Is Jason Campbell really the problem? More importantly, is a replacement really the solution?
by Alex on Jan 15, 2010 5:44 PM EST
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Pardon my ignorance, as I'm very new to learning the ins and outs of the Washington Redskins, but it seems as if the past regime in Washington tried to get rid of Campbell every chance they got. But why? And why on earth is nearly every mock draft showing the Skins taking a QB at #4?
As I see it, from a purely statistical point of view, JC has markedly improved every year. Every single year his QB Rating, completion percentage, TD's, and yards per attempt have gone up. Yet, his sacks have also gone up each year (43 times last year!), and he fumbled the ball 13 times in two of the last three season.
Again, I'm not as well versed in all things Redskins as you folks probably are, but those numbers seem to point out two things to me, (a) JC is consistently evolving, while (b) the offensive line is consistently devolving.
Washington ranked eighth in the running game during the 2008 season, then a horrible 27th this this season. Granted Clinton Portis was perpetually injured this season, but when the O'Line allows the fifth most sacks in the NFL, while opening running lanes for a measly 94 yards per game... well, something stinks. And methinks it's not necessarily Jason Campbell.
So why not take a QB in round one? Well, because that's neither where the problem lies, nor where the most improvement can be achieved. A better O' Line immediately makes the QB better, while a rookie QB with the same under-acheiving line... well, that's just an accident waiting to happen.
With improvement to the offensive line, everything gets better. First, the running game gets better, which keeps the opposing defenses honest and stops them from cheating back against the pass on every down. That in turn, helps TOP and keeps the defense off the field, thereby allowing less points. A better line gives Campbell more time to throw, and less time on his back. Thirteen fumbles is insane, but he won't keep that up if he's not constantly blindsided.
Now I realize many of you are likely to tell me about how the reason JC takes so many sacks is because he' slow on his feet and slow to act. OK. But the point is this, Campbell is getting better every year. He's pretty much the only thing the Skins have going that has shown consistent improvement. They say don't fix it if it's not broken, but I instead ask you this: Why 'fix' the only working clock in the house?
Do the Redskins need a new QB? Perhaps. But this year? In the first round? I think not. And I think it's just not in the cards. There's a new sheriff in town. Mike Shanahan is a very good QB coach, and he should be given a chance to further develop JC. Well and it's not like a rookie would start over JC this year anyway.
Shanny's not afraid to take a QB in the first-round, but you should also realize that he's only done it once out of all those years he was searching for Elway's replacement. And in this specific case of the 2010 season, there are simply more important positions to draft at #4. Coach Shanahan and assistant Bobby Turner are going to bring in their own zone-blocking scheme. So IMO it's much more likely that Mike begins to shore up the O' Line while giving Campbell a chance to develop under his tutelage. And for what it's worth, I believe that's where the focus should be... the O'Line and the running game. Not the constantly improving young QB.
Thank you for reading my first Redskins post. And pardon me if I may have used terms like we, or they, or you guys. I'm a brand new fan. I followed Coach Shanahan here. I'm confident he will do well for 'us'!
I look forward to any thoughts you may have.
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I agree
Free agency is pretty thin at offensive line, but draft picks are pretty thin also. I’d like to see us sign a guy like Kevin Mawae out of FA. He’s 38, but he would be an immediate upgrade in the middle, and he could be a good tutor to the young bucs for a year or two.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
not to worry...
as a lifelong skins fan in denver i can say its under control, relax…
i’m guessing he will bring in kuper and a few other bronco free agents like hamilton who dont need grooming. he can easily get 3 starters out of the castoffs out there who are more than serviceable. granted they are now competing with seattle, houston, and atlanta for those guys. (damn you alex gibbs!) but everyone knows the skins will probably pay the most, just like denver they usually get what they want. Shanny is a master recruiter.
if he drafts them he is unlikely to start them as rookies. only clady (massive talent) and pears (due to massive injuries) have ever started as rookies for shanny in denver. he normally grooms them for 2 years as backups so they can seamlessly slide in when someone gets hurt and not miss a beat. he brings in or drafts a few of them every year hoping a couple latch on to the system. everyone knows this, he always does it.
guessing what he will do is harder than most coaches. personally, i hope he drafts a qb like he did with cutler, and holds the clipboard a year or two unless they go all sanchez on us with talent.
if plummer can get to an afc championship game campbell can get to the playoffs. then hand the reins over to the future after that like plummer did to cutler. ez game.
