2010 Draft - Offensive Line
by Kurtstack on Nov 1, 2009 12:28 PM EST
118 comments
I've never seen more of a debacle at O-line than we currently have here with the Washington Redskins. We've waited far too long to seriously address the O-line in the draft and it clearly shows. Free agent O-linemen are often used up old guys or injury prone, so I don't think that free agency is a good way to address this need. We need a group of young prospects who can grow and develop together. The only way to successfully accomplish this is to use every draft pick we have this year on Offensive Linemen.
I'm assuming that we'll have two picks in the top 37 this year (1st and 2nd round). We can definitely pick up two potential pro-bowl linemen with those two picks if we do our homework. Our next picks are then in the 4th, 5th and 7th rounds. It has been shown in the past that you can pick up some quality depth for the O-line and even some diamonds in the rough. That would be 5 young offensive linemen. You can then have a completely open competition in camp for the starting jobs. Competition for playing time brings out the best in NFL players. IF, we stick to this plan, then we should have a much improved offensive line next year and one that would only get better with time (like a fine wine). Then, once we have a youthful talented O-line we can aggressively fill in the skill positions through free agency or through future drafts. We can then draft a QB in the first round of the 2011 draft who would most likely thrive with a young O-line with a year of experience under their belts. Hell we could even draft a top notch young running back in 2011 if we so choose. It's time to start getting younger and clearly the biggest need for that is on the O-line.
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Man, if we drafted 5 OL I would be soooooo happy.
Seriously.
by smutsboy1 on Oct 28, 2009 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I would be happy as well
but being realistic, we can only expect the 1st and 2nd rounders to pan out unless someone better at evaluating talent than Vinny Cerratto is making the picks. His one 3rd round OL pick is looking like crap thus far in his career.
by CarverM on Oct 28, 2009 10:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This is true
But, perhaps if we draft 3 more we’ll get lucky and a third linemen will emerge? In any case the competition for playing time would be a nice off-season story to follow. But, in the end this is just a dream. Based on past history Vinny will draft a QB, TE, WR, and maybe a RB with our picks. None of which will do anything without an O-line to block for them.
by Kurtstack on Oct 28, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
if you look at the depth chart of the teams in the nfl (i got bored and did it), you will see that the starting O lineman for teams such as the Eagles have multiple undrafted free agent starting o linemen.
we need better talent evaluators.
by word2bigbird on Oct 28, 2009 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Historically
The Eagles historically have drafted more o-linemen than most other teams too. Compare that to the Redskins drafting and you can see the difference.
by Kurtstack on Oct 29, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Quantity isn't quality
They drafted all of those o-linemen and still spent $60 million on Jason Peters in free agency (along with Stacy Andrews). After all that, their OL is mediocre, at best, giving up 15 sacks so far this season.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 29, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not necessarily true
You can have quantity and quality. The more shots you take at a target the better your chance of hitting the bullseye.
by Kurtstack on Oct 29, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And
You might actually hit the bullseye multiple times, but you won’t know until you try. You need 5 starting Offensive Linemen to compete in the NFL. There is no other starting position on the field which requires this many starters!!
by Kurtstack on Oct 29, 2009 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correction:
Quantity isn’t necessarily quality.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 29, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
15 sacks
First, the sack total is a very deceptive stat to use to evaluate an offensive line. Yards per rush, and yards per pass should also be looked at. Not to mention the Eagles throw the ball on nearly every play of the game. My point wasn’t so much what that O-line is doing this year for the Eagles (as they have had injury problems) but their track record over the last 5-6 years, which I would have to say is quite good. Sure I don’t have a problem bringing in FAs on the O-line to help the young guys develop and to add depth.
by Kurtstack on Oct 29, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Generally, sacks are a good indication that a team is or isn’t getting pressure (whether it be offensively or defensively). I just don’t believe the Eagles are a good example to use right now for quality of OL. Minnesota, Indianapolis, Tennessee, NYG, Denver, Baltimore, NYJ are all better examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 29, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think...
The Jets are primarily built through FA with Faneca and Woody (and I can’t remember Moore’s deal). They are a mix, that’s for sure — Ferguson and Mangold are the two drafted for sure….
by bigredsnapper on Nov 4, 2009 7:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True
Free agents are certainly a necessity, but you need to start 5 O-linemen and also have 3-4 back-up O-linemen capable of stepping in. That’s
8 or 9 players on your roster. You can probably manage to fill 2-3 of those positions through free agency, but it’s essential that you draft at least a couple O-linemen every year to maintain the necessary quality of depth. Since we have ignored the O-line over the past decade in our drafts, and because our free agent signings at O-line haven’t panned out, we now find ourselves in a position where it is necessary, if not essential, to use all of our draft picks on O-linemen. I would probably take OTs with first two picks, C with the 4th round pick, and Guards with the last two picks. Then we would have some solid depth to start with on the O-line and could consider adding a free agent or two to help out.
