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Coach Zorn inexcusably leaves valuable points on the board, or, why "Extra" "Points"... aren't

In his short tenure as our Head Coach, Jim Zorn already has proven the disturbing proclivity for leaving points on the board. This kind of dramatic coaching error is simply inexcusable moving forward and I demand remedy immediately lest it cost us in the future. We all know what I'm talking about, the precise play in question where Coach Zorn foolishly left points on the board when the correct decision was different than the one chosen. It was, of course, in the Giants game at the close of the 2nd quarter after a Jason Campbell 12 yard touchdown pass to Santana Moss. With the score 16-6, Coach Zorn inexplicably, inexcusably, irrationally and illogically sent Shaun Suisham out to kick an extra point. This kind of blatant error in judgment by our head coach, by any head coach, cannot be tolerated. Coaches should almost always go for two points after touchdowns.

An analysis of the 2-point conversion was pending after the New Orleans game on Saturday. After Clinton Portis' first touchdown, down 17-15, Jim Zorn sent out the offense for a 2-point conversion that ultimately failed. Some discussion followed from the broadcasters on why this was or was not the proper time to go for two. Reader dr WNC represents the skeptic on that strategy:

I hate going for two points early. Just take the one, it's only the third qtr.

I am not picking on dr WNC. I think that pretty well covers the opinion of many fans in that particular instance while also encapsulating the thoughts of the NFL nation, including head coaches, fans, owners, players, and most commenters, generally, about the EXTRA POINT (XP) vs. the 2-Point Conversion (2PC). On Tuesday September 16th, 2008, the consensus is that after a touchdown is scored the correct move, generally speaking, is to go for the XP. Deviations from this strategy, which by elimination means exclusively the 2PC, require justification, and not the other way around.

Before I examine the issue in detail, if you're still reading (very few or none of you will finish this post) I want to encourage reader(s) to engage this problem the same manner that one of the nation's premier Constitutional Law scholars once put the evaluation of Constitutionalism to his students: Imagine you were an alien who visited earth in a spaceship and had the opportunity to review the way of life of the inhabitants, from their civil, social, and political structures all the way down to the really important stuff like the rules governing what one can and cannot do after touchdowns, and then contemplate how you might do things differently were you them. I ask reader(s) do this for two reasons: 1) Constitutionalism is at least almost as much a sacred cow in this country as the hegemony of the XP over the 2PC. A fair evaluation of the strategies in competition is impossible unless reader(s) escape their comfort zones. This analysis will require you to really question your merely traditionally held beliefs in favor of a more objective analysis unfettered by your currently held biases. I hope putting yourself in a space ship many miles above earth with the point of view of a detached alien species will better enable you to do this. 2) More on this in a moment, but the way the human psyche works -- and I'll be quoting scholarly work to support this proposition -- sends people to reach differing conclusions about the same fundamental questions depending exclusively on the manner in which a problem or controversy is presented. This is of course illogical, as the same question presented two separate ways should lead to the same result. You'll find it doesn't. Hence the importance of framing an issue in such a way to expose the illogical tendencies of the human mind such that it reaches disparate conclusions to the same controversy or, in the present case, to actually conclude towards the wrong and irrational conclusion in favor over the proper one.

Before the analysis begins I'd like to take care of some preliminary matters. When I planned this post on Sunday, it seemed like an original idea whose time had come. Unfortunately Gregg Easterbrook beat me to the punch. Today's edition of Tuesday Morning Quarterback engages this very question in the context of Mike Shanahan's decision to win over the Chargers on a 2PC rather than XP it for overtime. This would be a good time to acknowledge that Gregg Easterbrook has been a 2PC advocate for a long time and is due all the credit in the world if you ultimately reach the same conclusion that I've come to. I'm going to use some of the data cited by Easterbrook in his article and perhaps some quotes, though suffice to say I think reader(s) will benefit from a brief reading of today's TMQ.

I am indebted to Michael David Smith and Aaron Schatz of Football Outsiders. I am indebted to them generally for their work at that website because I find it very informative and entertaining, and to them specifically for aiding me in this post. Despite what felt like hours of snooping the web and NFL.com, I simply could not find statistics on 2PC attempts vs. successful conversions over the years. What little data I did find was incomplete or guess work or old. Shortly after contacting Aaron Schatz I received the answer to my inquiry, and it is his data that I use here unflinchingly; I trust Schatz. Here I plug their Pro Football Prospectus which apparnetly has the data I needed I just couldn't find it, since Gregg Easterbrook cites to PFP in his article.

Ok, first, some history. The NFL scooped the 2PC in 1994 probably in large part as a result of the USFL. Praise the USFL. Success rate in the early days of the 2PC are difficult to find, but have been pegged well below 50% by sources I'm calling reliable here and here. This success rate was consequential to the 2PC for reasons stated below:

When their success rate is well shy of 50 percent, 2-point conversions produce fewer points on average than extra points, which are almost always successful. A number of commentators, including Phil Simms of CBS and a Rutgers statistics professor named Harold Sackrowitz, picked up on this fact and argued during these years that teams were too quick for try for 2.

The problem, they said, was that coaches had become dependent on a chart — created around 1970 by U.C.L.A. Coach Tommy Prothro and his offensive coordinator, Dick Vermeil — that dictated when to go for 2. Trailing by 5 points after a touchdown, for instance, a team should go for 2 to cut the lead to a field goal, according to the chart.

The chart is an interesting phenomenon considering that it was developed 24 years before the NFL adopted the 2PC in a game that was fundamentally different in Re: that rule. In College you start on the 3 yard line instead of the 2 yard line (PRO!) and a returned 2PC in CFB actually costs you points whereas the defense cannot score on a 2PC in the NFL. ALL HAIL THE MAGICAL CHART OF WONDEROUS MAGIC available here. Incredibly this little thing actually has an enormous amount of influence on coaches today. And there it is: behind by 2, go for 2, which is precisely what Jim Zorn did against New Orleans. He fudged up against the Giants, as the chart instructs you to go for 2 when down by 10. I'm going to suggest that the chart is largely meaningless, that he should've gone for two in both instances and in many instances where the chart says go for one.