Good thoughts
I agree with you Hamilton, but I’m not sure Denver can afford to let Kuper out of town, depending on how many upgrades at O’ Line are planned for the draft.
You’re correct, Shanny does tend to give rookies ample time to learn and adjust before throwing them in. But the question becomes, what comes first the chicken or the egg? By and large Mr. Mike alway kept a very talented O’ Line. There was no need to throw rookies in early because he planned ahead. The difference is that this is as much of a crisis management situation as it is a plan for the future.
I would guess FA’s will come in, as you suggested. But also that one and quite possibly two rookies will also play.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
elvis, welcome aboard great post and you have a friend in LJP.....2 high fives and a Chad Johnson opps !! Ocho Cinco, river dance to you !!
by LETJASONPASS on Jan 16, 2010 6:54 AM EST up reply actions
I think you meant "oops."
And I only mean that in a post paddin’ kinda way. :)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
OL #1 Priority
I’ve followed Shanahan’s career for the past 25+ years, and the first thing he’ll want to get fixed is the offensive line. He’ll bring in intelligent / athletic guys who can get to the second layer and effectively run the ZB scheme. Judging by how he did this in Denver he’ll be able to find lineman that are great for this scheme in the 3rd-6th rounds. Think he’d reach for the ‘right’ LT earlier if available also, knowing the pressure that is applied to that spot in this league.
I have no doubts that the Redskins will have one of the elite offenses in the NFL within 2-3 years … hopefully Shanahan will hire the right guys on defense to make that side of the ball special too.
In all honesty
Shanahan doesn’t have the best track record with defensive picks, but I’m thinking that the time off allowed him to truly evaluate what went wrong, what went right, and how to get ahead of the curve of current trends and traits.
I might be shot for saying this here in Redskins land, but I wish the Skins could find someone to take Haynesworth’s massive contract in a trade. The Skins could use the picks and I see no sense paying that much money over the next two years if you’re not a true contender.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
pretty sure
thats obv why he brought in allen. let him deal with defensive players. i bet he has learned his lesson this offseason. he is a master at adjusting at halftime and bye weeks, so consider this his halftime or bye week.
Shanahan does well drafting corners
He consistently draft starters in the later rounds. Something the redskins aren’t used to doing.
by JeanBaptiste on Jan 16, 2010 11:37 AM EST up reply actions
Campbell
This discussion has gone on forever on this board. It seems most consider JC mediocre at best, with the problem being that there are no better veterans available, and any rookie, no matter how good, is not likely to be better than JC this year. So it seems reasonable to improve the OL and go with JC this year. But I see JC as mediocre and not likely to improve, and also think the right rookie QB could be significantly better (think Flacco, Ryan, Sanchez) this year and certainly in 2011. Keeping JC delays getting a good QB. Further, there’s the contract situation – I can’t see how it’s a good idea to offer JC a long term contract, and he wouldn’t want a one year. Do we really want to commit long term to a mediocre QB? Not if you think past this year!
A couple points
there’s the contract situation – I can’t see how it’s a good idea to offer JC a long term contract, and he wouldn’t want a one year
Assuming the CBA isn’t renegotiated, Campbell is a restricted free agent. He pretty much has to accept what we offer him, or (1)He doesn’t play, (2) Another team signs him and we get draft pick compensation.
I see JC as mediocre and not likely to improveRegardless of how you ‘see’ Campbell, the stats suggest that he will improve, given the fact that he has improved every year of his career.
the right rookie QB could be significantly better (think Flacco, Ryan, Sanchez)Why did all of those QBs look so good as rookies? Their teams had solid Olines and great running games, neither of which we will have here unless we address the OL before worrying about drafting a QB.
Flacco
Here’s an article that reveals why Flacco has been successful:
“The Ravens’ 2007 draft led to their wild-card win today
By Doug Farrar
It’s not often that a team can overhaul an entire positional unit in one fell swoop — if you have a bad offensive or defensive line, a sub-par linebacker corps or secondary, it generally takes years, and different methods, to turn that around. There are exceptions, and the Baltimore Ravens’ ability to reinforce their offensive line and overall blocking concepts in a single draft — their 2007 edition — was perfectly displayed on the three-yard touchdown by Willis McGahee(notes) with 10:32 left in the Ravens’ 33-14 wild-card victory over the New England Patriots.
When you watch the play above, pay special attention to the blocking on the left side. Auburn left guard Ben Grubbs(notes), whose straight-ahead protection typifies his toughness, was Baltimore’s first selection in that draft with the 29th overall pick. Right guard Marshal Yanda(notes) (Iowa), who pulled left to reinforce the lane McGahee ran though, was taken in the third round. Fullback Le’Ron McClain(notes) (Alabama), who sealed the left edge on the play and has become recognized as one of the best blocking fullbacks in the game, was taken in the fourth round. Finally, the Ravens took left tackle Jared Gaither(notes) from Maryland in the supplemental draft on July 12 of that year after Gaither was ruled academically ineligible. Gaither has eased the line’s transition after the retirement of future Hall-of-Famer Jonathan Ogden(notes).
How good have these guys been? In 2006, the Ravens ranked second-to-last in the NFL in yards per carry at 3.4 — only the Arizona Cardinals were worse. As these players have matured, and with the additions of veteran center Matt Birk(notes) and dominant rookie right tackle Michael Oher(notes). In the 2009 regular season, the Ravens averaged 4.7 yards per carry; only the Titans, Cowboys and Panthers were better. Batimore tied for the NFL lead in rushing touchdowns with 22, and they added four more against the Patriots on Sunday.
That stability upfront has allowed this Baltimore team to redefine their offense in a preferred power running style, which has given maximum value out of running backs Ray Rice(notes) and Willis McGahee, and allowed second-year quarterback Joe Flacco(notes) to grow into his role without doing too much. The 234 yards on 52 attempts the Ravens put up against the Patriots was just the latest in a long line of reasons that Baltimore’s 2007 draft set the franchise up for future greatness from top to bottom."
Hopefully we can do the same with our draft!
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
That was essentially 3 drafts and a UDFA
But it makes my panties wet just thinking about it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
You're having a real problem with this pissing thing lately Scott
I won’t even guess why you’re wearing panties, though.
I can't see Campbell here next year if Skins draft a QB in round 1
If Shanahan decides he wants a 1st rd QB, it would be counterproductive to keep JC.
Campbell would be a lame duck, and you cannot have that much money tied up in your QB position.
If Campbell stays, Shan may draft a QB, but not until the later rounds.
Quarterback is the most important position on the team, and most new coaches/gms want to bring in their own guy to train them in their own way.
Offensive line will be addressed regardless of the QB situation, and will be much improved.
It would be counter productive to spend
A high first-round pick and an unGodly amount of money on a rookie QB if you plan to let JC go and start him behind that worthless O’ Line. It’s down right dangerous.
Yes, the O’ Line will be addressd either way. But you’re not going from terrible to respectable with what’s available in free agency alone. You’re not going to be certain of any immediate draft picks starting except the first one. The only play that makes sense here is to protect JC’s blind side with the #4 pick.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Offensive line second round draft picks
did about as well as 1st round picks for games played and started.
2009 NFL OL DRAFT ORDER Plus Scouts Inc Grades and NFL players info.
http://espn.go.com/nfl/draft09/
Round 1
Player————————Pos.———Team——Grade—G—-GS
2 Jason Smith——-OT————Rams——-97———8——-5
6 Andre Smith———OT———-Bengals —95———6——-1
8 Eugene Monroe-OT———-Jaguars—96——-15—-13
21 Alex Mack ————-C———-Browns—-87——-16—-16
23 Michael Oher—-OT ———Ravens—-92——-16—-16
28 Eric Wood————C———-Bills————86——-10—-10
Round 2
7 Eben Britton———OT———-Jaguars -89——-15—-15
17 Max Unger———-C———-Seahawks85——-16—16
19 Andy Levitre——OG———-Bills———-82——-16—-16
22 Phil Loadholt—OT———-Vikings——80——15—-15
26 Seb. Vollmer—OT————Patriots—74——-14——8
28 Will Beatty——-OT————Giants——85——-16——4
Grade= Scouts Inc. grade
Beatty could have been a starter, but the Giants had the luxury of letting him develop in preseason and practice.
Two of the four OL from the 3rd round also had significant playing time.
13 Antoine CaldwellC——Texans——71——-11——3
14 Louis VasquezOG——-Chargers59——-14—-14
Sorry about the formatting but it is a guess in the preview mode.
by Jefferson1935 on Jan 16, 2010 2:45 PM EST up reply actions
Impressive, thanks
Those numbers are certainly encouraging. Please bear in mind however, that each of the members of the Redskins’ starting line also had significant playing time. Yet that didn’t make them, or the line as a collective, effecient – let alone good.
Also, bear in mind that we’re not haggling over when to pick the singular addition to the O’ Line. Rather, the team needs to pick up multiple new starters between FA and the draft.