by Kurtstack on Nov 4, 2009 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The number of offensive linemen drafted by round
In the last 3 drafts 14-16 linemen were selected in the first 3 rounds.. The games and starts drop off significantly in players selected after the first 3 rounds. UDFA such as Jason Peters (Eagles; developed by the Bills), Shaun O’Hara (Giants), Jamaal Jackson (Eagles) are but a small fraction of the UDFA that tryout and make NFL rosters. I had all of them identified a few months ago. The starters from the 2008 draft after the 3rd round are Anthony Collins (Bengals), Josh Sitton (Packers), John Sullivan (Vikings), Donald Thomas (Dolphins), Demetrius Bell (Bills), and Carl Nicks (Saints). Five other 2008 linemen selected after the 3rd round have played in 6 games this season (in other words, good depth backup players). Eleven out of 26 players of 2008 OL draft picks after the 3rd round (42%) have been worth it. The success rate is not as good as the first 3 rounds, but that happens within the 1st round.
their picks.
by Jefferson1935 on Oct 29, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
OT
Drafting a LT in the 1st Round is the most critical. You can find good Guards and Centers in the 2nds or 3rds, but your All-Pro OTs are generally going to come out of the 1st Round.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 29, 2009 7:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Value of draft picks (all positions)
This was from a Football Outsiders discussion:
Ben Riley: “The first thing to remember when discussing draft picks is the difference between absolute and relative value. …the value of a pick decreases continually throughout the draft, if you measure it based on a player’s projected starts throughout his career. But the distribution is not perfect …: First overall pick: 11.77 mean games started per season. 2nd: 11.79, 3rd: 10.34, 4th: 12.12, 5th: 10.97, 6th: 10.63, 7th: 12.09, 8th: 12.34, 9th: 12.86, 10th: 11.34, 11th: 10.22, 12th: 9.46, 13th: 11.48, 14th: 9.77, 15th: 8.66, 16th: 9.31, 17th: 9.02, 18th: 8.48, 19th: 11.15, 20th: 11.52, 21st: 9.89, 22nd: 8.12, 23rd: 9.55, 24th: 7.99, 25th: 6.92, 26th: 9.31, 27th: 7.79, 28th: 9.08, 29th: 6.62, 30th: 7.94, 31st: 7.51, and 32nd: 7.46
… general proposition, you can see the huge dropoff that occurs in expected starts from the beginning to the end of the first round.”
To find this part of their post use “starts” 2 times in your browser.
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/audibles/2009/audibles-free-agency-2009
by Jefferson1935 on Oct 30, 2009 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
u play your top picks, tho
because 1 you are a bad team and 2 u pay them a ton. doesn’t mean they are GOOD
by bloodbat on Nov 1, 2009 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is possible
since they have decided that there is somewhat of a problem along the O-line. Unfortunately, the 5 draft picks we use will probably be in rounds 5-7, after trading down a few times.
by CJHutch on Oct 28, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just remember...
The same person drafting all these guys is the same one that spent 2 second round picks and a 3rd round pick on receivers that have yet to prove that they can play in the league – for many reasons.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Oct 28, 2009 11:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
When has a second round pick WR been expected to be a starter in their rookie year? The majority of the time it takes wide receivers (outside of the top-of-class ala Calvin Johnson) till their 3rd year to break out. Fred Davis and Devin Thomas showed me they have that potential last game.
by SSBlitz on Oct 28, 2009 12:34 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Colston, Boldin, DeSean, and Royal in recent years did it because they got playing time. Thomas/Kelly/Davis are just not getting the playing time to develop.
by liger99 on Oct 28, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Manningham
the guy from the Giants who burned us for a touchdown is a 2nd yr guy.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Oct 28, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yeah but
we have no idea if they don’t get PT b/c they suck, or they suck b/c they don’t get PT
I mean, why was Zorn starting James Thrash over DThomas last year? Insane loyalty?
by smutsboy1 on Oct 28, 2009 5:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea why they played thrash over thomas. I can only guess that he and Kelly do well in practice, but are somehow overwhelmed by nfl game speed and conditions/situation once they get on the field…opening the door for a vet to play ahead of them.
by liger99 on Oct 29, 2009 1:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ironically, DL is very deep and OL is shallow in 2010
Next year’s draft isn’t going to have a Jake Long or a Joe Thomas, and there isn’t going to be anything like the historically deep crop of OL from last year where a guy like Oher can fall to #23. The two consensus first-rounders are Okung and Buluga, who are very good. I agree with your sentiment that our priority has to go to linemen, but the flip side of the youth movement is that there are going to be some very solid veteran tackles and guards available next year. To get one or two rookie OL in the first 5 rounds and then a good pair of veterans via trade or free agency would be huge for us.
Remember that we got Pete Kendall for a fourth rounder in ’06. If you could do that again next year, you absolutely would.
HERE ON PLANET EARTH: We should probably start framing the discussion knowing that our 1st round pick next year is not going to be an offensive lineman. It’s going to be Claussen, Bradford, Locker, or McCoy (or traded).
by sofutomygaha on Oct 28, 2009 12:48 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
hell, if Vinny's
still in charge, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the same “we’ll get ONE right” approach they took in the ’08 draft and trade up so they can take TWO quarterbacks.
by CJHutch on Oct 28, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
It’s gonna have to be a mixture of draft picks and FA acquisitions for our OL. I would love to somehow get another 1st Round pick because there are a ton of good defensive prospects coming out next year. OL has obviously GOT to be priority 1, but could you imagine another Haynesworth-caliber addition to our DL or a true OLB to free up Orakpo?!
