NFL Interior Offensive Linemen
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 7, 2009 7:40 PM EDT
54 comments
A lot of comments have been made concerning the lack of interior offensive linemen by the Redskins over recent years. This is the true situation, however, linemen selected in the first few rounds generally have long and productive NFL careers.
Randy Thomas was the 10th interior lineman (LM) and 3rd guard selected in the 1999 draft. Chris Samuels was the 1st LM selected in the 2000 draft. Casey Rabach was the 10th LM and 1st center selected in the 2001 draft. Mike Williams was the 1st LM selected in the 2002 draft. Derrick Dockery was the 14th LM and 3rd guard selected in the2003 draft. Chad Rinehart was the 13 LM selected in the 2008 draft. Most often only the 1st round selections play and start 16 games. So far Mike Williams has not accomplished much considering his position in the draft and Chad Rinehart's lack of playing time is not so unusual for a 3rd rounder. Jeremy Bridges was a 6th round pick and Stephan Heyer was an undrafted free agent. It would be nice to have a picket fence of 1st rounders. ;)
Since 1995 604 LM, 101 centers, 212 guards, and 291 tackles have been selected in the draft. First, 2nd, and 3rd round picks amounted to 226 players. In the years 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, 1998, 1997, 1996, and 1995 there were respectively 36, 40, 42, 50, 50, 41, 41, 34, 41, 32, 39, 43, 34, 39, and 42 LM selected in all rounds and 9, 10, 9, 11, 9, 7, 8, 11, 7, 11, 11, 10, 8, 10, 16 in the 1st 2 rounds. Since 2002 there have been 32 teams in the league and obviously only a few teams can get the most highly regarded players in a given year. While the Redskins have had scant pickings in the draft, the typical NFL team is nearly on a par with them considering free agents and trades.
Washington Redskins Washington Redskins roster
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And with that
you just spent more time talking about O-linemen in those 3 paragraphs than the Skins FO brain(dis)trust has spent talking about them in the past 10 years. Kudos.
An utter and complete nightmare…
does this article have a point?? If it does (which i doubt) is the point supposed to be about “NFL Interior Linemen” or about “the lack of interior offensive linemen by the Redskins”. Its basically just a vomit of random numbers, years, buzzwords and positions.
======
A lot of comments have been made concerning the lack of interior offensive linemen by the Redskins over recent years. This is the true situation, however, linemen selected in the first few rounds generally have long and productive NFL careers.
How does the first statement in any way relate to the second statement. Yes, early in the draft OL are normally safe bets but that has NOTHING to do with the skins lack of depth in the interior. That is like saying “A lot of fans around the NFL question the eagles depth at WR, however, WRs run fast.”
Chris Samuels was the 1st LM selected in the 2000 draft.
If we are talking about interior OL why is Chris Samuels even in the discussion??
In the years 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001, 2000, 1999, 1998, 1997, 1996, and 1995 there were respectively 36, 40, 42, 50, 50, 41, 41, 34, 41, 32, 39, 43, 34, 39, and 42 LM selected in all rounds and 9, 10, 9, 11, 9, 7, 8, 11, 7, 11, 11, 10, 8, 10, 16 in the 1st 2 rounds.
1) I was hoping another HHer could diagram that sentence.
2) so what you are basically saying is that in any given year 1/3 of the teams in the league draft an OL in the first 2 rounds. The skins on the other hand havent drafted an OL that high since 2000 (Snyder came in control 1999).
Since 2002 there have been 32 teams in the league and obviously only a few teams can get the most highly regarded players in a given year.
and after a sharp left turn we find ourselves here with this little nugget of information
While the Redskins have had scant pickings in the draft, the typical NFL team is nearly on a par with them considering free agents and trades.
what the #@*$?? How the hell did we arrive at this conclusion?? Are you saying that the skins are on par with a typical NFL team in regards to overall talent, in regards to overall depth, or in regards to draft picks spent on OL???
==========
BTW… since Chris Samuels was chosen in the 1st round in 2000 the skins have used 2 “high” picks (rounds 1-4) on OL. Dockery in 03, Rhinehart in 08. If you think the Derrick Dockery that is coming back to the skins is the same “probowl caliber” player that left for greener pastures and 10 figure singing bonuses a few years ago you are sadly mistaken.
Thank-you
This clearly explains the unexplainable.
