Washington Redskins Defeat Oakland Raiders In Front of Hundreds Of Oakland Fans
Okay, so it may have been more than a few hundred, but at one point on the national feed I could hear individual people clapping. Before the game you knew it was two teams playing for nothing. By the end of the game it was clear one team was acting like a group playing for nothing and the other was playing the part of a group trying to keep the party going. This Redskins team has found something to be sure. When I watch these guys I think, "Wow...this looks like an actual NFL team...this looks like teams around the league that know what they're doing."
We can spend all day kicking each other in the nuts wondering where this level of play has been all year. It is an exercise in futility, though. Here are a few thoughts on that subject:
1) We were still employing this new offensive system with players Zorn inherited from an old regime with a different philosophy.Is there really anything to this? I spent some time yesterday at Comcast Studios and kicked the idea around with those folks and one thing we talked about specifically was the fact that we are getting it done now with guys who were brought in since Zorn arrived and not prior to his arrival. (FYI--this means Vinny gets some credit which kills me.) This is not to suggest that Clinton Portis, Mike Sellers, Chris Cooley, Chris Samuels, Randy Thomas, Ladell Betts, or even Jon Jansen are or were guys incapable of thriving in Zorn's offense. I think what it means is that all these guys coming on and contributing now have been brought up in this new system over the last two years--Devin Thomas, Fred Davis, Malcolm Kelly....well, it would be hard/unfair to put guys like Mike Williams, Quinton Ganther, Levi Jones, and even Derrick Dockery in here, but the idea is that our lineup now is full of guys brought in to support the new ideology. Time for all of us to put on our cups, because Cerrato is most likely sticking around to work our nuts like a collective group of heavy bags.
2) Sherman Lewis is having a very positive impact.I am done with trying to read into what his level of involvement during the week means and whether or not he can be effective as a coach if he only speaks to Jason Campbell via candy-gram. The numbers tell us that since Sherman Lewis came on board, we have done better. Period. I still think you don't assume Zorn is useless in all of this. He is the quarterbacks guru and our quarterback is playing great, so he deserves credit. I don't believe for a second that he isn't partly responsible for this turn-around.
3) Hiring Zorn, implementing his offense and drafting players to fit it was sold to us as a 2-3 year investment. We are right in the meat of that investment and it appears we are getting some returns. I find it troubling to think that things are going according to (their) plan and they are considering starting over.
The game yesterday to me came down to two players. If you saw me on Comcast's Post Game Live (video to come), you would have seen me:
A) give it to Chick Hernandez a little about his earring; and
B) talk about Brian Orakpo and Jason Campbell.
Ganther, Davis, Carter, Landry...they all contributed, but I thought that it was fitting to highlight our best offensive player and our best defensive player and then underline the lunacy regarding the potential for JC to be somewhere else next season.
Orakpo was a beast. He personally accounted for somewhere in the neighborhood of 50-75 negative yards for the Raiders. Four sacks did not even tell the story of his day...how crazy is that?
Campbell was once again on fire. He threw the ball so accurately on the run yesterday (for the most part), I wondered aloud why they didn't purposely move him around more often (picture Mark Rypien rolling and throwing bombs.)
In the comments today, I thought we would try something a little different. I will start a few comment threads with some questions and everyone is encouraged to ask their own questions raising separate issues. Let's all pull together to gain some "public" opinion on these topics so we can determine the direction of the posts this week.
| Team Stat Comparison | ||
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|
| 1st Downs | 21 | 15 |
|
Passing 1st downs
|
11 | 11 |
|
Rushing 1st downs
|
7 | 3 |
|
1st downs from Penalties
|
3 | 1 |
|
3rd down efficiency
|
5-12 | 4-15 |
|
4th down efficiency
|
0-0 | 1-3 |
| Total Plays | 58 | 66 |
| Total Yards | 295 | 227 |
| Passing | 195 | 162 |
|
Comp-Att
|
16-28 | 20-34 |
|
Yards per pass
|
7.0 | 4.8 |
| Rushing | 100 | 65 |
|
Rushing Attempts
|
27 | 24 |
|
Yards per rush
|
3.7 | 2.7 |
| Red Zone (Made-Att) | 4-4 | 1-2 |
| Penalties | 7-45 | 14-118 |
| Turnovers | 1 | 1 |
|
Fumbles lost
|
1 | 0 |
|
Interceptions thrown
|
0 | 1 |
| Defensive / Special Teams TDs | 0 | 0 |
| Possession | 27:53 | 32:07 |
0 recs |
444 comments
|
Comments
Is Jason Campbell our franchise quarterback?
by Sugar on Dec 14, 2009 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hell to the mother fucking yeah he is.
He’s not a hall of famer, but he’ll get the job done for us given all the other puzzle pieces can contribute and help him be successful as everyone on here has heard/said before.
I just really need to see him lead a fourth quarter comeback drive or two.
by travisjh86 on Dec 14, 2009 10:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would still resign him
even without the 4th quarter comebacks this year, for the simple fact that I hope we don’t put ourselves in that position anymore.
I think Jason Campbell is a winner for this franchise if the right rebuilding steps are taken the next few offseasons. We don’t need a Brees or Brady-type to win games. That’s not Redskins football. Keep Campbell.
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 10:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Definitely
We have seen how Snyder goes for ALL the quarterbacks he can, and we can see how some of them have flopped. All I know is, Campbell has been showing some heart and showing what he is made of. He has the potential to always play like he has the past several weeks. We need to rebuild O line next draft. West Coast offense is still setting in. I just really hope Snyder doesn’t screw us over like he always does! Go Skins!
by HAIL2THEREDSKINS on Dec 14, 2009 7:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
has anyone ever won the superbowl with the west coast offense except san francisco? i mean they did have the best QB and receiver in the game at the time, and some of the best of all time!
we know ball control, play action and pound the football works most years
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 2:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And both
the Raiders and Seahawks made it there, but lost. Along with the Pack.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so 3 in about 30 games. packers had brett favre and tb had a hell of a def and played the coaches former team the year after he left.
i think this wco is much ado about nothing unless u have superior talent. much better route continues to be control the line of scrimmage and rest ur defense by controlling the clock.
though i am rooting for no this year (or brett- whoever wins)
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah.
How could we forget the Iggles?? They run the WCO, and they probably would have won the SB had the Pats not cheated.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, let's look at this in context:
As far as I can recall, the teams that have run a variation of the WCO include the Bengals, 49ers, Eagles, Seahawks, Buccaneers, Falcons, Redskins, Broncos, Packers, Raiders, Bills, and Lions. Am I forgetting any?
Of those teams, the 49ers won 5 SBs, the Broncos won 2 SBs and lost 3 more, the Packers and Buccaneers each won a SB, the Bengals lost 2 SBs, the Bills lost 4 SBs, and the Packers, Falcons, Seahawks, Eagles, and Raiders all lost 1 SB. (While running the offense)
For a league with only 12 teams who have EVER run the offense, that’s 9 Super Bowl wins and 14 Super Bowl losses for a total of 23 Super Bowl participants. I’ll maintain that you can stack that up against any other family of offense over the same period, and the WCO will hold its own.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Several on this site have suggested
that we are not really running a pure WCO – that it’s a little more smash-mouth in the running game and a little more stretched in the passing game. I don’t care as long as it continues to work and get better.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ironically- the non wco is the stuff that is working consistently!
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think
this is partly because teams haven’t seen it.
I have a sneaking suspicion that, besides red zone playcalling, (which really HAS improved) Spermin’ Sherm might be having success because teams don’t have a scouting report on him yet. Remember, the team had success early last season, too.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
You can see him getting better almost every game. I think he benefits from Zorn’s work load being lightened. He may never be Joe Montana, but he could be our…Jim Zorn? Again, you have to weigh the effects of making changes that may not be necessary. Do we really believe a high priced prima donna QB out of college is going to be better than JC? Factor in JC’s continued improvement over the rest of the season and the answer is a resounding NO.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
regardless,. i dont think any of them will be tough enough if we waste the 1st pick on a QB and dont really beef up that line. they need at least 3 legitimate starting quality linemen, probably 4 including both tackle spots because samuels/levi might count as one for maybe 2-3 years
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 2:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's almost, in my mind,
a moral imperative that we discontinue Ramsey-ing these poor kids. Worst that can happen is if Jason doesn’t work out after next year, we pick up Locker and have a line that can afford him some protection.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
only Almost?
I’m suprised JC’s not walking around Ashburn in a cape calling himself Batman by now.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 15, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I was leaving room for Clausen
I don’t have a moral issue with Notre Dame involved. :)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+ another 17
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+17
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 12:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For Clarification
Are you asking this question based on what we want to happen, or based on what we think will happen?
Do I want Campbell as our QB of the future? Yes, I most certainly do. As everyone knows, or at least should know, Campbell is a good QB when he is given time by the offensive line. He can make any throw you ask him to, like I said when he’s given time. No, I’m not saying he’s on the level of P. Manning, Brady, or Brees, but he can get the job done. I think Campbell can even shake the 4th quarter interceptions once/if he ever gets behind a good OL and gains more confidence.
Do I think Campbell will be back? Not so much. I think the QBs that are coming out of this draft are too enticing for Snyder to pass up. Even though I really truly hope he does.
by bigrm18 on Dec 14, 2009 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Need an O-Line
Completely Agree. Neither Peyton, Brees, or Brady could do what they do behind the O-line Jason has been Given.
by chap78 on Dec 14, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He could be
scary good with an O-line and unbelievably scary good in a couple of years as our WRs get better while working with him and the O-line.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, not because of athletic ability but understanding
As all players remain in the system they get better-Continuity works
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My point all season you can not name three Qb's in the league that could have withstood the pounding JC took yesterday.
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
he’s a tough mother.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
campbell represents the anti-snyder and wont be brought back for that reason alone
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 2:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
YES SIR
he is. You don’t get rid of a QB that trens UPWARDS through his career. We already spent a First Rounder for him, let’s get some more return on our investment instead of going out to deal ANOTHER first rounder!!
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 11:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
He’s STILL improving. Also, we spent MORE than a first rounder on him, since we had to trade back into the first round.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you are correct
my bad
Also, we spent MORE than a first rounder on him, since we had to trade back into the first round.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, it's not really your bad.
It reinforces what you’re saying even more.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
YES!
Aside from the fact that he has played very well for the most part this year, especially recently, and that he has shown he deserves to be back, I think the biggest question is who would replace him? Are they going to draft another QB and wait 2 or 3 years for him to develop? Are they going to sign a veteran QB? Who? Vick? Even if you are not a huge Campbell fan where are you going to find a veteran QB that is better then him?
by Basketnarb on Dec 14, 2009 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And
do we necessarily want to go out of our way to make some other team in the league significantly better than they are currently, while we go down hill while the new phenom learns to tie his own shoe laces.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so true
do we necessarily want to go out of our way to make some other team in the league significantly better than they are currently
why give away OUR first rounder to someone else and have him play his ass off for them?
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The ideal thing would be to
draft a QB for the future say a 3 year grooming period, just like Campbell was except not in the first round. It’s also insurance for Campbell should he go down with injury.
Unfortunately I think the decision has already been made to draft Clausen or Locker or even worse trade up for somebody, yikes!
Call this offense what you want but I don’t hear anyone calling it the WCO anymore. A couple of offensive lineman and a good running back to go along with what we have now and I think we can really compete for the division next year. Sadly though, Vinny will have it his way.
by skinsymets on Dec 14, 2009 11:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm thinking
I don’t hear anyone calling it the WCO anymore.
it’s more like a slash-mouth offense.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hear hear!
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 6:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's "OUR" QB, and should be next year
He is not a ‘franchise’ QB in the traditional sense
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NFL isn't very traditional anymore
I have no problem calling him “Our QB”
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
He’s is better than anyone coming out of the draft, he’s playing good football now, he’s got a rhythm with the sophomores, and he can give us 5+ more good years, assuming he’s healthy. The 4th quarter throws haven’t been there when we’ve been losing/tied, but I bet that would come if he were to receive a whole-hearted vote of confidence. Unfortunately, that vote is going to come in the form of a fat contract from the Panthers/Raiders/Browns/Rams etc. Too bad. I’d rather we went after Kevin Kolb or another backup than overpay for Jimmy Clausen.