Here are a few possible 1st – 2nd round OL prospects:
- Russell Okung (OT, Oklahoma State, 6’5", 302 lbs.)
- Trent Williams (OT, Oklahoma, 6’5", 318 lbs.)
- Charles Brown (OT, Southern California, 6’6", 285 lbs.)
- Mike Iupati (OG, Idaho, 6’5", 330 lbs.)
- Selvish Capers (OT, West Virginia, 6’5", 298 lbs.)
- Ciron Black (OT, LSU, 6’5", 322 lbs.)
- Matt Tennant (C, Boston College, 6’4", 291 lbs.)
- Jon Asamoah (OG, Illinois, 6’5", 315 lbs.)
- Jason Fox (OT, Miami, 6’7", 314 lbs.)
- Brandon Carter (OG, Texas Tech, 6’7" 344 lbs.)
I watched Brandon Carter virtually shut down Nebraska’s Ndamukong Suh, who may be one of the best DTs in the country (NCAA) right now. All of these guys will obviously rise and fall in the draft rankings. Some may not even come out this year or end up being busts. But if you watch college football, these are a few linemen to keep an eye on (especially if your name is Vinny Cerrato).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 28, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think
Charles Brown (OT, Southern California, 6’6", 285 lbs.)
would be a fitting pick for the this FO.
“Linus. You’ve got to lose the blanket.”
by CJHutch on Oct 28, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Brandon Carter
Has the attitude that our current O-line lacks. We could really use a guy like that. The face painting is a nice touch.
by Kurtstack on Oct 28, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
6'7" 344lbs
is also a nice touch. That frame would be beautiful in burgundy and gold.
by CarverM on Oct 28, 2009 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He'll be easy to get
Carter is slipping- scouts.com has him going in the 7th round or undrafted at this point. He’s huge, but he’s slow and having a lot of discipline problems. He looks more like a guard to me than a tackle.
by sofutomygaha on Oct 28, 2009 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my mistake there. They’ve got him back at guard.
by sofutomygaha on Oct 28, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree, he’s definitely better suited for the interior.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 28, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We don't really pull our guards anyway
that style of brutally effective power running seems to have been left in the Joe Gibbs era. As for Carter, however, he was named an All-American last year after not giving up A SINGLE SACK. Yes, we’ll take that, thank you.
by CarverM on Oct 28, 2009 3:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a guy that big could be problematic on the inside. A 6-7 guy is going to obstruct a lot of passing lanes at guard, especially if our future qb isn’t at least 6-4/6-5
by MrRemy on Nov 1, 2009 4:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A player like this:75 Boone, Alex T 6-7 330 22 0 Ohio State
is on the 49ers practice squad. He may be better than some of the Skins current 53 man active offensive linemen roster and is a free agent for the taking.
by Jefferson1935 on Oct 28, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alex Boone
will not last long. Tony Pashos is on injured reserve.
by Jefferson1935 on Oct 28, 2009 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 28, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He won't be worth shinola...
once the ’roid rage wears off. Another Bozworth – bet on it. Snappy dresser, though. :)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Oct 28, 2009 4:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This will never happen, but if the Redskins could get Williams in the first, Iupati in the second, and then an elite free agent like Marcus McNeill or Jahri Evans, we would have our line completely back on track.
by sofutomygaha on Oct 28, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s mind-numbing how much sense that makes, and how far that would go towards winning the fans back. At least Cerrato wouldn’t look like such a clown when he makes statements like…
We tried to address the line.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 28, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
THANK YOU VA!
I’ve been asking for something like this for a while.
SpotieOtieDopalicious
by Rekka on Oct 28, 2009 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no prob, bro.
It’s been on my mind lately also – for some reason.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 28, 2009 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Redskins draft position versus other teams with better draft pick positions
Offensive linemen needs of the Rams (Jason Smith 09, John Greco 08), Bucs (Arron Spears 07), Lions (Gosder Cherilus 08), etc. (however it works out by the end of the season). Also whether they keep their draft picks. How many of the top 40 offensive linemen (if the Skins pick 8th) will be available for the Skins to pick? A review of current depth charts of teams having better draft pick position would be a good idea.
Rams depth chart – http://www.nfl.com/teams/st.louisrams/depthchart?team=STL.
- RT -73 A. Goldberg, 77 J. Smith RG – 68 R. Incognito 79 J. Greco C – 60 J. Brown
66 M. Setterstrom LG – 63 J. Bell 62 R. Allen LT – 70 A. Barron 64 P. Trautwein
Bucs depth chart – http://www.nfl.com/teams/tampabaybuccaneers/depthchart?team=TB
RT – 65 J. Trueblood 69 D. Dotson RG -75 D. Joseph 72 M. Johnson C – 52 J. Faine 61 J. Compas LG – 76 J. Zuttah 74 S. Murphy LT – 70 D. Penn
Lions depth chart – http://www.nfl.com/teams/depthchart?team=DET
RT – 77 G. Cherilus 68 J. Jansen RG – 66 S. Peterman 63 M. Ramirez C – 51 D. Raiola
65 D. Gandy LG – 70 D. Loper LT -76 J. Backus 74 E. Salaam
This list could be expanded, but there is enough info to give some indication of needs.
by Jefferson1935 on Oct 28, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
You should break this down , Jeff, and make a separate post. I’d be really interested to go into this some more.
by sofutomygaha on Oct 28, 2009 4:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Other teams with the potential to have a top-10 draft pick (at this point)
- Detroit almost has to go OT. They chose to go with a QB and TE with their 1st two picks last year.