Nice stats though. That is encouraging.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
The first few OL get the publicity
Clady, Jake Long, Orlando Pace and other early 1st round picks have high expectancy placed on them, but they usually perform for many years. http://home.comcast.net/~fwroy/NFL%20OL%20Talent.html
There have been some bust including Mike Williams and Skins had a guy from Penn St years ago.
by Jefferson1935 on Jan 16, 2010 6:35 PM EST up reply actions
Lets not forget
that alot of the games started for the 1st round guys was influenced by injury, notably Jason Smith had a concussion and Andre Smith broke his foot. The last time the Redskins picked a LT top 5, we got a decade and a couple Pro Bowls out of him.
The Redskins have a good line when healthy.
The crime last year was they had no quality depth when Samuels and Thomas were lost.
Thomas, by all accounts looks good and is coming back. Here is how the line looks to me for 2010; Heyer/Jones:LT; Thomas/Rhineheart:RG; Rabach/Lichtensteiger/Montgomery;C; Dockery/Williams:LG.
LT is a major need, but between the draft and free agency we should be able to fill that spot and gain depth.
Is it a great line? No, but it is respectable and in my opinion better then average, if coached properly. If I thought we could draft a franchise LT with that 4th pick, I would be all for it. I don’t believe Okung or any other Tackle available is worthy of the 4th pick.
I do believe we can draft a starting LT with our 2nd round pick, sign a FA, and get depth with our 4th or 5th pick.
I'll 2nd that
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
no he's crazy in the assessment
Just watch them play and then say they are a good line. No, they are awful. Heyer can neither handle speed or power rush and he isn’t a very effective run blocker. Jones is mediocre at best. Thomas and Rinehart are both injured so counting on them is very risky. Rabach is ok as is Dockery but neither are ‘good’, they’re just mediocre. LT is a gaping whole.
yeah
and RT is a huge issue. Heyer is my mothers maiden name so I’ve been cheering for him as much as I can but the dude is totally outclassed on the field. There’s a point where you just have to face reality. Heyer is a backup and nothing more.
Including Heyer in your starting lineup
makes the rest of your analysis of our offensive line situation suspect.
Money is not a problem
It is a known fact Dan snyder is not afraid to dish out the big bucks, so keeping JC and drafting a high priced rookie won’t be a problem. I believe the best course of action is to sign JC to a one year contract and to keep the seat warm for clausen or bradford. This would give one of them time to develop while we build a team around them.
Well and he might in fact go that way
But money aside, that puts your best of only five picks on the bench, leaving four to rebuild with.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Offensive lines and running backs make QB's better. JC doesn't have what they have.
Think Ray Rice, Michael Turner, Thomas Jones. Those are the names of the best friends of the young QB’s you reference as examples of how rookies can be significantly better than JC. Two of those three teams have a top-five ranked rushing attack this year (Jets/Sanchez and Ravens/Flacco). Of the two of those QB’s in the league in 2008 (Falcons/Ryan, Ravens/Flacco), they both had top-five ranked rushing attacks.
Those three young studs have worked behind offensive lines that have collectively averaged 26 sacks per season allowed. Over the same period, JC’s offensive line has allowed 41 sacks per year.
The point, obviously, is that those QB’s have a great O’ Line and a great run game. Can anybody argue that? JC has a terrible running game and a terrible O’ Line to work with. And yet, none of those QB’s you mentioned have ever completed 65% of their passes, although Campbell did just that last year.
Can you name someone that has worked with Campbell over the last few years that has a reputation for developing QB’s like Shanahan? If not, perhaps JC should get the chance to continue to improve under Shanahan.
He doesn’t need a long term contract to stay btw. He’s going to be a RFA. The Skins just need to match any offer. They should be able to keep him next year for around $3M
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
very nice oberservation
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Welcome to HH!
You have given a lot of good info in your argument and I agree with you all the way. Your first post is awesome buddy.
Thanks Brandon!
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
I don't think Campbell is the future in DC
but we need to get another year out of him. I’m still holding out hope that Samuels returns. Kuper has been mentioned as a possible FA target, but he is restricted, and could likely cost us a draft pick. We just may have found our future center in Cory L. Dock is a very solid G. The right side of the line needs work, and certainly a future starting LT. If we do draft a QB in the 1st rd, I hope it’s Bradford. If this happens, we need to grab a T in the 2nd.
