Australian Punters..... a question on tactics

by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 7:36 PM EDT Comment 34 comments

A random random post topic I know, but growing up in Australia I obviously have some interest here and Sav Rocca punting the other night for the Eagles got me thinking....and the fact that inour division we have McBriar and Rocca punting against us makes me think it is sort of 'skins related

They are being criminally under-utilised in my opinion in the NFL, let me try to explain, though this is much easier to do if I can actually stand there and show you what I mean

NFL punters run in a straight line for 3 steps and then kick the ball and that is there skill

However in Aussie rules, where these Australian punters come from, they are adept at kicking 'snaps shots' which are quick kicks across the shoulder, or on the run at an angle, basically they are adept at whilst being pressured or even tackled, chucking the ball onto their boot and still kicking it 40 or 50 yards, so my question is this..

on 4th and less than 5 why the teams do not send out the Punt Unit, BUT RUN A FAKE EVERY TIME, then if the punter makes the first down all well and good, but if he is aware before he gets to the first down marker that he is about to be tackled, these guys have the skill to quickly thrown the ball onto their boot and still kick it forward a minimum of 30 yards, this means even if the opposition is aware it is going to happen it is still worth trying as these guys can run Right or Left and still give themselves a chance to make it

Go yo YouTube and type in Lance Franklin or Cyril Rioli, or AFL great snap shots or something like that to see how skilled these guys are at getting off long kicks under pressure to see what I mean, this to me is a great opportunity missed

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Haha

I love that idea. Good post.

by SSBlitz on Oct 28, 2009 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

can't do it...

in the NFL a player is not allowed to kick the ball past the line of scrimmage….nice try though…

by poopo on Oct 28, 2009 7:58 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

but if its 4and 3

he will know within 3 yards of the first down (i.e. at the line of scrimmage) whether he will make it though and make his decision whether to keep going or kick at that point

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 7:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the NFL is not ready to do this

If it was 4th and 3 and you were willing to put your punter in this position a pro football coach would choose to go for it instead…right now anyway. You are putting your punter in a hell of a position sending him running toward heavy hitters and having choose to run or try and kick the ball…but I still like the sound of catching a team off guard

by poopo on Oct 28, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

u guys know a lot more than me

about football so u r probably right, its just that sometimes I think in all areas of life we do things a certain way for no other reason than that is the way they have always been done. and I think sometimes an untrained eye without the weight of conventional wisdom impacting his thoughts can sometimes see things better than ppl who are weighed down by conventional wisdom

now I could be wrong in this case….. hell I am probably wrong, but just thought it was an interesting concept to think about

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

no, I agree with your thinking...

I was always in favor of a double option play…

Line up in a pro form with two fast RB in the back field and run to the wide side of field. Have the QB run right with RB running to his right and give the QB the option to run or pitch to the first RB, then give the first RB the option to run or pitch to the other RB or back to the QB…sort of rugby style…only problem with this is the field is much narrower than in rugby and you run out of room quick…the other problem is the major possiblilty of turning over possession which in the NFL is a killer…so this is never done, but would be a hell of a play if it worked…

by poopo on Oct 28, 2009 8:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

now...

you could have the punter scramble a bit and see if a reciever is open or attempt to run toward the line of scrimmage and then choose to run or punt, but chances are he would get walloped…

by poopo on Oct 28, 2009 7:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Only problem.....

if it doesn’t work….it will be a disaster!

by shvd98z24 on Oct 28, 2009 8:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

True, but the it shoudl work

in this situation if the Punter is doing as he is told, It not working just means he kicks it and you still get basically the same result as if you punted anyway, but if it does work you get a first down and keep the ball,,,, it should never break down to the point that the punter is tackled, he should either know he is going to make it and go for it OR realise its not on and kick the ball

plus the area I envisage this happening is them punts between the 40 yard lines, so often they go for a touchback anyway, which means that you basically give away possession for 20 yards fo field position, in this situation it appears to me that possession is much more valuable than 20 yards so the risk would be worth it

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 8:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think....

you are under estimating the risk. Just my opinion…..my buddies played rugby in college (I played lacrosse), and I see where you are coming from. I think in certain situations….this could be a valuable trick, but not as a full time weapon!

by shvd98z24 on Oct 28, 2009 9:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Quiter possible

like I say it is just a concept for discussion from a very uninformed source (i.e me)

Look below what do you think of my drill it low and hard into a player on the receiving team and go for the rebound tactic

is that one feasible

I mean god Knows we cant win at the moment playing normally so we need some strange options to give us a chance

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it was against UVa...