Although, totally disagree with your last statement
If you think the Derrick Dockery that is coming back to the skins is the same "probowl caliber" player that left for greener pastures and 10 figure singing bonuses a few years ago you are sadly mistaken.
Derrick Dockery will be one of the top 5 Left Gaurds in the NFL this year, IMO the Redskins could not do any better at that position.
Unless of course, you analyze the statement, realizing that 4 guards will be better so the Redskins could do better at the position…
Derrick Dockery will be one of the top 5 Left Gaurds in the NFL this year
from the buffalo news…
He lasted just two seasons after signing what at the time was the biggest deal in team history, a seven-year, $49 million contract. He wound up getting $18 million the past two years.
However, Dockery’s play did not match his pay. He had a disappointing season in 2008, particularly in pass protection, prompting the Bills’ decision. The Bills did not save much cap space by releasing him. He still will count $5.4 million on their cap list this season, thanks to bonus payments he previously received that “roll back” into this year’s cap.
what do you see in this guy that the bills coaching staff (and the rest of the league) missed??
by dt3 on Jun 8, 2009 2:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I did a little research into Dockery’s play last year. I mostly found discussions on how poorly Peters played which included (and blame) Dockery. I’m including a link to the Bills blog that has videos of all the sacks the Bills gave up, plus commentary/discussions. It is pretty interesting and a good evaluation. Dockery is clearly out of position a few times, but is never physically beaten once engaged (looks like he is still a strong run blocker). Bugle should be able to correct his positioning. The big surprise is that Peters gets beat bad more than a few times. Peters gives up at least four sacks that cause fumbles, he is beat to the inside and outside, even straight on physically. There is even one sack for a safety that ends the Bills playoff hopes. I think Osi and Ware are going to like having Peters in the NFC East, but you should review the link and judge for yourself.
Philly fans
are still in denial about Peters.
"Sure it’d be great to be playing with 10 good fingers, but 8 will do just fine." – Jon Jansen
I wont front… there are definitely concerns about Peters play last year and the amount of money it took to resign him. Either way though I like him at LT more than an old Tra Thomas (or even Chris Samuels) and view him as a better option than any of the players that were available at 28.
‘the best LT in the league’
you havent heard me say that
by dt3 on Jun 8, 2009 5:57 PM EDT up reply actions
well I am sure plenty of film could be put together to show that Albert Haynesworth isnt worth 100 million (in a non-contract season).
by dt3 on Jun 8, 2009 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions
other than Lynch's decent
sophomore season…when has Buffalo pushed anyone around?
but is never physically beaten once engaged
well no offense but… of course a play where Dockery is clear cut beat for a sack is not going to be shown on a list of plays breaking down Jason Peters season. Im not going to say whether it did or didnt happen (though I find it hard to believe it didnt) but there is no way you can say for sure by watching 20 snaps that are supposed to focus on JP.
by dt3 on Jun 8, 2009 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions
There were a few plays
where it looked like Dockery missed his assignment. My biggest concern is whether he gets manhandled or beaten one-on-one. Dockery has the size and strength to hold his own at LG. It will be up to Buges to help him know his assignments.
"Sure it’d be great to be playing with 10 good fingers, but 8 will do just fine." – Jon Jansen
hate to make another response post but wanted to clear up one thing
I’m including a link to the Bills blog that has videos of all the sacks the Bills gave up
the link posted is to a discussion thread talking about Jason Peters and rumors of him allowing 19 sacks last season. By no means does this show “all the sacks the Bills gave up”.
by dt3 on Jun 8, 2009 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions
This one poster was on point:
Playoffs?Playoffs? Playoffs?Playoffs? is offline
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 127
Boy, there is one common denominator in the sacks you have listed as Peters getting plainly beaten and that is:
Speed and quickness beats power!
Peters just gets used in those clips!
"Sure it’d be great to be playing with 10 good fingers, but 8 will do just fine." – Jon Jansen
Back to Systems
Dockery in Buffalo
Hall in Oakland
Taylor in Washington
Solid players, which can be the top 10 or 5 or best at a position depending on the system which is employed for them to play the game. One major concern with Haynesworth, and his 100 million dollar contract is he a system player or a great player who can perform in many systems.
dt3
I notice that you have posted 74 comments but have never started a thread – http://www.hogshaven.com/search?btn=Go&order=date&q=DT3&type=Comment
A cursior review of your comments and you have concern for someone elses soul???
by Jefferson1935 on Jun 8, 2009 10:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I notice that you have posted 74 comments but have never started a thread
so….. whats your point?? This site works like most other blog sites where 90% of the topics are started by 10% of the visitors and than there is a large # of readers/lurkers/commenters.