By the way, Vinny interviewing Clausen was embarrassing.
by Smack27 on Dec 14, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The only time
By the way, Vinny interviewing Clausen was embarrassing.
since Snyder got here that this organization has shown any class was in the handling of Sean Taylor’s death. And you know a lot of that was Gibbs’ steerage.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, Not our Franchise quarterback
But a QB who can play well enough to take a team to the playoffs and beyond. He is not a leader and will never be a franchise type QB but in the Top-50% and as good as Rypien ever was…
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's been a leader during the circus this year
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Campbell has been a leader!
He has made something out of nothing with his runs quite a few times. Campbell can look awkward but he is faster than it seems. Very few quarterbacks can match his run yardage. The way he stood tall after getting hit in the chest a few games back was amazing. How can you think his team mates do not see that as leadership?
by Jefferson1935 on Dec 14, 2009 4:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, Campbell leads by example.
He’s not really a running QB, though. He’s got too much throwing talent. He’s a pocket guy.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But when he runs
he almost always gets the first down. Because he is tall he is deceptively fast because of the yds/stride. He has the luxery few QBs have in that he is feared more for his passing than his running – and then he kills you with it.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fo sho.
I wasn’t taking anything away from JCam. I was trying to make more or less the same point as you.
He’s like the kind of QB that Bill Parcells likes to get.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i respectfully disagree on his leadership. he is the perfect example of keep your mouth shut, nose to the grind, focus on what u can control and good things will happen. have u heard the public backing of his teammates? they go out on a limb for him. he is a winner and though maybe not the most talented, it will pay off for him this offseason. plus, he has won in college at least, unlike all the other qb mentioned save bradford. and i would keep him over bradford because at least his skills are known at the nfl level and we need to fill 6 starting positions!
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 2:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
To be fair,
he won in college with 2 1st round draft picks in the backfield, and one of the top defenses in the nation.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 11:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes he
CAN be. I have been on the fence with him the past 6 weeks, but I am now convinced that he can be a good QB. Great? No. But good. And we all know that a good QB can win you a Superbowl. The problem, that everyone knows about, is the lack of talent surrounding him. All of our “Good QB’s” that won SB’s for us had amazing talent surrounding them. NONE of them would have won with the team Campbell plays on now. Unfortunately, ALL of them played on teams assembled by a great GM.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sir,
your last sentence here seems to be implying that Vinny Cerrato is NOT a great GM…
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I believe so.
I have stated earlier that we need a different direction, But Even Brees stunk for a few years. That’s why he was shipped put of San Diego. They got really lucky that Rivers panned out. I also think that Zorn needs to stay. I know next year;s schedule is brutal, but let the kids grow with their daddy.
by brettpedigo on Dec 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't know why
but that statement was very awkward to me
but let the kids grow with their daddy.
maybe because I don’t have kids yet
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please Please Please keep JC
There aren’t 15 QB’s better than him in the league right now and he is coming into his own. Not to mention his ability to take a hit and get back up. One of the toughest most durable QB’s in the league which is very underrated IMO.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you are correct
One of the toughest most durable QB’s in the league which is very underrated IMO.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 1:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brees
was also shipped out of San Diego because he had shoulder surgery, and nobody was sure he’d ever be the same QB again.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
brees was decent when they traded him, but he did have a shoulder injury they weren’t sure about. they swapped 1 for 5 plus a late first rounder and i think a good kick returner. they had other problems!
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 2:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
same boat we are in actually- they needed several players
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 2:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hmmm....
I thought Brees went to Nawlins in free agency?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No. Jimmy Clausen is.
::throws up arms in despair::
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IDK
But he’s entertaining to watch when he is hot…
JJ Fe
by Rydaddy617 on Dec 14, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
translated
But he’s entertaining to watch when our running game is going…
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 2:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Jim Zorn the coach for this team for the next 5 years?
by Sugar on Dec 14, 2009 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I'm torn for Zorn
On the one hand, I really like the guy. I can root for him.
It seems he can get the team to step it up despite all the adversity of this season, though I think Jason and London, among others, are tremendous leaders and definitely deserve a lot of the credit.
I think Zorn still has a lot to do with developing the game plan and there is no argument that the offense is starting to click. It makes me nauseous when I think of the possibility of a brand new scheme next year. But thanks to the braintrust, we as fans cannot know exactly what Zorn’s role is anymore. Everything is so convoluted that they can spin it however they want in the offseason, either Zorn was part of the problem or he in fact was part of the solution, and we’ll just have to trust them.
One thing is for sure though, and this is why I’m torn, with the power he has had, he has consistently made bad game management decisions at the worst possible times all year long. He goes out of his way to say he calls two minute plays and makes decisions around the goal line, and they’ve been wrong. The timeouts are 100x better, and that is definitely a product of the offense as a whole operating more smoothly, but they’re still not perfect. And obviously all the injuries have made it difficult for him to have the ideal personnel on the field, but when things like Randle El returning punts and Moss running Corner routes are sooo obviously wrong to the fans and we keep seeing it every week, you have to wonder if he really gets it.
by Boo. on Dec 14, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
but in a limited role. No play calling; little game management until he’s had more experience. This is more of a defensive move than anything else. You just can’t expect anyone to come in and not change everything and set us back another 2-3 years. So give Zorn props for helping with the turnaround, but let’s be realistic about it. In a couple of years, he might blossom into a truly good HC with a good supporting cast.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 10:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He could be
as long as someone else is calling the plays. I think If they would have called in Spermin’ Sherman earlier in the season, this wouldn’t even be a question right now.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
You have to remember, Zorn went to QB coach to HC AND OC responsibilities. Even seasoned HCs more often than not have an OC to help game plan and call plays. Now we finally have it right organizationally as long as we keep an OC on board – hopefully Sherm L.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+10 billion little Sherms
glad to see this nickname catching on.
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You have
a fertile imagination.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Just trying to sow the seeds
of success for this franchise
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 1:04 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Gotta hand it to you
this franchise could use a stroke of good luck.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
This franchise is a few pick ups away
from busting out. We just need a few explosive players to really blow people out.
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah,
Zorn’s really had the players jacked up and ready to go lately.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
He's a very vocal leader
a heady coach that really gets guys up to play games.
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Yeah, you might say
his oral leadership skills are evident. He can be kinda anal about things sometimes, though.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well he has to be hard
given his reputation as a man who came in the backdoor to get his job.
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
True.
But I still think he can be proud of what he’s erected here, despite CP’s distracting ejaculations to the press.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Did this turn
Into a sex forum overnight?
by bigrm18 on Dec 14, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Well
Who needs porn at work when you can have the Redskins?
by bigrm18 on Dec 14, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought
one should go see a doctor if they caught a case of the Redskins?
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Only if you experience a Redskin
lasting more than four hours
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I thought your Redskin gets removed
when you’re circumsized?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Priceless
Rec’d all the way up the line.
by Boo. on Dec 14, 2009 4:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
jesus christ enough with the save zorn stuff
he clearly sucked donkey balls when he had any substantive responsibility. Literally, the scant but vocal # of Save-Jim-Zorners’ only defense of throwing him a bone for Lewis’s stupendous job in making our offense put more points on the board than the Yankees (as was under Zorn) is: “I can’t help but think partially, Zorn had something to do with this. I mean, he is still the QB coach. (Conspicuously absent is the fact that he was QB coach & O-coordinator when the Red Wings could score more than we could). Oh that Zorn, isn’t he a class act. And what a nice fella. What a breath of fresh air compared to King Snyder and the Resident Incompetent Weasel.”
Given the success Lewis has had, I think the logical, most intelligent (and appropriately our only option since no big-name coaches want to work under the collective Snyder + resident incompetent weasel Cerrato’s thumb) – move we next make should be to hire someone like Russ Grimm who will provide a more substantive role as head coach (plus added competence) and will very likely be okay keeping on Sherm to call the shots on the offense (as the interview the blog held a few months ago with the Cardinals’ blogger implied) but for the O-Line, which he no doubt can help, and needs the most emphasis for the foreseeable future.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 14, 2009 8:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This was not a good post !!! IT WAS A GREAT ONE !!!
Good Job keep it up .. Great, a person with a since of reason. I have been so sick of reading posts about how hard the players are playing for Zron (Zorn). I am curious did these same people forget they were asking for his head prior to Sherm L. All the tweaking on Offense has been Sherms doing nothing else has changed ?? So what part of Zron (zorn) turning around the team have I missed !
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 15, 2009 6:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again, Agenda speaking
No one is saying save Zorn because he has been or contributed to the recent offensive success. Some have questioned if he has contributed, but the point is the Redskins need to maintain continuity. No coaching changes during the off-season.
Unless, Vinny is going to be fired then changing anyone else has no real value other than the team taking another step back by having to start over AGAIN.
Keep Zorn, Keep Sherm, Keep Vinny Or
Fire Vinny and blow the entire thing up with a new GM calling all the shots.
by dr WNC on Dec 15, 2009 8:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Changes
Reasonable changes do not = radical discontinuity. We ought to resist biting on the impulse hire of a big-name HC like Holmgren or Shanahan, and hire a qualified, steadier hand to serve as our HC who, unlike Zorn, can truly perform his substantive responsibilities. In my opinion, the best series of moves we could plausibly make are: 1) Fire Vinny, 2) Fire Zorn, 3) Hire Grimm or someone like him, qualified but not someone who is hell-bent on bringing in all of his own staff in, 4) Keeping Sherm Lewis. The #1 is plausible but unlikely, since Snyder seemingly will keep anyone who kisses his ass, but 2-4 are realistic and reasonable i think
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 10:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A nice thought, but it would never work
At this critical juncture, where Jason is taking off in his career, with sophomore receivers just barely coming into there own, and the need this off season to build an O-line: All of that requires that we keep Zorn and his offense and his expertise in helping find the best lineman for it. Bringing Grimm in (my favorite if we blow it up) is still too much change and might result in the loss of Sherm L. Too risky now that we are on the brink of success.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Too risky now that we are on the brink of success"
You have got to be kidding me. We are what the record says we are. We played the Saints well because even though they’re an amazing team they’re running out of gas and playing every game close just like they just did a Falcons team with Chris Redman + without Matt Ryan + without Michael Turner, we played the mercurial Eagles who will lose to the Raiders one week then shoot it out with the Giants and win, and we beat one of the worst franchises in the NFL, the Raiders. This is the kind of misreading and shortsighted hope that Sugar warned against in one of his best posts ever last week:
http://www.hogshaven.com/2009/12/10/1194810/the-revolution-more-necessary
This kind of naive ephemeral hope from good losses at the end of a frustrating and patently bad season capped by a curb-stomping of the worst franchise in football by no means warrant the outrageous claim that “we are on the brink of success.”
My specific issue with what you are saying is this: You equate any moves on the coaching staff that would replace what doesn’t work and keep what does with the ridiculous coaching hires (Spurrier, Saunders, etc.) reminiscent of the past that were stupidly predicated only on how big their name was, which is clearly a vast overstatement & not the case with every change we could presently make to tweak what is bad and keep what is good – I sense that this sort of alarmism is just because you’re desperate to hold on to a win against the Raiders and a couple of “good losses”. I’m not that desperate to hold onto a win against the Raiders & a couple of “good losses” against a team that every third game doesn’t show up to play (PHI), and a Saints team that had never played in the cold & is playing even a woefully undermanned ATL team to a win by a field goal.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 2:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Somehow I think the humor
that was intended in the above exchange was lost of this guy.
by CarverM on Dec 15, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
I get that feeling, too.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its a shame
when someone chimes in and ruins a good string of sexual innuendos.
by CarverM on Dec 15, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if that was me
sorry if i was unable to catch the humor/innuendo, i don’t mean to use such a lame excuse but i’m in the heat of exams in grad school, so my mind works a bit more intensely/feverishly thsi time of year + my funny bone might be a bit blind until i finish these mofos’ next week
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 17, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
They need to pick up a heart
Like the kiddies had yesterday.
by brettpedigo on Dec 14, 2009 7:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Like others
I’m torn on Zorn (that should be put on a T-shirt). The fact that he is able to get this team to play well after all the loses is a sign of a good coach. However, decisions like keeping Randle El as the main punt returner is what keeps me from definitively supporting Zorn. It seems like he is too timid to completely shake things up if need be.