So what am I going to tell you? Basically that: the 2PC is now the superior post-touchdown strategy and is and should be the norm whenever a touchdown is scored. Deviations from this strategy, ie. XP, need to be justified. This is the exact opposite of the football universe as it exists today.

Although the argument is far more multi-premised and nuanced than presented below, a short-hand of it would look something like:

Premise 1: More points is better in the NFL.

Premise 2: The odds of successfully converting a 2PC are higher than 50% and success leads to two points.

Premise 3: The odds of successfully converting an XP are between 96% and 100% and success leads to one point.

Conclusion: Teams should (generally) go for a 2PC after scoring touchdowns.

A tighter argument would include the premises where you put the numbers together, but I thought that would be best done afterwards followed by a brief personal experiment to explain how that works. Premise 2 and Premise 3 are actually interpretations of empirical data that certainly can be questioned, although some truths here: XP conversion rate cannot be above 100%. Assuming for the sake of argument that I am correct, that 2PC success rate is above 50%, say, 52%, and XP conversion rate is no higher than 98% (although the reasoning works at 100%) consider:

Each XP attempt is worth 1 x .98 = .98 points.

Each 2PC attempt is worth 1 x .52 = 1.04 points.

Supposing those numbers are correct, it's quite obvious that the 2PC strategy leads to more points than an XP strategy. Put differently, suppose you were given the choice of playing two games. In the first game, you flip a coin that turns up heads 98% of the time, and everytime it hits heads you win 98 cents a dollar. In the 2nd game you get a coin that lands heads 52% of the time and gives you a dollar and four cents two dollars everytime that happens. Given a choice of which game to play which would you take?

Rational people choose one game, irrational people choose the other game. You would select the game that maximizes the money made, and more money is made per throw on the 2nd game. Anyone who argues for the former simply isn't a logical person and should be inspected for dimentia. This isn't to say that people who go for XPs are illogical (I think they are, but that's besides the point) but an argument will have to proceed that explains why the game of football is fundamentally different than the game presented above.

And I frame it in such a way to force a conclusion towards the optimal scoring strategy for a reason, because I happen to think framing it in the football context is precisely what leads people astray in their reasoning. In the NFL the current hegemonic strategy is to kick the XP. The success rate on XPs is so high that the point after touchdowns is largely assumed as already earned after one scores. As fans we tend to think of touchdowns as worth 7 points (which they are not worth) and, just to claim guilty party status, that's precisely how I think up my tie-breaking MNF scores in Pick'Em Leagues. I don't think in terms of 8 point or 6 point touchdowns but in nicely ordered 7 point touchdowns and 3 point field goals. The overwhelming majority of touchdowns scored are improved upon with an extra point. It is helpful to think of that extra point as being "house money" given to the coaches that they are reluctant to relinquish (for a number of reasons, the most damning of which more will be said shortly).

The problem with "house money" betting is that people tend to treat problems that are not unique in unique ways when they are using it (house money). The floor belongs to Peter L. Bernstein, author of Against the Gods: The Remarkable Story of Risk which is a history of risk that I have not yet finished because, so far as books go, it is merely good. He says:

[Two researchers I'll reference shortly] found that the valuation of a risky opportunity appears to depend far more on the reference point from which the possible gain or loss will occur than on the final value of the assets that would result. It is not how rich you are that motivates your decision, but whether that decision will make you richer or poorer. As a consequence, [one of the researchers] warns, "our preferences... can be manipulated by changes in the reference points."

The two researchers are Daniel Kahneman and Amos Tversky. Their work is quoted more extensively in Against the Gods than I will quote here, though if you're interested in pursuing the scholarly works themselves, look no further then:

Kahneman, Daniel, and Amos Tversky, 1979. "Prospect Theory: An Analysis of Decision under Risk." Econometrica, Vol. 47, No.2, pp. 263-291.

Kahneman, Daniel, and Amos Tversky, 1984. "Choices, Values, and Frames." American Psychologist, Vol. 39, No. 4 (April), pp. 342-347.

More floor ceding to Bernstein, discussing their work:

Where significant sums are involved, most people will reject a fair gamble in favor of a certain gain---$100,000 certain is preferable to a 50-50 possibility of $200,000 or nothing. We are risk-averse, in other words.

But what about losses? Kahneman and Tversky's first paper on Prospect Theory, which appeared in 1979, describes an experiment showing that our choices between negative outcomes are mirror images of our choices between positive outcomes. In one of their experiments they first asked the subjects to choose between an 80% chance of winning $4,000 and a 20% chance of winning nothing versus a 100% chance of receiving $3,000. Even though the risky choice has a higher mathematical expectation --$3,200--80% of the subjects chose the $3,000 certain. These people were risk-averse...

And illogical, says me. Continuing:

Then Kahneman and Tversky offered a choice between taking the risk of an 80% chance of losing $4,000 and a 20% chance of breaking even versus a 100% chance of losing $3,000. Now 92% of the respondents chose the gamble, even though its mathematical expectation of a loss of $3,200 was once again larger than the certain loss of $3,000. When the choice involves losses, we are risk-seekers, not risk-averse.

Similar results are found over a wide variety of experiments involving either weak strategies beating out strong strategies or identical strategies resulting in disparate conclusions based on the manner in which the issue is framed (as loss vs. gain, for instance). As Bernstein puts it:

This behavior, although understandable, is inconsistent with the assumptions of rational behavior. The answer to a question should be the same regardless of the setting in which it is posed.

One more experiment just for fun, presented by Bernstein from Richard Thaler:

...Thaler has described an experiment that uses starting wealth to illustrate Tversky's warning [cited above]. Thaler proposed to a class of students that they had just won $30 and were now offered the following choice: a coin flip where the individual wins $9 on heads and loses $9 on tails versus no coin flip. Seventy percent of the subjects selected the coin flip. Thaler offered his next class the following options: starting wealth of zero and then a coin flip where the individual wins $39 on heads and wins $21 on tails versus $30 for certain. Only 43 percent selected the coin flip.

And finally, here comes "house money":

Thaler describes this result as the "house money" effect. Although the choice of payoffs offered to both classes is identical---regardless of the amount of the starting wealth, the individual will end up with either $39 or $21 versus $30 for sure---people who start out with money in their pockets will choose the gamble, while people who start out with empty pockets will reject the gamble.

Coaches have empty pockets after a touchdown, they start with zero points. They are then presented with the proposition of taking 1 point for certain (or assumed certain) or gambling for 0 or 2 points. Perhaps coaches would act differently if, instead, after a touchdown they were simply given 7 points and then extended the option of gambling on a 2PC where failure actually lost them 1 point and success gained them a point.

In any event, while it is natural for coaches to choose the way they do based on the evidence above, they are hardly saved. As Bernstein pointed out, this "is inconsistent with the assumptions of rational behavior." Thaler's students don't make millions a year and will hardly be blamed for lacking rational behavior. Coaches, on the other hand, should be held to that standard.

More damning than the realization that framing influences the manner in which people, coaches make decisions is the fact that this isn't an either-or proposition. This is not a case of coaches being handed a 50-50 chance to get 2 points or a 100% chance to get 1 point. Rather the likelihood of a successful XP is actually below absolute certainty and, at least per the data I'm calling relevant, the likelihood of a 2PC is higher than 50%. This wasn't always true, as stated above. Here's the data from Easterbrook:

The invaluable Pro Football Prospectus reports that since 2003, deuce attempts have succeeded about 55 percent of the time, which sounds better than trotting on to overtime.

He went to the PFP, I went to its author, Aaron Schatz, who told me:

> 2003    47%    62
> 2004    50%    74
> 2005    54%    50
> 2006    60%    35
> 2007    53%    57
>
> Overall: 52% success over last five years.

That is, ostensibly, year success rate% attempts.

Speculate on the reasons for this, but here's one explanation:

..the success rate has not risen because coaches are pickier about which defenses they test. Teams were just as likely to go for 2 against a good defense this season as a bad one, according to Football Outsiders, an analytical Web site.

Instead, more creative play-calling, including more passes, seems to be the main reason that teams are again succeeding more than half the time. "Offenses have become more sophisticated and more unique with what they do in that situation," Vermeil, who coached the Rams and the Chiefs over the last decade, said. "More time is devoted to it."

I suppose my data set is subject to debate. My justification for this limited set of the past five years vs. the less friendly overall data since 1994 is that I simply don't think the year 1997 has much interesting to tell us about the likelihood that any given offense will succeed on a 2PC against any given defense in the 2008 season. Since coaches only make decisions in the present, the more recent the data, the better. Hundreds of 2PC attempts is a substantial enough data set for me to conclude:

Right now the average success rate of a 2PC exceeds 50%

From that alone I'm happy concluding that 2PC is the optimal post-touchdown strategy to that of the XP because it nets more points. The way to win football games is to score more points than your opponent. After every touchdown you are given an opportunity to increase your score by either .98 points on average or 1.04 points on average. The smart coach will choose the former except under extenuating circumstances.

What might those circumstances be? I'm an admittedly hyberbolic person and would happily tell you that there are no circumstances whatsoever in which an XP is superior to a 2PC. That would not do credit to the argument, though, as there are obviously situations where that isn't the case. 4th quarter, 0 seconds on clock, XP wins the game, you should take the XP. That's a no-brainer. 4th quarter, 1:00 remaining on the clock, you are up 3, you should take the XP.

Those are about the only two situations I can think of that would necessarily demand an XP. And the reason is simple: Major Premise 1 from above, that scoring more points is better in the NFL, ceases to operate in those circumstances. And this is because under the two scenarios above, the point differential between an XP and 2PC is result neutral whereas the point differential between an XP and a failed 2PC is not. The former is simple; you will win whether you have two more points or one more point than your opponent. If the score is tied and there is no time remaining, you should win the game with the more likely XP.

Regarding the latter, with a minute remaining in the 4th quarter and you having just scored to take the lead by three, it could reasonably be concluded that one meaningful possession remains and it belongs to the bad guy. You will either take the lead by 4 with an XP, take the lead by 5 with a 2PC, or remain stat at 3 with a failed 2PC. On the following drive your opponent will score zero or three or six or seven or eight points. That represents the entire world of possible scores your opponent has on his (presumptively) final drive. And where he will score zero or three or six or seven or eight points, your four or else five point lead is result-neutral. Which is to say, in all those instances where five is enough points to win the game (opponent scores zero or three, which he wouldn't do, since coaches don't kick field goals just to lose by less) so is four. In all those instances where four is not enough to win the game (he scores six, seven, or eight points) well, shoot, neither is five. But where your four points wins a game against a field goal and essentially forces him to score, your three points after a failed 2PC is not result-neutral; it leads to overtime should he kick it through the uprights.

People are free to introduce their own scenarios in the comments section. I can imagine a strategy that says: down by 3 late in the 4th quarter you should take the XP because then you can win with a FG on your next drive. That's not my strategy. My problem with that is the farther away from endgame that one gets (ie., on my next drive presumes enough time to get another drive) the less capable one is of predicting with any credible accuracy the manner in which the game will sort itself out. Time matters but only in a very limited sense; if you're choosing to kick an XP over a 2PC at any point prior to the 4th quarter you are acting in error. You have presumed to know the amount of and manner in which the remaining possessions will play out.

Anyways, have at these iterations all you want, the point is just that: the XP is the one that has some 'splainin' to do and not the other way around. The optimal strategy, generally speaking, is the one that produces the most points, except under those circumstances where increased points are irrelevant or result-neutral. Touchdowns in the 1st through 3rd quarter should always be followed by a 2PC attempt.