If you are trying to make some type of “people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones” statement please visit bloody elbow, bleeding green nation, bullets forever, or even mocking the draft where you can see some of the threads i have started (and hopefully a lesson on how to complete a coherent thought).
you have concern for someone elses soul???
that statement actually came from YOOUR boy, Travis.
ha
it’s a quote from billy madison, read it again and you’ll recognize it
Dude, defend your post by fixing it, not by ad hominem attacks.
dt3 has great points and your article was…pretty bad…meandering, not enough evidence, random numbers. You can go back and edit posts, I suggest you try it.
"You will remember the night you were struck by the sight of [18] thousand fists in the air" -Disturbed
I don't know about
Dockery being worse. Some players fit better with some teams than others. Other than that, this post was by far the funniest thing I’ve ever read on this site. Who knows what the point of the post was, but you at least have to commend his research. The only thing he spent more time on than research was typing numbers. I yelled BINGO at least 4 times while reading it.
Jefferson,
“What you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.”
by travisjh86 on Jun 8, 2009 1:54 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I can't understand
why you had to post several comments and wasted my time..if it was so stupid
if this thread is typical…my first day will be my last
this is definitely not a typical thread
in fact, never seen one like this
by Kevin Ewoldt on Jun 10, 2009 1:09 AM EDT up reply actions
you got some sand in your vagina or something? i was pointing out the irrelevance of this fanpost, so cool it
why am i not allowed to make more than one comment? I apologize about wasting your time, i’ll get those few minutes back to you soon
sound good?
all this post has done is confused everyone and piss everyone off, I’m still trying to figure out what the point of this post is
From Richmond to the District
NFL Interior Offensive Linemen
Figures were developed by aggregating individual player information from the NFL players from offensive linemen (http://tinyurl.com/pwtpx9) and the history of the NFL draft for the same players by draft year (http://tinyurl.com/ndjjqu) . The time series developed covers 15 years.. I was premature in posting summaries of all drafted individuals rather than those that were only for players currently considered active by the NFL.. While I researched smaller clusters of players such as 7th round picks after 4 years as well as the active/inactive status of 1st, 2 nd, and 3rd round picks in the 2008 season for players drafted in 2002 and 2003, I made no attempt to classify the entire 604 players drafted during the 15 period. In order to develop a meanful measure of the active players, such a classification would need to be applied for each of the draft round and position (center, guard, and tackle). To keep it simpler the original position category would need to be maintained even though ,for example, some centers were eventually only long snapper or may have become tackels. The information may have been easier to comprehend if presented in a tabular form.
No worries
It’s a ton of information and no doubt hard to ingest no matter how you throw it up. The tab form probably would have helped versus listing each year. Thanks tho…and welcome to Hogs Haven.
Frickin Marion Barry rescheduled me 2x and now is not returning messages after he missed the last call. what a dick. I was gonna keep the interview classy, but now i am reconsidering.
by Kevin Ewoldt on Jun 9, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah man,
meant no offense by the mercy on your soul quote, its from a movie…
but i give you an A for effort
you have done the impossible… you have somehow found a way to dig your hole even deeper and confuse the rest of us even more than you did with the original post.
Figures were developed by aggregating individual player information from the NFL players from offensive linemen (http://tinyurl.com/pwtpx9) and the history of the NFL draft for the same players by draft year
what figures? The amount of players drafted each position/year?? What are you trying to say/prove with these figures?? I am still not sure what you are trying to state/prove but how do plan on factoring in UDFA to whatever it is you are trying to state/prove.
While I researched smaller clusters of players such as 7th round picks after 4 years as well as the active/inactive status of 1st, 2 nd, and 3rd round picks in the 2008 season for players drafted in 2002 and 2003, I made no attempt to classify the entire 604 players drafted during the 15 period.