However, I think I’m leaning toward keeping Zorn because I believe he’ll become a better coach with more experience and more trust from the front office (if that is possible). More importantly, we’ve been hiring and firing coaches the past ten years like crazy. How about we keep a coach for more than two years for once? They say the definition of insanity is repeating a process while expecting different results. Let’s change it up for once.
by bigrm18 on Dec 14, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus
he’s not a fat slob like Holmgren or Andy Reid, to name a few.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or a brilliant coordinator who makes a horribly incompetent HC,
like both HCs in yesterday’s Dallas-San Diego game.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I still have nightmares of Turner and
wouldn’t put it past Snyder to “steal” Wade from Jerry just to spite him…
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I will be in San Diego Rooting them on!!!!!!!!
by brettpedigo on Dec 14, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Cool Beans
We’ll be counting on you to pull them thru.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also Torn
I’m just not sure. I have to admit that when he was first hired I was happy because I hate when teams just recycle the same 10 coaches who keep getting fired and I thought it was a welcome change from the big splash that Snyder normally goes for. Obviously I was thrilled when the team started 6-2 last year and then, like everyone, I realized that Zorn was in over his head as we spiraled downhill at the end of the year and the beginning of this year.
However ever since he stopped calling the plays the team has been remarkably better. I don’t think you can say that he was just calling the wrong plays and that was the problem, although it was certainly part of it. I’m trying to think of how many HCs call plays and I don’t think it’s that many. I think that for some reason, like being a GM & HC, it’s very hard to do both plus he is also the QB coach. So perhaps when he stopped calling plays he was able to focus on other things that really made a difference.
The one thing that have liked all along is that the players have never given up on him and that happens a lot in pro sports.
So I think we need to give more time to show us if this is real.
by Basketnarb on Dec 14, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
One more year. The offense is clicking, and whether he’s calling the plays or not, it’s his system.
by Smack27 on Dec 14, 2009 11:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But
I vote for John Fox as a replacement when they fire Zorn.
by Smack27 on Dec 14, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ew. He's been extremely mediocre in Carolina.
no mediocre retreads please
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Since when did it make sense to just let shi**y but nice guy Zorn
piggyback Sherman Lewis’s success? If he had any substantive authority Quinton Ganther would be throwing ducks at the other team’s DBs in the red-zone. It’s unbelievable this idea that we should just “develop” a coach, like we can A) afford to in the division we’re in or B) like it’s worth it, when non-big name + substantially more qualified coaches are available like Grimm, not to mention the absolute lack of merits Zorn has under his belt since he’s been here aside that he’s been the only face we have been able to hold accountable for the franchise’s lackluster play since he’s been here, and the fact that we like him because we like that we finally have someone we can complain to who sincerely seems to empathize with our pain. That doesn’t make him a good coach
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 14, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But you know what...
it’s working. Why risk anything else.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Zorn
Zorn is not a head coach, however I too am becoming one that keeping continuity at this position over the next 3 to 5 years maybe the best thing for the team.
So yeah, Zorn the not a head coach-head coach.
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually
he may just be a guy that has natural HC-type abilities without the underlying play calling attributes. I say this, because I just can’t help liking the guy for sticking things out and because the team didn’t tank. I really do not see any way we could be where we are today (meaning being competitive with the Saints and beating the Broncos, Raiders, etc.) without Zorn being a part of the solution.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
and as early as last week I was one who said Zorn had to go.
Either the players individual pride or Zorn’s involvement to have a team play like this team played last week and this week is the key to Zorn Staying.
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't you think the only major things that have changed are our Play Calling and Red Zone Efficency...
lets be honest with each other is this Zorns doing or Sherm Lewis’s ?
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 1:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually a question which needs answered and we do not have the inside information to answer the question
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We do know for a fact that the play calling and red zone offense has been on Sherm that is what he is responsible for
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes but
The offensive playes are still Zorn’s
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 2:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Some of the goal line passing plays are some of the same plays ..
Sherm used prior to coming to the skins also The routes have been changed in order to get players open according to Devin or Malcolm one. I saw one of them talk about it in a interview. Also we are now streching the field less dinks and dunks according to the new JC interview.
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not trying to attribute
our team’s improvement to Zorn. Getting Sherm was awesome and the reason why we are doing better with the play calling and Red Zone Efficiency (100% yesterday).
I’m saying he is now doing more HC things that have helped (Not OC things). And, we have the issue of what is the alternative? Anyone who comes in is going to fire the coaching staff, put his people in place, get rid of Jason…etc. I mean do you really want that to happen. We need continuity and I can live with Zorn for that reason alone now that the game planning, red zone eff. etc. are up to NFL standards or even better.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I don’t think Zorn is a HC but you can’t bring in another HC and keep the same offensive system so for the sake of continuity we keep Zorn. It does seem to be working, so give it another year with an off-season focuse on building and offensive line.
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You could
bring in another branch of the same tree? Say, Gruden, for example?
The problem is, if we brought in Gruden, we’d wake up the next day with like 5 QBs. Gruden LOVES collecting QBs.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 2:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No Gruden!!
He is a destroyer of teams. We’ve gotten this far with a coach that the players will play hard for. Let’s try continuity for a change and see where this leads us. Anything else requires at least 1 huge step backwards.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
I was just saying that just because you get a new HC doesn’t necessarily mean you have to tear down the whole system.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I see your point
but there are limited options for the swap meet, and all of them suck IMO. Gruden, Shanny, Holmgren. Anyone else out of Holmgren’s tree? I’ve stated before why I don’t like these guys and why they won’t get hired anyway.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Sherman?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sherman ? Sherm Lewis
Huh? A head coach instead of Offensive Consultant?
The Washington Redskins announced Oct. 6 that they hired longtime NFL assistant coach Sherman Lewis as an offensive consultant for head coach Jim Zorn.
Lewis, a 22-year NFL coaching veteran, brings a history of success and a vast knowledge of the West Coast offense, in addition to four Super Bowl rings.
"Sherm Lewis is an outstanding coach who has been an instrumental member of four Super Bowl championship teams," Redskins Executive Vice President of Football Operations Vinny Cerrato said. "Sherm’s history started with the innovator of the West Coast offense, Bill Walsh, and over the past two decades he has directed some of the best offenses, and coached and developed some of the league’s premier players. He has a diverse NFL background, having coached running backs, wide receivers, and serving as a coordinator.
“Jim and Sherman share a common bond in that they both worked for Mike Holmgren at different times in their careers. Sherman’s overall experience and expertise will be a tremendous addition to our coaching staff. His track record humbles us all."
That may work!
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 4:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, not Sherman Lewis.
Mike Sherman. Former HC of the Packers, after Holmgren left and before being replaced by Mike McCarthy.
Before being HC, he was Holmgren’s OC.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh yeah.
And he’s HC at Texas A&M right now.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah Yeah
But if everything is to Stay the same, why not Sherman lewis
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 7:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not advocating firing Zorn or hiring Mike Sherman.
Scott E asked if there were any other free agents from the Holmgren coaching tree. I pointed out Mike Sherman to answer his question.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 7:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm advocating firing Zorn and hiring Russ Grimm
if Zorn’s temperment when he talked to us was more like a hot-tempered prick like Jim Mora, and he performed as unforgivably as he did, losing quite pathetically against winless opponents with clearly inferior talent on both sides of the ball and defenses as astoundingly weak and soft as Detroit, Kansas City, St. Louis, Tampa Bay, and Carolina, I don’t think the small but vocal minority of “Save Jim!” advocates would be nearly as vociferous in their defense of this clearly overmatched guy who is just not built to be a HC in the NFC East.
What does this say? We’re more willing to throw him a bone, because he’s just seems like a nice guy who’s down on his luck. When it comes down to forwarding actual, material merits for keeping him on, the debate ceases to be. Because there is no meritorious argument for keeping Jim Zorn, except that he’s a nice fella so some of us really want to assume he has ‘learned’. Maybe we can develop him so we don’t have to fire him - even though we have zero examples (for a damn good reason) of NFL teams, much less NFC East NFL teams, mortgaging years of competitiveness and the name of their franchise on “developing” a head coach.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 14, 2009 8:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why the Hell
do you keep posting “fire Jim Zorn” comments in reply to random posts in this thread?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 12:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1. It’s in Sugar’s post
2. Your previous statement indicated you’re ambivalent about firing JZ
3. I have some intense ass graduate school exams and don’t have time to spend all hours of the weekend to chat it up in real time
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 4:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
3.5 Therefore I post in re to comments I see that indicate either advocate keeping Zorn like Sugar’s (good, like usual) article or your ambivalent statement towards firing/keeping him on, because I don’t have enough time to spend Sunday & Monday chatting live here with SB Bloggers
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 4:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And with a Russ hire
Then what
Which offensive system, the one which Arizona ran last night against the 49ers
Which defensive system, Blache or a 3-4 defense
90% of the commentors on this site would love to have Russ Grimm as head coach over Jim Zorn but more importantly and realistically we want the Redskins to be competitive and winners. It seems keeping the Status-quo with all it’s faults is a better solution than starting over with a big name coach or an old Redskin.
As long as Danny and Vinny are in the Front office the best thing for the Front office to do is nothing…
by dr WNC on Dec 15, 2009 8:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then
if the answers of the Cardinals’ blogger to one of the blogmasters here during our interview with him are accurate, the implication is that Grimm is not going to demand the reins of the offensive coordinator/any of the offensive game except for responsibility over the offensive line. Logically, if that is true, we would be replacing Zorn with Grimm and keeping Lewis on as offensive coordinator. Also, trying to cherrypick the Cardinals defecation of the bed last night against the 49ers and imply that that’s our future if we make a change in Grimm’s direction is a little lame. As for the defense, that would ideally be up to Grimm’s discretion. In my opinion Blache is A) an unaccountable ass who emphasized that by coming out of self-imposed hiding just to defend and kiss the ass of another unaccountable shi*, King Snyder, and B) i think the outstanding personnel on defense could be utilized even better, neither of which are worth retaining, but it’s only my opinion. I don’t think there’s some radical discontinuity if we lose Zorn and/or Blache and keep Lewis
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 10:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it’s about not biting on a blatant impulse move such as hiring a Holmgren & Shanahan who will introduce a new offense and try to mold the franchise/team in their own image only to butt heads with idiot Snyder and weasel Cerrato. I think there is some reasonable valence to replacing the parts that cannot perform any substantive duties up to par with other NFC East HCs (like Zorn) or can’t get the defensive unit to play as aggressively as they should given the personnel we have to do some serious damage (like Blache). The Zorn option is damningly clear, the Blache choice is equivocal and would be Grimm’s call.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 10:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i do agree that Snyder & Cerrato will do what they can to impede the development of a “team”, i think i’ve only seen/heard one person on this blog defending them outright (and it sure as hell wasn’t me), but that doesn’t mean that the best & only way we can mitigate the damage they do is by clasping on to Zorn like he’s a liferaft from the Titanic & treating any change as equalling radical discontinuity. We can still have continuity if we don’t bite on the impulse hire of a big-name head coach, don’t hire someone who’s woefully unqualified and can’t perform any of the substantive duties of a head coach, and hire as HC a qualified and much steadier hand who can perform the genuine substance of his responsibilities.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 10:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agree
And with all of that, as bad as the status-quo is it’s better than what will happen when Danny and Vinny get involved.
If Vinny is still GM then, no change is the best change.
I would love for Grimm to be the Head Coach, but I don’t believe it will ever happen with Danny and Vinny.
by dr WNC on Dec 15, 2009 10:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
:(. Any -quo is better than when Danny and Vinny get involved. I’ll take the worst years under the next Mr. Cooke than the best from Mr. Snyder. it would be so nice to get up one day and see “Cerrato fired from Redskins” wouldn’t it? Haha, help us god!
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 10:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How do you know?
Grimm has never been an HC…so we’re back to square -1 in having to train a new HC; square -2 if he fires Blache; square -10 if he and Sherm L don’t get along. You are riding a minimal change argument with a powerful engine and no brakes. Good luck to us all.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 12:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps that came off a bit too confrontational.
1. I would have expected it in response to Sugar’s question, then. I was confused as to why it was listed as a reply elsewhere.