Yikes, time to back off once more. If the league averages over the past five years are either 52% (and growing!) or 55%, that means some teams in the league are getting 2PC less often than 50%. As much as I take it as personal mantra that one should almost always go for 2PC, there are some teams where that isn't true. Really bad offenses, for example. Or teams that are playing against really good defenses. But in those situations where a coach has determined that his odds of a successful 2PC are higher than 50% -- even 50.0000001% -- he's simply irrational for avoiding it in the vast majority of circumstances that present. And this should tell us that a lot of coaches on a lot of teams (good offensive ones) in a lot of situations (against very bad defenses) have simply screwed the pooch by sending out the XP unit. And if 32 coaches have collectively concluded that the general odds of success on a 2PC are less than 50%, well, they aren't apparently interested in the available data.

The truly disturbing aspect of all this is that everyone knows what the deal is, we are all aware of the reason why coaches routinely choose the XP over the 2PC and it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the relative merits of those strategies as relates to winning. As Gregg Easterbrook points out:

Shanahan's decision was "bold" mainly in the sense that if the gamble failed, sports pundits would now be bashing, bashing, bashing him. Whereas if he ordered a kick and the Broncos lost in overtime, the players would be blamed. Coaches act like cowards mainly to avoid criticism -- how wonderful to see Shanahan not caring about that.

David Leonhardt of the New York Times:

Today, the biggest reason an N.F.L. coach might shy away from doing what Petersen did, Vermeil said, is "fear of failing." If a coach ended his team’s season by failing on a conversion, he would face a torrent of abuse, even if he had given his team its best shot at winning.

And this is tacitly acknowledged in broadcast booths when they feel the need to justify a 2PC or explicitly come out and wonder or speculate how much criticism the coach would get if they fail. If I'm the owner of a football team and I employ a person to perform the exclusive task of winning football games, I want them concerned with exactly and only the goal of winning football games and not about whether or not they will face media criticism following a loss.

And we all know this is why coaches routinely make cowardly, illogical decisions, and no one seems the least bit surprised or amazed or baffled or finds this bats!

Many smart people are complicit, including most of these coaches. I had this same discussion with an Ivy Leaguer friend of mine just last night, and he's much, much smarter than I am. His reaction was: C'mon Skin Patrol, do you really think you're the first person to think of this? Do you really think NFL coaches and owners aren't aware of the statistics? Obviously you're wrong, because everyone else does it the exact opposite of what you are advocating.

And you know what, that's kind of compelling. Who and how am I to question the collective wisdom of everyone in the NFL business? Well, I'm someone who understands that the expectation of rational behavior in human beings is largely a myth, that the mere framing of a decision influences the outcome, and that whatever the fuck the NFL thinks is the right thing to do, it can't be because Dick Vermeil made a chart 38 years ago with Xs on it. If I can't convince reader(s) that the 2PC is the right starting strategy deviated from only under justification, at least let me convince you that Phil Simms was right about one thing: whether you should kick an XP or go for a 2PC has everything to do with the actual likelihood of success, and not some chart. If a 2PC is always successful, there would be no reason whatsoever to kick XPs. If an XP is never successful, there's no reason to try it. And at some point, if and when 2PC rates increase above 55, 60, 65% success, the world-is-flat-cuz-we-all-agree mantra will cease to be reasonable in spite of the collective wisdom verbalized weekly by what many agree are the least critical thinking people on the planet, NFL Broadcasters (minus John Madden, he just rules). If I'm wrong -- I'm not -- it ain't because I don't have the right chart and it ain't because I'm so different.

In closing, imagine you're one of these two guys.

03_medium

via www.rob-clarkson.com

You visit earth to watch your first football game having just read the NFL rule book and made yourself aware of the past five years of statistics on the 2PC vs. that of the XP. It is the first quarter. Last year's New England Patriots, one of the greatest offensive teams in the history of the league, against the Detroit Lions (I don't know if they played last year, but bare with me), the worst defense in the league by some measures last year. And then something very strange happens: Out comes the Patriots' kicker to attempt the XP. But that's not even the craziest thing about what is happening on the field, which is the Patriots' coach, who is alleged to be some kind of cheating but brilliant genius, just sacrificed some amount more than 1 point for some amount less than 1 point in a trade-off that has no rational justification.

No, what's absolutely mind-boggling about it is that as you watch no one in the stands, no one in the broadcast booth, no one on the entire planet seems the least bit surprised by this decision. Millions upon millions of allegedly logical people all acquiesce in this flagrantly irrational decision in unison, without so much as a murmur that something amiss has just happened in the brain-unit of the Patriots' head coach. Satisfied that things can only go down from here, you change the channel to soccer before fleeing the atmosphere in your space ship. This planet is filled with crazy people, and they are not to be trifled with.

5 recs  |  Comment 24 comments |

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I get the impression that

the two point issue has been building for awhile; Another way of looking at the broncos/SD situation was what the value of going for two was. That value had to be measured against the possibility that the broncos would get the coin toss in OT (or stuff SD’s D), and then drive 50 ish yards to grab a field goal vs. the value of one play that needs to go two yards. What are your odds of making it from the two? Apparently better than fifty. If you feel like your the odds are better than 50% (say 53%) that your team can stuff the other (assuming you loose the toss), and then get into a “sure shot” field goal range, then going for two would be unwise. When its written out like opting for the PAT doesn’t really seem so bright, unless your D is kicking ass and your O is running smoothly.

Another aspect of the 2PC is the concept of momentum. Not all 4th and 2 situations are the same. If you’ve got some momentum on your side and are passing effectively and running downhill, 4th and 2 isn’t such a difficult situation. If you’re sputtering and the other team knows you are going to run and is crowding the line, 4th and 2 isn’t such a bright spot. Put in the context of your post, a team’s momentum dictates what relationship it has to the 4th and 2 situation.