I would much prefer to take the trade down approach in the 1st this year and get a Bulaga, Davis, Campbell or Williams with our first pick. Take the extra 2nd and grab a RB, and take our 2nd and draft another linemen. I like the potential of some of next year QB’s. Locker, Mallett, Keenum, Devlin. The only problem is I hope we are not that bad next year to bi in the top 10 next year, and I do believe that both Locker and Mallett will be at the top of next years draft.
Maybe we need to suck it up and take out QB this year and let him sit a year behind JC. Try to add some quality FA O-linemen, and draft OT in the seconf RD. Also pray Samuels returns.
I like your trade down approach
That’s how I would do it. There’s a lot of first- round talent at Tackle in this draft, trading down would save money and add the extra pick. With only five picks this year and so much money tied up in Albert and Orakpo, that approach would seem to kill three birds with one stone.
Denver has work to do on its O’ Line also. Hamilton will likely be let go (no doubt Shanny goes after him), but I think any offer for Kuper would be matched. Denver’s depth there is nearly nonexistant, and even though they’ll bring in a new guard and center , I don’t think they can let go of Kuper at least until they know for sure that the new guard(s) are capable.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
If Shanahan feels Bradford, or any QB, is Franchise worthy
You have to take the QB. I have doubts myself about this class, so I would prefer the trade down approach.
It is just to early to speculate, we need to see these All-Star games and the combine to better judge what’s available.
Any free agents we sign this year look like stop-gaps and not long term solutions. If we spend 2 draft picks on linemen this year, and get good value, then I think we will be in good shape for the O-line.
I hope Samuels retires, I have read and heard he risks paralysis or long term damage.
In our overall priority of problems to fix
JC is not one of them. Fixing OL will allow JC to improve enough to at least manage the game for us.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
JC
JC IS NOT THE PROBLEM IT START AND STOP AT THE OL NOT THAT THEY ARE NO GOOD THEY HAVE A PROBLEM STAYING HEALTHY. i KNOW IN THE LAST TWO YEARS THE SAME FIVE THAT STARTED DID NOT END THE YEAR. YOU ARE LOOKING AT 10 TO 13 DIFFERENT STARTING LINE UPS IN A 16 GAME SEASON THAT IS A PROBLEM.
OL is need not qb
While campbell might not be a top ten qb ever in this league he will benefit from shanny for the fact that shanny is a truly great offensive coach and nows that running the ball is the key to success in this league. But shanny also knows that more then dc needs a qb in the near future what we need today and for the past few seasons is O-line and alot of it the best way to do this is the draft and trading some of our over paid players like randel el and santana while also cleaning out that locker room of our all the bad fits we have and past mistakes of snyder.
JC, O-line
It should be possible to draft a good young QB in the first round, then upgrade the offensive line in later draft rounds and from free agency. We have some very serviceable holdovers on the O-line – LG Dockery, C Rabach, LT Jones, RGs Thomas and Williams; maybe Heyer and Rinehart as barely adequate backups. We badly need tackles, but hopefully don’t have to use the first round pick (always iffy anyway). Many above seem to think we can keep Jason for one year as a bridge to someone better, but that may not be possible. Given the contract situation, it might be all or nothing – he goes, or is given a long term contract. To me, the latter is disastrous, leaving us stuck with a mediocre QB for the forseeable future. We should be able to get something pretty good for JC now.
Ya, with a #4 pick, it's certainly possible
Although I completely disagree that it is the desirable approach.
It’s all about the approach with JC. He keeps improving, but nobody has shown faith in him. The team kept trying to go after Cutler and Sanchez this last off-season. He improved again, and still no respect. But he felt slighted by the previous regime, he’s not frustrated or mad at the new management. A little ego massage from Mike to JC will go a long way. In fact, I’ll bet he’s looking forward to working with someone of Mike Shanahan’s reputation. I’ll bet he did backflips when Zorn left and Shanny entered.
On the other note, there’s no way Campbell is going to holdout during training camp for a long term offer. He’ll have a tender placed on him. If someone offers more, the Redskins will likely match. But never the matter. In either event, he will know his worth.
People only hold out when they feel they’re being underpaid. JC will know if another team wants him and if they want to pay him more because they will submit an offer sheet. He will know his worth to the T. What’s he gonna do, say sorry Shanny… even though nobody gave me an offer, I’m still gonna hold out because you’re a Redskin and the old Redskins were mean to me. I kind of doubt that.
