 40 yards or more without getting ran down. This is a receiver that can catch a short pass and make people miss or break tackles and out run everyone to the endzone.
You want us to read the stats on Welker, showing how he is a game changer but he cannot make people miss, he cannot score from anywhere on the field at any moment By your own definition he is not a game changer.
Welker is a player who makes those around him better, like Brady and others…Campbell has not shown the ability to make those around him better…Hopefully he will be the 2010 QB in Washington but he is what he is…
welker cant make people miss
Cmon man have u watched him play, the man is uncheckable. But its easier for him because Randy Moss will slaughter a defense if he is in a one on one situation.
Wrong Welker makes everyone miss.
Your problem is you just don’t get it who is our Wes Welker ? (Randle el) LOL My point all season long is that jason needs help. You give me the same BS arguements. Since you like stats so much let me give you some.
Tom Brady ///// QB rating is 102.9 with Wes Welker
QB rating 68.9 without Wes Welker playing
So I guess when Welker is not playing Tom Brady is a bottom of the league QB?
So , Is Tom Brady making Wes Welker better or is it the other way around.
According to you Tom Brady is making everyone else better I can not tell by this stat.
The stats that I just showed you show just how stupid your comments about Jason Campbell really are.
The arguements that some of you guys have are so dumb it is pathetic.
WNC. I know you like stats so much let me give you some more.
Matt Cassell 2008 QB rating 89.4
2009 QB rating 69.9
Can you tell me ole (old) wise one? Is Matt Cassell a different QB this year or is it that he has less talent around him. IE NO Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Kevin Faulk .
My point exactly the weapons around a QB is what makes a average QB look good and a good QB look great.
yes but Cassel is also mediocre
just like JC. He’s not a great QB either. I wouldn’t build a team around him either. Aaron Rogers is another story, terrible line (sacked more than Cassel or JC this year), and mediocre WRs yet he’s still a game changer. Cassel and JC are good QBs but not game changers.
Afan ? What Aaron Rodgers has mediocre receivers?LOL Have you watched any Packer games ?
Donald Driver has had over 1,000 yards for 7 out of the past 8 years.
Greg Jennings has gone over 1,000 yards 2 out of 3 years.The year he did not catch over 1,000 yards he caught 920 yds worth. By the way he missed some games in that year.
So according to the stats neither one of them is average. LOL
This does not even include Jermichael Finley the super Stud tight End
I do watch GB games
I’m stuck in the great plains so they ram the Packers, Vikings, Bears and Broncos down our throats all the time. Driver has good stats because of the QBs he’s worked with, not because he’s all that good. Have you ever heard of Favre…future hall of fame QB guarenteed? Rogers who has outperformed your beloved JC while playing behind a worse OL?
So you think QBs can benefit from good WRs but the reverse isn’t true? If so you are absurd.
Our receivers would look good playing with those 2 QBs but that’s because those are 2 great QBs, not mediocre QBs.
Oh my! you need to read...
I said Welker made Brady and Cassell better because he was a player.
By your own words, a game changer is some one who can score from anywhere on the field, Welker cannot do that as he cannot out run anyone, so by your own words he is not a Game Changer.
The same argument you use to say JC is so good, you discount that he has no good players around him as being the reason, even though you admit that it could be the reason. You defend JC for no reason other to defend him, I’ve never said JC was not a good QB or should(n’t) be the Redskins QB. My only statement:
JC has never taken the ball and WON the game—> which does not mean he lost the game it is a team sport, but QBs are rated on their ability to lead a winning drive at the end of a game. JC has not done that!
I have posted Tom Brady's Stats with and without Wes Welker you still don't get it.
According to Brady’s stats his performance drops from 102.9 qb rating to 68.9 qb rating without Welker.
Tom Brady is such a great QB then why does his performance drop off when Eldeiman takes Welkers spot? BECAUSE WES WELKER IS a “player” as you put it. This is my point we need PLAYERS TO STEP UP LIKE DEVIN THOMAS was doing !!!
What in the hell or you a dr of because it is not commonsense.
My point in all of this is that a player/ game changer is more important to the QB than the other way around. If this were not the case then Eldeiman could come in and Brady’s numbers would stay the same.
Look at Matt Cassell QB rating 89.4 with players/ game changers last year to a qb rating of 69.9 this year.
So since you are all in to stats lets look at what Tom Bradys numbers with the Cheifs would be.
Matt Cassell has had a drop off in his Qb rating of 19.5 since last year and of course he had Welker and Moss iE (same studs as Brady)
Tom Brady has a Qb rating of 102.9 with Welker and Moss subtract the 19.5 difference for becoming a Chief and losing Moss and Welker.
WOW, TOM BRADY WOULD HAVE //////
A QB RATING OF ONLY /// 83.40
This is interesting since JASON CAMPBELL’S QB rating is ///// 86.4
LOL Just the facts (stats) … ????
Just don't put Minnie Mouse
on the cheerleader squad. That’s the one thing Snyder didn’t F-up. Actually, really improved on.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
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