If teams do begin to go for 2PC’s early, the whole field of our status quo would change. If you’re down by 8 in the first quarter, and you get a TD, it would be unwise to go for a PAT, as you’d still be down and would have violated the theory that more points is better. This leads to another situational analysis, which is measuring the benefit of successfully going for 2 early on in the game vs. failing. If your on top, the other team has to go for two in order to catch up, and even conservative playcallers will try to go for it more often than not. For teams that are outmatched, 52% conversion success is probably too high, and forcing them to go for 2 points would be wise in terms of percentages and odds. Mostly though, if your up by one you control the clock, whereas a tie leaves the clock on neutral ground.

It’ll be interesting to see if Denver’s moxy is reproduced, and whether those effects are positive.

TTB!

by Ach on Sep 16, 2008 6:46 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Couple things...

1) The strategy that one should go for two is always best made when contrasted against overtime. The largest indicator on which team is going to win in overtime is the coin flip, which is a 50/50 chance. Whenever a team goes for the one to tie it, they’re essentially sacrificing a (potential) better than 50/50 opportunity just to get a 50/50 opportunity, which is insane. When I first presented this to a friend, I was trying to imagine situations where I’d take the XP. I was thinking that, down by 4 with (reasonably) one remaining offensive posession, perhaps I should take the XP. But anyone who is playing towards a tie, and utilizing their post touchdown strategy towards that end, is nuts. Down 4 you should go for 2 so you can potentially win the game with a FG.

2) Momentum is just part of it. Whenever you have a 2PC you always have momentum, because you just scored. Something else to consider: Teams that go for 2PC instead of XP will increase the amount of defensive snaps the opposing team has to play.

3) My theory is that Denver’s moxy will not be reproduced. At the time, some years ago, everyone was talking about Dom Capers going for two in a similar situation and getting it. Zippity doo da and no one remembers he did that, and here we are talking about Shanahan like it’s the first time. Coaches won’t swithc, they’re too embedded in their thinking.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 16, 2008 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

One thing that your theory ignores...

is the unquantifiable damage a failed attempt does to the team (or, more specifically, the players.) The announcer in the Skins-Saints game (Brian whatshisname) mentioned that the failed 2 point conversion takes away all the energy that a team gains when scoring the previous TD.

A blocked or botched XPA doesn’t seem to have the same effect on the players psyche, mostly (to me, at least) because any time a “certainty” like an XP fails, the players can chalk it up to “bad luck” or some other undefinable force working against them, as opposed to a failed 2 point try, which is a gamble in and of itself. Even if it has a 50, 55, 60% success rate, it is a far cry from a 96+% success like the XP is.

You premise also doesn’t take into account how XPs could actually result in more points. By that, I mean you can flip a coin (assuming something close to a 50% success rate for 2 point conversions) and get all heads or all tails for 3, 4, 5 times in a row. Over a long enough time span, the 52% success rate will show up, but in a shorter span (like, say, 1 NFL game) it might not. 2 made XPs could make the difference between winning and losing in the ever-increasing parity (and resulting close games) that is the NFL.

Just something to consider.

Yes, I am a nerd.

by TexSkins on Sep 16, 2008 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re:

Regarding the more esoteric arguments for or against the strategy, I think the main problem is that they can go back and forth forever. When we’re discussing concepts like “energy” that aren’t really quantifiable, there’s no telling how they will affect the team. While it’s possible that a failed 2PC has a more damaging psychological effect on players than does a failed XP, there’s a psychological effect on telling your team that you will go for two every time as well. Gregg Easterbrook (right or wrong) referenced Mike Shanahan telling the players he was going for the win if they scored, and they allegedly took to that.

Good players always want to be on the field on 4th down. Nobody likes leaving the field. Likewise, nobody likes settling for one point where two are available.

Whatever emotional effect failure to convert a 2PC has on the offense, does that mean a successful 2PC has an equal emotional impact on the failed defense? If 2PCs are successful more often than not, doesn’t that yield a net emotional gain for offenses that attempt it?

What about, stated elsewhere, the actual impact of defenses having to put their starters on the field more? It is taken as given that offensive players expend less energy than do defensive players on any given play because the offense knows where it is going. So the more often you line up against the defense, the more tired they get. A 2PC strategy puts the defense on the field more often.

I think the strategy absolutely does and must take into account that an XP strategy does not have to suffer random noise and a 2PC strategy does. But random noise is what an NFL game is all about; everytime a team punts or kicks a field goal they are leaving points on the field. Likewise, rather than view XP as consistent, consider that everytime you kick one you’re leaving a point on the field. Teams lose and win by the same margin, generally, over a long enough timespan.

In order of most likely to least likely, after scoring 3 touchdowns in a game a team will have 4 points more than 2 points more than 6 points more than 0 points as a result of post-touchdown strategy under the 2PC. The likeliest “swing” is one point either way, though you’re more likely to get 4 than 2 points. The next most likely “swing” is 6 points. The least likely “swing” is 0 points.

If the 52% or whatever % fails to reveal itself after one game, that’s no big deal. A coach shouldn’t be worried about the individual swings in a game on a 2PC strategy anymore than he should be worried that sometimes a 60% field goal will miss 5 times in a row. You adopt the strategy that you think will yield the most points. If you think a 60% field goal is your best bet on 4th and 10, it’s your best bet even if the swings can be bad. If a coach is serious about getting more points, then the swings are something they should happily accept, since they accompany more points.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 16, 2008 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

My point as well

52% while slightly more likely to occur statistically a team could go for a complete year without a conversion, how many points are being given up to take a known risk but a risk none the less.
Take the one…

by dr WNC on Sep 16, 2008 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think the risk

is kicking the extra point. I think that’s part of the issue with the Kahneman and Tversky studies. What they are trying to show is that people don’t logically evaluate “risk” in precisely the way we’re describing it here. We are talking about how a 2PC strategy is the riskier because it involves swings. But risk is really nothing more than what one puts on the line to gain something of value, and what’s apparent is that people who kick XPs where their 2PC rate is above 50% are taking on more risks than the other way around. XPs, strangely, actually don’t have “risk” in the sense you aren’t “risking” anything to gain… because they yield less than the points promised! You are sacrificing an opportunity to get 1.04 points so that you can have the opportunity to get .98 points. XPs return LESS than the point promised.