Like I said, Shanny should massage his ego, make him feel confident… even maybe offer a two year deal with additional performance incentives (with an opt-out clause of course). Tell him he’s the man and that the team needs him. Because the truth of the matter is, you can’t evaluate a constantly improving QB as a bust while he’s perpetually laying on his back.
The guy needs another year. Not just to evaluate, but also to restock the required resources to make a move for a quality qb.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
Not sure if they'll match
If JC is tendered for a 1st and 3rd then I think they’ll let him walk. If Shannahan sees something he likes out of one of the Qb’s in the first round he’ll go for it. This is the only scenario that I would be somewhat comfortable with if we were to draft a Qb this year. We’d still have a 1st rounder that we could use on a tackle or trade back and we gain an extra pick.
by Nobetterthenbob on Jan 17, 2010 2:40 AM EST up reply actions
I will concede that point and agree
If he is tendered for a 1 and a 3 I could see it possible that Shanahan would pull the trigger on a QB at #4, draft a stud tackle with the second #1 pick, and grab a capable veteran off the wires to start the season with. Maybe a guy like Jeff Garcia.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
I think we should
forgo any notion of picking a QB in this year’s draft. We should match any offer made and keep JC for 3 years. Then, I would go after Jake Locker next year and groom him to be our eventual QB. If JC proves worthy, we have Jake (thind Aaron Rodgers) as a backup to groom for several years and be ready to step in when called upon.
It’s the least risky scenario with the most upside and keeps all of our picks this year as opposed to potentially wasting one on a college player who may not transition to the pros in the end.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
it's all about circumstances and timing:
Circumstances: JC was asked to run a west-coast offense, and he’s a pocket passer. Everyone’s denigrating his progress, but it was ridiculous from the get-go to expect him to be “elite” in this kind of offensive scheme. Given the troubles wiht the O-line AND with the playbook, he made tremendous strides. Everyone who’s saying keep him for a year and then trade him next year is forgetting that with a real O-line and Shanahan’s run-first attack, JC is finally going to be playing in the type of offense that’s perfect for him. THIS is the year should expect him to take a huge step forward.
Timing: Draft a franchise QB at #4? What a terrible idea for this team right now. FIrst of all, no matter what anyone says, nobody can say if a highly-ranked college player is actually going to be a franchise QB. For every Peyton Manning or Ben Roethlisberer, there’s a Heath Schuler or a Chad Pennington, or even an Eli Manning: someone who’s fine, but hardly franchise-worthy. It’s a notoriously fluky position and the planets have to align—there’s no sure thing. Meanwhile, anyone we’d draft would need at least a year or two to develop to the point where they’d be confident and great at NFL speed (Haters won’t want to admit it, but the ‘Skins will have a better chance to win over the next two years with the experienced JC than they will with any rookie QB). Two years from now, many of the Redskins’ core players (Cooley, Cartwright, etc) will be in their 30s or approaching them. They’ll be an old team. No longer built to win. So you don’t draft a QB now to target for 2012 unless you’re going to trade most of these guys away and get younger, and that’s clearly not the current plan.
I’m all good with drafting a good QB in the 3rd or 4th round and looking at other guys running around as a backup plan that’s better than Collins. But Shanahan has already given JC a big vote of confidence, and I expect at some point he will do so even more forcefully, stating that he’s the guy going forward, that there will be no competition in camp. There needs to be SOME kind of constancy with the team, and QB is the obvious place to have it. The players all respect JC, Portis is clearly on his way out, and there are no other offensive candidates to be the core of this team.
Eli Manning, by the way is proof positive that you can win with a mediocre QB. If he had a different last name, people would hold him up as what he is: a wildly inconsistent passer who sometimes is brilliant and other times is erratic beyond measure. The fact that he got a ridiculous contract doesn’t change who he is: a top-15-but-not-top-10 QB who excels because of the team around him. No reason Campbell can’t be the same or better.
(Little-known fact: Campbell’s career passer rating, up-to-date through 2009, ranks 32nd all time, ahead of folks like Aikman and Moon. Eli is 22 notches further down the list at 54, among the likes of Mark Rypien. This may help to show that “Passer Rating” is an incomplete statistic at best, but it does point out that, at least statistically, Jason Campbell is far better than many believe. I’m personally very excited to see what he does with a real O-line and a run-first offense).
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
by zknower on Jan 17, 2010 6:27 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
ha ha
elvis, i just now read your post, and saw that you made many of these same points. so I guess i’m just echoing your brilliant analysis! ;)
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
Well, and halfway down your post just above this one I was already prepping for a chest bump!
