The Case for Brett Favre and the Washington Redskins
[Note by Skin Patrol, 07/14/08 8:16 PM EDT ]
Readers are once again encouraged to check out Ben's Redskins Blog, The Curly R, on a daily basis. There is a reason it sits at the top of my Blogroll. Many thanks many times over to Ben for helping tend shop in my absence.
Which Brett Favre is still in there?
Brett Favre is coming out of a four month retirement and wants his unconditional release from Green Bay. They do not want to give it to him. Should be interesting.
Via Will at Hogs Haven a week ago a press release from an offshore casino appeared on a free PR site betting that Brett would not land with the Minnesota Vikings but rather with the Washington Redskins.
I think this could work.
Though I may be in the minority. This post at Hogs Haven by mmford10 was up twelve hours after the news and, the comments trended against the idea early and then the thread became about Jason Campbell, not Brett Favre. That was totally predictable.
For the Redskins this could be an historic opportunity. It may play some havoc with the team yes, that is nothing new for Redskins fans. Disruption has been the norm under Dan Snyder, the difference, now before us is a disruption that could be good for the team now and later. Here is my argument:
1. It's Brett Favre. A sure fire first ballot Hall of Famer. No one ever thought he would be available. Now that he is, you talk to him. Just to see what he is looking for. It's Brett freaking Favre. We all know he can still play.
2. The new Redskins offense. What Brett ran in Green Bay and what Jim Zorn brings to the Redskins come from the same source, Mike Holmgren. Brett would have a short learning curve and it would get the new offense humming from the start.
3. The old Redskins offense. The Redskins offense is tooled to win now, it is full of veterans, the line should be healthy back from injuries and if they can play like 2006 that would be great for the running game, west coast offense or not you still have to run the ball in the NFC Beast. Santana Moss, Antwaan Randle El, Chris Cooley and the New Guys are plenty of weapons through the air.
4. The Redskins defense. Turns out the transition from last year to this year should be pretty smooth after all. Even if they slip ten places the team will still be in the top half of the league. A good defense gives new offenses and new players breathing room.
5. It's a tradition. Brett Favre would not be the first high profile Packer to come to Washington. After the 1967 NFL season, Vince Lombardi stepped down as head coach of the Green Bay Packers and after a brief quote retirement unquote from coaching, he took the Packers' general manager position for one season in 1968 before getting restless and coming back to coaching with the Redskins. Prior to the 1969 season the Redskins had not had a winning campaign in 14 years. Under Vince they went 7-5-2, by 1971 George Allen was in place and the team went on to nine straight winning seasons.
The value proposition: it has to cost little or nothing. Ideally the Packers will release Brett after he promises not to sign with a division rival. Frankly I have a hard time seeing Brett play for the Vikings but I digress. If the team demands a trade then it should cost the Redskins not higher than a third round pick, even though it's Brett Favre the team cannot sacrifice any serious portion of the long term future for a player that will give the Redskins one, maybe two shots at the Super Bowl.
The impacts: the elephant in the room here is obviously Jason Campbell, the Redskins starting quarterback, a first round pick himself that cost the team three draft picks in trade to acquire. In the long run, bringing Brett Favre in may be good for Jason Campbell's career. Or it may begin the door closing on what was never going to work out in the first place. Follow me here.
In the first place, there is no shame in being Jason Campbell if you get benched for Brett Favre, that's not a lack of confidence in Jason, that's just taking advantage of an unbelieveable opportunity, if one of the greatest ever in your professional field were suddenly available and your company hired him and he happened to do your job, you could hardly fault the company, it just makes good business sense. Jason is a big boy, if Vinny Cerrato walks into Jason's house this week and tells him Jason will be backing up Brett Favre this year, Jason can not only take it, he may jump up and hug Vinny.
Second, Jason Campbell's position with this team in the long run is still very much open to question. Jason has shown the skills and the potential to be a franchise quarterback in the NFL, he has never lit us up and what we may still be interpreting as growing pains may simply be Jason's limitations. As Randy Cross likes to say on Sirius NFL Radio, that the guy you see early is pretty much the guy you will see always. Players can improve at the edges, rarely do we see a guy go from average to great.
This is not to say Jason is not a starting caliber quarterback. If the Redskins have a good plan they do not need the best QB to make it work. The team could well be successful within Jason's limits, I mean come on this team won Super Bowls with Mark Rypien and Joe Thiesmann, good QBs, not all time greats.