2. I’m not ambivalent to firing JZ, I’m AGAINST it, but I was explaining why I mentioned Mike Sherman. Not as a potential head coach, just in answer to a question.
3. Fair ’nuff. Good luck with those.
3.5. Again, fair enough.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 1:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
answers
Scott E:
1. Grimm has been the assistant HC and offensive line coach for a team whose offensive line went from absolute rags to riches plainly due to his eye for talent and training. Zorn was a quarterbacks coach on a team whose HC notoriously never shared the responsibilities for the offense with any other coach. In other words, Holmgren is infamous for not sharing any aspect of the reins of the offense. Zorn was essentially a hood ornament riding it, and there is no conclusive proof that he made an impact of any substance the way Grimm engineered a turnaround with equally bad ownership (the Bidwills) without being handed wads of cash to get the job done quickly & poorly.
2. “Train” a coach? Seriously, what serious organization would consider ‘training’ a coach. The NFL, much less the NFC East, isn’t exactly a place where you should mortgage the contracts and reputation of your team on trying to develop a coach the way you would a single-A baseball player. That is a flat-out wrong & embarrassing suggestion without precedent for obvious reasons.
3. You say if he fires Blache we’re back to square something. I don’t see how that makes any sense. The real sense of upheaval on the team stems from its history of inept coaches who could not perform any substantive duties and a series of offensive coordinators who could not generate points. Zorn, Sherman Smith, Al Saunders, the list is immense and makes this painfully obvious, but i won’t go on this post is long enough.
- My main problem with your approach is how it equates any form of change with radically disruptive continuity. I think you are overcompensating for the hare-brained, big-name signings Snyder has made in the past and hugging onto whatever we’ve got in some blind hope that it’s actually doing something because it’s the opposite of what King Snyder has done in the past
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 1:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, I am going to play "Devils Advocate" lets say we keep Zron ( Zorn) like you want..
Do you think that if we start winning he wil not try and takea larger role in our team ? Can he sit back and not be a control freak and let the Coaches do their jobs. The issue that I had with Zorn was that he was to conservative.
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Snyder and Cerrato
would not let that happen. They keep everyone on a short leash as it is.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope you are right if it happens. But more than likely we will both be wrong...
Zorn and Campbell out the door (Open) >>>>>Kick
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Campbell is not going anywhere
Campbell is not going anywhere unless the team he is going to is giving up Picks. The Redskins will place a franchise offer (RFA) on him.
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Think so?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Name a team who would give up a draft pick to sign Campbell
I can’t think of anyone. If someone is willing to give up a 2nd or 3rd rounder than yes he will be gone otherwise he’ll be here…
It makes no sense on a business stance to let Campbell just walk out the door when the Redskins can get compensation for him over the next 2 years as a RFA. The Redskins can relase Collins and pay Campbell to be the back up…
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think alot of teams would trade a second rounder
or maybe more for an established QB who will be much better than any rookie the next 2 years. I would do it in a second if I was Minny. I think you are undervaluing JC especially as he is the best QB to become available since Brees. Lots of teams would rather trade for Campbell than roll the dice on a rookie. Especially if they don’t pick in the top 10.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you are right...
San Francisco
Denver
Chicago? Hahahahahah
St. Louis
Vikings – if they win SB; Favre won’t be back
NYJ if Sanchez does not improve
Carolina – Cowher would like JC I bet
Raiders (poor JC!!)
Kansas City??
Just some thoughts…
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 3:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
also trading for Campbell is a safer pick for a GM
than banking your job on some guy coming out of the draft. Never underestimate guys wanting to keep their jobs safe.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's also true.
….then again, that’s also the way the Danny justifies his free agent spending.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then you have to listen
The Redskins can get a 2nd rounder for Campbell then I do think they will take it.
Denver-No
Chicago-No
St louis maybe
Vikings-No
NyJ-No
Carolina-Possible
Raiders-Possible
Kansas City-Maybe
Forgot Buffalo
Not a lot of choices so yes, if they go that route then Campbel will go to another team.
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nobody will trade a 2nd for JC
you guys are crazy
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you undervalue JC and what people will pay for starting QB's in the league
IMHO
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
a 5th year QB
who’s perfectly average in every single stat?
Nobody will give up a 2nd for that. Only dumbass teams like us do things like that.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not quite.
He’s got a pretty low int/pass ratio.
You’ve also got to consider the supporting cast. Look what happened when Kyle Orton and Jay Cutler switched places?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
average with no line and one complimentary receiver…people will pay for it…also forgot cleveland
plus he is a pure drop back QB that can scramble playing in some funky version of the west coast offense. he has played his best ball as the offense has moved gone more traditional.
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 2:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why should we accept a 2nd rounder
when we paid for Jason with a 1st round pick, plus traded up to get back into the 1st round again. Then we spent all these years training him.
It’s absolutely unforgivable that we let him go under any circumstances. And with a good O-line, imagine what that would due to his performance and the size of LJPs pre-nuptial agreement with him!!! LOL
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
we paid more than a first rounder for jason
as Dbacks reminded me yesterday
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 15, 2009 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NO
for now. If we somehow win the next 3 games, then I may reconsider. But I am still heavily in favor of having a coach with a clue.
Wow. Just read what I wrote. The next 3 GAMES? Holy shit. What if we could knock the Giants, the Cowbums, AND Nerv out of the playoffs? That would put a smile n my face going into the offseason. OK, OK, I know it’s unlikely. And would be a miracle for San Diego to lose 3 straight while the Broncs win 3 straight, but straner things have happened. NOW I have something to wish for in this season
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With you on the Giants and Girls
I’d rather see denver implode, although Redskins winning 3 would be nice!
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 12:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah
I I hate the Broncos too, but it sickens me to see Nerv doing so well. NOTHING will ever convince me he is a good coach.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
even Marty Schottenheimer won with the Chargers.
Imagine if they had someone like Belichick. They’d be…. well, basically, they’d be the Saints.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Zorn has the skills, but
they are more of the thinking things through and doing the right thing people-wise, organizationally, and his system rather than the game-time, pressure decisions. We just don’t see him doing the things that are helping make it work; only the DOH! timeouts, etc.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No fire him
If your gonna castrate him you might as well go all the way and fire him. Him having limited responsibilities next year is a stop-gap measure not a means of success.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I meant
limiting him to just HC duties; not the OC, too. I know it looked bad, but getting an OC in there was the right thing to do and I believe we can move forward with Zorn in the HC role. Anyone you bring in is going to blow everything up and that means getting rid of Jason, going with a rookie etc etc. I just don’t want to go down that road now that things are looking better.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so he would make
a good player personnell/development guy, but still doesn’t cut it as HC. I want a coach who knows what’s going on and SHOWS that he knows it. You don’t think it gives other HC’s confidence to look across the field and see Wonder boy with that lost puppy look, speaking into a mike that’s probably not even plugged in?
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, but
that’s pretty standard. In general, the BEST coaches are the guys you never notice until they make a mistake.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
until Zorn
starts wearing a ballcap, EVERYBODY will notice him.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thnak yuo LPJ
Zron is clueless
Classic!
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 1:30 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm calling him Zron from now on.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sounds like
the sequel to Tron.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Norv might get an extension in San Diego
he gets Aikman in Dallas and Rivers in San Diego….yet when he was here we had Heath Shuler, John Friesz, Rich Gannon, Stan Humphries, Gus Frerotte, Trent Green, Jeff Rutledge, Jeff Hostetler, Cary Conklin, Tony Banks, Rodney Peete, Kent Graham, Tim Hasselbeck, Rob Johnson, Jeff George, Brad Johnson, Danny Wuerffel, Patrick Ramsay, Shane Matthews…..oh god….I know all these guys did not play for Norv, but I got carried away with the list of QB’s who came through here in the last 15-20 years or so. Holy Crap. Brett Favre has started every game in almost that entire span.
Serenity now!!!!
by Sugar on Dec 14, 2009 3:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
did u say coach or GM??? the latter comes first
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 2:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no
His offensive expertise flopped until Sherm showed up to bail him out and his game management skills are deplorable. Would this even be a question if Sherm hadn’t rescued him?
While I’m not thrilled with another HC change I’m also not willing to stick with somebody who has proven himself to be totally inept.
What does Zorn do anymore? He doesn’t call plays or manage the clock well and it sounds like he’s only marginally involved with game planning. What does that leave, other than being pummeled by VC?
If Zorn is going to stay then make him the real HC so we can actually see if he is part of the solution or part of the problem. Making a HC without any real HC powers is silly – he just because a bureaucrat and we have plenty of those in the area already.
by aFan4Life on Dec 14, 2009 2:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we all would benefit
by going thru a week of what this organization does to run the team and prepare the game plan. My guess is that Zorn is still the HC in everyone’s mind and they thank the lord that he is out of the OC hybrid role that never should have happened. He was probably hurting the team in the hybrid role, but with Sherm in there translating Zorn’s schemes into game plans and play calling – voila! We excel. I think we gain a lot by at least letting this play out for another year. With added talent in the O-line on top of our recent games, I think we have some reason to have genuinely do-able expectations for next year. If not, blow it up.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 6:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does the current performance of this team change your opinion of the front office?
by Sugar on Dec 14, 2009 10:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
No.
The front office did not give Jim Zorn a playoff-caliber roster. We were struggling even before the big injuries along the offensive line. Then, when Samuels and Thomas did go down, there was a period there when we didn’t have the personnel on the roster to protect our quarterback. I remember Cerrato stating once that they anticipated those two guys going down, since they are old and got injured last year, but they still didn’t have suitable talent behind them, Guys like Batiste should never be your primary backup to your LT.
Another reason for our struggles were the FO’s fault. Our team has done much better since Zorn had his load lightened a bit. I don’t see that as Zorn being a bad coach, but more the FO having unrealistic expectations, putting too much on Zorn and ultimately not setting him up for success.
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 10:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Only if
Vinny and Snydepiece decide to keep Zorn on for another season, at least — albeit with Sherm Lewis as OC.
Even Satan thinks Scott Boras is evil.
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Snyder will always be a capitalistic shakedown the fans ass. Cerrato will always be a dumbass. Agree with DbacksSkins, if they keep Zorn and Jason and focus on O-line in the draft, etc then I will cut them some slack. But…if they blow it up right when we see the ship righting itself and moving forward….I don’t even want to go there.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not in the least
we’re in the mess in the first place because our front office refused to see the writing on the wall with our O-Line. And what really bothers me, is that a lot of people will become complacent because they see things click right now. Forgetting that Levi Jones will not be a decade long LT for us, and that our RG situation still hasn’t been adequately fixed. Mike Williams should be a back up, a competent one, but just a back up.
I know all this, you all know this, but our front office doesn’t seem to get it. Just because our receivers are panning out now, does not mean that offensive linemen were not needed.
The FO gets no sympathy from this fan.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 11:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
absoutely not…what is the front office directly and solely responsible for ???
1- cap management- they are a disaster and bent every rule they could. we wont have the flexibility to resign our important contributors because of all the dead cap money.
2- bringing in prospective players— they really have failed to address 6 starting positions out of about 25. our best offensive linemen are all old. our young linemen are bad. and we dont even have a free safety on the team. the O line has been a problem for over 5 years and free safety for what 2 full seasons?
3- game experience- suing fans and restricting freedom of expression when it does not fit you is pretty scummy
4- face of the franchise? what do they represent- unaccountable jerks that dont know how to treat people consistently decently
so yes, vinny has brought in some good players and some bad players. he has REALLY wasted a lot of money and draft picks on poor acquisitions, consistently. what is the net result—-a horrible record for 10 years, including another losing season this year. quite frankly, i think just about anyone on this site would do just as well- and most better- with a ESPN draft/free agent guide and some cap guidance.
by les boulez bomber on Dec 14, 2009 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not that I'm supporting the FO in any way shape or form
But this franchise has to be praying for an uncapped season. Not to sign free agents so much, but as a blindly lucky, once-in-a-lifetime “get out of Cap Jail free” card. Being able to clear out Portis, ARE and possibly absorb a hit if Samuels retires as well would be HUGE.
by d_c_guy on Dec 14, 2009 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We need to save the nuts
the blind squirrels got us if we have any hope of improving long term.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Saving the nuts should be considered a priority.