Kudos. Obviously we agree.
In your 3rd paragraph you mention a vote of confidence. I’m not familiar with this. Did Shanny say something about Jason?
Good points about shanny building a better system for Campbell. As I said in another post, Shanny and Turner will set up a system to which they can almost make the waterboy a pro-bowl running back. That combined with efficient protection should give us a better look at who Jason Campbell is.
One last note that you hit on that I’d like to underline: competition in camp. I think we are in probably in the large minority here in believing that it is better to not bring in someone for JC to compete with. I’m all for bringing in competition in many, if not most, cases. But each situation warrants a different approach.
The previous management tried to trade Campbell multiple times. The fans blame JC for most of the teams’ issues. Team-Campbell is a very small group and he knows it. It’s a vote of no confidence. He’s improved every year, but never had coaches, fans, or management on Team-Campbell. He’s never had job security or been made to feel like he’s wanted.
Instead of bringing in competition, Shanny needs to just hug it out in press conference loudly stating that Jason is our guy. Maybe JC will be more willing to take risks and win games when he doesn’t feel like he’s always one mistake away from the bench.
Thanks. And kudos on your take!
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
QB competition
I didn’t think to much of the Danny/Cerrito attempts at other QBs, but I can’t see the same 2nd and 3rd team QBs either. Collins should be replaced by an upgrade of a younger and faster player. Colt is still much of a question mark, not that 3rd string QBs mean much in the NFL except in practice squads doing opponents plays and the like. LETPEYTONPASS;)
by Jefferson1935 on Jan 17, 2010 8:34 PM EST up reply actions
To be honest
I’m not really up to speed with the current backups on the roster. I guess I just assumed that with how loudly ex-management wanted to replace JC, that they would have started the backup at some point in the season if they saw promise.
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
re:
In your 3rd paragraph you mention a vote of confidence. I’m not familiar with this. Did Shanny say something about Jason?
Yes. Not necessarily that the job is his, but here’s the quote:
“I’m looking forward to working with him. I love the way Jason handles himself. . . . I’m looking forward to watching every play he’s had in his career. Hopefully his best years are ahead.”
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
In answer to the title of your post
No, and No.
"I doubt he could reach [second base]...mostly cuz his fucking arm was in Aybar's nuts." – twistedlogic
Short and sweet, thanks for the input!
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
some amazing consensus-building is afoot.
so just to summarize what we’ve learned so far this year:
16% of Hogs Haven thinks that LETJASONPASS is a beautiful disaster
24% of Hogs Haven has no idea who Josh Cribbs is
59% of Hogs Haven wants Campbell under center next year
92% of Hogs Haven wants to draft OL
100% of Hogs Haven wants to give ELVISALEX a reach-around
by sofutomygaha on Jan 19, 2010 4:31 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Hahaha priceless!
Well I know Cribbs, but I think the line to get on that train is longer than my reach-around lol
Good luck with the Redskins Mr. Mike! I'll be watching and cheering for a non-Bronco team for the first time in my life. Well, except when they play the Broncos!
I can tell
you’re gonna fit in around here
SpottieOttieDopaliscious
Rec for HHLOD
100% of Hogs Haven wants to give ELVISALEX a reach-around
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
sofu, don't hate only one straw allowed in this drink at a time and that would be "LJP" !!!
Hey, and if you do not know who Joshua Cribbs is. Then you are not a real football fan. Maybe you are a skins fan but not one that follows the game.
by LETJASONPASS on Jan 20, 2010 2:06 PM EST up reply actions
um, that was really confusing
I think that the lack of sex/true redskins football is getting to you, bud.
sofu, I guess you have missed my mutiple posts about the straw in the glass ??
by LETJASONPASS on Jan 21, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
I think so.
Dare I ask for the cliff notes?
by sofutomygaha on Jan 21, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions
YOu know....
These posts are getting silly. You know what this is like.?.. This is like living in an appartment complex and one of your neibors keeps playing the same record over and over again. At first you didnt mind cause it USED to be a good record to listen to. Now all you can do is beat on the wall and scream as loud as possible so maybe the ass will hear you.
We need to keep a sticky at the top of this board. STOP POSTing about JC17. Im not defending or attacking him. We have a new one of these posts every week. Every week it is someone new.
"When the rich wage WAR its the POOR that die!!!"
then again
that’s kind of what forums like this are for, isn’t it.
by sofutomygaha on Jan 23, 2010 2:20 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, thats my NC education kickin in
that was 5 cups of coffee and 2 hours of sleep typing. Spell check ruined my vocab.