- St. Louis will probably go QB with their 1st pick. They took OT Jason Brown last year and Bulger is clearly finished.
- Tampa Bay could go OL or skill positions or defense. Who knows?
- Kansas City might go with an OT to protect their Cassell investment or they may opt to go with another defensive player or even RB with their 1st pick.
- Cleveland could go any direction except maybe QB.
- Jacksonville needs skill positions (mainly WRs) and defensive players
- Tennessee would probably go DT or another defensive player. Maybe QB or WR, though. Probably not OT.
- Washington has a laundry list of needs:
1) OL {OT, OG, C} – OT is most important.
2) OLB
3) CB
4) QB
5) RB
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 28, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Surely not CB
forgive me if I;m wrong but isnt our entire secondary other than Horton made up of former 1st round picks
I know Rogers drops a lot of potential interceptions but he still is deflecting the pass at the very least in this situation isnt he
please dont say this sort of thing it depresses me, I thought the secondary and D-Line basically our whole defence except for someone to help London in the linebackers was lookign good
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Oct 28, 2009 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Carlos Rogers
I have openly defended Rogers on here numerous times because, IMO, a CB who prevents a WR from making catches and scoring TDs is better than one who has 10 INTs, but gets burned on a regular basis. HOWEVER, that double move DeSean Jackson put on Rogers for a TD was the 3rd TD Rogers has given up so far this year. If he’s going to drop every INT opportunity he gets and give up TDs… well, that’s just unacceptable. It’s not like our D-line isn’t getting pressure either. Right now, we are 5th in the league in sacks with 18, which is night and day better than last season (thank you Haynesworth). The biggest reason I think we need another CB is for depth. Especially since Blache and Co. apparently have no faith whatsoever in Vinny’s brilliant 3rd round draft pick, Kevin Barnes (another Terp bust?).
Don’t get me wrong though, our Secondary and D-line are solid. They’re still holding teams to 17.6 ppg, which is 6th best in the NFL. We will see how that stat is affected by a much tougher schedule coming up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Oct 29, 2009 9:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
time of possession also a factor
This doesn’t speak to Carlos in particular, but it’s worth noting that the skins defense is on the field for about 5 minutes per game more than the average NFL team.
The longer the defense is on the field, the more susceptible you are to big plays. Rogers guards the #1 WR, so he’s the one who gets burned.
by sofutomygaha on Oct 29, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
u get to see a lot
more of the skins than me (one of the reasons I have fallen in love with this site is getting a diverse range of views on whats happening with the Skins and not just relying on Sonny and Sams comments on game day and assorted columnists articles that focus more on ownership that then play on the field the day after)
So I thank you for the insight…….
So one more question
As I say I mainly only get to see highlights in Australia and because he is a big hitter I have a very good impression of Landry (cos big hits make highlight reels) am I right to believe in LaRon or is he susceptible to giving up big plays too???
BTW I agree with the below post about Time Of Possession, I think that it does leave you succeptible to the big plays, not just because of physical exhaustion but also the mental exhaustion of all the extra concentration, especialyl for a CB, one mistake and your dead
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Oct 29, 2009 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LaRon goes for the big hit
every play. That’s why he makes the highlight reels. He still hasn’t developed the coverage abilities and turnover production that will secure his place among the Polamalus and Ed Reeds of the league. Its a shame, because he probably has better physical skills than those guys, in my opinion.
by CarverM on Oct 29, 2009 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so is it our fault
if he has these great skills and was productive in College (one of the few draft picks the Skins have made that everyone agreed with) does it mean that in DC we dont develop our players as well as other teams……… which is tough to say because apparantly our Secondary Coach is one of the good guys of the NFL
maybe its conditioning or the culture rather than the straight up coaching or maybe there is no issue at all….what do you think???
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Oct 29, 2009 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
lack of focus and professionalism
on Landry’s part would be my guess. Gray is a great coach, from everything I’ve heard about him.
by CarverM on Oct 30, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
bad personell
the issue with landry seems to me to be that we’re playing him essentially out of position. We’re asking him to be our free safety and playing him 30 yards off the line on every play, when in reality he’d be an ideal strong safety who plays closer to the line and helps more in run support. We should take a look at converting a cb into a fs, a la a charles woodson or rod woodson and moving landry up closer to the line. Springs would have been ideal for this type of move, but anything to take the pressure of playing center field off of landry, who just doesn’t seem to be built for it
by MrRemy on Nov 1, 2009 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PLus then we might see him with some Sacks right
I seem to remember there was alot of talk abotu Landry being an attacking, cross the line of Scrimmage tackle in the backfield safety in college and I know the TAylor thing hurt because (and I could be wrong) this forced him out of position,
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Nov 1, 2009 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
SUH
for the bucs
Why do you kill threads????