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 1:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah the uncapped year would be best used for dumping bad contracts
not signing guys. What alot of people don’t realize is that if their is an uncapped year there will also be the worst FA pool in recent memory. Guys like JC, Rogers, and Rocky go from unrestricted to restriced FA. Every team will have similar guys locked up so the FA pool will be horrible. Kinda Ironic.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 3:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uncapped year WOULD be a blessing, assuming...
The FO truly understand which players to let go vs. keep…
I’ll take the under on that one…
by chbooth_66 on Dec 14, 2009 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nicely said...
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 6:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty much
Like everyone else has said, NO.
The front office just does not get it. Over the years, they’ve been building a group of individuals and putting them together. However, organizations like the Colts, Ravens, Patriots, Steelers, etc… know how to build a TEAM. A team that is full of competent young backups, young starters, and capable veterans sprinkled in here and there. We have a sprinkle of young players, undrafted free agents/off the street-free agents, and a heap of veterans past their prime.
Until they learn how to build a team of our own players(and not free agents from the street or from other teams) and groom them into Washington Redskins, become a playoff contender for several years in a row, and learn to become patient and build continuity with the team and coach, they will never change my opinion of them.
The first step is being patient with Zorn and Campbell and keeping them next year, and then building up the team’s holes this offseason.
by bigrm18 on Dec 14, 2009 11:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
The second year receivers are playing better. Then I tuned into Ealges Giants and watched DeSean Jackson, another second rounder we could have had. Our line is still poor. And think of all the money tied up in running backs and slightly above average defenders.
by Smack27 on Dec 14, 2009 11:32 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
However,
I WILL give the FO this — I’ve been straight-up impressed by the positional depth of this team this season. The fact that we’re still competitive with all the injuries we’ve had to star players is, well, some testament to the roster Vinny’s constructed. In past years, especially over the last decade or so, we haven’t had much depth. If Clinton Portis goes down in 2005, for example, there’s NO WAY we make the playoffs.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think Vinny made a concious
decision to sacrifice O-line depth so we would be deep in other places. Also, they decided to build a premier D while hoping the O could trot along and just do enough to win. May have worked had they got Sherm Lewis involved earlier. But, it has been almost a blessing that certain individuals got hurt. Speaking of Portis, whom I believe was a canker sore, and a few other vets who gave the new kids a chance.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
geeze
whom I believe was a canker sore
tell me how you really feel
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, maybe
a little harsh – but I attribute a lot of the team’s demise over the last half of last year and this year until he got hurt to his selfishness and not willing to give up touches (clearly he had a Gibbs mindset) as Zorn was implementing a more pass-oriented system. Going to Snyder behind Zorn’s back, if true, was reprehensible. Finally, the whole thing about not needing or wanting to practice and stay in shape when he was obviously wheezing on the ground half the game….and well….it is what it is.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not disagreeing with you
but damn, that was a little harsh for a Monday morning after a win. lol
Obviously he needs to give up touches, and practice during the week. If he can’t cut/trade/bench his ass.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
confused
If Clinton Portis goes down in 2005, for example, there’s NO WAY we make the playoffs.
But he was one of the top backs in the league that year, who our offense was built around. Of course him going down would have hurt us. Just like AP going down would hurt Minnesota. I just don’t see how the playoff have any relevance here. We’re not going to the playoffs, and I hate to say it, but even if these guys had been playing the whole year, I don’t think our record would be much different. This front office still values wide receivers over O-lineman, CB’s and safeties over D-linemen, fullbacks over runningback depth, and free agents over draft picks.
No, I think this little resurgence we’re seeing is DESPITE Vinny, not because of him.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not a very good example.
Nobody denies that those weaknesses and shortcomings are still there. I’m only comparing Vinny to Vinny with what I said — the roster is deeper now than at any point since he’s been a talent evaluator.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'll give you that
WE sure could have used this WR depth against Seattle in the playoffs. Same with the D-line. But we’re still lacking on the O-line, at RB, and linebacker. The first two for lack of drafting, and the last because we draft players who can’t play. Sure, everyone misses sometimes, but there are mid-round linebackers STARTING all over the league, not to mention the depth and special teams ones.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Secondary, too.
Outside of 1st/2nd round picks that a monkey could make, I don’t think Vinny is particularly good at judging defensive talent. Maybe it’s our scouting dep’t, but Vinny is ultimately in charge of that.
I was FURIOUS during the draft this year that, with all our picks, we didn’t take A SINGLE FREAKING OFFENSIVE LINEMAN.
Idiotic.
BUT….. anyway, back to the discussion at hand…. yeah. The roster depth has gotten better than earlier in Vinny’s tenure.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not a chance
this is still the same FO that hasn’t drafted a first round O-lineman in 9 years, has drafted 1 first round D-lineman (then quickly moved him to SLB), and drafted only one RB (Rock was drafted as a FB) Those positions are the foundation of good teams, ESPECIALLY good Redskins teams. Meanwhile we’ve drafted TWO first round QB’s, without supplying them adequate protection. We’ve also drafted 2 top ten safeties, which NOBODY does. (Yes, Taylor was DEFINITELY worth it). The most perplexing is drafting the third best CB over the 2 great pass rushers in the ‘05 draft, one of which kills us playing for our arch nemesis, and the other of which was a local talent. You’d think that Snyder would have realized the marketing opportunities in having a homegrown superstar.
Now, I know what some of you will say – “Vinny wasn’t the GM all this time.” Sure this is true. But in the 10 years Danny has owned the team, Vinny has been the most dominant voice in his ear. So whether it’s as an advisor, team president, or GM, Vinny has had a hand in the VERY numerous mistakes this front office has made over the past 10 years. Mistakes that 1 draft class will not make up for. This team needs to change the way it has operated over the past decade, and since Snyder’s not going anywhere, Vinny needs to get the boot.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NO
Their inability to get decent backups for Samuels and Thomas cost us the season plain and simple. Cerrato is a decent talent evaluator but a sycophantic yes-man. We’ve assembled some decent talent and are playing well now but I don’t feel any different about the FO than I did about them after Detroit.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think decent
is stretching it. You’re looking at the guys who have panned out, but in the grand scheme, that’s still a relatively small fraction of the players he’s acquired. Good teams are built with mid round draft picks. We’ve wasted WAY too many picks n the likes of Dallas Sartz , Cody Glenn, Eddie Williams, Durant Brooks, Kili Lefatu, Kevin Simon, Manuel White, Nehemiah Brougton, Robert McCune. Maybe Vinny wasn’t the the one who pulled the trigger on some of those guys, but he’s a big part of the same system that brought them in.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Awww.
I miss Kili. Really nice guy, with a wonderful family.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I actually think
eddie williams can do something for us when sellers leaves
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
and maybe Rinehart will pan out. But those are two more names to add to the list of maybes. Unfortunately, Kelly still tops that list, along with Tryon, Barnes, Henson, Rob Jackson, and don’t forget Colt Brennan.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
don't mention that name in here
and don’t forget Colt Brennan.
It’s not the offseason yet, and I don’t want them to start early. I have nothing but confidence in Kelly, as he essentially is one year behind the other two because of his injury and still manages to do what we had him advertised to do (go over the middle and catch the ball for the first down.
Same goes for Tryon, it looks like things are finally clicking for him. Barnes looks like a gamer, but the big lights are still making him nervous so give him a little more time to season.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
with everything you said. I like all of those guys. I was a BIG proponent of Tryon, but he’s proven himself this year. Kelly I actually liked better than Thomas and Davis at first. And I do think he has the tools and the attitude to be good. All he’s missing is the opportunity. I think he has the best hands on the team, and it frustrates the hell outta me everytime I see ARE drop a ball across the middle, knowing that should be Kelly in there. Sorry about (unnamed QB whose cult status WAY outweighs his career stats)
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm salivating
for the day when I get to see Malcolm Kelly catch all the balls across the middle for huge gains that ARE dropped.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 2:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Passes thrown by
(unnamed QB) of course!
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 2:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Kelly , has great hands it looks like he has stick um on them..
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ala Hothands Hayman
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All those late rounders that didn't pan out
is no big deal CJ. No one hits on all their late rounders. Guys being picked at those spots rarely make a team and flourish I think he has a good average at those slots. Horton, Golston, Montgomery, Doughty, Kareem Moore, Marko Mitchell, Blades. He has been solid on the first 3 rounds as well with Barnes too early to tell and the jury out on Rhino. I think Cerratto hits on late rounders more than most GM’s in the league.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my mind wants to agree
but every time I begin to type it, I smack myself back to reality.
I think Cerratto hits on late rounders more than most GM’s in the league.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He is a man of few positives
you can give him a little credit and still kill him for his many failings.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't Morocco Brown
do the drafting in the late rounds?
by ronoD nagrO on Dec 14, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you have stats to back this up?
I think Cerratto hits on late rounders more than most GM’s in the league.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The other thing is,
would these late round guys be playing for any other non-Detroit non-St. Louis non-Oakland team? I mean, if you “hit” with a 7th round guy simply because your 1st-6th round guys all missed, does it really count as hitting?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
only one I know
definitely is a yes is Horton, maybe doughty. Marko, most likely with a team that has no receiver help. Not a knock against him, I think he’s gonna be something good for us.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Horton
isn’t very good at covering receivers, only at playing up at the line. Even so, he could probably still play SS for maybe a third of the teams in the league. Doughty, I have less faith in.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
as far as coverage
I trust him a lot more than landry. the mistakes he made in coverage are correctable. I don’t see him get burned on the regular.
If it wasn’t for Horton in coverage, we would have lost against the rams. his mistake against the lions was also in coverage, but that’s only because he didn’t turn his head around in time, a mistake but one that can be fixed.
This is only his second year, and for him to be playing at the level he does is astounding. I really hope he’s with this team for a long time.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ooh,
how this comment makes me miss #21. :-(
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i have stats for you…they have had a losing or near losing record for 18 straight years and never seriously competed past the first round of the playoffs
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 3:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who?
The ’Skins?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 11:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is Greg Blatche the long-term DC for this team?
by Sugar on Dec 14, 2009 10:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think even he
wants to be the long term DC. I think we need to promote Gray but handle the whole thing with some class – as in don’t force Blache out, but work with him and Gray to have a smooth transition. Then I’ll hope to see a pass rush like we had yesterday every Sunday. WooHoo!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 11:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jerry Gray
I saw ideas floating around that Jerry Gray should be promoted and I think that’s a good idea. Don’t get me wrong, Blache is a damn good coordinator. Extremely stuck in his ways, but he has done this defense right, despite a could of shortcomings (Blitzing).
But, Blache is getting older and I think there is nothing wrong as long as we respectfully deal with the transitions from Blache to Gray. He’s been very good to us for Snyderatto to treat him like he’s nothing.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He also
stuck up for Snyder in the media. Now THAT takes balls.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
either that or he's a kissass
More likely the latter. He’s not been able to generate turnovers like he probably should have been able to with the excellent, and deep, personnel we have on defense. Either a question of Blache scheming far too conservatively, or not providing the motivation to get our B+/A- defense to play with the fire necessary to turn the ball over. He also went into hiding after he anticipated some fair criticism early on in the season. Therefore, it’s a very logical inference that the only reason he came out of hiding was to defend a similarly unaccountable cog in the franchise’s dysfunctional coaching & front-office lines, his boss, Mr. Snyder. Not to mention Blache’s ‘argument’/kiss-ass snowjob in defense of Snyder was woefully atrocious and stupefying.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 14, 2009 8:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I dunno if you recall this or not,
but the inability to create turnovers has been a criticism of our defense for the better part of the last decade. It’s NOT just Greg Blache’s scheme.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
are you kidding me?
Williams’s personnel essentially comprised of Taylor, who was just learning how to play his position when the tragedy struck, Daniels who was perpetually injured and out, Fletcher for a season or 2, Carter who can’t play without a Haynesworth taking up multiple o-linemen, and a mishmash of Archuleta-types who couldn’t force a fumble from a machine for them like Slaton or Warner. If you think simply because the criticism stayed constant that its valence is identical, you might do better to think again. Consider, if Gregg Williams had Albert Haynesworth + Orakpo + DeAngelo Hall and the rest of the deep group we have now, given what he has demonstrated he is capable of scheming with the Saints, would your answer be the same? Thank you.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 4:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Williams’s personnel essentially comprised of Taylor, who was just learning how to play his position when the tragedy struck,
….which makes him different from LaRon Landry how? And Taylor was MUCH more talented than LL.