"When the rich wage WAR its the POOR that die!!!"
Its the offseason and we're Redskins fans.
Not much new to talk about until the free agency period starts.
hahahaha
so picking on the half illiterate guy sounds like something fun to do. Being educated in NC is actually a disability. So basically you guys want to beat up on a disabled person… SAD… truely sad…
"When the rich wage WAR its the POOR that die!!!"
I was unclear
I meant in regards to the number of posts that all seem to be discussing the same topics (OL, Jason Campbell, etc.). Picking on illiterate people is always fun, offseason or not.
campbell is only part of the big problem.
portis is always hurt. his off-season dedication is obviously showing his lack of dedication to the team. he should be gone. moss and randle el as well because they are never 100%, nor seem like they are on the team page. the o-line obviously needs major upgrades just about everywhere. we will get cap relief from samuels. and i believe we have good talent at running back, that an improved o-line will display. they played well behind a weekly make shift line. i think we can draft two tackles, and make the rest guards and backups. they all have experience at different positions. campbell just needs to work on fundamentals. he needs to not hang onto the ball so long and step up in the pocket when the pressure flows uphill. he has all the athletic tools and the arm to be great. he should’ve gotten better coaching from zorn. our db’s need help also. landry cannot cover anybody. but that is where horton excelled and he was hurt. i think all we need really is another quality tackle or end to put pressure on the qb. drafting a qb, which is not the #1 need, extremely restricts us from filling holes in the draft. we can get a future qb in the 3rd round or possibly later, depending where someone like tony pike may fall. we need at least one of the top 3 tackles. if we get a qb, we have to hope we hit the lottery later in the draft, which history shows us the odds are far worse with o-linemen.
Problem - the offensive scheme?
I usually blame JC (and the O-line) for the offensive problems, but I’m starting to wonder if it isn’t really an insipid and uninspired offense devised by Jim Zorn and Sherman Smith that is the real culprit. . Not just the play calling, but the plays and structure, and lack of adjustments. Zorn and Smith were both inexperienced. So maybe Shanahan will decide to stick with Campbell.
This is definitely true
When Sherm Lewis came on board, he immediately gave Campbell the wrist band and the offense noticeably got better (against tougher opponents might I add). Not to mention Cooley explicitly said in an interview how much it helped him.
"It was one of those things where everyone in the building was suddenly excited again," Cerrato said. "And all the women in the building were the most excited. They couldn't believe we were getting the guy from "Dancing With the Stars."
by Kevin Ewoldt on Jan 25, 2010 12:15 AM EST up reply actions
It will be a bumpy ride.
If you are going to get on the JC17 “Bandwagon” make sure you get a seat near the emergency exit. I’m not a supporter but i dont think we need a rookie either. He will be what is best for the team THIS year. Now If they do get a rook (I hope they dont waste that pick on one) he needs to study a year before he takes the ball.
"When the rich wage WAR its the POOR that die!!!"
Quarterback
I guess only two, maybe three, opinions count – the Shanahan boys, maybe with some input from Bruce Allen. Whatever they come up with, we should be substantially better than last year. It’ll be interesting to see how the Redskins handle the draft organizationally – will it be a team effort again, will Dan be a part of the team, or what?
lol... I certainly hope we can do better than 4-12...lol
"When the rich wage WAR its the POOR that die!!!"
A casual observer's POV
I watched the Skins when I was able down here in Alabama (Damn regional coverage, and the rarity of the later game coverage), basically to watch JC play. He seemed to do really well when he had time to throw. I admit to being biased (see my sig and figure out why). How many OC’s has he had? Could ANY QB function under the conditions in Washington since he was drafted? Stick with him. I have a feeling that if you don’t, and he goes somewhere witha a more stable environment, you’ll wish that you had.
Upon moving to AL, I let my wife decide who she would root for. After one day at a new job full of Bama fans, she met me at the door with a hearty cry of "WAR EAGLE"
by SandMountainTiger on Jan 25, 2010 7:13 PM EST reply actions
My sentiments exactly
Many of the media’s favorites will never be effective in this league. We no Jason can be to a certain degree under horrendous conditions. Let’s ride it out.
I had a similar experience when I moved to Florida. I’d always followed the more northern teams and have rooted for Joe Pa in the race between he and Bobby Bowden to see who could get the most wins. Three days after moving to Florida I was a total Seminole Fan vs the Gators. Nuff said.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
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