If Brett Favre were to come and wear number four (sorry Derrick Frost, with Durant Brooks and all, this could be a bad training camp experience for you) here in Washington, it would mean Jason would be the backup. It would give him a full year to get familiar with Jim Zorn's offense, I for one along with Rich Tandler and Will-A have plenty of questions as to whether Jason can be a reliable executor of this offense a) now, b) ever. From watching as much football as I have, I am not sure Jason is physically or mentally the type of QB for this type of system. Then again I did not think Steve Young would be successful after Joe Montana and did not envision Donovan McNabb as a west coast quarterback either.
In any event, a full year to learn the system without having to run it on game day might be conducive to Jason digesting the system and being better prepared when his number is called.
True, the Redskins would not get value from Jason's contract this year, which according to PC's awesome contract page, runs through 2010. Brett has a chance to come in and make a run at a title for a season or two then the team gets to decide whether they have seen enough out of Jason Campbell to merit re signing him to a long term deal as the franchise starter.
So this is not just about Brett Favre. All that money and those draft picks spent on Jason Campbell, that's all sunk cost. Jason is either going to be the team's long term solution or he is not, as commenter Allskins at Hogs Haven wrote yesterday, Patrick Ramsey was also a first round pick future of the franchise guy.
The odd man out in this scenario is Todd Collins, who though signed to a two year deal is nothing more than insurance anyway. Colt Brennan will get a look as number three, he is a Jim Zorn pick and with or without Brett Favre, Colt will be salted away to see if he can run this team. If he can, if he has the chops to be an NFL quarterback in this type of system, Jason Campbell may be out in two seasons anyway.
This team is ready to win now. The offensive line should be back, how many more seasons do they have in the tank? How about Clinton Portis? Santana Moss and Antwaan Randle El are ready to win now. Chris Cooley is in the prime of his career. There is veteran leadership on a defense peppered with young players, stewardship of the team from old to young has to start happening in the next two to three seasons. Two or three seasons I'd rather not see an offense and a QB getting up to speed, getting untracked, whatever.
Jim Zorn's offense would be friendly to Brett. Let's see what it can do now and now wait until 2010.
Compostite image by me. Brett Favre left image from here, Brett Favre right image from here.
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Point-Counter-Point
1. It’s Brett Farve:
Remember: “it’s Deion Sanders? Sean Gilbert, Jeff George, Mark Carrier, Dana Stublefield and all the others?” Selling the teams future to try to win now doesn’t work and we’re a laughing stock of the NFL because we’ve tried to do it so much. Everyone forgets Unitis finshed his carrer in San Deigo, OJ in San Fran, Dorsett in Denver, Thurman Thomas and Chris Carter in Miami. Frave previous years were crap and everyone forgets how far he just might fall.
2. The new Redskins offense
I’m no NFL head Coach but I don’t know that every WCO is the same and if it is Farve would have a short learning curve. However he’s gonna do whatever we wants anyway because he’d have a big leash and more free to force all those passes ito triple coverage like he does. Turnover central. If you’re gonna make the point about short learning curves..you know who else had the WCO system Jason Campbell.
3. The old Redskins offense
How can you title it the old redskins offense and then through in the blurb about and the New Guys are plenty of weapons through the air?. What are the best teams in the NFL? It’s the ones who build through the draft and don’t sell the farm for single players. Why are the Packers, Eagles, Pats, and others always on top? They believe in continuity which always keeps a team near the top or at least competitive.
4. The Redskins defense
You said it yourself A good defense gives new offenses and new players breathing room. So then why upset the apple cart of a team that made the playoffs last year!?
5. It’s a tradition
That whole argument is a massive stetch and doesn’t translate to today.
The value proposition
I’m not going to make any assumptions about that. Aren’t we the team that offered the farm for Chad Johnson? I have no doubts about Snyder pulling any trigger(s) for a player we wants.Also I’m not so sure the Pack want to trade him to anyone in the NFC.
Jason Campbell has played 20 games or some such and pulling the plug on that would be stupid especially if that was caused by bringing in some vet that would last a max of 2yrs. Say goodbye to maybe conteding and hello to more years rebulidinig. I say F-that!
by CptChaosSidekick on Jul 14, 2008 11:23 AM EDT 0 recs
Whoa nelly
Counter counter point
1. It’s Brett Favre. You have a point about many of the older players that have cycled through here, they are always a risk. That said, the value proposition here is not to sell the farm to bring Brett in. If he is released then it costs the team nothing. In trade I would not tolerate giving away a valuable draft pick. Joe Montana played pretty well in Kansas City and Vinny Testaverde had a long career for different teams, it can happen.