I dont have any specific numbers but I would think its a safe guess that a high percentage of OL drafted in the 7th round dont stick around for long. One of the (few) things I was able to pick up from the original post was trying to state that while the skins dont use alot of draft picks on the line they do bring in OL from other teams that at one point where drafted high, how does that relate to a bunch of 6th-7th round picks selected 14, 15 years ago.
In order to develop a meanful measure of the active players, such a classification would need to be applied for each of the draft round and position (center, guard, and tackle). To keep it simpler the original position category would need to be maintained even though ,for example, some centers were eventually only long snapper or may have become tackels.
you threw simple out the window a long time ago
The information may have been easier to comprehend if presented in a tabular form.
The information may have been easier to comprehend if you stated what your actual topic was, why you were showing us these figures, and what you proposed to prove with the figures. Are you talking about all offensive LM or just interior LM. Are you talking about this to prove us something league-wide or specific to the redskins??
======
I am not trying to break your balls about all this, I honestly am trying to help you. I think the main issue is you are trying to cram 10 lbs of shit in a 5lb bag. If you are trying to write about a study that incorporates 15 years and 32 teams lose all the skins info in the middle. It doesnt advance the topic and is literally less than 1% of the topic at hand (32 teams, 15 years). Write a 4-5 sentence paragraph that states what you want to find out/prove and how you plan on doing it.
(ex. I think fans give the skins front office too much S about not drafting an offensive linemen in the first round each year. I think if you draft wisely the same talent can be found in the 3rd/4th rounds and plan on breaking down all OL drafted over a 10-15 year period to show a similar success rate for players that are drafted in rounds 1/2 and 3/4.)
by dt3 on Jun 9, 2009 1:18 PM EDT up reply actions
How about we just say
the Skins don’t value O-lineman as much as winning organizations do? Seriously, has as big a deal ever been made of a position battle by THREE players who are reclamation projects? OK, maybe 2. Heyer is just a plain old project. I mean, I was more excited last year of us drafting Rhinehart than anyone else, just because we finally took a lineman. Meanwhile, Pittsburgh, New England, Indy, and even the Giants, draft O-linemen every year. So this thread is useless. Saying you can get talent just as good in the later rounds is a moot point if you don’t draft them there either. Though I still don’t buy that argument. What ever happened to the 2 guys we drafted in ’04? Molinaro and Wilson.
NFL OFFENSIVE LINEMEN
dt3:
You did make a significant point in mentioning UDFA players. The 2009 UDFA can be identified using the NFL players list for current players and the link to individual players profiles which shows the rookie classification. The UDFA prior to2009 is a different story and may not have 100% precision. The Wikipedia search finds news articles about using a format like [“players name” undrafted free agents]. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%22Jermail+Porter%22+undrafted+free+agent&ns0=1&title=Special%3ASearch&fulltext=Search&fulltext=Search
The following list can also be of some use – Undrafted Football Players List: NFL (1535): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Undrafted_National_Football_League_players
I have already reduced the drafted players list from 1995 to 2008 by eliminating the historical players, but it is still premature to show the numbers derived at this point. Team cutdowns will need to occur.
Current Drafted NFL Linemen
The following table is an approximation of the current drafted offensive linemen. There are some limitations such as the position identification of players. The category that was used at the time of the individuals drafting was maintained through out rather than the position played at the end of the 2008 season. Long snappers are included in the numbers if they were originally drafted. However long snappers such as Kevin Houser, who was drafted as a fullback are not included. Tight ends that converted to centers, guards, or tackles also were not included. Terms used were the same as used by the NFL except as noted in abbreviations note.