In the UMD game against I think UVA, they tried a similar thing, except the punter absolutely shanked it for like a 3-yard punt or something ridiculous. So unless you’ve got an aussie rules guy, it probably wont work haha.

by milkman41 on Oct 28, 2009 8:16 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

absolutely

the American Punters will nto ahve this skill and it cant be taught in a pre-season

The Aussie guys have been doing this in the School yard since they were 6 years old, it is second nature to them

I also find it funny with the Aussie Punters that nearly all of them in Aussie rules were full forwards or Centre Half Forwards which are the glamour positionsin our game, sort of like a WR they kick all the goals and get the glory for finishing off the hard work of all their teammates….. but then they go to the NFL and the only guy who talks to them is the long snapper

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with you, I’ve watched some Aussie Rules and it was pretty cool, but I had no idea what was going on haha, cuz its not quite rugby either.

by milkman41 on Oct 28, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ur not the only one dude

I have grown up in Australia but I was born in england, when we would occasionally see a Aussie Rules game on TV in England we (my family) would literally say

“oh look heres that game with no rules again” and start watching

It is a great sport though, a couple of NFL players last year were interviewed watching one of our Friday night games (our version of MOnday Night Football i/e the big game of the week) ) and they were amazed at the aerobic capacity of the players, and the hits

The NFL is much more brutal though the biggest argument i have with my friends who do not follow NFL here is trying to explain to them that the Pads are more of a weapon than protection… they jsut dont get it, they always say “ahh NFL players are so weak with their Pads and helmets”

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I read the post about getting rid of poor smaller players and

getting more TEs, FBs, and O-Lineman and running a smash mouth offense. I thought about this and thought that the Redskins would probably be more successful with this type of offense.

Think about having the Redskins line up goaline with two tight ends, and a TE/FB who could motion (travel block) and have two fullbacks and QB in the backfield. Have the offense concentrate on getting at least 3-4 yards per play. You could run all sorts of misdirections, counters, traps and just run the defense into the ground. Could you image springing Sellers and having him run over a small CB. Most CB fear having to tackle tight ends or FBs in the open field. The defense would be forced to take faster, smaller CB, SS, FS off the field and put in bigger players and this is when you setup play action TE dumps and outs…

Anyway, it wouldn’t be pretty but it would be more effective than what we have now…

by poopo on Oct 28, 2009 8:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Probably taking this too far now

when a punted ball hits a player on the recieving team it becomes live and the kicking team can gather it right.

So rather than roosting the ball up high and hoping for a Randle El Style headbutt to make the ball live, what about drilling the ball low and hard directly at a receiving player near the line of scrimmage, then as it bounces off him chasing the ball and picking it up to maintain possession

Is this allowed ro would accidental contact by the receiving team not count as making the ball live for the kicking team

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 8:41 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

would not be high percentage recovery...

punting the ball directly at the line of scrimmage to try and have it hit a defensive player and skip down the field would not be high percentage enough to justify doing it…

what about having the punter scramble letting the two punt team cover guys to get down field near the returner and then have the punter line drive the punt down field hitting the ground so the punter can not fair catch it and has to either let it roll or try and recover with the cover guys right on his butt…

anyway keep the alternative thinking going I like it….

by poopo on Oct 28, 2009 9:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

i meant punt returner not punter btw

by poopo on Oct 28, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

plus we need it if we want to win!!!!!

either that or do something else out of leftfield, like you know, draft NFL ready players beyong the first two rounds or something really out there like that

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 9:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think it would work...

An AFL player is a much different athlete than the average NFL punter. They are fast and strong, they can tackle, and they can take a hit. And yeah, they can still punt the ball 40-50 yards while running full speed across the field.

It would basically require a coach to take a chance on creating a new formation. And there would NEED to be a new formation created because when the return team runs a block play, they can get to the punter pretty fast.

Another thing you would have to think about is punt return coverage. If too many guys are blocking, then the returner might be able to make some good yardage back with so many players out of coverage. So it might be a gamble.

But hey, the NFL is constantly evolving. It’s kind of like the Wildcat. I bet all it would take is some capable players and a coach willing to try out the scheme. It would be worth a try in a preseason game.

I actually think some of those AFL guys would make great WRs or TEs.