2. The new Redskins offense. Every WCO is not the same, Favre would be a freewheeler and an improviser, that is what makes him great, Jim Zorn lays down the patterns and Brett finds the open guys, yes Jason Campbell played in a variation of the WCO, in college four years ago.
3. The old Redskins offense. Having only Santana, Antwaan and Chris Cooley has been sufficient for the Redskins the past three seasons (two for Antwaan) for their style of play. Those guys can catch and the Redskins would be fine just with those three. With Zorn’s new offense, bringing in new guys cannot hurt. If it is a meritocracy on the field, once again it will be the veterans catching balls and not the youngsters. As far as the rest, the Redskins are just now, this offseason, for the first time looking at maintaining a team through the draft. That will not pay dividends immediately. That said, this team with a veteran offensive line, veteran skill position players and a mix of veteran play and promising youth on defense is I think pretty much the definition of Win Now before the returns start to decline and the team needs to transition.
4. The Redskins defense. The defense does come back, Greg Blache promoted from within, most defensive positions will be the same players. If you are making a point about the offense, my friend the apple cart is already upset, the remains of all those playbooks from the past four years of Joe Gibbs and the last two of Al Saunders are being spread like mulch by a latino gardener under ornamental trees at Dan Snyder’s mansion. The offense is starting over, the defense has continuity. With Jason, Brett, or anyone else, the defense is in good shape.
5. It’s a tradition. It’s also comic relief.
The value proposition. The Chad Johnson two first round draft picks trade would have been an awful move. That said, the guy is 30, he has five or six seasons left to excel. Brett is 38. Two first round picks for maybe two seasons of Brett would be a mistake, a giant one. This whole thing is premised on Brett being cheap or free.
Jason Campbell is not guaranteed anything in this league or by this team. I want him to succeed, I want the team to succeed. There will be changes around here (the team, not the blog) over time with the transition from Joe Gibbs to Jim Zorn and there is a strong chance the QB position will be a herald of these changes. Jim Zorn is a former QB who is very particular about what he likes and wants to see in a QB. Jason may or may not be that guy. Jim did not pick him, Jim did not train him. Jim has three years to get the team on a winning path and if he thinks Jason Campbell is not the QB to get the team there, Jason is gone one way or another. I hope it does not come to that but it could.
=====Curly R: The Redskins Blog=====
by thatguyben on
Jul 14, 2008 12:13 PM EDT
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Counter point or counter-trey mmmmm?
Damn. You used my own Montana played pretty well in Kansas City point against me. Oh the crushing irony of it all ha ha.
The thing about this is that I actually like Bret Farve a lot. What turns me off about this is It would be an incredible distraction, it would deter developing a young, durable guy with all the tools and it doesn’t seem to fit with the way the team is trying to build.
I love the way we plays and the gunslinger mentality but I don’t want that on the Redskins. It’s like we haven’t even given a fair shot to Campbell (only 20 starts or so) and he’s showing great potential. What makes him great as you say is what makes him lose games for his team. The Packers could’ve been in the Super Bowl but he instead chose to throw a horrible ball to a NY Giant.
You make some good points but I think we should stay the coruse as they say because theres so many positive signs in Campbell. I respect your opinion and don’t envy your position of try to make the point for Farve being a Redskin.
by CptChaosSidekick on
Jul 14, 2008 12:39 PM EDT
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Student body right
I think we agree on more than we do not. For this to happen the right way, many things would have come together at the same time and that is not likely to happen. I would simply advise the team not to dismiss the idea. Yes if it were to happen it would set in motion events affecting Jason Campbell’s career, ones that I think might come to pass in any event for better for for worse with or without Brett Favre.
=====Curly R: The Redskins Blog=====
by thatguyben on
Jul 14, 2008 1:16 PM EDT
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In response to #3
I also want to mention the Colts, who of their starters this coming year, only TWO were not drafted by them, Lilja (LG) and Vinatieri. The Redskins downfall has often been ignoring this and brining in pricey free agents.