Fletcher for a season or 2,
So, no change in personnel there….
Carter who can’t play without a Haynesworth taking up multiple o-linemen
You mean the same Carter who had 10.5 sacks, 4 forced fumbles and a safety in 2007?
given what he has demonstrated he is capable of scheming with the Saints, would your answer be the same? Thank you.
And what about that oh-so-impressive Jacksonville defense he schemed last year?
From this article:
Williams spurred the Redskins into a top 10 defensive ranking three times, although his aggressive schemes were short on turnovers: Washington ranked 25th, 32nd, 15th and 22nd in takeaways from 2004-07. Notably, his unit is leading the league with 32 in his first season with the Saints, while the Redskins are at the bottom again – tied for last with 13.
Look. Do I think Double G is a better DC than Greg Blache? Absolutely. Do I wish Snyderatto would have swallowed their blimp-sized ego and hired Williams to be our HC? Absofuckinglutely. But I don’t get this, “Gregg Williams got his team more fired up to get turnovers” contention you keep making.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so your argument essentially is, even with Albert Haynesworth and DeAngelo Hall, two players who have proven throughout their careers that they excel when there is a coach to sincerely motivate them to play to their maximum potential, that Greg Blache can do this with them/key pieces of the defense and the rest of the unit? And that Williams couldn’t engineer a much more fired up defense here that could generate more turnovers with the additions we have now as he has done with Fujita, Vilma, Will Smith, Grant, & co.?
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
so your argument essentially is, even with Albert Haynesworth and DeAngelo Hall, two players who have proven throughout their careers that they excel when there is a coach to sincerely motivate them to play to their maximum potential, that Greg Blache can do this with them/key pieces of the defense and the rest of the unit?
And your proof of the statement I’ve emphasized in bold being….?
For one thing, both those players are out. For another thing, how, exactly, do you think just those two would have made a difference under Williams? Williams never coached Hall, yet he had a pretty decent partial season last year with the Skins. And do you expect that playing under Williams, Haynesworth would have suddenly forced 15 fumbles this season?
Frankly, part of the reason Nawlins is leading the world in turnovers is just plain good luck. Out of 14 forced fumbles, the Saints have recovered 13 of them. You mean to tell me that’s all “Williams lighting a fire under his players”?
Williams’ 2008 Jags defense was 31st in the league in turnovers. His 2001, 2002 and 2003 Bills defenses were 13th, 32nd, and 32nd in the league, respectively, in turnovers. Heck, the Redskins were 13th in the league BEFORE he came to DC, (2003) which is better than Williams ever achieved in Washington.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i think we're both arguing
without much empirical evidence, but to be as reductionist as possible, my argument boils down to – It’s not just luck, every football analyst wouldn’t be echoing the same sentiment that the Saints defense is much more highly motivated + plays with alot more fire & intensity which enables teams to seemingly get “lucky” + get turnovers. If it were just luck, I think *some*body would have stepped up and said so instead of parroting that Williams has been able to energize the defense ergo enable it to generate more turnovers. Like Branch Rickey said, ‘luck is the residue of design.’
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Williams’s aggressive design meshes well with the personnel we have here, Blache’s conservative & predictable strategy is best suited to minimize the weaknesses of a bad defense, not built to maximize the defense of a very good unit. On the bad teams Williams has been a coach of, Blache would have done better because he minimizes weaknesses at the cost of strengths, an excellent comparative advantage for teams with bad defenses. On good teams Williams maximizes strengths but doesn’t mitigate weaknesses as well, therefore his strategy’s comparative disadvantage does extremely poorly with bad teams but excels with good defenses.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 2:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and are you kidding me, Hall did okay? He was stiff-armed & crumpled to the ground faster than cinder blocks by Jake Delhomme of all people which enabled the Panthers to beat us this season. Williams is one of the few coaches who can lose his shit at players without them raising them a lost shit in a battle of tempers, & who can actually keep talented players who take plays off playing to their maximum. Frankly, Blache is not. And the idea that turnovers are just determined by “luck”, is blasphemous & such a throwaway argument. If turnovers were generated mostly by being at the right place at the right time (oh! a fumble!, or darts to your DB’s chest), then there would be a lot more parity between the best teams at generating turnovers and the worst teams at it. But there isn’t a ton of parity, and it’s because some defensive coordinaters mesh well with their units and can either mitigate the horridness of bad units & do a mediocre to poor job of maximizing the potential of good ones like Blache, or maximize the potential of good units and do a wretched job mitigating the horridness of bad ones like Williams. We are built for a coordinator like Williams, not Greg Blache. The icing on the cake is that Blache apparently shits the bed when he is asked questions, not a quality I want in an organization that is already unaccountable as fuc* at the front office.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't say that turnovers are luck.
I said that forcing 14 fumbles and recovering 13 of them is luck.
I like your thinking, because it conveys a certain logic that makes sense, but without proof, I don’t believe it.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i don’t call a rattling off of team turnover rankings without examining the crucial nuances of personnel “empirical evidence” with even the most remote sense of conclusiveness
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You don't call
12 years of statistical evidence, with 5 different teams, and the only constant being Gregg Williams running the defense, “empirical evidence”? The whole point of looking at such a large sample size is to ELIMINATE variables like different personnel.
I didn’t SAY it’s conclusive. I just said it follows a certain trend. If you want to tell me that’s just pure coincidence, then we’re going to have to agree to disagree.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Also,
when I mentioned Hall, I was talking about 2008, when he led the team in interceptions (without even playing a full season). Under Greg Blache, not Gregg Williams.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and how many interception machines we had that year
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 2:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here, lemme summarize WITH empirical evidence:
Gregg Williams’ defenses, with league rank in turnovers caused:
1997 Oilers, 8th
1998 Oilers, 29th
1999 Titans, 15th
2000 Titans, 4th
2001 Bills, 13th
2002 Bills, 32nd
2003 Bills, 32nd
2004 Redskins, 25th
2005 Redskins, 32nd
2006 Redskins, 15th
2007 Redskins, 22nd
2008 Jaguars, 31st
2009 Saints, 2nd (so far)
Average rank: 20th
What do all these teams have in common? Only Williams. In 1998, 2002, 2003, 2005, and 2008, Williams’ defense was either last in the league in turnovers or second to last. (In 1998, there were only 30 teams) I also note that Williams’ statistically WORST defense while with Washington, (and the only year with Archuleta, who you mentioned) was 2006, when his D had the highest league turnover rank of his entire DC tenure.
This year’s Saints defense is a statistical outlier, nothing more.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
see above
and try to make that argument, that the Saints are simply an outlier & the shift in the quality of their defense is by & large attributable to happenstance + turnovers purely = luck to anyone who has watched the Saints this year. I live in New Orleans and have seen every one. It’s not just the offense that’s electrified, the defense is supremely motivated. The tragic times I have gotten to see the Redskins, the defense has played to turn the ball over with the gusto of rigor mortis.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 2:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Whoa.... I didn't say ANYTHING about the "quality of their defense".
I’m talking ONLY about turnovers. Those Bills teams that Williams coached were in the top 5 in total defense despite being at the bottom of the pack in turnovers. We all know how awesome our D was in 2004, and pretty damned good in 2005 and 2007, despite a dearth of turnovers.
I DEFINITELY credit the Saints’ awesome D this year to Williams. I just don’t give him credit for the turnovers, because statistically, that doesn’t follow his career numbers.
Double G’s system is GREAT for total defense. It’s just not so good for generating turnovers.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
I think he stuck around after Gibbs and Double G left for his players, but I’m not sure how much he wants to keep coaching at the place he’s at in his career.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't think so
I don’t know who it should be but whoever it i needs to play more aggressive, especially with the corners. We have now established that Orakpo and Carter can generate pass rush so now the CBs have to step up and stop giving 15-20 yard cushions on every play. And please stop rushing 4 and dropping into a zone on a 3 and 7.
by Basketnarb on Dec 14, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why stop rushing 4
if we can generate a pass rush just with the D-line?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Part of the reason
why Double G used to blitz so much was to cover our lack of D-line talent.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is what lost us the game against dallas. No pass rush with only four lineman.
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I said "IF".
If we CAN’T generate a pass rush with just 4 guys, especially against a good line like Dallas’, THEN yeah. Blitz.
But if you’re doing fine with just 4 guys, then there’s no need to sacrifice coverage of the field.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree but against Dallas we should have brought the heat that last drive against Romo
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
or got into field goal range or scored a touchdown with the last drive
All kinds of things could have wond the game
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Against Dallas
we should have made another fucking field goal.
It’s pretty tough to win when you only score 6 points. Hell, it’s pretty tough to win when you only score 9 points.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
short field goal would have won it
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 4:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now you're just being antagonising
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you Reka some hater will always hate ...
I was told that actions speak louder than words, As far as I can tell someones actions yesterday spoke volumes. SHHHHH I will not mention the name but it starts with a J. LOL
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Jorakpo?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not in here fellas
this has turned into one of the better convos we’ve had in a while here.
Kudos Sugar!
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No. Look how long it took him to move LL close to the line of scrimmage
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 11:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I doubt it
Isn’t Blache like 94 years old? I don’t think Blache is quite in tune with today’s standard of play. Don’t get me wrong, Blache knows more about defense than almost the entire league, but if he isn’t willing to adjust to the league and/or isn’t willing to put the team in the best position to win, then it doesn’t matter.
Yes, the defense is ranked high, but we could be ranked higher. Let’s put it this way, if your child is bringing home a 3.2 GPA when you know they’re capable of a 4.0 GPA, wouldn’t you be upset with them? Keeping Landry as FS for so long, and Orakpo as LB instead of DE is not putting your team in the best position to win. Plus, there’s been plenty of long drives from opposing offenses lately. Blache isn’t aggressive enough for my taste. Promote Jerry Gray to defensive coordinator, specifically because of his much younger age.
by bigrm18 on Dec 14, 2009 11:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly
but if he isn’t willing to adjust to the league and/or isn’t willing to put the team in the best position to win, then it doesn’t matter.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NO WAY
This defense has taken a SIGNIFICANT step back in since Gregg Williams left. And I’m not talking about production. I’m talking about attitude and philosophy. Under Williams, the defense wanted teams to be scared to play the Redskins. Blache wants teams to know what we’re gonna do, then see if they can beat us. Well, they’ve beaten us WAY too many times.
What’s ironic is, THIS unit is probably better suited for Williams’ style then the one he had (minus #21). Could you imagine Big Al, Rak, and Fletcher playing together on Williams’ defense? And, dare I say, could you imagine ST21 playing behind those guys, and with D Hall? WOW.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 12:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
::has defense orgasm::
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I find your defensive orgasm offensive
but at least you don’t have to eat the biscuit now.
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dammit dude,
I just ate some yogurt before reading that….
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So you omitted the biscuit
and went straight for it, eh?
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 1:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you guys are on a roll today
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't be last
or you’ll have to eat that roll
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 1:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
also
gregg williams > greg blache. blache is an ornery unaccountable piece of snyder kissass who schemes too conservatively and doesn’t motivate the defensive personnel we have to play with as much fire necessary to generate turnovers
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 14, 2009 8:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
See response above
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 12:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
additionally, you aren’t responsive to the kiss-ass unaccountable claim. Do we really want a defensive coordinator who hides from criticism because he can’t handle it, just like his boss/the owner, and only comes out to speak to us to defend, the boss/the owner.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 4:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't noticed him
hiding from criticism. Maybe it’s because I haven’t been paying close enough attention, but I haven’t noticed it.
And I don’t particularly LIKE the boss/owner, either, but I think it took balls to come out and publicly defend him. That’s all I said earlier.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
he lost it like Snyder/a child during an interview because the journalist implicitly questioned Blache’s conservatism & questioned the aggressiveness of the pass rush against the Patriots.
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/dcsportsbog/2009/08/greg_blache_blows_up_trevor_ma.html
After this he went into hiding from questions/any accountability & has since refused to speak to the media, the one exception being to come out of hiding to publicly kiss his boss’s/King Snyder’s ass.