2 point conversions involve the risk of not taking the XP, but the return is worth more than the maximum return on even 100% successful XPs.

What it basically comes down to is that coaches have an opportunity to play with a coin weighted in their favor or one weighted against them… and they routinely and systematically choose the one weighted against them.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 16, 2008 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I get it but...

The hypothesis using “people are risk-averse” explains it. While logically your thesis is correct, people are by and far illogical and risk-aversed, nature cannot be changed
Highly recommended and buzzup!
A great argument, a great reaaaaaaaaaaad but flawed by trying to make people logical.

by dr WNC on Sep 16, 2008 6:57 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Illogical people

illustrated in the way coaches approach these kinds of problems. So many coaches have merely resigned themselves to a chart that, in so far as I can tell, takes into account actual s of success not one bit. Whether a 2PC or XP strategy works has to do with your specific team and the odds that you will successfully convert, and yet that doesn’t seem to be taken into account, ever. It apparently took coaches a long time to figure that out in the early part of the 2PC era, as Phil Simms had to correct people. Because the 2PC is such a minority position, I do not think that coaches will ever amend their thinking towards a 2PC strategy despite growing evidence that it’s better suited towards generating points. I suspect we’ll be 5 years down the road and, even if we’re at 55+ 2PC rate then, no one will listen.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 16, 2008 7:17 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Illogical but logical...

The chart takes as you speak takes starts with the idea that 1pt is 100, which again highlights the illogical thought becasue the XP is not 100
As it was meant to be used, it should only be used in the last minutes of a close game in the 4th qtr, often at an attempt to achieve a 50/50 coin flip decision, which again highlights the illogical thinking of people.
Sane and reasonable thought which leads to logical decisions just will not be accepted in this illogical world…

by dr WNC on Sep 16, 2008 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re:
Sane and reasonable thought which leads to logical decisions just will not be accepted in this illogical world…

While I agree, that’s apparent, I just think it’s unfortunate. It raises the question of WHY it has to be like that, as there is nothing preventing coaches from altering their strategies.

We don’t have to be irrational or illogical, especially when confronted with opportunities to avoid same.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 16, 2008 8:04 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

What a fabulous post

that, yes, I did indeed read the whole thing (even though it could have used a ’jump’).

I think you are overworking yourself here though. The best argument is a concise, biting argument that hits the reader with the most important factual information and is laid out in a way that is easiest for them to wrap their mind around and understand.

You wrote a dissertation on the psychological effects of man’s resistance to taking a greater risk for greater reward. Kudos to you for breaking it down to the molecular level but I’m sure some of it will get lost in the wash.

by Hardcore Legend on Sep 17, 2008 1:17 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Another take

Not gonna bs its late and I didnt read everything so if this was said sue me.

I think the biggest benefit of going for 2 over everything is not the extra points converted but the amount of extra goaline practice teams would get, basing it off of our 5 field goals against the saints I would say goalline and redzone practice would really benefit us. That said if going for 2 became a norm I think teams that did this would also increase in the redzone and goal line success. Offenses would benefit alot from this, the downside is if it were adopted by most teams then I think defenses would get even better at redzone and goalline play, that said I doubt many teams would so if only a few teams or just one did it, they would be creating an advantage on offense for themselves.

If you average 2 to 3 tds a game thats an extra 2 to 3 snaps of actualy game time to get better near the goaline, this would really benefit teams struggling in this area or teams that just want to get better.

The only other downside I can see from this would be injuries, going for 2 with your star players out there every time and majory injuries happening could really have people calling for the Headcoach’s head and players wondering why coachs are taking such a risk. Its not like a 2 pt conversion is a advertised stat nor are the yards or catches or anything along those lines as far as I know among normal player stats, why would players want to risk injury for plays that wont even reflect the stat or at times not seemingly matter since the game is not on the line?

by Voo on Sep 17, 2008 4:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Also

To get a real world perspective of actual conversion of a 2point conversion would be to tally the success rate of plays from the 2 yard line that turn into touchdowns. I understand sometimes different players and packages will be used and many other variables are to be factored in but i still think its at least a feasible way of guestimating an average 2 point conversion rate.

by Voo on Sep 17, 2008 4:20 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Lastly

2 point conversions are the same way to gain an extra as just as much to lose an extra point, remember this game isnt about just getting as many points as possible, if it was teams wouldnt run the ball to run the clock down in hopes of keeping the league. If its the beginning of the 4th quarter and you are tied 10-10 and score a touchdown its not about points, its about playing to hold your lead or in the immediate future hold a tie, at 50% chance of getting 2 points is it worth it to not succeed and only be up by 6?

This isnt a game about scoring alot of points, its not a video game. It is about scoring enough to win. Offenses play just as much to score points as they do to help out the defense, defense is a totally seperate issue to be factored in. If your defense is terrible and you score a td to go up would you still consider the 2 points?

With the average game between 2 and 3 tds worth of points is really an extra 2 or 3 points worth it? We tend to forget its also a chance of -2 or -3 points as well, the extra is guarenteed to most extents, in the average game where the biggest benefit you could see if you nailed all the extra points is the difference of a field is it really worth the risk?

I think if anything a great idea would to be to adopt some type of hybrid fieldgoal/2 point offense. Actually I have no clue if you decide to go for a PAT does that mean you have too? Are you allowed to fake a pat and go for 2? If you are not i think the rule should be changed to where extra point chance is fairgame and if you wanna line up for a kick with your qb holding the snap and try to throw for 2 you can. Hybrid PAT offenses would be fun and new as well as make defenses actually try to block PATs more. Guys kicking PATs with the ability to throw the ball or run, having 2 WRs spread out, many possibilities. I know i’m now off topic but its 4:30 in the morning so whatever. Alright im done ranting, night.

by Voo on Sep 17, 2008 4:37 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

You can fake a PAT and go for 2.

At least in Madden you can, but I’m almost positive you can in real life too.