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by MrNFL on
Jul 14, 2008 12:58 PM EDT
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Redskins draft
It is not exactly a secret that the Redskins have not been a team seriously concerned with building and maintaining a team through the draft. And when they have had picks, those picks often do not even make the team.
If there is any turning of the corner, it started now, this year with this draft. We will see how many of these players make the team, how many of them can contribute immediately and how the team drafts next year.
=====Curly R: The Redskins Blog=====
by thatguyben on
Jul 14, 2008 1:19 PM EDT
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Daniel Snyder Redskins or Daniel Snyder Redskins
Daniel Snyder the team owner who always attempts to make a big splash to win the superbowl with his beloved Washington Redskins. He’s tried everything from buying a defense(See Defensive “star” Free agent signings) to buying a high scoring offense (see supposed Offensive Free agent signings and top offensive minded college coach). To the hire of the Hall-of-Fame icon Joe Gibbs.
Nothing has worked to gain the Daniel Snyder beloved Washington Redskins a Superbowl win! The hire of the now unretired Brett Farve would continue in the Daniel Snyder Washington Redskins attempt of buying a Superbowl. So, obviously it’s going to happen…Well then I read from a top shelf blogger and fellow Redskin Fan how the Daniel Snyder Redskins with Vinny at his side may be going to a different philosophy one that will build a winning team, one that would hire a head coach who has never been a head coach, the way to build a team instilled by the HOF coach to develop depth and keep “core redskins” a program which
So if this year’s draft is any indication, the Redskins have improved in one area already, retaining and even increasing the number of draft picks available to the team. No expensive trades involving a veteran to be signed to a large deal in exchange for picks going away, the types of deals that have been the stock in trade for the Redskins over Dan Snyder’s rule. As such almost of a necessity this policy of keeping and increasing the number of draft picks seems to imply the team is sticking with its roster, signing its own free agents and spending conservatively in the market to fill real needs. If the currency of draft picks is not needed to facilitate deals then it can be retained and parlayed into additional picks, as the Redskins demonstrated in April.
And I guess if you leave the barn door open and shut it after all the failures, then you should just go ahead and re-open the door because it’s easier to blog about the stupidity of it all then “nothing”
Now after eight years of setting the market on top drawer players in free agency suddenly the Redskins are getting football religion, the team realizes simply paying the most for whoever is top rated that year may be way to stay in the news in April but is not the way to build a Super Bowl team. If this is Vinny’s influence, if this is him making his push back on GI Joe Dan Snyder then it’s a good start and we’ll see if it holds up. The reality is it is a pretty weak offseason for top drawer free agent talent. That the Redskins are even just pretending not to be every agent’s wet dream when it comes to leverage with players’ current teams is progress.
The weak offseason has changed, lets hope the Daniel Snyder Redskins are not pretending as a wise blogger stated above.
Coach Gibbs is still the greatest, Hail to the Redskins but stay away from Brett Farve!
The new front office commitment in the draft and free agency as stated by the “The Curly R: Blogger” makes a lot of sense…Ben?Ben!
by dr WNC on Jul 14, 2008 6:52 PM EDT 0 recs
It does seem impetuous to acquire Brett
However I do not think Brett Favre for two seasons is incompatible with the idea of building a team. Brett Favre <> Jeff George.
The Redskins are already two for two on the futuremeter this year, retaining their own free agents and drafting smartly.
Right now with this team you have a confluence of three factors: a new coach, a developing quarterback and a solid veteran roster.
One perhaps obvious goal for a football team would be to maximize the efficacy of the first, minimize the learning curve of the second and maximize the output of the third.
Take away the developing quarterback factor and you have a less volatile output.
I’m no Dan Snyder disciple, if I ever make a quote win now unquote argument you can be pretty certain I came about it on my own. This could work.
=====Curly R: The Redskins Blog=====
by thatguyben on
Jul 14, 2008 8:34 PM EDT
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Truth stated in fact but what about the heart
Brett Farve < >Jeff George or Jason Campbell or even 20 some starting active QBs, but it’s about heart. Brett played with heart, has a great deal of heart and would be a benefit this year. I recall your posts in the past not as a slight but as a compliment to good writing. I may be unable to write effectively most of the time, with spelling that makes it appear as if I’m 10 but the mind is sharp and clear, and it remembers…specifically it remembers good posts and thoughts…but enough of my effort to have you write here more often, means a little less “clicking for me”.