It’s a logical inference that unaccountable people in power at the front office & the coaching staff would be thick as thieves. No small wonder that one unaccountable coach went to great lengths to protect his similarly unaccountable employer, & then remembered that he doesn’t have the stones to be accountable to the fans of the franchise just like his ass-kissed boss.
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does Clinton Portis have a future with this team?
Even Satan thinks Scott Boras is evil.
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:03 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
but if he does come back, it’s his last year.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
At least I hope not. With Portis in the mix there this feeling that we are obligated to give him 20 carries a game but that’s not what this team is. This team was bad when it was 1st down run, 2nd down run, 3rd and long pass, punt. We are a pass first team and we have some speedy young back who can hit the wholes that open up because of that. They need to either trade Portis, if they can get anything for him (even a late draft pick) or just cut and save some cap space.
Maybe they draft a RB in the 2nd or 3rd round who can develop but the backs they have now are not to bad. It’s definitely not the most glaring whole on the team.
by Basketnarb on Dec 14, 2009 11:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree that it might be time
to draft and develop a new back. Someone with speed, and someone who’s preferably played in the WCO before.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:24 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And someone
with good hands, obviously.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's telling when
a bunch of journeymen came in to replace CP and ALL of them have looked better.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wow.
The truth hurts.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
And I think there’ll be some good backs coming out of college we could pick up after we use our first two picks on linemen.
What is LeGarret Blount projected at? I’m hoping his knockout punch v Boise State will make other team wary of him, and we can snatch him late.
by Smack27 on Dec 14, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Blount isn't so much a speed back
as a masher, though. We’ve got Sellers for that.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No we don't. Sellers is a FB, and one who should never carry the ball.
as a masher, though. We’ve got Sellers for that.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 12:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, yeah, he's a FB.
A FB who can carry the ball. He’s no Mike Alstott, but still.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We need a Mike Alstott
that guy could score TDs without even crossing the goalline.
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ah ZING!!
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Excuse me
I just threw up in my mouth a bit.
However, we did get our revenge in the playoffs.
by VB O's Guy on Dec 14, 2009 1:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I haven't seen it. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise though
A FB who can carry the ball.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 1:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Clinton is done
He’s no longer the star back, and he needs to retire.
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If he does
He shouldn’t. I appreciate what Portis has done for this team, but at this point in his career, Portis just doesn’t have it. Plus, with him having a concussion and being the age he is, I doubt that Portis would lean forward for those extra two yards, or be willing to plow over a defender like Ganther was willing to do yesterday.
by bigrm18 on Dec 14, 2009 11:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
depends
on the cap situation. No salary cap? He’s gone. But I don’t see them taking the cap hit along with eating crow to get rid of him. That dead cap space would be yet another reminder of the awful business plan this team operates under.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 12:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if they have a cap there is no way we can cut him next year
but I doubt we have a cap next year. Wonder if we could get Leon Washington for an affordable price.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This should be
a 2 part question…
Wonder if we could get Leon Washington for an affordable price
1) Yes, we could get him
2) “Affordable price” is not in this franchise’s vocabulary. ESPECIALLY in an uncapped year.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 1:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NOW, you're giving me hope.
Stop it.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the guy
playing for Atlanta. Snelling, is it? He looks like a beast. I dunno if he’s available, but with Turner and Norwood in front of him, he’s rotting over there.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think so
he turned down an extension last off season so he could cash in this year.
Obviously his value took a hit with the injury, but I don’t see him going anywhere for minimum value.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With the emergence of Fred Davis, should Chris Cooley be traded/released?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
How good is a 2 TE Twins set?
With Thomas flank, Moss slot, and Davis/Cooley TE.
by SSBlitz on Dec 14, 2009 11:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Or even
trips TE w/ Davis, Cooley and Yoder all on the same size? Would create MAJOR matchup problems for the defense.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
*side
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All depends on the offers
Someone offers a number 1 for Chris then the team has to listen
Only if the trade is a no brainer
by dr WNC on Dec 14, 2009 11:41 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Someone offers a number 1 for him
then they’re an idiot. But we’d be an even bigger idiot not to make that trade.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He shouldn't be
how soon we forget that he was our most reliable receiver on the team for years. Two tight end sets all around next year. Imagine having those two bulldozers going over the middle. Both of them are impossible for the first man to take down.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 11:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
+1
and I’ll raise you a Yoder.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad we can't sucker someone into trading us a pick for Yoder
I mean, the guy is converting passes intended into touchdowns at a 100% click this year….
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 12:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just another reason
to keep all 3. It would be red zone heaven.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 1:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And
Cooley is in his prime. He’s got a lot of years left in the tank.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's why he's good trade bait
Teams that feature TEs in the passing game don’t seem to be able to fully use a second TE. There was a lot of talk about Martellus(?) Bennet’s potential but with Witten around he doesn’t get to use it—maybe he’s hurt? Cooley didn’t get into the end zone much last year but he’s obviously a top 10 or even top 5 TE. I think Davis has great potential, and I just love guys with a nose for the end zone. It’s fair to say we have a surplus of talent at that position, and a deficit elsewhere, so a trade makes sense. I vote to trade the older guy.
On the other hand it’s great to have characters on the team. Keeps things loose and entertaining, even in bad years.
by Smack27 on Dec 14, 2009 2:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
can't trade him unless we have an uncapped year
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's not really in doubt.
Next year is uncapped, almost guaranteed.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed just thought that should be pointed out
People rarely seem to realize that when you trade guys early in a big contract the cap hit accelerates which is why guys with big contracts don’t normally move.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 3:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good coaches
will alter their system to maximize the abilities of the players they have. I love being TE rich with some serviceable RBs (I like Ganther – he rips and runs hard – did you see his 2-yd touch yesterday? No one else on this team would have scored. You don’t know if the TEs are flooding out to catch or to block the run. I think with the rest of the WRs we have it could be a really cool offense. JMO
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 3:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It depends
On the draft pick other teams would be willing to offer. If it’s a second rounder or something like a third and sixth, then we should consider it. I know everyone would be sad to see Cooley go, but this is the NFL and a business. If we’re able to become a better team by giving up Cooley, then bye bye Cooley.
Think of it like this, do we want to be really good at the TE position, or do we want to be good at several positions? We have to learn to become good at several positions like the good teams instead of really good at one or two positions. If we’re able to accumulate draft picks and become a better team, then I’m all for it. I can almost guarantee that New England would shop Cooley for a pick/some picks if they were in the same position. I know it’s not guarantee that we’ll even draft a player that is as good as Cooley, but it’s also no guarantee that Cooley will come back and perform at the level we’re accustomed to seeing him perform at.
by bigrm18 on Dec 14, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I'm saying, too.
I love Cooley, but if we could get a left tackle (unlikely) or a right guard for him, or a decent draft pick to GET one of those, then I’d let him go.
Your TE doesn’t play every offensive down. Your LT does.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No. You don't trade a perennial pro bowler until you HAVE TO
Let Davis play out his affordable contract and see if he’s worth committing to.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 12:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly…u tell me how much it will cost for cooley and how much for davis and i will tell u what we should do
by les boulez bomber on Dec 14, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
Having Cooley, Davis, and Yoder all on the field (u pick the formation) could cause some real matchup probs for other teams – something no other team has adjusted their D to defend. It gives us size matchups on run blocking as well as big guys no CBs and fast guys on LBs.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
I say move Cooley to FB. Sellers is old, and has obviously taken a huge step back. So you get rid of him, and let Cooley become the fullback/ H-back. Sure, he needs to learn how to block, but does anyone think he’s incapable of it? His hard nosed running after the catch shows how physical he is. And think of all those passes Sellers has dropped over the past few seasons. Obviously FB is still a big part of the passing game, so it’s not like CC wouldn’t get his looks. But, bottom line, you have him and Davis on the field at the same time EVERY PLAY.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's an interesting thought.
I like it.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yoder lined up at FB
at least one play yesterday in the red zone. Did anyone else notice? Other plays?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yoder was the lead block for one of Ganther's TDs
Ganther gave Yoder alot of praise for a key block that got him the TD
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Do you think Cooley would like it . Do you think Cooley is to valuable to have his carreer ..
shortened by taking a pounding blocking.
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
depends on
how you spin it to him. I think Cooley relishes contact. And it’s not like we run a smashmouth style anyway. No, he’ll never be a Lorenzo Neal, but those guys are becoming extinct. Cooley could revolutionize the position. PLUS, his competition for the Pro Bowl would dwindle significantly
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
From what I've read
Cooley is crazy (he even admits it himself), he has no problem putting his body on the line for anything. Him trying to come back during the season despite the fact that it was all over with solidifies that for me.
The guy bleeds Burgundy and Gold, and he’ll do whatever they ask him to.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yep
I HATE the fact that Wise came up with one of the best phrases that I’ve ever heard to describe Cooley. Not that it was Wise, just that it WASN’T ME!!!
“Chris Cooley is respected as a beer truck with a broken parking break.”
That’s an AWESOME quote.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My only concern
would be that he might injure his hands while blocking.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Release??? I can't imagine a scenario where we would want to release him
And I don’t think he should be traded either, unless we can get an extremely favorable return for him. That is something I don’t think Cerrato is capable of doing.
I believe Cooley can be such a versatile threat, that even if Davis emerges as the better TE (doubt it), he could still be used A LOT, and in differents formations.
by VB O's Guy on Dec 14, 2009 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the cap returns after 2010.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree, imagine trying to cover Cooley and Davis ??
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 2:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why not keep them and run Cooley in the slot,
similarly to how the Colt’s use Dallas Clark. Run Fred off the line, he seems to be a better blocker now anyway.
by ronoD nagrO on Dec 14, 2009 3:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I like the idea,
especially since it means Cooley’s probably going to get a nickelback covering him. Or a safety.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Davis and Cooley-Sounds like a 1970s Black & White Cop Show
UNLESS you can get a good 1st-2nd round pick for either. Find a way to put both of them in the offense.
We KNOW Cooley can play and Davis is starting to look like the Best Tight End coming out of college when he was drafted.
Campbell has good history of getting the ball to the Tight Ends, keep them both, run a 2Tight End Offense.
by MarkAntney on Dec 14, 2009 2:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Campbell has a good history of getting the ball to the Tight Ends.
That’s true. But I think part of that is 1. his main tight end is Chris Cooley, and 2. Campbell dumps the ball off too often.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Campbell dumps the ball off too often.
I would consider that a Negative if The TEs aren’t All Pro Caliber and/or he was dumping it to the Opponent:):):)
To me (whatever the H3LL that means) when given time, Campbell is a decent QB?
Outside of Rivers (SDiego), Rothchild (P’burgh), and maybe Eli (and really because of one throw in one GAME, the SBowl:):)),… I can’t name a young QB that’s obviously better than him?
Of the QBs in the upcoming Drafts, I think Locker and Clausen will prove to be NFL Starters one day but I think the others are Gambles.
Though Campbell isn’t on the Sidelines screaming at the line, cursing out the Coach, ignoring the Coach, winning every game in the 4th Quarter,… after all the turmoil and LACK of support both ON the Field (but more importantly) and Front Office,….
If the Skins have 99 problems to solve, he’s in the upper 90s:):):)
by MarkAntney on Dec 14, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, I agree.
And I think that having shitty wideouts and a shitty line is part of the reason he dumps the ball off so much.
I just think that’s a valid criticism in his case.
Do I want to get rid of him? Hell no. Do I wish he’d be more aggressive? Yeah, a bit.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Clausen = Quinn No Notre Dame!!!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
I kinda see Clausen as having the attitude of Eli Manning with the “talent” of JaMarcus Russell.
(Those are both bad things)
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
As much as I think we could get value for Cooley
I am DYING to see an offense built around Davis and Cooley in tight, and Thomas, Marko and Kelly running on the outside (with Thomas starting). Make defenses pick their poison.
by Sugar on Dec 14, 2009 3:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Plus Yoder!!!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no bec cooley is signed longer term and we wont have the money to resign one of the young receivers and FD in the same year. that is what happens when you draft three high picks that all play the same or similar high dollar positions in the same year.
by les boulez bomber on Dec 14, 2009 11:37 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
We're the Redskins,
and next year is an uncapped year. I’m fairly certain we have enough cash to re-sign all of our young receivers.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:43 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i hope so…but we have A LOT of dead contract weight that will need to be paid and a top 10 draft pick. the skins should really trade down and grab two O linemen in the first round and a third in the second.
by les boulez bomber on Dec 14, 2009 11:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
HA
the skins should really trade down and grab two O linemen in the first round and a third in the second.
Sorry, I just blew coffee outta my nose on that one.
Did you REALLY just type that? Think about this – the time it took you to TYPE that sentence is TWICE the time they will spend THINKING about doing it.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ha
We can’t trade Cooley unless it is an uncapped year so we should see how that shakes out first because it might be a moot point.
by BayAreaBullet on Dec 14, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you have to spread players, positions, and $$$ around. and learn to spot future stars and sign them longer term while they are still cheap. there is only enough money to sign one franchise receiver/te to a big contract- or two good ones. the others have to be young, cheap studs…think minnesota, new england, indy, new orleans…u know..the teams at the top this year. ..what pit did
by les boulez bomber on Dec 14, 2009 11:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
This isn't so much a question
as a statement, but I’d like to lock up London Fletcher for the rest of his career.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 11:50 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
wait
we haven’t done this already?!?!? WTF?!?!?
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
he’s “officially” signed through 2012, but you know how this team rolls. Towards the end of the contract, they’ll either renegotiate or release.
If 2011 and 2012 are uncapped, however, we might not need to renegotiate.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hate to say it
but 2012 could BE the “rest of his career.” I know the guy is a beast, and seems to be an ageless wonder, but he WILL break/slow down at some point. In 2012 he’ll be 37 years old, will have been in the league 15 years, and will probably STILL not have missed a game. Hell, he may even be the all time leader in tackles.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 1:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MAY be?
Hell, he may even be the all time leader in tackles.
I’d go ahead and write that in the books right now.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 14, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you never know
with this team. They may decide he’s so productive at MLB that he could play corner. Of course, he’d STILL probably lead the team in tackles. And we’d have receivers running open in the secondary all day. Wait a minute……………….
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 1:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't Hate Just State :):)
If you can get rid of: Montana, Namath, OJ (OK, he’s a double murderer), Emmitt Smith, Jerry RICE, Ricky Jackson (Saints), Farve,… the NFL is a hard @SS hustle folks.
They’re a Microcasm of Corporate America and Capitalism in General or is it a Personification????:):)
Though they are handsomely compensated:):) to be so Hustled.
by MarkAntney on Dec 14, 2009 2:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
How many years
does he realistically have left – I mean he pounds it out game after game.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's more of an intellectual player
than a genuinely physically-talented star, and the brain doesn’t decline as severely as the body.
If and when he retires, I think the FO should immediately offer him a coaching job — probably defensive QC assistant at first, then a positional job.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 12:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Nice thought on the QC Job offer
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 12:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
hell
I’d make him defensive coordinator NEXT YEAR over Blache. Then we could start grooming him as HC.
by CJHutch on Dec 14, 2009 1:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This this this!
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Williams = "Comeback Player Of The Year"
Did anyone see Big Mike and his run blocking he did a great job yesterday. I think he will become a solid right guard for us. We just need to steal a couple of Offensive lineman that can pass block and find one more running back and our offense will be a winner.
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 14, 2009 1:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
If I ran the circus
Here is what I would do:
Extend JC for at least 2-3 more years, but don’t necessarily be willing to sell the entire farm for it. I think JC should be given a competitive offer and all efforts within reason be made to keep him on board.
Zorn got a 3 year contract, he should be allowed to finish it out. Hard to say what I’d do on the OC/play calling situation without being behind the scenes. It really depends on how much Sherm is contributing to the recent production. If it is a lot then he needs to be kept around in some fashion to train Zorn et al on how to play call this offense properly. If this is truly just a matter of Zorn’s plan starting to click with the personnel then we don’t need him around.
Draft needs to be a left tackle ready to start with the first pick. Later picks I think should go to depth at linebacker (London is awesome but he isn’t going to be around forever) as well as guards. I have zero confidence in Williams or Rhinehart long term. We may need to just live with Heyer at RT for another year. If nothing else he’s still relatively young and seems to be slowly showing a bit of improvement. Not to mention if we get a reliable LT we can have Heyer playing in the position he’s supposed to be at consistently for once.
If they want a backup QB to start molding fair enough but I think if they’re going to do that it should only be a later round pick. Don’t draft a runner unless something unforeseen happens. If it comes down to it use Ganther and Mason. We need youth right now in my opinion more than veteran ability and while I like Portis I think he’s done as a Redskin. He’s been too beat up and he’s never going to practice.
This is firmly in that “what I would do” column. My prediction about what I think will happen is much, much different (and worse IMO).
by SkinsOsTerps on Dec 14, 2009 2:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I like your strategy
Though I’d give Rhinehart a little more time. Sometimes these guys need a few years to get it. Also, we’ve drafted late round backup QBs the last two years. I’d like to see the one we kept have a chance to learn some more. I like Daniel. He’s short, but he seemed strong, which can make up for his height in the pocket, like Brees (obviously he’s not as talented).
by Smack27 on Dec 14, 2009 2:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
IIRC,
wasn’t Graham Harrell an undrafted free agent?
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 2:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, that's right.
Chase Daniel.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You may be right
but I still think the most glaring weakness on this team is the O-line. We’ve seen over the last few weeks what a little consistency can do on the line. What we need now is to add some more talent to it. My drafted positions would likely be:
1st round LT, 2nd round LB, 4th round G or C (Rabach is old as hell too), 5th round G or C, 7th round pick would go depending on whats left but what I’d keep my eyes on secondary generally or CB or FS (though this late in the draft you’d be looking to add quality at any of those positions, not necessarily prioritizing one position over the other). Figure in Jarmon (DE) as our 3rd rounder from the supplemental and I would say we did alright in terms of addressing weakness on both O and D with available picks.
by SkinsOsTerps on Dec 14, 2009 3:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agree,
but I’d go G before I’d go C, unless there’s a C who’s clearly above the rest of the pack.
Rabach’s still got a little gas in the tank.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 3:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i dont think this year’s class is deep on the o line, unfortunately
by les boulez bomber on Dec 15, 2009 3:17 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's had 2 years and he can barely get active
Though I’d give Rhinehart a little more time.
"By far the worst performers on the team are in the front office." – Sally Jenkins
by smutsboy1 on Dec 14, 2009 3:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here's another one.
Should Sherman Lewis be given a larger role in the offseason?
I say we keep Zorn and make Sherm the full-time OC for next year.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 4:06 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Maybe I haven't been very clear
but all of my posts regarding Zorn and keeping him next year were based on Sherm being OC full time.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 4:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sherm is already OC
are you talking boring Sherman or Spermin’ Sherman?
by CarverM on Dec 14, 2009 5:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Aaaak - I can never keep them straight.
I’m talking Spermin’ Shermin if he’s the guy that got the O going like it’s going.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 14, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, by definition,
the guy who makes our offense go CAN’T be boring Sherman, so you should know instinctively that it’s Spermin’ Sherman.
Wow…. imagine if we DID hire Mike Sherman as head coach, but kept the rest of the coaching staff intact. We’d have a plethora of Shermans.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 6:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wish someone would have ESPN eat crow
Because of all that euphemistic “He was just playing bingo!” BS, trying to make him sound like a dottering old man who thought FDR was still president
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 14, 2009 8:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Grand , This room was full of Sherm' The Bingo Caller " Lewis haters..
That is a problem most people don’t do any research they just go based on emotion. If any one had listened to Chris Carter and his comments about Sherm Lewis they would not have called him that. Chris Carter (Minesota Vikiings receiver) said that Sherm was a “REDZONE GENIUS”. He also said that Sherm liked using big receivers in the redzone. Wow, isn’t it funny how Santana is very seldomly targeted in the redzone now. Isn’t it funny how we now can run a pass play from inside the ten yard line now ??
In one of jason’s recent interviews he even talked about we are now stretching the field and not just throwing short passes. But I guess if people saw the last few games they have been able to notice this. All of these changes were Sherms not Zorn’s.
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 15, 2009 7:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, LJP
I don’t know of one Sherm Lewis hater on this blog. Yes, very early on, we were critical of Snyder for trying to fix the team situation in a very clumsy way.
So we were being hypercritical, yes, but mostly of Snyder. We all know now that it was a great move to bring Sherm L in at the expense of a lot of people in Michigan who will no longer get their meals on wheels or bingo games called from an NFL legend.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 12:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please stop trying to rewrite history.
Kthxbai.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I never heard people talk about his other volunteer job meals on wheels.
He delivered meals to eldery people who could not get out. His other volunteer job calling bingo at a senior center. Wow, a man trys to give back to the community and he got trashed in the media and H.H. for it
by LETJASONPASS on Dec 15, 2009 7:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i’m not saying every person on the Hogs Haven board & among the posters is immune from having propagated ESPN’s pop criticism of Lewis, what i am saying is that ESPN has a higher degree of responsibility than we/fans bear for good reason, we do this because it’s how we opt to entertain ourselves (meaningfully of course, everyone here loves the redskins), but it’s ESPN’s professional responsibility not to advance such superficial critiques of someone like Sherman Lewis because it makes their job easier. The fact that some or many here propagated their journalism doesn’t bother me as much as their key role in its creation; fans, especially frustrated ones, aren’t going to do their own investigative journalism to see past what the one single sports news network on the air tells them is the scoop. But it’s their professional responsibility not to be so lazy as to take something out of context and pretend they’ve done a thorough job of previewing what we might be in for.
Thanks for mentioning what else Lewis has done, i knew the bingo thing was a volunteer gig, but i had no idea about meals on wheels! what a nice guy, he deserves so much credit on & off the field
by Grand Tanyon Sturtze on Dec 15, 2009 10:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And now, thanks to Snyder
there are people in Michigan who are starving without their meals on wheels. (JUST kidding)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I LOL'd.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It's just a good story, that's all.
It’s like how any summary of Kurt Warner’s career includes the fact that at one point he was stocking supermarket shelves.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 1:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Since we'll probably have to change our name at some point, why not
The Washington Shermans – probably as good as anything I’ve seen to date.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Dec 15, 2009 1:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Heck, good as any other.
I was thinking the other night how sometimes I feel like I’m rooting for the Washington Generals. :-\
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Did they really beat us in the T.O.P ?
I guess that shows how efficient our offense was yesterday. Quick scoring.
by DCtoAustralia on Dec 14, 2009 6:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Not really surprising.
The passing game was really clicking yesterday.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 14, 2009 6:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
awesome thread
I love how people are actually making true, intelligent statements, unlike yahoo sports where people just spend time trashing the skins and making stupid comments.
by HAIL2THEREDSKINS on Dec 14, 2009 7:51 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
exactly the reason I come on to this site dude
I love how people are actually making true, intelligent statements, unlike yahoo sports where people just spend time trashing the skins and making stupid comments.
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Dec 15, 2009 1:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah....
I tend to stay away from large media outlets like that, or ESPN.com, or local newspapers, etc.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
my favourtie bit of this particular thread
THE PICTURE
I now know what a smiling Zorn looks like!!!
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Dec 15, 2009 1:10 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I didn't wanna say anything
but a smiling Zorn makes me feel better for some reason.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Dec 15, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah....
smiling Jim Zorn has a strangely soothing effect.
"The existence of flamethrowers is proof that someone, somewhere, said to himself, 'I want to set those people over there on fire, but I don't feel like walking over there to do it.'"
by DbacksSkins on Dec 15, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it does hey
a smiling Zorn makes me feel better
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Dec 15, 2009 6:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My earring
What’s the big deal?? I’ve worn it on the air for 16 years! R U just now noticing?
by Chick@CSN on Dec 15, 2009 7:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Hahahahah
I could not picture you without the earring brother. I was being honest when I said I could not pull it off! The funny thing is that we often do unofficial “ratings” of our local sports guys and whenever we talk about you, the earring always comes up. It is kind of like a ghetto Hall of Fame voters meeting. I have never made the case for or against you in these meetings but when you come up I invariably compare you to Jim Vance (definitely because of the earring), usually like this:
“Chick is D.C.’s guy. Love him or hate him, he has been on the scene for a long time and kind of dominates. Like Jim Vance, his signature style and earring are synonymous with the reporting we have grown up with…”
by Sugar on Dec 16, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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