Current Drafted Offensive Lineman (OL) by year: 1993-2009
[Drafted players were identified (http://tinyurl.com/cdvulm
and in turn reduced to the currently active players by use the active players or historical players
lists: http://tinyurl.com/m6us3p)]
CURRENT NFL DRAFTED OFFENSIVE LINEMEN (as of June 10, 2009)
Rd.|…..1993-2009…|…..2009…..|…..2008.….|….2007…..|…..2006……|….2005….|…..2004
….|,,.L…C…G…T..|..L…C..G..T.|..L..C..G..T.|..L..C..G..T.|..L..C..G..T.|..L..C..G..T..|…L..C..G..T
1 |..48…6….9…33.|..6…2…0…4.|..8…0…0..8.|..4…0…1…3.|..3…1…1…1.|..4…1…1…2.|..3…0…0…3
2 |..45 8….18…19.|..3…0…0…3.|..2…0…2..0.|..5…2…2…1 |..8…2…2…4.|..5…0…2…3.|..3…0…3…0
3…|..44…8…15…21.|..4…0…2…2.|..4…0…1..3.|..5…0…1…4.|..5…0…2…3.|..5…1…1…3.|..5…1…3…1
4…|..52 12…24 16.|..6 1 3 2.|..8…2…4 2.|..7…1…4…2.|..7…0…4…3.|..9…3…4…2.|..3…1…0…2
5…|..46…9…14 23.|..7 0 0 7 |..3…0…2 1.|..5…1…2…2.|..7…0…3…4.|..7…3…0…4.|..3…0…2…1
6…|..36…6…14 16 |..2…0…1…7.|..5…2…2..1.|..8…2…1…5.|..7…1…4…2.|..6…0…3…3.|..3…1…1…1
7…|..43…9….9…25.|..8…2…4…2.|..9…1…1..7 |..6…0…1 5.|..5…1…1…3.|..2…1…0…1.|..2…2…0…0
S…|314 58.103.153 |36..5..10 21|39 5 12 22.|40…6.12.22 |42…5.17.20.|38…9.11.18.|22…5…9…8
Rd.|…….2003……|…. .2002…..|…..2001…. |…..2000… .|…..1999…..|…..1998…..|1993-1997
…….|..L..C..G..T..|…L..C..G..T.|..L..C..G..T..|..L..C..G..T. |..L..C..G..T.|..L..C..G..T..|..L..C..G..T
1… |..4…1…0…3..|..5…0…1…4.| .3…0…2…1.|..1…0…0…1.|..2…1…0…1.|..1…0…1…0.|..5…0…2…3
2……|..3…1…1…1..|..4…0…2…2.|..3…1…0…2.|..4…0…2…2.|..3…1…1…1.|..2…1…1…0.|..1…0…1…0
3……|..4…0…2…2..|..3…2…1…0.|..4…1…1…2.|..2…1…0…1.|..1…1…0…0.|..2…1…1…0.|..0…0…0…0
4……|..1…0…1…0..|..1…1…0…0.|..4…2…2…0 |..1…1…0…0.|..1…0…1…0.|..2…0…1…1.|..2…1…0…1
5……|..7…3…3…1..|..1…0…1…0.|..2…1…1…0.|..1…1…0…0.|..0…0…0…0.|..2…1…0…1.|..2…0…0…2
6……|..2…0…1…1..|..1…0…1…0.|..0…0…0…0.|..0…0…0…0.|..0…0…0…0.|..2…0…0…2.|..0…0…0…0
7……|..1…0…0…1..|..4…1…1…2.|..3…0…1…2.|..1…0…0…1.|..1…1…0…0.|..2…0…1…1.|..1…1…0…0
S……|22…5…9…8..|19…4…7…8.|.19..5…7…7.|10…1…2…7.|..8…4…2…2.|13…3…5…5.|11…2…3…6
Abbreviations: Rd = round, L = offensive lineman (centers, guards; tackles), and S = rounds total.
he disappears for a week and to prove his point (which we don’t know what it is still) he comes back with this table of numbers that doesn’t have any purpose to it
way to go, i hope that didn’t take you too long to research/put together
When I look at his tables
all I can think about is the Matrix. Could it be Morpheus or Trinity trying to make contact? If I see any white rabbit tattoos today, I’ll know what to do.
RAK EM UP!
Neo is running! I don’t know why I like this thread. I was strangely excited when I saw there were some new posts.
I know why you’re here, liger99. I know what you’ve been doing… why you hardly sleep, why you live alone, and why night after night, you sit by your computer. You’re looking for him. I know because I was once looking for the same thing. And when he found me, he told me I wasn’t really looking for him. I was looking for an answer. It’s the question that drives us, liger99. It’s the question that brought you here. You know the question, just as I did.
RAK EM UP!
You know, I know this steak doesn’t exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize?
[Takes a bite of steak]
Ignorance is bliss.
RAK EM UP!
by VA_Skin on Jun 16, 2009 2:50 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
The Matrix is everywhere. It is all around us. Even now, in this very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work… when you go to church… when you pay your taxes. It is the world that has been pulled over your eyes to blind you from the truth.
RAK EM UP!
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