Heart: Brett Farve defined it and could bring it to the Redskins for one year, if a stretch two years but then what? As a Redskin fan I want a competitive team every year, where my Heart can hope with a play-off run which could be a superbowl. I’m not about winning it all, I want a team which strives to win it all each year.
I have given Dan Snyder the benefit of the doubt, because he was trying to win, but his Fantasy Football ways were not working and he needs to change, this year he (they) took a step in that direction, and with Jason Campbell the Redskins have a chance. My heart says the team can be something special this year and next year with Jason Campbell at QB, lets give it a ride and leave Brett for someone else…that’s all I’m saying and it’s what the Curly R said in several posts when other High profile potential Free agents where lurking…
by dr WNC on
Jul 14, 2008 9:34 PM EDT
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Thanks
I understood your compliment, and very much appreciated it, I wanted to be sure that if Dan Snyder and I happened to agree on something wacky that it’s not because I think he is chock full of good ideas.
You are absolutely right about Brett in the short term, then what? I can also tell you then what.
The offensive line, already averaging 32 years old will be 35 years old and all still under contract, contracts that may be more expensive and cap friendly to cuts. Clinton Portis will have two more years of city miles on him. Sure the Redskins are set at receiver and tight end with some prospects on the line. That team needs to get born and come together. Jason Campbell or no Jason Campbell, by 2010 the Redskins will look different on offense.
Jason’s awsum but he’s not going to run the table this year, as a Redskins fan with Jason I am looking at a guy trying to get comfortable and keep his confidence for the whole season, at best a half season intro and a half season of getting it.
Maybe I am wrong and these guys will surprise me.
In light of that my argument is simple: DO IT NOW.
=====Curly R: The Redskins Blog=====
by thatguyben on
Jul 14, 2008 11:20 PM EDT
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I'm going to be posting some things
but will keep this bumped to the top of the front page, because I want to see more discussion generated on this poitnt. It might all turn out to be moot if the Packers play Brett dirty (by not releasing, which I think is possible) but if they don’t, it will be the big story this offseason and I see no reason why the Redskins would refuse to at least consider the proposition.
by Skin Patrol on Jul 14, 2008 8:14 PM EDT 0 recs
no way
no way, we r finally getting our chemistry right and the last thing we need is a starting quarterback controversy. and more importantly is we r the washington redskins, we dont need a brett farve to win we just need clinton n ladell take the load and jason to run the offense , we dont need him to break any records
by NFC on Jul 15, 2008 2:44 AM EDT 0 recs
Chemistry right?
Redskins fans need to wake up, I know it seems like it has been a long offseason, here is what is off about this team’s chemistry:
1. New head coach. Jim Zorn has replaced Joe Gibbs. Roll that around in your head for a few. Then consider this: Jim Zorn has never called a play in the NFL, never been a coordinator, never been a head coach. Uncertainty factor goes through the ceiling.
2. New offense. Two years of Joe Gibbs’ power running, two years of the Al Saunders variant, both sourced from the same headwater: Don Coryell. The new west coast offense variant has all new terminology, all new timing, all new patterns. This is a veteran Redskins team used to playing a certain way, adopting this new offense I do not assume will be quick or automatic.
The Redskins play on the road against the Cowboys and Giants in the first four games, in fact the Skins play the national season opener on the road against the defending Super Bowl champs. If the Redskins open the season 1-3 then we will be having different conversations about chemistry.
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by thatguyben on
Jul 15, 2008 10:38 AM EDT
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Or if they are 1-3 but competitive
Then the chemistry and Veteran Redskin team will ensure the team does not implode, who was that last NFC east team to start the season 0-2 then be at the brink of a 0-3 start, only to turn the season around.
Jim Zorn called offensive plays as a quarterback on the Field in the NFL, why does this not count for anything in his play calling abilities. Yes it is an unknown.
Could it be that the reverse is true the Redskins were built for the WCO and not the Power running of Joe or the variant of Al…and the terminology is just that terminology
Playing the Giants at home, while being talked about as a tough game is actually not so bad considering the 2007 home record, and the changes to the team from the superbowl winning team.
by dr WNC on
Jul 15, 2008 12:19 PM EDT
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We are in agreement
These guys are pros and may surprise us. Jim Zorn is there for a reason, I think he knows his stuff.
=====Curly R: The Redskins Blog=====
by thatguyben on
Jul 15, 2008 12:47 PM EDT
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