Unrelated to punting… search Barry Hall in youtube. He punched a guy in a game last season and knocked him out cold.

by DCtoAustralia on Oct 29, 2009 3:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

WR

not sure if any of the AFL players have the elite speed to succeed as WR’s but they sure have much better hands than many NFL WR’s thats for sure

I agree about the punt team to have a whole new formation though, otherwise like you say you open yourself up to massive returns, the other option is to ensure the kick goes Out of Bounds if you dont make it for the first down

THE barry Hall hit, although it was a sucker punch it is still awesome, the dude is out cold before he hits the ground

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 29, 2009 6:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

A high school team I would play always tried to do this, never worked.

by pas493 on Oct 29, 2009 9:18 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The big difference here

would be the speed of the punter. I believe the position you describe would be similar to a fullback in rugby. I know the fullback on our team is the fastest on our squad, since his job is basically a combination of free safety and punt returner. He fields boots by the opposing squad and advances the ball quickly back near the original gain line, and can kick it at the last second if needed or if their fullback is out of position.
I guess most people here display skepticism about this tactic because they are used to how slow our punters are in American football, but in reality this guy would be an elite athlete if he were to do this in the NFL.

by CarverM on Oct 29, 2009 11:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

took the words from my mouth. Another rugby tactic that would be good for the NFL is the directed out of bounds kick. a good rugby fly half can boot the ball 60 meters directly out of bounds. In rugby, you always get to challenge to get the ball back on an out of bounds play. on a punt in football get a guy to do a line drive punt you could probably pin them inside the 10 on every punt. They won’t be able to return it, but it seems like there’s a greater chance of a touchdown return than a fumble.

by snowburnt on Oct 29, 2009 2:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

the issue there

is the fact that this occurs after a penalty, and thus there is no pressure on the kicker. An NFL punter under no pressure could probably do just as well.

by CarverM on Oct 29, 2009 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

doesn’t always happen after a penalty. During the world cup I saw numerous fullbacks get some nifty boots from behind the 22 when pinned.

by snowburnt on Oct 30, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, true.

You are exposing my ignorance, being a prop… haha

by CarverM on Oct 30, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure if it was a college game

or an NFL team that was using their Aussie punters to run wide to the left or right and somewhat forward to kick and were getting awesome results.

But I believe they changed the rules to not allow the punter to range out of the “pocket” (think the same area that defines whether a QB is grounding our not) and still kick. He can run once he leave the pocket, but cannot kick.

Or maybe I was having a bad dream.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.

by Scott E on Oct 29, 2009 2:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Nick Davis would be perfect

all of the Aussie Rules Punters that have played so far in the NFL have been ex Forwards or in Defenders, lumbering tall guys with a booming leg, however there is an ex-Swans player Nick Davis currently looking for his chance, who could open up new possibilities in the Kicking Game if chosed, he is an ex-small forward/midfielder (AFL POsitions that mean nothing to you guys I understand)
basically he is under 6 foot stocky and as a player was known for his accurate and long kicking and his mobility (and admittedly a poor attitude) With his mobility though he would not only be a good kicker but also an asset in coverage as he has the pace, and sideways mobility to be an effective tackler.

Also it means he has the mobility to swerve and dodge pressure when kicking and makes him perfect for this sort of play I have referred to at the start

Gotta Say one more thing, I am very impressed by the level of responses to what I thought would be a “WTF is that guy talking about topic” HogsHaven best bulletin board site on the Web by far!!!!

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 29, 2009 7:12 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

a rule to ban a punter from scrambling and kicking...

that is really taking the rules too far…I can’t believe they would only allow a kick to occur in a punting pocket….the NFL rule book must be a million pages deep…

by poopo on Oct 29, 2009 10:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Coverage

I think the issue with this is getting people down field when he punts it. I think the two ends on the LOS and anyone in the backfield can run down field at the snap, everyone else has to wait for the punt before leaving. If you send 2 down at the snap, then if the returner can get to the ball, he will have lots of open field to work with. If you send more than 2 down at the snap, the returning team should load the line and go for the block…making it difficult for the punter to attempt a run. Most likely the punting team would get a lot of illegal man down field penalties when he does punt…or if the linemen stay back and block for the running punter, the coverage will be poor.

by liger99 on Oct 29, 2009 10:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This is all good

what is bad is that even with a number of Aussie punters now in the NFL and more on their way, I bet more thought on how to use them has just been expended on this blog than it has been by the highly paid special team coaches at PHili Dallas and Arizona and in the past teh Jets Broncos and Chargers…….rigid thinking is loser thinking

Pommylee

by Pommylee on Oct 30, 2009 1:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs