The Great JC Debate.....continues
by Pommylee on Nov 23, 2009 7:26 PM EST
22 comments
So in a week when Campbell had a game that once again has been viewed completely differently depending on which side of the JC Hater/JC Supporter debate you live in I propose the definitive argument, however it comes with some basic common sense regulations that accept NFL reality as it stands.
We cant just go out and grab Peyton Manning, and every change you do propose comes with a cost.. If we had gone and got Cutler in the pre-season we would be without 1st Rd picks for 2 years, same for Sanchez. You go and get Bradford this year that means we can not get an O-Line pick and we spend 30-60 mil on an unproven rookie with potential shoulder issues AND AGAIN no top level O-Line pick.
You cant just say, "get rid of Jason" without a plan and without an acceptance of the cost it will entail. You wanna trade for Matt Shaub lets say, well that means losing probably a 1st and 2nd rd pick.
So if you are anti-Campbell I can sypathise with that view, dont agree with it, but can understand it and dont view it as wrong neccesarily, if I could swap Campbell for Philip Rivers tomorrow I would do it with no hesitation, but that is not an option and that is what you have to factor in to your views on what to do at QB, you must factor in the cost!!! one more time.... the cost of any change (and to be fair the cost of keeping him) has to be factored in to what you would do.
Please for this thread no personal attacks, no "your an idiot". no "he's useless" respect each others views, keep it civilized and let the great debate begin!!!!
My opinion for what its worth (and this has been influenced by other contributors to this site), keep JC, get rid of WCO, accept JC's strengths and limitations for what they are... he can be a safe QB who will not lose you games but wont win you many by himself either ......so base your game around running the ball, strong D (which we have) and good special teams (which we need) and change/return the culture of the team to a running, smash em up safe football team.
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I have a feeling...
that whether or not the FO decides to keep him won’t really matter because he will be looking for an opportunity with another team. I wouldn’t be surprised if he has a few options too.
I hope that we can keep him. There are weak spots around him and just swapping QBs isn’t going to make a difference.
On the flip side, we are at the bottom of the division, have lost to some of the worst teams in the NFL, and the O-line will probably require more than 1 season to rebuild. I don’t think trying a new QB would be much of a risk.
We will just have to wait and see what the offseason brings.
We Only need one or two new pieces ...
to our Offensive line with the returning lineman that we have now by next year we will have found a couple of diamonds in the rough out of this group. So if we draft linemen first then we will have a good line next year.
by LETJASONPASS on Nov 24, 2009 6:36 AM EST up reply actions
We need more than 1 or 2 pieces
With virtually no young starting OL we need more than 1-2 pieces. This sounds like something Snyder and VC would claim. If you look at teams that consistently have good OL, you’ll see they draft linemen regularly, and not in desperation at the end of the draft. We haven’t done so in years and you can’t just make up for all those missed drafts in 1 draft.
Afan4LIfe what kind of fan are you ..........
because it truly is not football !!! We have been in just about all of our games. How many blow outs have we had ?? We have lost most of our games by less than a touchdown. Please explain to me how a team that looses by less than a TD can not be a good team with a couple or few key adds ??? We need a stud left tackle and another O-lineman and a running back that can get a tough yard and we are top of the division easy. We almost beat dallas playing without Haynesworth and with our third string running back who is really a fourth or fifth stringer. Oh yea and playing with a patchwork Offensive line.
by LETJASONPASS on Nov 27, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
LJP....
I agree with aFan4Life but with different reasoning than his! Yes….we need to rebuild the OLine…..and it will take more than just this draft to truly lock down a good multi-year line! The other piece however is the culture! The Skins need a significant culture change……and that could involve moving a few of our better players. Sometimes attitude makes up for a lack of skill and sometimes we show the effort, sometimes we don’t! I think we have good coaches….maybe not the right playbook, but positionally…..good coaches. If your players aren’t executing…..sometimes that is just the players not caring….which is what I think we have now! I don’t have the naswers to fix it all…..but the culture is in need of as much of a makeover as the O-Line!
We Need FIVE ALL PRO- LINEMEN ????
SHVD98 I am curious have you ever played football ??? Just in case you did not know it is a team sport. By the way playing O-line is not just a individual effort they work as a team or group. We have a few average and some below average O- Lineman. If we can find a couple of stud lineman and add them to our average lineman we will have a good Offensive line. This is not a two year plan it just takes going after the right people. We do have a couple of diamonds in the rough on our team now. If we draft right we will have a good Offensive Line next year.
Good Offensive lines may have one or two all-pros but never will they have five. The problem is that in that past we have not drafted any of the stud early round lineman.
We have a pansy for a head coach players take on the attitude of the Head Coach. Jim Zorn is not a leader he is a follower he is a coward. I am curious would you follow Jim Zorn into combat if he was in the military ?? Then why would these players give a d- – -n about what he says. He is a wimp and every word that comes out of his mouth sounds like he is unsure of himself. We need a coach that can lead and the players respect.
It is not neccesary for you to like a caoch but to respect them is anopther thing look at bill belchick he is a a-hole but you can not help but respect him.
by LETJASONPASS on Nov 27, 2009 2:31 PM EST up reply actions
Where did I.....
say we need 5 all-pro lineman? I said it can’t be fixed in one draft….you need starters and back-ups. I have played football by the way…..have you? How did that work without you passing English class to learn how to read correctly? I also didn’t understand your argument about Zorn? I mean, I understand what you are saying……but where did I make an argument against that? If you think everything can be solved in one year…..you are no different than Snyder. How easy is it to lock down some “stud” o-lineman? Ask the Raiders and Robert Gallery! If you want to fix it in one season……it more than likely will fail (ie: the previous decade of Redskins football)……and it is a band-aid! You won’t build an offensive line in one year that will allow us to be competitive for the long haul without sacrificing at every other position!!!
As far as your Zorn vs. Belichick argument…….I didn’t allude to it in any way, but since you want to blindly throw it into an argument……Belichick didn’t get that respect right off the bat. He wasn’t well liked either…..until he brought the championships in!!!! Someone allowed him to have the time to build a team…..whether it was good or bad the first couple years!!! How bought Tony Dungy…….would you cast him to the side now….knowing that he is a compassionate humanitarian…..the opposite of Belichick? Did his method not work and get a Super Bowl??? There are different ways to gain respect. I would expect you to understand that better than anyone considering your unwavering support of JC! Is he the a-hole leader we need? Or does he deserve respect bc of his silent leadership and toughness he shows???
I love your passion, although be it blind at times……but don’t call me out without understanding what I am saying. I love the Redskins…..and if they win the SuperBowl next year….I will be as happy as anyone else on here……but what about the next year? I don’t want to follow a decade of average to mediocre football with one year (a la the 2002 Raiders) to fall right back into mediocrity again! We need to slow down and build this up…..and that starts with multiple drafts…..rebuilt chemistry……and a significant culture change! I want to be able to flick off fans of all the other teams happily…..instead of with admiration!
By the way……..on a personal level…….what happens to you next year when JC isn’t here??? LETCOLTPASS…….just curious if your fandom follows the player or changes to the next guy?!?!?!?!
what did fan for life say ??
We needed more than a couple of Offensive linemen !! I made the comment about having five all -pros because that will never happen.(sarcasim) By the way I never said that rebuilding does not start with mutiple drafts. Hey smart guy do you know whats makes us a play off team ?? We need a stud left tackle a lineman that can play mutiple postions and Chester Taylor . We have some serviceable lineman on our team now mix in . It is commonsense to upgrade and get stronger every year thru the draft but we will have a playoff team with just these few things !!
By the way you talk about players not caring?? Like I said that starts with the head coach Tony Dungy and Belchick would either sit or get rid of those players. By the way players play harder for coaches they respect and Jim Zorn sucks as a head coach and all around leader of men.
N
by LETJASONPASS on Nov 30, 2009 7:00 AM EST up reply actions
You read what you want to read.....
it’s like you read the first part…and start to reply….then the next part….and reply! Read the whole thing and take it in context! You think I am attacking you and if you go back in that little brain of yours….I have taken your side quite a bit. You are the most vocal guy on here about Campbell…I think you would be better served to back it up other than with sarcastic retorts and a laundry list of everything we need that we are supposed to get in one year!
half right/half wrong
Jim Zorn sucks as a head coach and all around leader of men.
I think there is little debate now that Zorn is a terrible Head Coach and would have been a worse co-ordinator, but that is all football knowledge/game management/clock management view
as a leader I think you have to give the guy credit, thsi team could be in utter meltdown right now, but they keep putting in and trying, I think as a leader and a unifier he is doing OK, but as a HC you are right he is awful
Pommylee
LJP I agree with you here
All the problems we are having culminates from the O line… Our D keeps em close every game… God bless em all even with all the injuries in the backfield….
If we had a good O line the run game would be better. I I dont care what pro QB you have… If you can give them 5-7 seconds each pass play someone will get open…. We need 5 NEW line men… MOst of them need to be young but we also need some vetted linemen as well.. IM talking about some fast 300+ pounders…
Trade Portis, Randel El, maybe Moss, and get a few extra draft picks off of them…. On top of it this pay cap limit for next year is gonna put Danny boy in a frantic spending fit.
"When the rich wage WAR its the POOR that die!!!"