You can even act like you’re going to go for 2 and then drop kick it. But there’s no justification for that at all, besides the fact that no one does it anymore, and no coach would be vain enough to try it for such a flimsy reason. Oh wait.

by Aldo on Sep 18, 2008 1:17 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I can't believe

no one caught a glaring error in my hypo. Fixed.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 17, 2008 2:31 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Inexcusible is a bit harsh

Even Easterbook subscribes to the whole kick early, go for it late idea. The main reason why Zorn’s strategy isn’t “inexcusable” is that the strategy of going for 2 isn’t an accepted practice. So his decision isn’t overall negative, it’s merely part of the status quo and is overall even. If everyone is doing something, that establishes an equibilbrium for the decision and Zorn’s choices should be measured against that equilibrium.

But going one step further, more inexcusible on a statistical basis than the decision to go for 1 or 2 points, is the decision of every NFL coach of punting on all but the longest of 4th downs. Easterbrook and Football outsiders (I think) had articles that if teams went for it on 4th down every time that the added benefit of extending possessions and scoring would more than make up for any times they failed to convert.

But of course that would be even more risky.

by jkk808 on Sep 17, 2008 8:44 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Re:
Even Easterbook subscribes to the whole kick early, go for it late idea.

That doesn’t make it the right strategy. My criticism of Easterbrook’s strategy is that he’s got it backwards! The ONLY instances where it makes sense to kick XPs is when you have some reasonably made conclusions about the amount of drives you and your opponent have remaining. That’s not the case in the 1st through 3rd quarters or, put differently, that’s not the case “early.” In other words, my position is that you should go for 2PC “early” everytime, and then go for it late too except in a few select circumstances.

The main reason why Zorn’s strategy isn’t "inexcusable" is that the strategy of going for 2 isn’t an accepted practice.

I’m picking on Coach Zorn because he’s my head coach. It’s “inexcusable” for every coach to adopt a strategy that, when placed against a different strategy, loses a majority of games. We can run permutations of an XP strategy that is 98% effective vs. a 2PC strategy that is 52% effective, and the latter strategy will win a majority of games. Any coach that adopts the weaker of two strategies really is doing something inexcusable because they’re taking a huge risk without a rational basis for doing so.

So his decision isn’t overall negative, it’s merely part of the status quo and is overall even.

But it is overall negative, it merely isn’t exposed because no one else has figured out how to break it. I see what you’re saying — because every other coach chooses an XP strategy, it’s essentially a wash. The problem is that ISN’T TRUE. His failure to change strategies is LOSING THE REDSKINS FOOTBALL GAMES. The “why rock the boat” approach fails to account for why Coach Zorn would willingly sacrifice games that we would otherwise win if he simply changed strategies. I think that speaks to the very heart of the problem outlined above, namely, that we are incapable of thinking about this in the right kind of way. If you choose the worse of two strategies, than you’re accepting the results as well. And the results are: Coach Zorn will lose football games he would otherwise win if he simply went for 2 more often, and those games happen to statistically outnumber the ones he will lose by going for 2. Remember to always view the 2PC strategy in context of being VS. the XP strategy.

If everyone is doing something, that establishes an equibilbrium for the decision and Zorn’s choices should be measured against that equilibrium.

Again, I disagree. If everyone is doing something wrong, that establishes an opportunity to exploit the league. Supposing the accepted practice in the league by all 32 teams were, after touchdowns, to kneel the ball, then it wouldn’t excuse any coach who played copycat. The guy who kicked XPs would have a relative advantage to the other 31 teams. And I hate the language of “equilibrium” because it suggests that Zorn’s decision is essentially result-neutral; it isn’t! He’s losing more games than he would win if he changed strategies simply by mimicking the rest of the NFL. Why would we want our head coach to do that?

Re: Punting I couldn’t agree more. I think that applies also to FGs. Consider the 4th and goal from the 2 yard line situation which is, essentially, a 2PC. I’m going to assume that success rates are similar since it’s the identical down and distance. It’s even MORE irrational to kick a FG in that situation than it is to go for the XP, because while the 2PC is only worth twice an XP, a touchdown is worth either just under 4 points more than a FG (if you go for XP = 6.98) or slightly more than 4 points (if you go for 2PC = 7.04). IE: Touchdowns on 4th and 2 are worth over twice as much as FGs. If you convert 52% of the plays from 4th and goal on the 2 yard line, you’re really batty if you kick a FG.

If you’re interested in the mathematical justifcation for avoiding punts and field goals, read this.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 18, 2008 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

best

post i’ve read on this site. great work. i 1000% agree with u. and same thing on punts too.

people can change their mindset to take advantage of this inefficiency. But it would most likely have to be an organizational change. For instance if I was an owner or GM I would mandate that my coach adopts these beneficial strategies. No coach right now is gonna do this on a consistent basis because of the fear of backlash that you mentioned. Read moneyball, and look at how Billy Beane changed the A’s organizational mindset. He saw the inefficiencies that the conventional wisdom created and he took advantage of it. Some people have caught on, some haven’t.

Momentum and psychological disadvantage of failing on the 2pt is more a fan and media overreaction. If the coach can teach his players the benefits of this strategy he can minimize the psychological damage of missing a few a 2pt conversions because in the long run it is the right strategy.

I wouldn’t say that 2pt conversions will necessarily win you more games ALL the time, but it will get you more points in the long run, which would help you win more. But there’s other factors involved, such as the defense, which you did mention.

And I agree with you skin patrol, that it’s completely false to say that it’s a bad decision to go for 2 just cause of other coaches don’t do it and that’s the status quo. That’s the whole point! The status quo is wrong, and it usually is. That’s how smart people take advantage of dumb people. You can see it in all aspects of life: baseball and billy beane, investments and john henry and warren buffett, and hopefully football and jim zorn.