by Some other guy who does not care on Nov 8, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
can we trade any of our offensive players for draft picks to scoop some of these young bucks up …. we need to see if portis moss cooley can get us some extra freakin picks
portis moss cooley will be old by the time we fix our oline so if we can get somthing for them now we should jump on that
by eltacoman on Nov 10, 2009 5:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
NOOOOOOOO
Thanks to over performers like CP, we cannot afford a top ranked QB. Resign JC, get as many reasonable O-linemen we can and start molding the team to pick up a star QB in a year or two after we knock the cap down (I know – next year probably not a cap year – hurray if Dan steps up with a huge hole in the wallet). Use the rest of this year to develop our younger players and get them playing as a cohesive unit on all 3 downs.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Oct 28, 2009 4:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm reposting something that got shot to the bottom of the page
NOOOOOOOO
Thanks to over performers like CP, we cannot afford a top ranked QB. Resign JC, get as many reasonable O-linemen we can and start molding the team to pick up a star QB in a year or two after we knock the cap down (I know – next year probably not a cap year – hurray if Dan steps up with a huge hole in the wallet). Use the rest of this year to develop our younger players and get them playing as a cohesive unit on all 3 downs.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Oct 28, 2009 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wat I wont in the Draft
I wont to get Colt McCoy in the first then in all the other rounds we have i wont to get Offensive line man
by Moe_Abdulkadir21 on Oct 28, 2009 1:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
in the off chance the Redskins' FO reads these posts
please keep such nonsense to yourself. The Redskins haven’t successfully drafted a QB in over a decade. The definition of insanity is to repeatedly perform the same action, expecting a different result.
You are wont to increase your football knowledge, to use that word correctly. (I have noticed a lot of grammar advice on this board lately, and have decided to contribute to the education of the HH readership.)
by CarverM on Oct 28, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Colt McCoy
he cant throw a pass beyond 30 yds. He’s Chad Pennington with some running ability.
by Tiller56 on Nov 5, 2009 10:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Redskins need to trade as many players as they can trade after the season,and pick many draft picks try to rebuild
redskins need to fire Jim Zorn and coaching staff after the season,bring in Shannahand or Cower to rebuild the team,need a real GM WHO CAN MAKE TRADES andrebuild the team the thru the draft. sign campbell for 1year contract and then trade him,for what ever they can get. trade as many players as they can afford to trade,and try to rebuild team
by ghost rider on Oct 28, 2009 1:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
they don't have to "sign" Campbell.....
He is a restricted FA….so, they just place a level 1-3 tender on him….if another team signs him and they don’t want to match….they automatically get picks for compensation!
by shvd98z24 on Oct 28, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that ain't gonna happen
but wouldn’t it be poetic if Shanahan were hired somewhere and gave us picks for Campbell? I know, I know. Bizarro universe.
by CJHutch on Oct 28, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In a Snyderatto Universe
Logic does not apply.
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
by GeoFly on Nov 1, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It would be great to actually have extra picks for once instead of fewer
I love the draft, and being a Redskins fan, makes it a painful day. It’s so much more fun to cheer for a player the Redskins drafted than one we signed via free agency. These players just seem so much more like ‘real’ redskins.
by CarverM on Oct 28, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Agree with trading players
But who wants what we have? I would love to see us trade CP and Moss, but what are we going to get in return? A third at best for CP and maybe a 4th for Moss. If Moss were still in his 20’s we may get a 2nd, but no one will give better than a 4th for him now.
by Tiller56 on Nov 5, 2009 10:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
if we can really get a 3rd and 4th for them helllz yeah i would throw Cooley too for another pick for more Oline …. REBUILD
by eltacoman on Nov 10, 2009 5:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sooooooo
the plan is to have a line but no one to throw to. Sillyness…
I would trade our number 1 pick for more 2nd and 3rd draft picks.
KEEP Campbell(will work until we can develop better), Cooley(cause he is our best receiver and a good blocker), Moss(for a slot WR)
TRADE Portis, Randle EL (for for lower round draft picks).
QB… Campbell
WR… Thomas + New guy (from Draft or FA)
Slot… Moss
TE… Cooley, Davis
Line… All new young 280+ pounders (from draft)
Center… new 300+ pounder
RB… Cartwright and Betts maybe Mason(split back or single or I forms)
FB… Sellers (Actually use him to run the ball… I form)
We can do this realisticly. Thats only 6 picks from the draft.
Keep in mind that the year after next there will be no pay Caps. That means that it will be a free for all when it comes to FAs. Key players will be jumping ship for the big paydays. This will virtually be a teams reset. Also, or new linemen will have a year of development under their belts.
With the model above we can be a play-off contention team in 2 years.
"When the rich wage WAR its the POOR that die!!!"
by milcmann on Nov 11, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t want us to just draft o-lineman. Obviously that needs to be our focal point, but we always have other needs. We need a linebacker to take over for Orakpo so he can move permanently to d-line. We also need someone that can take over for Fletcher, I know we have HB Blades and he would fit in nicely but that would still be a significant downgrade. We also need to find a running back capable of replacing Portis in the long run.
by travisjh86 on Oct 28, 2009 4:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
in the long run...
no pun intended, eh?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Oct 28, 2009 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I like Rock at the moment
and I still think Marcus Mason deserves a real shot.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Oct 28, 2009 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What?
Does it matter how good your defense is when your offense is as pathetic as ours? You have to score points to win football games. We need to draft offensive lineman. End of story.
by williamhudsonlink on Nov 11, 2009 3:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I’m simply saying we can’t just go and use all of our picks on offensive lineman, that would be ridiculous.
End of story.
by travisjh86 on Nov 17, 2009 5:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If the O-line is addressed sufficiently
and we keep JC, Portis should be back to form next year (well rested), our younger players are integrated and getting some experience this year – no reason we can’t be a 10-6 team next year. Especially since we will have another bottom dweller schedule after this year.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Oct 28, 2009 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
After that...
Premier Running Back
Premier QB
Premier Secondary
Add Depth at D-line
woo hoo!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana.
by Scott E on Oct 28, 2009 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tebow... Tebow... Tebow... Tebow...
Only half kidding…
by Boo. on Oct 28, 2009 10:58 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
If we decide to cut our losses with the Oline and play A-11 style, Tebow is our man.
by sofutomygaha on Oct 28, 2009 11:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great ideas.......
All good to great ideas, but until we:
1. Jettison Cerrato
2. Destroy the photos he has of Snyder with the goat.
None of the solid coaches will want to come here.
I would grab Chris Polian make him GM.
Hire a coach who inspires, not some pandering “I want everyone to like me” guy like Zorn.
He was clearly fallback plan #8 when he was hired.
Cerrato was fired by Marty who clearly saw this guy was a waste of time.
Who hires coordinators and staff before the head coach??
We desperately need someone running our draft who knows that you build from the O-line out. We can have all the skill position guys in the world, but they won’t do s#%!
without a solid line in front of them.
Yet still I wore my Skins hardhat on a jobsite the other day and a guy said “Hey you should burn that hat!” I could only respond that lately the thought had crossed my mind…..
Sasquatch Jim
by Ftlskins on Oct 29, 2009 8:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
One more thing
I forgot to mention that each team uses a different style of offense which requires a certain style of offensive linemen. Offensive linemen that fit one system may not fit another. Since our system seems to change every year, it kind of makes it difficult to draft O-linemen that fit our offensive system. We just go out and get any old offensive linemen, which doesn’t really work too well. Cerratto clearly doesn’t know enough to draft Offensive Linemen that fit our offensive schemes, so all this may be a waste of time anyway.
by Kurtstack on Oct 29, 2009 12:42 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
zorn should also have open tryouts like in INVINCIBLE
report to fedex field, dc-area fatties, for two-a-days over the bye week. let’s nip this thing in the bud
by bloodbat on Nov 1, 2009 12:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
A quarterback is where it's going
You all know it and I know it. The fact that we didn’t use a single pick on O-line in the 09 draft speaks volumes. Our top pick next draft is going to be one of the hot qb’s. It’s just what I foresee happening and why this team is the travesty it currently is. Everyone knows the real problems facing the organization except for those with the power to do something about it.
by SkinsOsTerps on Nov 1, 2009 1:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately
I believe you are right, but I hope that you are wrong.
by Kurtstack on Nov 1, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let me put this out there
If, and that’s a big IF, we could somehow land the next Phillip Rivers, Ben Roethlisberger, Jay Cutler, Matt Ryan, etc. with our 1st pick without trading up, I would be willing to go QB. Yes, he would get killed that 1st year (unless we brought in an All-Pro LT in free agency). But, the next season we could draft an OT in the 1st round. Good LTs are available every year in the 1st round of the draft, whereas “franchise” QBs only seem to come around every 2 or 3 years – usually in bunches (i.e. Roethlisberger, Rivers, lil’ Manning).
That being said, with our present GM, I would rather just go with the easier pick – LT. It would be harder to screw that up, as long as we are picking in the top-10. We’ll just have to hope to one day find a great QB down the road. I know we’ve won in the past with great lines and average QBs, but I’m really sick of having the worst QB in the division.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Nov 1, 2009 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I hope I'm wrong as well
but I’m not as optimistic about such an outcome as you are VA_Skin. There’s a lot of talk out there about the “franchise qb” and frankly I think a lot of it is bunk. I mean, it’s easy to mention Eli Manning now but remember what the beginning of his career was like? Quarterback is a sexy position but quarterbacks don’t win games or super bowls by themselves, teams do. Look at the Patriots last season with Cassel. Obviously Brady is the better QB but they still won more than 10 games with Cassel last year because they have a good all around system and team. He’s the same QB now in Kansas City but look at where their season is. The only people they’re capable of beating is us.
Franchise QBs don’t just exist as these mythical figures that get brought in and run offenses. They occur when a well run organization picks a QB with the kind of talents that fit their system, supports them with complimentary players, and allows them to learn and grow. There’s no such thing as a franchise quarterback in the draft. Rather they are developed by good organizations. Our last super bowl winning QB in Mark Rypien was not what anyone would call a “franchise qb”. Jason Campbell, in my opinion, once could have been that guy had our organization done things correctly. I just don’t see the point in bringing in some other young guy with talent and expect him to turn things around when the organization is making all the wrong moves. I mean, remember the terrified expression on Patrick Ramsey’s face every time the ball was hiked to him? I sure do.
by SkinsOsTerps on Nov 1, 2009 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
nicely said
I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy.
by GeoFly on Nov 1, 2009 5:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
I do remember Ramsey. And I do agree with most of your comment. I just can’t think of too many top QBs drafted recently (in this decade) that weren’t highly regarded coming out of college (Brady- 2000, Brees- 2001, who else?). I can think of a few that were highly regarded, but haven’t panned out (Leinart, Young, Russell). I would just hate to see us finally draft some OL and get our record back up to .500 (or slightly better), only to miss out on quality QBs in the 1st round because we’re picking later in the round. IMO, we haven’t had a “franchise” QB since Theismann. I’m not advocating that we have to go QB. But at this point, I’m also not sure that we should definitely pass on a QB. The important thing is to not reach for a player at wherever we pick or, worst of all, trade away picks to move up/get a FA.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIX3S0f-2c&feature=player_embedded
by VA_Skin on Nov 1, 2009 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well said
plus you have to factor in (well I beleive you should factor in anyway) the cost
Top 5 picks cost a fortune in Salary regardless of their position, so if you are going to invest all this money in a player you have to ask yourself how much money you really want to spend on that position that he plays… in this case as much as the need for a O-lineman is glaring, you really need to stop and think is it worth $55 million over 5 years or whatever the slotting will work out too, A quality QB yeah you can justify that coin, but can you do it for an O-linemen I-m not so sure
Trading back down I feel is the way to go, but so few ppl want to trade up, if we could trade say the 5th pick for something like the 12th and 22nd that would be great to get 2 o-linemen there who would probably still be the 4th or 5th best in the country, or even trading down to say 1 first rounder like the 15th and 2 second rounders may be the answer
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Nov 1, 2009 7:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Trading Down
If we could trade down I’m all for it. I just don’t think that many teams are willing to trade up. If it’s possible I completely agree. But, I believe offensive line is the most important position on the field, and with Chris Samuels retiring, money shouldn’t really be a factor holding us back from drafting O-linemen high.
by Kurtstack on Nov 5, 2009 9:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe not...
Even Danny & Vinny have got to be feeling the heat from both the fans & the rest of the football world concerning the state of Redskin football. I mean they have to address the O-line in the upcoming draft & off-season don’t they?? It’s not possible that anyone is truly that ignorant of their own football teams needs right?? RIGHT??? :0(
by ENsDad27 on Nov 1, 2009 2:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Just imagine
If we have the 3rd or 4th pick and the top 2 QB’s in the country, say Clausen and Bradford or whoever the consensus ends up being, just turns around to Snyder and says “if you draft me I will not sign I will sit out for a year, I have no interest in being slaughtered behind that patchwork O-line every week and shortening my career by 4 years thankyou very much”
Maybe that, and only that, might get it through their thick skulls that it starts on the lines
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Nov 1, 2009 5:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
It has happened before
That.s actually a very good point, both John Elway & Eli Manning told the Colts & Chargers to not draft them because they would not play there
by ENsDad27 on Nov 1, 2009 7:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
might be a short term pain long term gain situation
if that happens hey, yeah we miss out on the QB, but we get a change of attitude from Ownership.
I think it is unlikely to happen though, only because the Skins are one of the few NFL teams that have a following beyond their region (hell I have never even been to America and they are my team) so these players would see playing for Washington being a good thing for outside endorsements
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Nov 1, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is the best post on this blog this year. I call the strategy BOLA. Best Offensive Lineman Available. every pick should be used on the Best Offensive Lineman Available or traded for other picks that are used for the BOLA. and unless there is a standout candidate for LT that is clearly better than other candidates, they should trade down with their first pick and they may be able to get two for one. does a high first rounder get you two second rounders? maybe. I think the skins will have a high first round pick next year.
by hsoup on Nov 1, 2009 8:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
BOLA is the way to go!! Let’s hope we can get it through to the front office. Obviously Vinny’s best player available approach hasn’t worked out very well. So let’s go BOLA!! !
by Kurtstack on Nov 5, 2009 10:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
done and done
I’m all in. The defense looks good, the wideouts are hopefully improving, Pennington is a FA, and it’s a better gamble that Portis/Betts holds up than that Thomas/Dockery does,
so…
BOLA in ’10!!!!!!!!!!!
by sofutomygaha on Nov 6, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ofensive line men
the Green bay packers center is good and he cam from the 7th round pick and is starting. Anything can happen with young talent what would make me happy in the 2011 draft is if the Redskins draft Colt McCoy and All the other offensive line men, and or maybe a running back
by Moe_Abdulkadir21 on Nov 1, 2009 9:23 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Bola Picks
If I were GM…… & this is assuming that we pick all O-Line…
Bruce Campbell / Maryland 1st Round
Ciron Black / LSU 2nd Round
Chris Scott / Tenn. 4th Round
Rodney Hudson / FSU 5th Round
Jamie Thomas / Maryland 6th Round
Jon Cooper / Ok. 7th Round
It’s not just acquiring the talent tho, it’s more important to be able to develop the available talent, but if we were to hit on half of the picks I believe we would again be competitive/good/maybe even very good….
by ENsDad27 on Nov 7, 2009 2:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Screw it all....... The house is burning
I wish we could draft an entire 53 man team…
"When the rich wage WAR its the POOR that die!!!"
by milcmann on Nov 9, 2009 4:06 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
NFL offensive line talent
I put this link in another thread but I will repeat it here since I did not have the page working earlier. Talent Evaluation Factors for Offensive Linemen (OL)? -
http://home.comcast.net/~fwroy/NFL%20OL%20Talent.html
A review of the OL listed as starters in this file for the 2008 and 2009 seasons basically supports the lead post in this thread “2010 Draft – Offensive Line” by Kurtstack. It is probable that if enough OL are selected beyond the first 15 including UDFA that there will be some starters found. The success rate could be 1 out of 4. It may take 2 or 3 years before such players are starters. For example, It took Jason Peters about 3 years to become a starter. Eleven of the 2009 “new starters” out of 32 were selected after the 14th OL was selected.
by Jefferson1935 on Nov 14, 2009 8:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Drafting a lineman in the 2nd rd
and picking up a younger free agent tackle could be the answer. Rabach and Dock are solid. If we can pick up a FA LT and draft a RT, we should be vastly improved. I’m sure we can get OG’s and C’s with our later round picks to give some depth. Keep Heyer, Reinhardt, and Williams as backups, and cut the rest of the bums.
by Tiller56 on Nov 15, 2009 9:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Another 7 games to evaluate line play of current OL
The game against the Broncos offers some hope, but it is too early to get excited. Apparently Levi did a good job after a long lay off. Derrick Dockery, Chad Rinehart, and Will Montgomery are under contract for next season. An upgrade at center would be good. According to Football Outsider statistics the Skins have not done well running up the middle which implicates Casey Rabach. The Mike Williams experiment should end, his pass blocking is terrible. There are two offensive tackles on the practice squad and others on other teams, i.e., Alex Boone (is fast enough and strong enough) – http://www.nfl.com/players/alexboone/profile?id=BOO259235 ; http://cfn.scout.com/2/841540.html – 40-Yard 5.17 Reps 33
by Jefferson1935 on Nov 15, 2009 11:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah but Our problem isnt just who is starting.. Whe also have no depth at all... Whole new line... FA or Rookie does not matter to me..
"When the rich wage WAR its the POOR that die!!!"
by milcmann on Nov 17, 2009 2:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
With the salaries Danny is paying Haynesworth, D-Hall, Moss, Randle El, Portis, etc, we will not be able to bring in a top ten OL pick and a top free agent OL. It just is not possible to fit under the cap. CP, Moss, and Randel El have to go for us to even consider going after something like this. The Skins are in a really bad spot with the cap and next year will only be worse until we dump some of these huge salaries.
by Knubles and Bits on Nov 19, 2009 9:57 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
unless its an uncapped year
it would actually be in Snyders best interest to extend the collective bargaining process even if the other 31 owners are happy with a deal, so that we can use an uncapped year to re-structure contracts in a way that pays the majority of the contract value in the uncapped year, thereby freeing up space in future years..
There are risks to this, players getting a 70mil of a 100mil deal and then getting injured or demaning a trade or whatever, but its gotta be more enticing to someone like Danny than being kept out of the FA market for the next 3 years thru lack of Cap Room
Pommylee
by Pommylee on Nov 19, 2009 10:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
True, but most likely with Dan Snyder an uncapped year would be a lot more problems in the future. He most likely wouldn’t look at is as an opportunity to restructure contracts, but as an opportunity to sign all the top free agents and set himself up for a huge mess the following year.
by Knubles and Bits on Nov 20, 2009 1:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Talent Balance
The strategy for talent balance while also maintaining and developing a quality roster with depth is tricky. The Redskins’ FO has put them in a bind. J.I. Halsell took “a look at the Redskins’ flawed approach to roster-building. Given that I worked in the front office of the organization for two seasons, I have the unique perspective of having seen that philosophy first hand. As a native Washingtonian, it pains me to see the current state of the organization.”
http://www.footballoutsiders.com/under-cap/2009/under-cap-cap-mismanagement
See the article for more details.
KevinE, Va-Skins, and others have looked at the Redskins’ roster as having generally 25 players on offense and 25 on defense as well as 3 special team players. Teams that play a 3-4 defense will have more linebackers typically than a 4-3 defense. The need for faster guys on special teams limits somewhat the ~300 pounders on both offensive and defensive lines, which in turn limits the project OL players were lower round draft picks and UDFA can dwell.
The following file is one that I put together from various sources and is a work-in-progress. I updated it with some other articles and info on new OL starters on 10/19.
Feel free to copy the file and upload it onto a HTML editor for your own use. Just amend the file name to post your version elsewhere.
Talent Evaluation Factors for Offensive Linemen (OL)? -
http://home.comcast.net/~fwroy/NFL%20OL%20Talent.html
by Jefferson1935 on Nov 20, 2009 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
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