It's a complete waste of time to get
a QB without getting the O-line in place first. The only risk to getting a new QB is that with our luck he will be THE GUY and have a career ending injury before the line ever develops.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
Before
figuring out what JC will want to do, the collective bargaining agreement will have to be addressed. If it is not successfully renegotiated, JC will be an RFA whose value is far above his pay scale, militating towards keeping him on board since he’s a proven commodity that can get 3000+ yards per season and keeps his TDs over his INTs. Even with a high first round pick at qb having JC in the fold will be worthwhile, and if not then another team will have to part with picks to get him.
If the bargaining agreement is kept alive, only then will JC’s wants and desires be pertinent. I hope he was sincere in his statement that he wants to continue to be the Skins’ man. His numbers are almost boggling when placed in the context of his o line.
TTB!
I agree 3000 yards with this Offensive line ... WOW !!!
Not many Qb’s in the NFL could have stood in and took the beating that he has taken game after the game and still had a good year. People that do not like JC are not looking at all the facts. Give Campbell a good line and he will be a top 10 QB.
by LETJASONPASS on Nov 24, 2009 6:33 AM EST up reply actions
no desperate moves
No matter if it’s the fault of the OL or JC, the bottom line is that what we have now isn’t working. Personally I think JC could be decent with enough surrounding talent but we don’t have it and it’s not going to magically appear in 1 off season.
There’s no question about whether or not the OL needs to be rebuilt and that needs to happen before we sign a high priced QB regardless of whether the QB comes via the draft or free agency. So I think the smart thing to do is let him go when his contract is up and play the next best player currently on the team. That should get us by for a year or 2 which should be enough time to rebuild the line. Meanwhile we use the draft and free agency to rebuild the OL. Once the OL is rebuilt we draft a QB and/or trade for one (or do both and let the best player start).
What I definitely don’t want is to spend our highest draft pick next year on a QB because he’ll just get demolished behind this OL just like Carr did in Houston.
What Rebuilding plan ????
Ok, people how many games this year have we lost by more than a touchdown ??? We are not but a couple pieces away from being a really good team. We have a solid defense. We just need a solid O-line and a larger running back that can hit a hole full speed ( Lyndale White type) .
by LETJASONPASS on Nov 24, 2009 4:34 PM EST up reply actions
JC's Value
We’ll be best served if we can keep him while drafting linemen and other high needs areas—running back has suddenly appeared in this category. Presumably we’ll have a new coaching staff, likely with 2-3 year rebuilding plan. If Campbell sticks around he can at minimum be a quality care-taker, and possibly, with all he’s been through, one of the more dependable veterans around the league. I imagine that respect in the locker room for JC is growing by the week.
I have a feeling that if he’s let go/chooses to go, he’s going to become the reincarnation of Doug Williams for some other team, standing on a super bowl podium, after having toiled away in a bad situation for many years.
i say we don't draft a new QB
i say we get a journey man QB like a Vick or somebody like that, since we are more than likely to get another west coast off coach like a holmgrim or somebody like that..Then let colt sit for a season or two and draft him a line and yes the whole line needs to be rebuilt so this will take time and we will prob be picking in the top 5 picks for the next couple of years, but the pay out will be worth it
by confederate_gent on Nov 30, 2009 1:45 AM EST reply actions
unless Tommy Tuberville
is coming in at coach, Jason Campbell will not be here next year.
I am completely divided on Campbell. While I have no doubt he would perform loads better with a better line, I also don’t think he’s a whole lot better than average. He’s tough and gritty, which can win out over talent (see Jeff George), and he’s definitely get a strong arm. But he misses way too many throws when he dos have time. Like I said in the gamethread – it wouldn’t be a Redskins game without an overthrow to Moss. JC does it every game. I’ve been clamoring all year for them to throw downfield more. The problem is, I’m not sure he could connect on it if they did.
All that said, personally, I would have no problem keeping him another year while we focus on the O-line. But sooner or later, we are gonna need an upgrade. Actually, the ideal situation, to me, would be to tag him (transition or franchise), and see if you could squeeze a draft pick or two out of another team for him. (I’d do the same with Rogers). You could always pull the tag if you get no offers, to keep from overpaying him.
Anyway, all of this is moot since, as I’ve said before, I see ne chance whatsoever of Snyder bringing him back. It’s more than obvious Campbell is not “Snyder’s guy.” And that last part REALLY worries me, cuz I think Snyder, with a top 6 draft pick, will salivate over drafting a college stud at QB. Even though a first round QB hasn’t worked out for us since Sammy Baugh.
I am curious about something .......
do you think he overthrows Moss because he is used to throwing that route to Devin Thomas in practice and he is faster than Moss is?? I doubt very seriously that Moss runs that route more than Thomas does in practice. Moss is a prima donna he would make the rookie take more of the reps when the camera is not on.
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