I’ve been thinking about this topic, and I’m so glad you took the time to write this great post. Not sure what the buzz thing does but i’ll click it.

by DC Pain on Sep 18, 2008 10:32 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Love your analysis, but may have some holes...an alternative proposed

Skin Patrol -

I love the depth of your analysis. Seems like you could probably write a dissertation on the subject, but let’s see how that would manifest using some real numbers. In 2007, the Washington Redskins finished 9-7 and made the playoffs. During that season they scored a total of 34 touchdowns. If they had only kicked PAT’s throughout the entire season, they would have ended up with approximately 33 extra points. If they had instead gone for two every single time they scored a touchdown, using the statistical success rate of above of 2PC’s, they would have scored at total of 35 extra points, or two extra points over the course of an entire season by going for two instead of kicking! Hardly a sexy amount of points we’re talking here, and hardly compelling enough for most coaches to open themselves up to ridicule for opting against taking easy points with the PAT.

In addition, these statistics don’t reflect game-to-game situations. In other words, even though going for two might net an additional two points over the course of the season, success in the NFL isn’t measured by a team’s season point total. Instead it is measured by the point total in each game, so having to settle for only six points per touchdown half the time may result in additional losses over the course of the season.

So what’s my point?

My point is that this whole conversation should be moot, and I’ll explain that by asking a question: why is it that NFL teams have at least two skilled kickers on their roster? Why is it that of the 53 valuable slots available to field a competitive football club, teams fill up two of these slots with people who are not even football players?! That’s right, I’m talking about that fact that teams field kickers and punters. Why is it that one guy can’t do both jobs? Sure, you might tell me that there are many nuances to each skill, that one requires strength and speed and the other requires accuracy and uh, quickness. Whatever. I don’t care. Something tells me that if you pay a gentleman $500,000 per year to kick and punt that somehow he’ll manage.

And the teams will manage too. Perhaps they will send in the punting team less often on fourth and short, knowing that their kicker is really only good at nailing field goals and isn’t terribly accurate when it comes to downing punts within the opponents’ 10 yard line. The fact remains is that these individuals aren’t football players at all, they are merely skilled specialists who enter the field of play from time to time, praying that they don’t get hit.

So in essence, my proposal is this: allow only one punter/kicker per team. They will be called on only to kick field goals and punts, not extra points. When a team scores a touchdown, the touchdown-scoring player is responsible for attempting the extra point kick. Alternatively, the team can opt to go for two if they know their guy can’t kick. This rule change would make the games much more fluid, uncertain, and dynamic, resulting in a new level of excitement, as nearly every touchdown would come with it an opportunity to score a "touchdown" again. It would also result in a new level of sophistication when it comes to play calling, clock management, game strategy, and play design, as coaches would be forced to come up with new and different schemes to score in goalline situations.

An alternative would be for teams to retain kickers and punters, but force them to really earn their pay as skilled technicians in the following way: when teams score touchdowns, the kicker must line up to kick the field goal from the spot on the field where the touchdown-scoring player entered the endzone. In other words, if the player entered the endzone from the center of the field, the kicker would get to kick basically straight on. However, if the player entered the endzone by way of the corner pylons, the kicker would have to line up just inside the sideline to score his measly one point. That might make coaches open things up and go for two a little more often, wouldn’t it?

You can read more about this in my blog post on the subject here.

by Pavler on Sep 21, 2008 7:19 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Various responses:

1) To the “it’s really inconsequential” point given that it only results in one extra point per year, if it really is inconsequential, then coaches have no good reason NOT to go for two. It is not my position that 2PC are inconsequential; I think they are incredibly consequential, as the mere act of going for 2PC can increase your odds of winning under some circumstances by as much as 2. Coaches that choose a 48 or 50 chance of winning over a 52% chance of winning are the ones that need to explain themselves.

2) Which brings me to my second response: The issue is and continues to be about framing. Consider:

Hardly a sexy amount of points we’re talking here, and hardly compelling enough for most coaches to open themselves up to ridicule for opting against taking easy points with the PAT.

Why should selecting the optimal scoring strategy open up coaches to ridicule? If this were an economic model, or if this were instead a business being run, the exact opposite would be true; coaches that selected a strategy that decreased their odds of winning (even if by only a marginal amount) should be subject to criticism. If this were a just and rational world, we’d turn on SportsCenter everyday and the talking heads would flap about how stupid coach went for an XP on the first touchdown of the drive in spite of the statistical evidence obviating the exact opposite. But we don’t, because the institution of football is incredibly conservative. How about that forward pass?

3) There are certainly some situations where the 2PC is not the best strategy, but in most situations that simply isn’t the case. It wouldn’t ever be the case in the 1st quarter, for instance, where strategy should revolve exclusively around maximizing points.

I’m not opposed to your rule change idea, but I’m far more focused on what coaches should do in virtue of the current rule structure as opposed to what the rule structure should be, since any individual coach can have an impact on the former but not the latter on any given sunday. When Jim Zorn wakes up tomorrow, he can go for 2PC on his next touchdown. When he wakes up tomorrow, the rules will still permit him a kicker and a punter on the roster.

Final response:

Instead it is measured by the point total in each game, so having to settle for only six points per touchdown half the time may result in additional losses over the course of the season.

I never doubted this. Consider two identical teams play each other 100 times, where team A utilizes an XP strategy and team B utilizes a 2PC strategy. Both teams score exactly one touchdown.

If the % success rate for 2PC is 52%, then team B will win 52 of the games and team A will win 48 of them (team A will always win when team B fails an attempt, team B will always win on a successful completion). The simulation should tell you, first and foremost, and I admit this readily, that adopting a 2PC strategy will result in games lost. You will lose games BECAUSE of a 2PC strategy. But the problem is people analyze the situation without taking into account how many games the XP strategy has lost BECAUSE of that strategy. You will lose 48 games that you would have otherwise tied under the above strategy if you opt to go for two as opposed to one. You will lose 52 games you would otherwise have had a chance in if you opt to go for the XP, though. All things equal, one team is better off than the other.

Go register. Or else.

by Skin Patrol on Sep 22, 2008 7:03 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

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